Re: new 2.3
Interviewed by CNN on 01/08/2011 15:31, Pat Connors told the world: Okay, I just got home after a week away and see there is another new version of SM. I am still on 2.0.14 and didn't update to 2.2 because of all the complaints. Now we have 2.3 and more complaints. I really don't know what to do. I like the version I am using. I am using Windows 7 which seems to complicate all new program updates. Just wondering how others using Win 7 have managed with the new update. I'm using Win7 x64 and had *no* problems with the update -- just let it update automatically and it did it all by itself. In fact, let me point out that the Data Manager now works correctly, so in my book at least, the new version is a clear improvement. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my scrying pool. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.3 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Pat Connors a écrit : Okay, I just got home after a week away and see there is another new version of SM. I am still on 2.0.14 and didn't update to 2.2 because of all the complaints. Now we have 2.3 and more complaints. I really don't know what to do. I like the version I am using. I am using Windows 7 which seems to complicate all new program updates. Just wondering how others using Win 7 have managed with the new update. Well, FTR, I had no problem whatsoever going from 2.0.14 to 2.2 on both WinXP and Win7. Everything went like a charm, all my add-ons but one were compatible (and the one left isn't critical, just convenient) and most important, this new version solved a bug that was very annoying to me (the password boxes that weren't sequential anymore in Mail). So all in all, I'm a very happy camper. S. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
MCBastos wrote: I'm using Win7 x64 and had *no* problems with the update This was my experience. I did notice a couple oddities like the right-click menu going full screen height. But the speed improvement in the email windows alone was worth it for me. Some of the louder people on the list here have pretty specific needs that the vast majority won't be affected by. I think the most of the problem reside around addon issues with the version number increases. If one has a ton of addons that they depend on heavily, they may want to make a copy of their profile before they do the upgrade to be safe. -- Mike ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
On 2011-08-08 10:17, sean nathan bean wrote: Pat Connors sent me the following:: Okay, I just got home after a week away and see there is another new version of SM. I am still on 2.0.14 and didn't update to 2.2 because of all the complaints. Now we have 2.3 and more complaints. I really don't know what to do. I like the version I am using. I am using Windows 7 which seems to complicate all new program updates. Just wondering how others using Win 7 have managed with the new update. my two cents: SeaMonkey 2.1 and 2.2 have been virtually flawless...there may have been a few niggling details which irked me personally... but none rose to the level of making me decide to remain in the insecure 2.0.x series... Sorry to disagree with you, but I found 2.1 and 2.2 to be virtually useless because they were so badly flawed. Add the irreversible database changes to this and I'm not even going to try 2.3. I am very sad that SeaMonkey has chosen to follow on with the FireFox release program (I understand that SM is inextricably tied to FF) rather than just maintaining the 2.0 tree. I (and many others) believe the FF 6-week release cycle is an extremely bad idea and I have no intention of going that route. Despite being a Netscape/Mozilla Suite/SeaMonkey user for almost 20 years, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ditch Mozilla in all its forms and go a different direction. Since I have a large collection of tools I've developed for hacking various things about Mozilla, I do not do this lightly. To put it bluntly, I am not interested in a SeaMonkey that is nothing more than FireFox and Thunderbird launched simultaneously -- if SM can't offer something other than this, there's no reason for it to exist. For me, it is far more important that I have something that is stable and has a stable database format that I can develop my own tools for than it is to support the latest eye-candy. The database format for bookmarks and mail has been almost unchanged for that entire 20 years -- until now. I haven't decided which browser+email I will be switching to since considerable research will be required, but it has become sadly obvious to me that it is necessary to change. Unless, that is, someone is willing to fork SeaMonkey at the 2.0.14 level and maintain it strictly with security bug fixes. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
A.Nonny Mouse wrote: On 2011-08-08 10:17, sean nathan bean wrote: Pat Connors sent me the following:: Okay, I just got home after a week away and see there is another new version of SM. I am still on 2.0.14 and didn't update to 2.2 because of all the complaints. Now we have 2.3 and more complaints. I really don't know what to do. I like the version I am using. I am using Windows 7 which seems to complicate all new program updates. Just wondering how others using Win 7 have managed with the new update. my two cents: SeaMonkey 2.1 and 2.2 have been virtually flawless...there may have been a few niggling details which irked me personally... but none rose to the level of making me decide to remain in the insecure 2.0.x series... Sorry to disagree with you, but I found 2.1 and 2.2 to be virtually useless because they were so badly flawed. Add the irreversible database changes to this and I'm not even going to try 2.3. I am very sad that SeaMonkey has chosen to follow on with the FireFox release program (I understand that SM is inextricably tied to FF) rather than just maintaining the 2.0 tree. I (and many others) believe the FF 6-week release cycle is an extremely bad idea and I have no intention of going that route. Despite being a Netscape/Mozilla Suite/SeaMonkey user for almost 20 years, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ditch Mozilla in all its forms and go a different direction. Since I have a large collection of tools I've developed for hacking various things about Mozilla, I do not do this lightly. To put it bluntly, I am not interested in a SeaMonkey that is nothing more than FireFox and Thunderbird launched simultaneously -- if SM can't offer something other than this, there's no reason for it to exist. For me, it is far more important that I have something that is stable and has a stable database format that I can develop my own tools for than it is to support the latest eye-candy. The database format for bookmarks and mail has been almost unchanged for that entire 20 years -- until now. I haven't decided which browser+email I will be switching to since considerable research will be required, but it has become sadly obvious to me that it is necessary to change. Unless, that is, someone is willing to fork SeaMonkey at the 2.0.14 level and maintain it strictly with security bug fixes. Sorry to see you go. Be sure to post back with what browser+email program you switched to. SM2.0.14 is the end of the line for the 2.0 version. I'm not that crazy about certain aspects of SM2.2 but I've learned to make it work for me. -- JD.. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Radical change in topic. Now a newsreader Q. was (Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: The link you provide above takes me to a google groups login page. All my tries to retrieve previous articles by clicking on Message-IDs or the numbers assigned them in the References: list are directed by SM to the google groups login page. When did you folks begin doing that (even for articles listed as present on the Mozilla News server)? I don't get a login page, I just get the post Chris intended to cite: Curious. How come your attempt to reach that URL goes through, while mine goes to login page? Curious. Do you get an automatic logon to google groups? Oh and thanks for the copy of the article. Welcome. No, I never get a login, automatic or otherwise. The page just comes up. Perhaps you're blocking a cookie it wants to set? -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Radical change in topic. Now a newsreader Q. was (Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 11-08-11 12:37 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Looking at this posting, I see that there was a follow up posting by PhillipJones to my cynical posting I wish I could writhe ... ... pooper scooper brigade. But I can not find PhillipJoness' posting at Mozilla News. It used to be that clicking on the Message-ID of the appropriate message in the References: list would go out and retrieve the message. Now it don't do it no more. Help! How do I find and retrieve such articles/postings now? What is SM doing now? What are the options, and what do they mean? I removed it. See http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.seamonkey/msg/e1b618a1563e79a3. Do you mean that you censored, removed, deleted, PhillipJoness' article from the Mozilla News server? If so, Why? The link you provide above takes me to a google groups login page. All my tries to retrieve previous articles by clicking on Message-IDs or the numbers assigned them in the References: list are directed by SM to the google groups login page. When did you folks begin doing that (even for articles listed as present on the Mozilla News server)? I don't get a login page, I just get the post Chris intended to cite: Chris Ilias View profile More options Jun 15, 4:47 pm On 11-06-15 2:13 PM, PhillipJones wrote: That's typical of developers. If they don't use it, whether user it, it gone be daxxxed. Phillip, prejudice comments like that are not welcome here. In the past, you've spread a lot of misinformation about developers, Mozilla, SeaMonkey, and me, and smeared them with bigoted comments. Enough is enough. From now on, if you post an accusation against Mozilla, the SeaMonkey council, or developers, *without backing it up* , your post will be removed. I was not privy to that comment public or private. Fine if he wants to play it that way. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Radical change in topic. Now a newsreader Q. was (Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
NoOp wrote: On 08/11/2011 08:02 PM, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 11-08-11 12:37 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Looking at this posting, I see that there was a follow up posting by PhillipJones to my cynical posting I wish I could writhe ... ... pooper scooper brigade. But I can not find PhillipJoness' posting at Mozilla News. It used to be that clicking on the Message-ID of the appropriate message in the References: list would go out and retrieve the message. Now it don't do it no more. Help! How do I find and retrieve such articles/postings now? What is SM doing now? What are the options, and what do they mean? I removed it. See http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.seamonkey/msg/e1b618a1563e79a3. Do you mean that you censored, removed, deleted, PhillipJoness' article from the Mozilla News server? If so, Why? The link you provide above takes me to a google groups login page. All my tries to retrieve previous articles by clicking on Message-IDs or the numbers assigned them in the References: list are directed by SM to the google groups login page. When did you folks begin doing that (even for articles listed as present on the Mozilla News server)? I don't get a login page, I just get the post Chris intended to cite: Chris Ilias View profile More options Jun 15, 4:47 pm On 11-06-15 2:13 PM, PhillipJones wrote: That's typical of developers. If they don't use it, whether user it, it gone be daxxxed. Phillip, prejudice comments like that are not welcome here. In the past, you've spread a lot of misinformation about developers, Mozilla, SeaMonkey, and me, and smeared them with bigoted comments. Enough is enough. From now on, if you post an accusation against Mozilla, the SeaMonkey council, or developers, *without backing it up* , your post will be removed. And the full thread is here: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.mozilla.seamonkey.user/25595 I reread all my Comments. Didn't see any That justified removal. But, If they wants to play it that way. So be it. looks like a clear cut case of not allowing free speech. I based all my comments on my personal experiences. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Interviewed by CNN on 12/08/2011 00:34, NoOp told the world: Thank goodness you don't use FoxNews... I chose CNN for maximum recognition both here in Brazil and abroad. FoxNews is available on cable here, but it's still pretty obscure -- nobody I know watches it. Their political rhetoric doesn't really play well outside the U.S. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my Motorola StarTAC. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Radical change in topic. Now a newsreader Q. was (Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: The link you provide above takes me to a google groups login page. All my tries to retrieve previous articles by clicking on Message-IDs or the numbers assigned them in the References: list are directed by SM to the google groups login page. When did you folks begin doing that (even for articles listed as present on the Mozilla News server)? I don't get a login page, I just get the post Chris intended to cite: Curious. How come your attempt to reach that URL goes through, while mine goes to login page? Curious. Do you get an automatic logon to google groups? Oh and thanks for the copy of the article. Welcome. No, I never get a login, automatic or otherwise. The page just comes up. Perhaps you're blocking a cookie it wants to set? Oh wonderfull :-( How do I check? Under Preferences privacy cookies , I accept all cookies. But perhaps it's not a cookie setting. It's flounder, flounder, and flail in the dark maze of options? -- Rostyk Ps. Perhaps master Ilias can offer some concrete debug assistance. :-) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
On 08/12/2011 07:56 AM, MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 12/08/2011 00:34, NoOp told the world: Thank goodness you don't use FoxNews... I chose CNN for maximum recognition both here in Brazil and abroad. FoxNews is available on cable here, but it's still pretty obscure -- nobody I know watches it. Their political rhetoric doesn't really play well outside the U.S. Change it to 'FireFoxNews'. :-) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Radical change in topic. Now a newsreader Q. was (Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
On 11-08-12 12:06 AM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: I removed it. See http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.seamonkey/msg/e1b618a1563e79a3. Do you mean that you censored, removed, deleted, PhillipJones' article from the Mozilla News server? If so, Why? Yes, I removed it from the Mozilla news server, because of Phillip's misinformation like Firefox running itself into the ground, and Mozilla demanding the SeaMonkey council what to do. Justin, Robert, and everyone else shouldn't have to waste their time constantly correcting Phillip. It takes focus and energy away from SeaMonkey support. The link you provide above takes me to a google groups login page. All my tries to retrieve previous articles by clicking on Message-IDs or the numbers assigned them in the References: list are directed by SM to the google groups login page. When did you folks begin doing that (even for articles listed as present on the Mozilla News server)? I don't get a login page, I just get the post Chris intended to cite: Curious. How come your attempt to reach that URL goes through, while mine goes to login page? Curious. Do you get an automatic logon to google groups? Oh and thanks for the copy of the article. If I open a new browser profile having not logged into any sites including google, the URL takes me to the post. So I think perhaps you were already logged in to a Google account for another service (like Gmail) and Google wanted to know if you want to use that account in Groups. That's my guess. It's a Google issue. Chris Ilias View profile More options Jun 15, 4:47 pm On 11-06-15 2:13 PM, PhillipJones wrote: That's typical of developers. If they don't use it, whether user it, it gone be daxxxed. Phillip, prejudice comments like that are not welcome here. In the past, you've spread a lot of misinformation about developers, Mozilla, SeaMonkey, and me, and smeared them with bigoted comments. Enough is enough. From now on, if you post an accusation against Mozilla, the SeaMonkey council, or developers, *without backing it up* , your post will be removed. I thought that master Ilias was pointing me to a copy of PhillipJones' missing article. The part of MR. Jones' post quoted in Mr. Calleks' posting wasn't at all unduly critical of Mozilla and SeaMonkey, and not even mentioning master Ilias Does master Ilias have a grudge feud with Jones, and is playing tin god ? and does he do this with the authority and approval of the SeaMonkey council or on his own whim? See http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/cancellation.html and http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.governance/msg/bac6c88e0dae1fe6 (Sorry, I couldn't find the message on a different archive, but try visiting that URL in a different profile) This discussion itself is OT. If you'd like to reply to this message, please email me with a valid return address, thanks. Replies to this message posted in the newsgroup will be removed. -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca Newsgroup moderator ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
On Aug 5, 3:17 am, Justin Wood (Callek) cal...@gmail.com wrote: Okay, I just got home after a week away and see there is another new version of SM. I am still on 2.0.14 and didn't update to 2.2 because of all the complaints. Now we have 2.3 and more complaints. I really don't know what to do. I like the version I am using. I am using Windows 7 which seems to complicate all new program updates. Just wondering how others using Win 7 have managed with the new update. My largest point is that 2.2 has MUCH better windows 7 support than any earlier version. SeaMonkey 2.0 had no win7 support at all. No support? What are you talking about? I had no problems with SM2.x on my 64-bit W7 HPE machine since December 2009. No support is different than, miraculously you are not noticing any issues. Oh. Also these security issues can cause many other problems, malware, viruses, data integrity, among other things. Security is not a joke. Which possible security issues with the current v2.0.14? We're working on getting newer Thunderbird and SeaMonkey lists, but see the and newer and 3.6 versions of Firefox athttp://www.mozilla.org/security/known-vulnerabilities/for starters. Thanks. Please kindly let us know when the lists are posted. :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
MCBastos schrieb: Then, the third thing: Webkit is a smaller, more focused project than Gecko. Nowadays, even that is a myth. While Webkit doesn't understand all the same standards as full as Gecko does, it grew its own networking library etc. over time because they learned the same lessons Mozilla learned years ago. And it even uses more memory than Gecko nowadays. The cleanness and leanness of Webkit are nothing more than a myth nowadays. Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Radical change in topic. Now a newsreader Q. was (Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: PhillipJones wrote: Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 09/08/2011 21:18, Rufus told the world: ...it was a suggestion for a *new* SM product from the *SM* team because someone posed a question - and not even that particular product, it's an *example*...crap, can't anybody around here think *conceptually*? ...are you suggesting that the already-too-small developing team we DO have in Seamonkey take time out of the project to develop an *entirely new product*? It's $ :-) and $$$ can buy people ... I wish I could write that you're so busy fighting the alligators snapping on your tails that you don't have time to drain the swamp. But then y'all seem to be charging forth (the image of the elephant herd) reworking FF+TB into SM , and maybe spending a little time with the broom and pooper scooper brigade. Rather than being locked into Firefox running itself into the ground and following suit. I suggest the developers at SeaMonkey say goodbye to Mozilla and switch to web-kit engine. Then you can work at a slower pace and fix bugs and provide something users want. rather than what Mozilla demands you do. Not going to happen, sorry. Looking at this posting, I see that there was a follow up posting by PhillipJones to my cynical posting I wish I could writhe ... ... pooper scooper brigade. But I can not find PhillipJoness' posting at Mozilla News. It used to be that clicking on the Message-ID of the appropriate message in the References: list would go out and retrieve the message. Now it don't do it no more. Help! How do I find and retrieve such articles/postings now? What is SM doing now? What are the options, and what do they mean? -- Rostyk ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Radical change in topic. Now a newsreader Q. was (Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
On 11-08-11 12:37 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Looking at this posting, I see that there was a follow up posting by PhillipJones to my cynical posting I wish I could writhe ... ... pooper scooper brigade. But I can not find PhillipJoness' posting at Mozilla News. It used to be that clicking on the Message-ID of the appropriate message in the References: list would go out and retrieve the message. Now it don't do it no more. Help! How do I find and retrieve such articles/postings now? What is SM doing now? What are the options, and what do they mean? I removed it. See http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.seamonkey/msg/e1b618a1563e79a3. -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca Newsgroup moderator ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 10/08/2011 16:45, Justin Wood (Callek) told the world: PhillipJones wrote: [...] I strongly suspect he wasn't interviewed by CNN, and in the end, he didn't email the world. All he did was to email somebody on this list. Somewhat complicated at times, but hardly as earthshakingly important as suggested. keith whaley ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Radical change in topic. Now a newsreader Q. was (Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Chris Ilias wrote: On 11-08-11 12:37 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Looking at this posting, I see that there was a follow up posting by PhillipJones to my cynical posting I wish I could writhe ... ... pooper scooper brigade. But I can not find PhillipJoness' posting at Mozilla News. It used to be that clicking on the Message-ID of the appropriate message in the References: list would go out and retrieve the message. Now it don't do it no more. Help! How do I find and retrieve such articles/postings now? What is SM doing now? What are the options, and what do they mean? I removed it. See http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.seamonkey/msg/e1b618a1563e79a3. Do you mean that you censored, removed, deleted, PhillipJoness' article from the Mozilla News server? If so, Why? The link you provide above takes me to a google groups login page. All my tries to retrieve previous articles by clicking on Message-IDs or the numbers assigned them in the References: list are directed by SM to the google groups login page. When did you folks begin doing that (even for articles listed as present on the Mozilla News server)? -- Rostyk ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Radical change in topic. Now a newsreader Q. was (Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 11-08-11 12:37 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Looking at this posting, I see that there was a follow up posting by PhillipJones to my cynical posting I wish I could writhe ... ... pooper scooper brigade. But I can not find PhillipJoness' posting at Mozilla News. It used to be that clicking on the Message-ID of the appropriate message in the References: list would go out and retrieve the message. Now it don't do it no more. Help! How do I find and retrieve such articles/postings now? What is SM doing now? What are the options, and what do they mean? I removed it. See http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.seamonkey/msg/e1b618a1563e79a3. Do you mean that you censored, removed, deleted, PhillipJoness' article from the Mozilla News server? If so, Why? The link you provide above takes me to a google groups login page. All my tries to retrieve previous articles by clicking on Message-IDs or the numbers assigned them in the References: list are directed by SM to the google groups login page. When did you folks begin doing that (even for articles listed as present on the Mozilla News server)? Because Chris is Chris. nough said. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Keith Whaley wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 10/08/2011 16:45, Justin Wood (Callek) told the world: PhillipJones wrote: [...] I strongly suspect he wasn't interviewed by CNN, and in the end, he didn't email the world. All he did was to email somebody on this list. Somewhat complicated at times, but hardly as earthshakingly important as suggested. keith whaley Obviously Chris is unaware that FireFox 2.3 is about 4 years old or more. The person meant obviously SeaMonkey 2.3. but typed FF 2.3 -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Interviewed by CNN on 11/08/2011 16:42, Keith Whaley told the world: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 10/08/2011 16:45, Justin Wood (Callek) told the world: PhillipJones wrote: [...] I strongly suspect he wasn't interviewed by CNN, and in the end, he didn't email the world. All he did was to email somebody on this list. Somewhat complicated at times, but hardly as earthshakingly important as suggested. That's my standard reply quote-header. I customized it to make it a bit funnier. IT'S-A-JOKE. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my Olivetti Praxis 20. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Radical change in topic. Now a newsreader Q. was (Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 11-08-11 12:37 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Looking at this posting, I see that there was a follow up posting by PhillipJones to my cynical posting I wish I could writhe ... ... pooper scooper brigade. But I can not find PhillipJoness' posting at Mozilla News. It used to be that clicking on the Message-ID of the appropriate message in the References: list would go out and retrieve the message. Now it don't do it no more. Help! How do I find and retrieve such articles/postings now? What is SM doing now? What are the options, and what do they mean? I removed it. See http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.seamonkey/msg/e1b618a1563e79a3. Do you mean that you censored, removed, deleted, PhillipJoness' article from the Mozilla News server? If so, Why? The link you provide above takes me to a google groups login page. All my tries to retrieve previous articles by clicking on Message-IDs or the numbers assigned them in the References: list are directed by SM to the google groups login page. When did you folks begin doing that (even for articles listed as present on the Mozilla News server)? I don't get a login page, I just get the post Chris intended to cite: Chris Ilias View profile More options Jun 15, 4:47 pm On 11-06-15 2:13 PM, PhillipJones wrote: That's typical of developers. If they don't use it, whether user it, it gone be daxxxed. Phillip, prejudice comments like that are not welcome here. In the past, you've spread a lot of misinformation about developers, Mozilla, SeaMonkey, and me, and smeared them with bigoted comments. Enough is enough. From now on, if you post an accusation against Mozilla, the SeaMonkey council, or developers, *without backing it up* , your post will be removed. -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca Newsgroup moderator [end quote] -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
On 08/11/2011 07:10 PM, MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 11/08/2011 16:42, Keith Whaley told the world: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 10/08/2011 16:45, Justin Wood (Callek) told the world: PhillipJones wrote: [...] I strongly suspect he wasn't interviewed by CNN, and in the end, he didn't email the world. All he did was to email somebody on this list. Somewhat complicated at times, but hardly as earthshakingly important as suggested. That's my standard reply quote-header. I customized it to make it a bit funnier. IT'S-A-JOKE. Thank goodness you don't use FoxNews... ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Radical change in topic. Now a newsreader Q. was (Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 11-08-11 12:37 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Looking at this posting, I see that there was a follow up posting by PhillipJones to my cynical posting I wish I could writhe ... ... pooper scooper brigade. But I can not find PhillipJoness' posting at Mozilla News. It used to be that clicking on the Message-ID of the appropriate message in the References: list would go out and retrieve the message. Now it don't do it no more. Help! How do I find and retrieve such articles/postings now? What is SM doing now? What are the options, and what do they mean? I removed it. See http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.seamonkey/msg/e1b618a1563e79a3. Do you mean that you censored, removed, deleted, PhillipJones' article from the Mozilla News server? If so, Why? The link you provide above takes me to a google groups login page. All my tries to retrieve previous articles by clicking on Message-IDs or the numbers assigned them in the References: list are directed by SM to the google groups login page. When did you folks begin doing that (even for articles listed as present on the Mozilla News server)? I don't get a login page, I just get the post Chris intended to cite: Curious. How come your attempt to reach that URL goes through, while mine goes to login page? Curious. Do you get an automatic logon to google groups? Oh and thanks for the copy of the article. Chris Ilias View profile More options Jun 15, 4:47 pm On 11-06-15 2:13 PM, PhillipJones wrote: That's typical of developers. If they don't use it, whether user it, it gone be daxxxed. Phillip, prejudice comments like that are not welcome here. In the past, you've spread a lot of misinformation about developers, Mozilla, SeaMonkey, and me, and smeared them with bigoted comments. Enough is enough. From now on, if you post an accusation against Mozilla, the SeaMonkey council, or developers, *without backing it up* , your post will be removed. I thought that master Ilias was pointing me to a copy of PhillipJones' missing article. The part of MR. Jones' post quoted in Mr. Calleks' posting wasn't at all unduly critical of Mozilla and SeaMonkey, and not even mentioning master Ilias Does master Ilias have a grudge feud with Jones, and is playing tin god ? and does he do this with the authority and approval of the SeaMonkey council or on his own whim? -- Rostyk ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 09/08/2011 21:18, Rufus told the world: ...it was a suggestion for a *new* SM product from the *SM* team because someone posed a question - and not even that particular product, it's an *example*...crap, can't anybody around here think *conceptually*? ...are you suggesting that the already-too-small developing team we DO have in Seamonkey take time out of the project to develop an *entirely new product*? It's $ :-) and $$$ can buy people ... I wish I could write that you're so busy fighting the alligators snapping on your tails that you don't have time to drain the swamp. But then y'all seem to be charging forth (the image of the elephant herd) reworking FF+TB into SM , and maybe spending a little time with the broom and pooper scooper brigade. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 09/08/2011 21:18, Rufus told the world: ...it was a suggestion for a *new* SM product from the *SM* team because someone posed a question - and not even that particular product, it's an *example*...crap, can't anybody around here think *conceptually*? ...are you suggesting that the already-too-small developing team we DO have in Seamonkey take time out of the project to develop an *entirely new product*? It's $ :-) and $$$ can buy people ... I wish I could write that you're so busy fighting the alligators snapping on your tails that you don't have time to drain the swamp. But then y'all seem to be charging forth (the image of the elephant herd) reworking FF+TB into SM , and maybe spending a little time with the broom and pooper scooper brigade. Rather than being locked into Firefox running itself into the ground and following suit. I suggest the developers at SeaMonkey say goodbye to Mozilla and switch to web-kit engine. Then you can work at a slower pace and fix bugs and provide something users want. rather than what Mozilla demands you do. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
PhillipJones wrote: Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 09/08/2011 21:18, Rufus told the world: ...it was a suggestion for a *new* SM product from the *SM* team because someone posed a question - and not even that particular product, it's an *example*...crap, can't anybody around here think *conceptually*? ...are you suggesting that the already-too-small developing team we DO have in Seamonkey take time out of the project to develop an *entirely new product*? It's $ :-) and $$$ can buy people ... I wish I could write that you're so busy fighting the alligators snapping on your tails that you don't have time to drain the swamp. But then y'all seem to be charging forth (the image of the elephant herd) reworking FF+TB into SM , and maybe spending a little time with the broom and pooper scooper brigade. Rather than being locked into Firefox running itself into the ground and following suit. I suggest the developers at SeaMonkey say goodbye to Mozilla and switch to web-kit engine. Then you can work at a slower pace and fix bugs and provide something users want. rather than what Mozilla demands you do. Not going to happen, sorry. -- ~Justin Wood (Callek) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 10/08/2011 16:45, Justin Wood (Callek) told the world: PhillipJones wrote: Rather than being locked into Firefox running itself into the ground and following suit. I suggest the developers at SeaMonkey say goodbye to Mozilla and switch to web-kit engine. Then you can work at a slower pace and fix bugs and provide something users want. rather than what Mozilla demands you do. Not going to happen, sorry. People keep coming back with this switch to Webkit idea like it was a real option, it was easy and it was some sort of magic bullet. It is none of those. First of all, you have to consider that Seamonkey is written in XUL. XUL was created specifically to be a cross-platform user interface development language/environment. The only way to run XUL is on Gecko. There are NO other implementations. So, to port Seamonkey to another platform means rewriting it from scratch. Now comes the second thing: the mail client. Which currently is related to Thunderbird, which also runs on XUL and Gecko. So besides the browser, there is the need to either rewrite the entire mail client or to find a way to integrate a separate, existing client which evolved independently of Webkit browsers. Then, the third thing: Webkit is a smaller, more focused project than Gecko. Meaning it's an HTML rendering engine, and just that. Gecko is a much more ambitious and complex project. This means Webkit is comparatively small and lean. But it also mean that Webkit has nothing that comes even in the same *continent* regarding running an UI. You have to write the UI using native widgets. So that project of rewriting Seamonkey's UI? Now it is *three* separate projects: one for Windows, one for Mac and one for Linux. To sum up... the amount of work involved in porting Seamonkey to Webkit is staggering, several times bigger then to keep updating and improving the current software on Gecko. And the gains, frankly? I expect to be small to nonexistent. Gecko *is* a fine browser engine. Webkit is currently better than Gecko in a number of metrics, but not by that much, and Gecko is improving fast too. But there are points where Gecko is ahead of Webkit -- witness the recent WebGL demos, which run fine on Firefox 5 and Seamonkey 2.2 (current releases), but not on Chrome 13. The losses, though, would be huge. First of all, forget the current extension ecosystem. It would no longer be compatible, plain and simple. To be able to use Chrome extensions, Seamonkey would have to forgo a lot of its own design roots and get very close to the Chrome design. Worse, we would be talking about a few years before having a production-class product. In that time, the current Seamonkey would be languishing without improvements, becoming more and more obsolete and bleeding users. The final product, if it ever saw the light of the day, would look nothing like Seamonkey -- it would be an unholy amalgam of Chromium and some mail client (Evolution, perhaps?), years late, lacking features that Seamonkey has now, less extensible... and no users left by then. I can't imagine a surer way to kill Seamonkey than attempting to move to Webkit. We got to get away from Mozilla and having to following them Lock step. They've all ready Po'd the number one people that use FF by more or less flipping off Businesses. At the rate they are going Mozilla will be just a memory in year or two. Come up with something else. I don't care if it webKit or first aid kit. So long as we have a product we can have something that doesn't break something new every 4-6 weeks. We are being killed with this fast release stuff. tried 2.3.3a and does not do PDF's. Half of my Web site is pdf's I'm have to resort to using Chrome or iCab or Opera to test items I add. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Rufus schrieb: Someone asked for an example of how the SM team could generate some actual revenue...this is one way No, because it's not a product of the SeaMonkey team, but of the Firefox-related teams. It would be their revenue, and they don't need it. Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
On 11-08-07 9:42 PM, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: WLS wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: I'm only saying what I've read here from authoritative sources; the only addition is my judgment half-baked, which reflects many of the opinions voiced here. If you don't like it, speak to the merits of the argument. You need not shoot the messenger. Please cite these authoritative sources. I would happily cull a series of quotes from our developers and other experts, but there doesn't seem to be a way of searching the bodies of messages posted here -- or do you know a solution? 1. Right-click on the newsgroup name, and select Properties. 2. Select the Synchronization tab. 3. Check mark Select this newsgroup for offline use. 4. Click [Download Now]. Let the messages download. 5. Go to Tools--Search_Messages. 6. Check mark Search local system. 7. Enter the search parameters. Note: In addition to Subject and Sender, Body should now be one of the search options. -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca Newsgroup moderator ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Chris Ilias wrote: On 11-08-07 9:42 PM, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: WLS wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: I'm only saying what I've read here from authoritative sources; the only addition is my judgment half-baked, which reflects many of the opinions voiced here. If you don't like it, speak to the merits of the argument. You need not shoot the messenger. Please cite these authoritative sources. I would happily cull a series of quotes from our developers and other experts, but there doesn't seem to be a way of searching the bodies of messages posted here -- or do you know a solution? 1. Right-click on the newsgroup name, and select Properties. 2. Select the Synchronization tab. 3. Check mark Select this newsgroup for offline use. 4. Click [Download Now]. Let the messages download. 5. Go to Tools--Search_Messages. 6. Check mark Search local system. 7. Enter the search parameters. Note: In addition to Subject and Sender, Body should now be one of the search options. I'm gonna have to think about that one. With 63,433 messages in the NG, it'll take awhile even with my fast connection, and I don't often need to do this type of search. Still, thanks for offering the option. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus schrieb: Someone asked for an example of how the SM team could generate some actual revenue...this is one way No, because it's not a product of the SeaMonkey team, but of the Firefox-related teams. It would be their revenue, and they don't need it. Robert Kaiser ...it was a suggestion for a *new* SM product from the *SM* team because someone posed a question - and not even that particular product, it's an *example*...crap, can't anybody around here think *conceptually*? -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Interviewed by CNN on 09/08/2011 12:31, PhillipJones told the world: Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: Okay if that's the case here is one for you . I tried the 2.3.b3 the other day. Just to see if there was improvement. Well PDF still doesn't work though all my plugins work except the one for PDF. (Use a Mac). Well, sorry, I have no idea what's going on with Seamonkey and PDF on Macs (don't have a Mac here to test). But, on the other topic... However despite my transferring over copies of my Bookmarks from 2.0.14 profile to the (everything even the html files) not a single one showed up. I have hundreds (while I don't go to everyone daily I do go to all of them from time to time. So I'm not move to 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4 until PDF from within the browser is addressed and every one of my bookmarks even down to what's in personal Bookmarks come over unscathed. Here's the thing: 2.1 changed the bookmark engine. Now it no longer uses the bookmarks.html as the primary repository -- instead, it uses a SQLite database. Now, if you upgrade your current profile, Seamonkey knows that it has to do the conversion (although it is known to fail once in a while, for still unknown reasons). However, if you just copy the bookmarks.html to an existing SM 2.1 or greater profile, it will not get imported automatically. You have to import it manually from inside the Bookmarks Manager. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my Bandar talking drum. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Interviewed by CNN on 09/08/2011 21:18, Rufus told the world: ...it was a suggestion for a *new* SM product from the *SM* team because someone posed a question - and not even that particular product, it's an *example*...crap, can't anybody around here think *conceptually*? ...are you suggesting that the already-too-small developing team we DO have in Seamonkey take time out of the project to develop an *entirely new product*? -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my Babcom. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 09/08/2011 21:18, Rufus told the world: ...it was a suggestion for a *new* SM product from the *SM* team because someone posed a question - and not even that particular product, it's an *example*...crap, can't anybody around here think *conceptually*? ...are you suggesting that the already-too-small developing team we DO have in Seamonkey take time out of the project to develop an *entirely new product*? You (or somebody) asked how the team could generate revenue - I was suggesting a *way*, and nothing more. It's up to the team as to what they really want to do...personally, I don't think they're at all interested in growing - re: ideas or numbers. But that up to them, in the end. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
WLS wrote: Daniel wrote: WLS wrote: Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: WLS wrote: Ray_Net wrote: WLS wrote: Ray_Net wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 05/08/2011 11:17, Bill Davidsen told the world: Some commercial users have complained that they can't do a QA cycle that often, and according to the reports were told that Firefox is not suitable for business use. I can dig out the link for anyone who hasn't learned to use a search engine, I saw it in either networkworld.com or slashdot. This guy at Ars Technica had a different spin on the issue: http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/06/firefox-update-policy-the-enterprise-is-wrong-not-mozilla.ars/ Where we can read: six week cycle is the goal. Therefore the end-user MUST install a new version each six weeks. He have other things to do This is why he will decide: I will stay on my version for at least one year ... i am not part of an SM testing group. You are a part of any browser testing group whether you want to be or not. Even the most stable releases have bugs, and new security holes are often found that need to be fixed. Some light reading for you if you so choose. http://blog.mozilla.com/channels/2011/07/18/every-six-weeks/ and since Firefox, Thunderbird and SeaMonkey are all Gecko based, this was an interesting read for me. At the end of the article, i read: Comments are closed. http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2011/08/02/extending-our-reach-lets-talk-gecko/ That was written by Mitchell Baker the Chair of the Mozilla Foundation. I still want a crank for my auto ignition, but I had to move on, to that danged remote starter thingy, I agree to start for the future but people need less steps to go to the future ... not a change every six weeks. If you want to miss out on 3D sound visualizers with WebGL and HTML5 Audio, that is your choice. I want all the latest new web innovations, whether I use them or not. I'd post a link to the demo, but it currently works in Firefox only. Come on SM developers get caught up! :) Huh, unless the web app is specifically targetting Firefox and ignoring everyone else, a similar-Gecko-Version SeaMonkey should work for those pure-web demo's. Can you provide a link to what is not working in SeaMonkey that Works in Firefox on a web demo level. ESPECIALLY if it is hosted by mozilla. Thanks, Just tested it in SeaMonkey and it works. Needing a Firefox browser was the author's words not mine. Sorry, I should have checked. Stating you needed a modern Gecko based browser may have been better. Here is the link if anyone wants to view the demo. http://robhawkes.github.com/webgl-html5-audio-visualiser/ Clicking on the link got me Jazz sounding music with a blank screen and Done SeaMonkey 2.2 on Mandriva Linux 2009.0 on a HP 6730b laptop. Do you have WebGL disabled in about:config? Yes. -- Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Daniel wrote: WLS wrote: Daniel wrote: WLS wrote: Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: WLS wrote: Ray_Net wrote: WLS wrote: Ray_Net wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 05/08/2011 11:17, Bill Davidsen told the world: Some commercial users have complained that they can't do a QA cycle that often, and according to the reports were told that Firefox is not suitable for business use. I can dig out the link for anyone who hasn't learned to use a search engine, I saw it in either networkworld.com or slashdot. This guy at Ars Technica had a different spin on the issue: http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/06/firefox-update-policy-the-enterprise-is-wrong-not-mozilla.ars/ Where we can read: six week cycle is the goal. Therefore the end-user MUST install a new version each six weeks. He have other things to do This is why he will decide: I will stay on my version for at least one year ... i am not part of an SM testing group. You are a part of any browser testing group whether you want to be or not. Even the most stable releases have bugs, and new security holes are often found that need to be fixed. Some light reading for you if you so choose. http://blog.mozilla.com/channels/2011/07/18/every-six-weeks/ and since Firefox, Thunderbird and SeaMonkey are all Gecko based, this was an interesting read for me. At the end of the article, i read: Comments are closed. http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2011/08/02/extending-our-reach-lets-talk-gecko/ That was written by Mitchell Baker the Chair of the Mozilla Foundation. I still want a crank for my auto ignition, but I had to move on, to that danged remote starter thingy, I agree to start for the future but people need less steps to go to the future ... not a change every six weeks. If you want to miss out on 3D sound visualizers with WebGL and HTML5 Audio, that is your choice. I want all the latest new web innovations, whether I use them or not. I'd post a link to the demo, but it currently works in Firefox only. Come on SM developers get caught up! :) Huh, unless the web app is specifically targetting Firefox and ignoring everyone else, a similar-Gecko-Version SeaMonkey should work for those pure-web demo's. Can you provide a link to what is not working in SeaMonkey that Works in Firefox on a web demo level. ESPECIALLY if it is hosted by mozilla. Thanks, Just tested it in SeaMonkey and it works. Needing a Firefox browser was the author's words not mine. Sorry, I should have checked. Stating you needed a modern Gecko based browser may have been better. Here is the link if anyone wants to view the demo. http://robhawkes.github.com/webgl-html5-audio-visualiser/ Clicking on the link got me Jazz sounding music with a blank screen and Done SeaMonkey 2.2 on Mandriva Linux 2009.0 on a HP 6730b laptop. Do you have WebGL disabled in about:config? Yes. Enable it. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: WLS wrote: Daniel wrote: WLS wrote: Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: WLS wrote: Ray_Net wrote: WLS wrote: Ray_Net wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 05/08/2011 11:17, Bill Davidsen told the world: Some commercial users have complained that they can't do a QA cycle that often, and according to the reports were told that Firefox is not suitable for business use. I can dig out the link for anyone who hasn't learned to use a search engine, I saw it in either networkworld.com or slashdot. This guy at Ars Technica had a different spin on the issue: http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/06/firefox-update-policy-the-enterprise-is-wrong-not-mozilla.ars/ Where we can read: six week cycle is the goal. Therefore the end-user MUST install a new version each six weeks. He have other things to do This is why he will decide: I will stay on my version for at least one year ... i am not part of an SM testing group. You are a part of any browser testing group whether you want to be or not. Even the most stable releases have bugs, and new security holes are often found that need to be fixed. Some light reading for you if you so choose. http://blog.mozilla.com/channels/2011/07/18/every-six-weeks/ and since Firefox, Thunderbird and SeaMonkey are all Gecko based, this was an interesting read for me. At the end of the article, i read: Comments are closed. http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2011/08/02/extending-our-reach-lets-talk-gecko/ That was written by Mitchell Baker the Chair of the Mozilla Foundation. I still want a crank for my auto ignition, but I had to move on, to that danged remote starter thingy, I agree to start for the future but people need less steps to go to the future ... not a change every six weeks. If you want to miss out on 3D sound visualizers with WebGL and HTML5 Audio, that is your choice. I want all the latest new web innovations, whether I use them or not. I'd post a link to the demo, but it currently works in Firefox only. Come on SM developers get caught up! :) Huh, unless the web app is specifically targetting Firefox and ignoring everyone else, a similar-Gecko-Version SeaMonkey should work for those pure-web demo's. Can you provide a link to what is not working in SeaMonkey that Works in Firefox on a web demo level. ESPECIALLY if it is hosted by mozilla. Thanks, Just tested it in SeaMonkey and it works. Needing a Firefox browser was the author's words not mine. Sorry, I should have checked. Stating you needed a modern Gecko based browser may have been better. Here is the link if anyone wants to view the demo. http://robhawkes.github.com/webgl-html5-audio-visualiser/ Clicking on the link got me Jazz sounding music with a blank screen and Done SeaMonkey 2.2 on Mandriva Linux 2009.0 on a HP 6730b laptop. Do you have WebGL disabled in about:config? Really even if its enabled in about:config, it could be disabled on your system. webgl.disabled ... default.false (is disabled and false a double negative??) Please check about:support (type that into your URL bar) and be sure you have SeaMonkey 2.1 or later. SeaMonkey 2.2.Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110706 SeaMonkey/2.2 Next scroll to the bottom of the page and under Graphics, you should see data about WebGL, Direct2D etc., if it is listed as enabled there but failing to work properly, we (Gecko's graphics team) would love to know about it, and have a bug on file. Under Graphics, the only thing I have listed is GPU Accelerated Windows with the value 0/3 And if there is a difference between *us* (SeaMonkey) and Firefox (of the same Gecko version) in the WebGL renderings, we (SeaMonkey Devs) want to know about it! -- Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Daniel wrote: Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: Do you have WebGL disabled in about:config? Really even if its enabled in about:config, it could be disabled on your system. webgl.disabled ... default.false (is disabled and false a double negative??) Yes it is a double negative, if your value is false your *pref* is to have it enabled. Please check about:support (type that into your URL bar) and be sure you have SeaMonkey 2.1 or later. SeaMonkey 2.2.Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110706 SeaMonkey/2.2 With SeaMonkey 2.2 you *should* have more than just |GPU Accelerated Windows| under Graphics, [afaik] but 0/3 sounds like you don't have the capability for WebGL on your system. -- ~Justin Wood (Callek) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: Ed Mullen wrote: Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: Jens Hatlak wrote: [This is mostly for Philip et al. since Callek surely knows or can find out himself.] AFAICS it's 2.5 (current trunk) that will have seven levels in the plus direction and 4 in the negative direction again by default. Current Aurora nightlies (to-be 2.4) still have 3/3. Note: When upgrading, you'll need to reset the toolkit.zoomManager.zoomValues pref manually (e.g. using about:config) and then restart SeaMonkey. OK, thank you. I have tried with Seamonkey 2.2, using : toolkit.zoomManager.zoomValues : 0.125,0.25,0.5,1.0,2.0,4.0,8.0 zoom.minPercent : 12 zoom.maxPercent : 800 and now see exactly three levels of zoom in total (default, +, -). Presumably this is expected at the Rev 2.2 level and I can't expect anything closer to what I need until Seamonkey 2.5 hits the streets. IOW, for things like Add-ons Manager and Data Manager (called from different places!), corresponding bugs need to be filed if not already present. No bug, no change. Will do. Philip Taylor What is unacceptable is that the user can no longer set his/her own values for toolkit.zoomManager.zoomValues. For me the forced values don't work. As I've said here before I don't care about the localization issue (View - Text Zoom wouldn't show the user-set values. And that was Kairo's answer for this forced change. The code ignores a user-set value in user.js and/or prefs.js and reverts to the default only to make sure the View - Text Zoom menu values are right. It ignores what the user wants. Ignore what the user wants? I will make no comment on the sensibility of such software design other than to say: Stop telling me what I want and how I should set up my computer. Ed I *did* say that it is no longer doing that, (the bug is fixed) please stop spreading this diatribe, thanks. I stand corrected. Sorry for not reading more closely. -- Ed Mullen http://edmullen.net/ When God is amazed, does he say: Oh my Me!? ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Robert Kaiser wrote: Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) schrieb: Unfortunately, from a user perspective, major change is rarely welcome, whilst increased security and incremental bug fixes are universally appreciated. Right, that's why the major change the web brought to computers was never appreciated by users, the major change that Firefox brought compared to Internet Explorer was never appreciated by users, and why the major change that smartphones and mobile devices are bringing to lives of everyone are not appreciated by users. At least you confirm that we are living in different worlds and I should not work for a product made for yours, as I don't understand it. Robert Kaiser Yes. That's why the US DHS and its policies are so much appreciated. :-) Isn't that department all about security? Don't you all just love the changes it has introduced in the lives of the residents of the USA and the rest of the world? ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Robert Kaiser wrote: Jens Hatlak schrieb: IOW, for things like Add-ons Manager and Data Manager (called from different places!), corresponding bugs need to be filed if not already present. No bug, no change. One is enough, it's the switchToTabHavingURI() function that is to blame and used by both. I admit I was less precise than usual; missed parentheses. ;-) As Philip wrote, it's bug 665678. Greetings, Jens -- Jens Hatlak http://jens.hatlak.de/ SeaMonkey Trunk Tracker http://smtt.blogspot.com/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Robert Kaiser wrote: PhillipJones schrieb: The original post meant SeaMonkey. It didn't. FF is up to 5.6.7.8 or whatever. SM increments their major updates by .1's 2.0, 2.1, 2.2., 2.3, 2.4 and so on. That is just a different numbering system, the rate and size of updates is very similar. Version numbers in software are just like coordinate systems in physics: But necessarily and irrelevant. They're necessary as a reference system but it's completely irrelevant and arbitrary how you set them. Robert Kaiser What's relevant is not their naming but their frequency and buggines! ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Rufus schrieb: 99 cent price point for i-apps which augment SM on the iOS platform - cha-ching! If they still want to give the suite away for free, they can still do that. But i-apps and complementary add-ons? Sell away - biz model 2.0! Note that this is not done by the SM team and no money would go to SM in any way. ou can donate to the Mozilla Foundation, there you even can drop it in a bucket that is to be used for SeaMonkey (see https://donate.mozilla.org/page/contribute/seamonkey). And Mozilla itself has always been doing free software and makes enough money right now from search deals in Firefox that the organization can do a whole lot for its mission of promoting openness, innovation and opportunity on the web that it doesn't need to sell its software, not even on the Apple Store, where 30% of all money would flow to Apple anyhow. Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj schrieb: What's relevant is not their naming but their frequency and buggines! Right, and SeaMonkey matches Firefox both in frequency as well as mostly in how few bugs it has, though SeaMonkey tends to have a bit more of those than Firefox recently. Still, the all-volunteer SeaMonkey team is working on coming closer again. Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
On 8/8/2011 12:27 PM Robert Kaiser submitted the following: Rostyslaw Lewyckyj schrieb: What's relevant is not their naming but their frequency and buggines! Right, and SeaMonkey matches Firefox both in frequency as well as mostly in how few bugs it has, though SeaMonkey tends to have a bit more of those than Firefox recently. Still, the all-volunteer SeaMonkey team is working on coming closer again. Robert Kaiser I just wonder how many users of Windows XP or other OSs know what version they are running. M$ updates some automatically others have to ask for updates. What version are YOU running? How do you find out? Look at 'System Info'. How about naming it SeaMonkey2011 and then just update as needed without changing the name. Version number would be hidden just like M$ does with the OS. OK - Just take the suggestion with a grain of salt. But, I'm tired of all the yapping about Version numbers. I'm just as happy with 2.2 as I was with 2.0.15pre. -- Ed http://JonesFarm.us/W3BNR Powered by SeaMonkey: http://www.seamonkey-project.org/ Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Ed Mullen schrieb: What is unacceptable is that the user can no longer set his/her own values for toolkit.zoomManager.zoomValues. 1) SeaMonkey never allowed to set custom values for the list of available zoom levels before, that was a Firefox-only feature until recently. 2) Newer SeaMonkey versions will allow setting custom values through that pref, I think it was said already that it's probably 2.5 that will first feature that (release planned in roughly 13 weeks). Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Pat Connors sent me the following:: Okay, I just got home after a week away and see there is another new version of SM. I am still on 2.0.14 and didn't update to 2.2 because of all the complaints. Now we have 2.3 and more complaints. I really don't know what to do. I like the version I am using. I am using Windows 7 which seems to complicate all new program updates. Just wondering how others using Win 7 have managed with the new update. my two cents: SeaMonkey 2.1 and 2.2 have been virtually flawless...there may have been a few niggling details which irked me personally... but none rose to the level of making me decide to remain in the insecure 2.0.x series... i keep backups of my address books and my bookmarks... but haven't had any need to import them since jumping to 2.1... one of the things folks in this group need to realize is, change in inevitable... progress moves forward... no e'mail program in the 2010's can afford to remain static... lest it whither away with the dying off of its intransigent user base... given how few people actually send e'mail anymore outside of their cell phones, we are lucky to still have an independent e'mail/browser combo that remains in development based the gecko/mozilla... personally i've found the tabs in the e'mail section quite useful... but the program isn't forcing you to use them... sean -- You step in the stream... But the water has moved on... This page is not here. courtesy of TagZilla 0.066.2 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: MCBastos wrote: But, the thing is, with limited resources available, supporting those old releases means that the new release does not receive as much work as it needs. With Seamonkey tied to the every-six-weeks Mozilla release schedule, delaying release is not an option. So supporting the old releases is no longer viable. As our parents used to ask, If everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you do it, too? Just because the FF people decided to rush things and churn out a series of half-baked products for the sake of keeping up with the Joneses, why should we ape them? (and /please/ don't ask me to keep my metaphors straight) As you know, in the bakery business there are whole lines of products that you buy and finish baking them at home. So why not with software products which need to be completed or repaired at home. The same as unfinished furniture or other put it together at home products? ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
WLS wrote: The Mozilla Foundation is leading the development of a better Internet. http://www.mozilla.org/about/mission.html http://www.mozilla.org/about/manifesto By its' own claims and pronouncements! Just because you don't like it, don't spread misinformation. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 20:29:22 -0400, /Paul B. Gallagher/: As our parents used to ask, If everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you do it, too? Just because the FF people decided to rush things and churn out a series of half-baked products for the sake of keeping up with the Joneses, why should we ape them? (and /please/ don't ask me to keep my metaphors straight) Please stop spreading misinformation, if you otherwise don't understand it. The statement: the FF people decided to rush things and churn out a series of half-baked products, at the very least shows your ignorance, if not making you a complete liar. I'm only saying what I've read here from authoritative sources; the only addition is my judgment half-baked, which reflects many of the opinions voiced here. If you don't like it, speak to the merits of the argument. You need not shoot the messenger. But shooting the messenger is so much more emotionally satisfying than going out into the jungle and shooting those lurking bugs, or clearing the underbrush or fixing the unsafe bridges et.c. . ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: MCBastos wrote: But, the thing is, with limited resources available, supporting those old releases means that the new release does not receive as much work as it needs. With Seamonkey tied to the every-six-weeks Mozilla release schedule, delaying release is not an option. So supporting the old releases is no longer viable. As our parents used to ask, If everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you do it, too? Just because the FF people decided to rush things and churn out a series of half-baked products for the sake of keeping up with the Joneses, why should we ape them? (and /please/ don't ask me to keep my metaphors straight) As you know, in the bakery business there are whole lines of products that you buy and finish baking them at home. So why not with software products which need to be completed or repaired at home. The same as unfinished furniture or other put it together at home products? Mozilla products are Open Source IIRC, and you can always download the source and build your own. Correct me if I am wrong. http://www.seamonkey-project.org/releases/#source ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: WLS wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: I'm only saying what I've read here from authoritative sources; the only addition is my judgment half-baked, which reflects many of the opinions voiced here. If you don't like it, speak to the merits of the argument. You need not shoot the messenger. Please cite these authoritative sources. I would happily cull a series of quotes from our developers and other experts, but there doesn't seem to be a way of searching the bodies of messages posted here -- or do you know a solution? For listserv and mailman lists, where I download the full messages to my local drive, it's a trivial matter to find quotes. For this NNTP group, I seem to only have the option of searching subject and author. Is it archived somewhere in a searchable form? Uh. I don't know your connection bandwidth or other system limitations. But (theoretically) you could download the newsgroup messages from the server and then search localy on your personal computer. You wouldn't need to download all the way back to 2007, just the relevant time interval. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: MCBastos wrote: But, the thing is, with limited resources available, supporting those old releases means that the new release does not receive as much work as it needs. With Seamonkey tied to the every-six-weeks Mozilla release schedule, delaying release is not an option. So supporting the old releases is no longer viable. As our parents used to ask, If everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you do it, too? Just because the FF people decided to rush things and churn out a series of half-baked products for the sake of keeping up with the Joneses, why should we ape them? (and /please/ don't ask me to keep my metaphors straight) Without going into the details of why your diatribe is wrong and bothersome... Fine, and I won't go into details of why a question is not a diatribe. At any rate, the answer that follows is very helpful and informative, unlike the other responses, and it does answer my question. Moreover, it confirms the premise that the SeaMonkey team has adopted a rapid-release schedule largely /because/ the Firefox team did so. And it makes clear that the decision was well-thought out, which was the other half of my question. You must've expected when you made the decision, or at least you know now, that lots of users are unhappy with versions 2.1 and 2.2 and have been complaining about bugs, broken and lost features, etc. This isn't my diatribe, it's just the content of the newsgroup, and it comes with the territory of releasing every six weeks. If I keep my mouth shut, you'll still get plenty of complaints from others, so I can't help you there. I should probably include for the peanut gallery my standard disclaimer that I'm a long-term SeaMonkey, Mozilla, and Netscape user (going back to NS 4.x) who would like nothing better than for SM to be a great program with a large following. And I don't see the rapid-release schedule as contributing to those ends. YMMV. We're not acting like Lemmings, we're acting like realists. The fact is that Firefox (along with Core Gecko, which we depend on) is moving to a rapid release cycle. We weighed our options here, which include things like the following (not all inclusive): * Follow the Rapid Release train wholesale, release whenever Firefox Releases. * Maintain a 6-9 month stability release ourselves, for every version we release; and follow the Firefox cycle for every major release the whole time. * Maintain a 12 week support cycle for each and every release, skipping every other Firefox/Gecko release. The problems with those other solutions, is that not only is it confusion for others (Like l10n, which diverging too much would make releasing matching localized builds much harder). It also means that we would be VERY hard pressed to diagnose, fix, and maintain any security fixes that are uncovered. Most security issues in Gecko Code are fixed by those Core Gecko Developers, not simply because we don't have time to touch that code, but because we don't _know_ the internals of that code as well as them. So a bug that they could theoretically fix in a day, would take us a week or more. And security bugs tend to involve a much deeper knowledge about how all those moving parts fit together. To preempt the question of why not just fix in a branch what they just fixed in trunk ... it's not always that easy. There could have been a code refactor in trunk code meaning that fixing it on our branch would be MUCH harder since we have to work from scratch. Also the fix they may employ in trunk could involve web compat changes, (such as say, they discover a bustage in cross site requests, where the fix is to update our implementation to a completely new version of the specification -- our commitment on stable releases is NOT to break those web compat issues) Lastly if we just do nothing on those branches, we leave you, our users, open for web-based attacks, that can manifest viruses, password stealing, facebook proliferation (without your consent) among other serious issues. In the end the Follow the Firefox plan of a rapid release is the only viable solution. The only solution that actually plans to keep you, our users, supported and happy. If Firefox comes up with a solution to the enterprise that does not involve manpower in hand-holding the enterprise, we'll follow suit (we don't have man power to handhold all our users) We don't necessarily have to like the plan on their side, but it is either abandon SeaMonkey, or follow suit in the end. We decided to follow suit. It was not an easy choice, and one that if we knew *in advance* of Firefox 4's EOL right away, we would have released a SeaMonkey on Gecko 1.9.2. Where before the Gecko Rapid Release Plan was finalized, it was presumed (rightly) that Gecko 2.0 (Firefox 4.0) would have the same level of support that 1.9.1 and 1.9.2 had previously, and that is what we had intended to release SeaMonkey 2.1 on; When that story
Re: new 2.3
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 07/08/2011 21:29, Paul B. Gallagher told the world: MCBastos wrote: But, the thing is, with limited resources available, supporting those old releases means that the new release does not receive as much work as it needs. With Seamonkey tied to the every-six-weeks Mozilla release schedule, delaying release is not an option. So supporting the old releases is no longer viable. As our parents used to ask, If everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you do it, too? Just because the FF people decided to rush things and churn out a series of half-baked products for the sake of keeping up with the Joneses, why should we ape them? (and /please/ don't ask me to keep my metaphors straight) I don't mind your mixed metaphors, but I DO resent your loaded question. It's cheap rhetoric device devoid of content. First of all, I reject the premise that FF would be churning half-baked products. This is simply not true. In fact, it has been argued that the new rapid-release schedule IMPROVES quality, since each release goes through twelve weeks of testing (Aurora and Beta stages) with *no new features added*, just debugging. In the old scheme, there was always the temptation to add new features with the product close to release, since the next release would be maybe a year away. And sometimes those new features *were* half-baked. So how many weeks of pure debugging and actual test suite testing did SM 2.1 receive (in addition to testing by the FF and TB team testing? [keeping in mind that SM has lots of code filched from FF TB]) Also with 'an expected release maybe a year away' why were the new features half-baked previously? A year is surely long enough to test. And how about 2.2 ? And how about 2.3 ? And how about repairing in 2.2 bugs discovered after release in 2.1? And in 2.3 repairing bugs from 2.1 and/or 2.2? (There have, I admit, promises to repair in 2.4 or later, some problems introduced in 2.1 :-) ) Second, Seamonkey does depend on Gecko and other Mozilla technologies. SM 2.2 runs on Gecko 5. As soon as Firefox 6 is released, Gecko 5 stop receiving security and stability patches. Which means that any newly-discovered bugs on Gecko 5 (and therefore Seamonkey 2.2) will remain unpatched. Yes we know! we have been promised that. So, yeah, we DO have to release SM 2.3 with Gecko 6, if we want to give our users a secure browser. We don't have a team of Gecko experts to backport new patches to Gecko 5. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Mon, 08 Aug 2011 14:27:03 -0400, /Rostyslaw Lewyckyj/: MCBastos wrote: First of all, I reject the premise that FF would be churning half-baked products. This is simply not true. In fact, it has been argued that the new rapid-release schedule IMPROVES quality, since each release goes through twelve weeks of testing (Aurora and Beta stages) with *no new features added*, just debugging. In the old scheme, there was always the temptation to add new features with the product close to release, since the next release would be maybe a year away. And sometimes those new features *were* half-baked. So how many weeks of pure debugging and actual test suite testing did SM 2.1 receive (in addition to testing by the FF and TB team testing? [keeping in mind that SM has lots of code filched from FF TB]) Also with 'an expected release maybe a year away' why were the new features half-baked previously? A year is surely long enough to test. And how about 2.2 ? And how about 2.3 ? And how about repairing in 2.2 bugs discovered after release in 2.1? And in 2.3 repairing bugs from 2.1 and/or 2.2? (There have, I admit, promises to repair in 2.4 or later, some problems introduced in 2.1 :-) ) A year is surely long enough to test. I don't think the SeaMonkey devs have ever had a full year for testing a supposedly frozen product. Even with the previous Mozilla release cycle, the longer time between releases meant more features developed to the very end of the cycle, and then more stuff for the SeaMonkey developers to catch up with. So no, I don't think and my experience is, SeaMonkey has not been more stable having to release in longer intervals. The shorter release cycle means less breaking changes would appear with releases, the end users will be involved much more in identifying problems with new changes, and these problems could be addressed much faster, don't having to wait 1 or 2 years just to come up with the next major release. -- Stanimir ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: And how about repairing in 2.2 bugs discovered after release in 2.1? And in 2.3 repairing bugs from 2.1 and/or 2.2? (There have, I admit, promises to repair in 2.4 or later, some problems introduced in 2.1 :-) ) I'm sure you're capable of reading, no? How about reading the release notes of the versions you cited, especially the Changes pages? Lots of fixes for bugs discovered before and after the previous releases you cited. In fact the SM developers have hardly been doing anything *but* fixing bugs, preparing new releases containing those and updating documentation on that! HTH Jens -- Jens Hatlak http://jens.hatlak.de/ SeaMonkey Trunk Tracker http://smtt.blogspot.com/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
On 08/07/2011 09:44 PM, Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: NoOp wrote: ... Same as Daniel. Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:6.0) Gecko/20110731 Firefox/6.0 SeaMonkey/2.3 From about:support Graphics Adapter DescriptionNVIDIA Corporation -- Quadro4 900 XGL/AGP/SSE2Driver Version1.5.8 NVIDIA 96.43.19WebGL RendererBlocked for your graphics driver version. Try updating your graphics driver to version NVIDIA 257.21 or newer.GPU Accelerated Windows0/6. Blocked for your graphics driver version. Try updating your graphics driver to version NVIDIA 257.21 or newer. Ok looking at these results I see daunting: WebGL Renderer Blocked for your graphics driver version. Try updating your graphics driver to version NVIDIA 257.21 or newer. Which basically means that Mozilla's testing has uncovered stability/security problems with the Version of your NVIDIA driver, and explicitly disables the WebGL features at this time for your driver version. If possible update your driver, if not you are unfortunately required to wait for either NVIDIA to upgrade your driver, or Core Gecko developers to find a workaround that is both usable and stable. The driver is the latest for that card. Seems to be the Windows Vista syndrome... fill the landfills with old hardware so that you can experience the latest greatest. I don't see how this editorial assists anything. The 'editorial' is a 'comment' and not an editorial. The primary meaning is that new improved features require users to abandon existing hardware and fill the landfills with older hardware. Further, NVIDIA 257.21 doesn't work on Quadro4 cards. I would check what driver updates you have available for your NVIDIA card, if there are no newer drivers, I would suggest you contact NVIDIA and request/demand/whatever them to update their driver for your Card. Good luck with that. nVidia are in the business of selling new cards/GPU's and have little interest in supporting .96 cards any longer. I of course cannot speak for what they can/will do. But Good Luck. (I was lucky enough, as of a few months ago anyway, to have an XP machine with a supported Device Driver -- Have not tested on that machine in a while) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rostyslaw Lewyckyj schrieb: What's relevant is not their naming but their frequency and buggines! Right, and SeaMonkey matches Firefox both in frequency as well as mostly in how few bugs it has, though SeaMonkey tends to have a bit more of those than Firefox recently. Still, the all-volunteer SeaMonkey team is working on coming closer again. Robert Kaiser And how soon the bugs are eliminated :-) Right now bugs, misfeatures, introduced in SM 2.1 are projected to be possibly corrected in 2.5. Them's the new development rules. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj schrieb: So how many weeks of pure debugging and actual test suite testing did SM 2.1 receive (in addition to testing by the FF and TB team testing? Too little automated testing, we need more tests to be written and are happy about people doing those, feel free to contribute. And how about 2.2 ? And how about 2.3 ? Those have more testing because the stable phase is much longer with the new process, believe it or not. Previously, new features could land up to the last beta in practice, and they did get testing only through the one or two RCs, with 2-3 weeks, maybe a month in total of being out there for testing before release. With the new process, no features can land in aurora or beta phases, only fixes and turning off of non-finished features are allowed, which makes us have ever feature-stable version being ready and in testing for 12 weeks before release. That's more than we ever had before, so the result should be more stable and better tested. Sounds fun to say that a faster release cycle results in more testing and more stability, but a number of very intelligent people at Mozilla thought long and hard about this to make exactly that happen. Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Paul B. Gallagher schrieb: You must've expected when you made the decision, or at least you know now, that lots of users are unhappy with versions 2.1 and 2.2 and have been complaining about bugs, broken and lost features, etc. Note that 1) the 2.1 release was not part of the fast release cycle, it is the last release of the old, slow release cycle, and took more than a year and a half to be completed, and 2) the 2.1 release has produced way fewer complaints than the 2.0 one has before (which took even longer to complete). The complaints about 2.2 specifically are minimal, most issues are with things that have been introduced in 2.1, but 2.0.x users got their update offers directly to 2.2, so a lot more people jumped from 2.0 to 2.2 than from 2.0 to 2.1, which makes a comparison hard. 2.2 already fixed some issues we saw in feedback to 2.1, and 2.3 fixes even more issues seen in feedback to 2.2 - the fast release cycle actually makes it easier for us to fix bugs. Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
NoOp schrieb: The driver is the latest for that card. Blame nVidia for being customer-unfriendly and stopping to support your card in newer drivers. Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
NoOp schrieb: Thanks. I suspect that is the issue (linux). Same problem on a 2 year old laptop w/Intel Mobile GM45... I'll run out and buy a new laptop tomorrow so I can experience all the wonders of WebGL :-) As I said in my post, under Linux the card may not the problem, Mozilla's support for hardware acceleration under Linux might very well be, coupled with the fact that almost all Linux graphics drivers suck at advanced and crash-free 3D support (and nVidia binary ones are among the best, unfortunately - even though the open source Intel drivers are getting better and better). We just do not have hardware acceleration support for Linux turned on anywhere yet, for no driver and no Mozilla software available right now. WebGL starting with I think SeaMonkey 2.3 might get turned on on a broad range of drivers, including Intel GM45 ones, but without hw accel it's pretty slow (tested on both my Intel GM45 laptop and my Intel SandyBridge/i7 desktop). It will take our graphics people some time to get it functional well enough so they can turn it on - but believe it or not, Android is the force driving them to get it supported well. Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj schrieb: And how soon the bugs are eliminated :-) Right now bugs, misfeatures, introduced in SM 2.1 are projected to be possibly corrected in 2.5. Them's the new development rules. True, we are fixing bugs all the time and releasing every six week to deliver the fixes to users as fast as possible. Those things that need patches going deep enough to only get fixed with 2.5 now (i.e. in about 3 months from now) would have taken a year or more to be delivered to users in the old model. Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
[OT WebGL + older hardware[ Re: new 2.3
On 08/08/2011 06:48 PM, Robert Kaiser wrote: NoOp schrieb: The driver is the latest for that card. Blame nVidia for being customer-unfriendly and stopping to support your card in newer drivers. Robert Kaiser I do. Examples: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers-96/+bug/626974 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers/+bug/741930 But the point remains as to why newer services such as WebGL et al require newer hardware. Also appreciate the other post re Intel Mobile GM45... I'll try in Win to see if there is any difference. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus schrieb: 99 cent price point for i-apps which augment SM on the iOS platform - cha-ching! If they still want to give the suite away for free, they can still do that. But i-apps and complementary add-ons? Sell away - biz model 2.0! Note that this is not done by the SM team and no money would go to SM in any way. ou can donate to the Mozilla Foundation, there you even can drop it in a bucket that is to be used for SeaMonkey (see https://donate.mozilla.org/page/contribute/seamonkey). And Mozilla itself has always been doing free software and makes enough money right now from search deals in Firefox that the organization can do a whole lot for its mission of promoting openness, innovation and opportunity on the web that it doesn't need to sell its software, not even on the Apple Store, where 30% of all money would flow to Apple anyhow. Robert Kaiser Someone asked for an example of how the SM team could generate some actual revenue...this is one way, and again it's back to the idea of a new product and a new strategy. And 70% is still greater than zero. I was just providing an example. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
On 08/08/2011 06:54 PM, Robert Kaiser wrote: NoOp schrieb: Thanks. I suspect that is the issue (linux). Same problem on a 2 year old laptop w/Intel Mobile GM45... I'll run out and buy a new laptop tomorrow so I can experience all the wonders of WebGL :-) As I said in my post, under Linux the card may not the problem, Mozilla's support for hardware acceleration under Linux might very well be, coupled with the fact that almost all Linux graphics drivers suck at advanced and crash-free 3D support (and nVidia binary ones are among the best, unfortunately - even though the open source Intel drivers are getting better and better). We just do not have hardware acceleration support for Linux turned on anywhere yet, for no driver and no Mozilla software available right now. WebGL starting with I think SeaMonkey 2.3 might get turned on on a broad range of drivers, including Intel GM45 ones, but without hw accel it's pretty slow (tested on both my Intel GM45 laptop and my Intel SandyBridge/i7 desktop). It will take our graphics people some time to get it functional well enough so they can turn it on - but believe it or not, Android is the force driving them to get it supported well. Robert Kaiser Just booted to Win7 the link works on the same GM45 laptop w/SM 2.3b3. So it does appear to be a linux issue. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: Rufus wrote: *This* surprises the crap out of me though, considering some of what I've read here elsewhere - http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/mobile/ ...and you get it via the Apple App Store. Off topic for this NG, *but* Firefox Home is *not* Firefox for iPhone, it is basically Weave/Firefox Sync for the iPhone. Letting you access bookmarks, etc. with the iPhone browser you have, (which is webkit only, and closer to truth Safari only) Yeah, that's what I gather...I just don't get how it does it. I suppose it's some sort of bridge - Atomic can install a scrip that will cross-open a URL in Safari (and vice-versa, I think)...but I can't really think of a reason I'd want to do that. This seems like it could be handy, though. I don't like Atomic's cloud-based bookmark synch even though I do prefer Atomic's feature set over iOS Safari. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: Well, the mass of innovation-resistant people posting in those forums is at least one of the reasons why I moved away my focus from SeaMonkey and work on making Firefox more stable (in terms of not crashing) now. Understood, Robert. I can quite see that from the perspective of a developer, pushing the frontiers of science is a far more appealing prospect than a daily grind of bug-fixing and papering over the cracks. Unfortunately, from a user perspective, major change is rarely welcome, whilst increased security and incremental bug fixes are universally appreciated. Philip Taylor I agree with you, they prefer constructing new gadgets than repairing the stuff they have badly constructed !!! (sometimes they kill what was working perfectly before) As usual some SM geeks will destroy our point of vue ...for the GLORY of SM - Which they are convinced that SM is the BEST product ever constructed. And arguing that because the developers are volonters ... they may choice what they want ... and not what the end-user expect. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Bill Davidsen wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 05/08/2011 11:17, Bill Davidsen told the world: Some commercial users have complained that they can't do a QA cycle that often, and according to the reports were told that Firefox is not suitable for business use. I can dig out the link for anyone who hasn't learned to use a search engine, I saw it in either networkworld.com or slashdot. This guy at Ars Technica had a different spin on the issue: http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/06/firefox-update-policy-the-enterprise-is-wrong-not-mozilla.ars/ Yes, he certainly makes the point that if you aren't the one paying for testing, or for the cost of retraining users, or lost productivity if there is a bug and something required stops working. And since there are no bugfix releases if there are bugs they will never be fixed, you just have to live with the bug for six weeks and then upgrade again. I live with certains bugs for 7 years . ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: Sat, 06 Aug 2011 21:47:15 +0100, /Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)/: Robert Kaiser wrote: Well, the mass of innovation-resistant people posting in those forums is at least one of the reasons why I moved away my focus from SeaMonkey and work on making Firefox more stable (in terms of not crashing) now. Understood, Robert. I can quite see that from the perspective of a developer, pushing the frontiers of science is a far more appealing prospect than a daily grind of bug-fixing and papering over the cracks. Unfortunately, from a user perspective, major change is rarely welcome, whilst increased security and incremental bug fixes are universally appreciated. Do you guys clearly understand the SeaMonkey developers don't get paid for their work on SeaMonkey? This guy understands it perfectly, and is very grateful to those volunteers for their work and efforts on what has, until recently, been a superb suite of software that has formed a central part of his everyday working regime. His concern is that this suite is now evolving in a way and a direction that will make it ever less usable. Once again - it is all volunteer effort! Do you understand the maintenance of SeaMonkey involves various compromises to fit with the ever evolving Mozilla platform? That may well be the reality of the situation, in which case we should be neither surprised nor disappointed to realise that what Seamonkey users want will be given far less weight than what Mozilla and the Firefox team want. Which does not make it any less of a shame. If you want completely feature frozen product - just use whatever version you've been satisfied with at some point in time. However you understand you can't use just that version because of necessary security fixes appearing in subsequent releases, or just because the browser or another component becomes too outdated to support required latest technologies. Note, the SeaMonkey developers don't develop these latest technologies and they can't provide security fixes to the platform on their own - we (the SeaMonkey users) are all dependent on the Mozilla platform (the development of which is mainly driven by the Firefox development). You can either continue to bitch, Putting a reasoned argument on behalf of those who prefer stability and security to non-essential change is not bitching; it is offering a constructive criticism that should be interpreted as such. or get your hands dirty by keeping track of how the Mozilla platform evolves, then get some technical knowledge to understand how this affects SeaMonkey, and then probably come up with some constructive comments... or code patches you're ready to maintain. Like most Seamonkey users, I prefer to leave code changes to those who know what they are doing; that should not make my input, as a Seamonkey user since day-1, any less valued. And I have already made some constructive comments, such as o Why are tabs now being forced on Seamonkey users ? o Why are Seamonkey users now restricted to three levels of zoom, compared to eight in earlier versions ? and o What is the expected/intended behaviour of the DOM inspector if a wildcard is used as the leading element of a value field in the Find dialogue ? , the latter two of which have elicited zero response. And of course, if you could come up with a successful business model which would fund the development of SeaMonkey in a direction you want - you're welcome to make it true. If I could come up with a successful business model, I wouldn't be a Seamonkey user; I would be the owner, president and CEO of a LSE-listed company, the profits from which would be funding my retirement. Philip Taylor ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: WLS wrote: Ray_Net wrote: WLS wrote: Ray_Net wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 05/08/2011 11:17, Bill Davidsen told the world: Some commercial users have complained that they can't do a QA cycle that often, and according to the reports were told that Firefox is not suitable for business use. I can dig out the link for anyone who hasn't learned to use a search engine, I saw it in either networkworld.com or slashdot. This guy at Ars Technica had a different spin on the issue: http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/06/firefox-update-policy-the-enterprise-is-wrong-not-mozilla.ars/ Where we can read: six week cycle is the goal. Therefore the end-user MUST install a new version each six weeks. He have other things to do This is why he will decide: I will stay on my version for at least one year ... i am not part of an SM testing group. You are a part of any browser testing group whether you want to be or not. Even the most stable releases have bugs, and new security holes are often found that need to be fixed. Some light reading for you if you so choose. http://blog.mozilla.com/channels/2011/07/18/every-six-weeks/ and since Firefox, Thunderbird and SeaMonkey are all Gecko based, this was an interesting read for me. At the end of the article, i read: Comments are closed. http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2011/08/02/extending-our-reach-lets-talk-gecko/ That was written by Mitchell Baker the Chair of the Mozilla Foundation. I still want a crank for my auto ignition, but I had to move on, to that danged remote starter thingy, I agree to start for the future but people need less steps to go to the future ... not a change every six weeks. If you want to miss out on 3D sound visualizers with WebGL and HTML5 Audio, that is your choice. I want all the latest new web innovations, whether I use them or not. I'd post a link to the demo, but it currently works in Firefox only. Come on SM developers get caught up! :) Huh, unless the web app is specifically targetting Firefox and ignoring everyone else, a similar-Gecko-Version SeaMonkey should work for those pure-web demo's. Can you provide a link to what is not working in SeaMonkey that Works in Firefox on a web demo level. ESPECIALLY if it is hosted by mozilla. Thanks, Just tested it in SeaMonkey and it works. Needing a Firefox browser was the author's words not mine. Sorry, I should have checked. Stating you needed a modern Gecko based browser may have been better. Here is the link if anyone wants to view the demo. http://robhawkes.github.com/webgl-html5-audio-visualiser/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 10:37:53 +0100, /Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)/: Putting a reasoned argument on behalf of those who prefer stability and security to non-essential change is not bitching; it is offering a constructive criticism that should be interpreted as such. The problem with the so called constructive criticism I see widespread in this group, is it doesn't help keeping the SeaMonkey product alive, most importantly, and then usable, both related to the Mozilla platform dependency remark I've given previously. I agree that some of the critiques have lacked focus; but in general, I believe that those who are most vocal in criticising the current changes in Seamonkey development and release are also amongst those who are most deeply concerned that Seamonkey /should/ remain alive and usable : they are, in the main, people who (for better or worse) have come to depend on Seamonkey, and who are genuinely afraid that recent changes do not bode well for the future. What we need (IMHO) is a genuine debate between users and developers; a little less sniping, and a better appreciation by each side of the wishes of, and constraints on, the other side, would go a long way towards ensuring a viable future for this most valuable suite of software. Philip Taylor Philip, perhaps it might help to consider the SeaMonkey developers not as a group of developers who are trying to produce a product that will sweep all before them, but as a group of *USERS* who are trying to produce a product that will do what *they* want, and you and I get to use the result of their efforts for free. If they do the development you/I want, great. If not, you/I may need to find some other solution! -- Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
WLS wrote: Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: WLS wrote: Ray_Net wrote: WLS wrote: Ray_Net wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 05/08/2011 11:17, Bill Davidsen told the world: Some commercial users have complained that they can't do a QA cycle that often, and according to the reports were told that Firefox is not suitable for business use. I can dig out the link for anyone who hasn't learned to use a search engine, I saw it in either networkworld.com or slashdot. This guy at Ars Technica had a different spin on the issue: http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/06/firefox-update-policy-the-enterprise-is-wrong-not-mozilla.ars/ Where we can read: six week cycle is the goal. Therefore the end-user MUST install a new version each six weeks. He have other things to do This is why he will decide: I will stay on my version for at least one year ... i am not part of an SM testing group. You are a part of any browser testing group whether you want to be or not. Even the most stable releases have bugs, and new security holes are often found that need to be fixed. Some light reading for you if you so choose. http://blog.mozilla.com/channels/2011/07/18/every-six-weeks/ and since Firefox, Thunderbird and SeaMonkey are all Gecko based, this was an interesting read for me. At the end of the article, i read: Comments are closed. http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2011/08/02/extending-our-reach-lets-talk-gecko/ That was written by Mitchell Baker the Chair of the Mozilla Foundation. I still want a crank for my auto ignition, but I had to move on, to that danged remote starter thingy, I agree to start for the future but people need less steps to go to the future ... not a change every six weeks. If you want to miss out on 3D sound visualizers with WebGL and HTML5 Audio, that is your choice. I want all the latest new web innovations, whether I use them or not. I'd post a link to the demo, but it currently works in Firefox only. Come on SM developers get caught up! :) Huh, unless the web app is specifically targetting Firefox and ignoring everyone else, a similar-Gecko-Version SeaMonkey should work for those pure-web demo's. Can you provide a link to what is not working in SeaMonkey that Works in Firefox on a web demo level. ESPECIALLY if it is hosted by mozilla. Thanks, Just tested it in SeaMonkey and it works. Needing a Firefox browser was the author's words not mine. Sorry, I should have checked. Stating you needed a modern Gecko based browser may have been better. Here is the link if anyone wants to view the demo. http://robhawkes.github.com/webgl-html5-audio-visualiser/ Clicking on the link got me Jazz sounding music with a blank screen and Done SeaMonkey 2.2 on Mandriva Linux 2009.0 on a HP 6730b laptop. -- Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Sun, 07 Aug 2011 12:12:48 +0100, /Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)/: I agree that some of the critiques have lacked focus; but in general, I believe that those who are most vocal in criticising the current changes in Seamonkey development and release are also amongst those who are most deeply concerned that Seamonkey /should/ remain alive and usable : they are, in the main, people who (for better or worse) have come to depend on Seamonkey, and who are genuinely afraid that recent changes do not bode well for the future. The only thing I'm genuinely afraid of is that the last few people who care about, and have enough knowledge to develop and maintain SeaMonkey might loose interest because of so much unreasonable criticism going on. From my point of view every change to the SeaMonkey 2+ versions is well justified and reflects the capabilities of the SeaMonkey team. This is what I've been trying to explain previously, and further below. What we need (IMHO) is a genuine debate between users and developers; a little less sniping, and a better appreciation by each side of the wishes of, and constraints on, the other side, would go a long way towards ensuring a viable future for this most valuable suite of software. Your reply leads me to think you don't really understand the status quo, although you state so. Most of the features people vocally criticize the SeaMonkey developers about are not written by the SeaMonkey devs themselves, but by the core Mozilla platform team. The SeaMonkey devs are far too few in order to provide maintenance of old code, they have not really written, or to implement it anew, on top of the evolving Mozilla platform. The SeaMonkey devs try their best to preserve much of the original Mozilla Suite features perceived as most important to people, but it is not always possible because of major core changes introduced by the platform. I guess this is something vocally criticizing people in here can't really understand, being not interested in how the Mozilla platform evolves, and then how it affects the SeaMonkey project, which apart from some hardware infrastructure is not sponsored by the Mozilla organization in any way (as far as I'm aware). And finally, as Robert Kaiser have already pointed out, innovation-resistance won't make SeaMonkey any better. -- Stanimir ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Daniel wrote: Philip, perhaps it might help to consider the SeaMonkey developers not as a group of developers who are trying to produce a product that will sweep all before them, but as a group of *USERS* who are trying to produce a product that will do what *they* want, and you and I get to use the result of their efforts for free. Yes, I agree. That is certainly a valid alternative perspective. ** Phil. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: The only thing I'm genuinely afraid of is that the last few people who care about, and have enough knowledge to develop and maintain SeaMonkey might lose interest because of so much unreasonable criticism going on. From my point of view every change to the SeaMonkey 2+ versions is well justified and reflects the capabilities of the SeaMonkey team. This is what I've been trying to explain previously, and further below. Your reply leads me to think you don't really understand the status quo, although you state so. Most of the features people vocally criticize the SeaMonkey developers about are not written by the SeaMonkey devs themselves, but by the core Mozilla platform team. The SeaMonkey devs are far too few in order to provide maintenance of old code, they have not really written, or to implement it anew, on top of the evolving Mozilla platform. You are probably almost certainly correct. The problem is, the release notes do not provide any of this background -- we the users have no way of knowing which features were deliberately introduced by the Seamonkey team, which were carried over from Firefox/Gecko because they appeared to the Seamonkey team to be a good idea, and which were carried over because although the Seamonkey team viewed them as deleterious, they lacked the resources to replace them with something better (or to omit them completely). The SeaMonkey devs try their best to preserve much of the original Mozilla Suite features perceived as most important to people, but it is not always possible because of major core changes introduced by the platform. I guess this is something vocally criticizing people in here can't really understand, being not interested in how the Mozilla platform evolves, and then how it affects the SeaMonkey project, which apart from some hardware infrastructure is not sponsored by the Mozilla organization in any way (as far as I'm aware). Please see above. And finally, as Robert Kaiser have already pointed out, innovation-resistance won't make SeaMonkey any better. No, but it may help to make it less worse. Philip Taylor ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: What we need (IMHO) is a genuine debate between users and developers; a little less sniping, and a better appreciation by each side of the wishes of, and constraints on, the other side, would go a long way towards ensuring a viable future for this most valuable suite of software. What you have to realize is that it is not a debate that will foster development, bug fixing, and growth of SeaMonkey; Nor is it a us vs them situation, though it seems like you are trying to make it so. The developers are also users, some users are also testers. It is impossible to satisfy everyone 100% of the time, even if we had 2 thousand paid developers working on SeaMonkey 72 hours a week each. Likewise with the same manpower it would be impossible to squish every bug, or control every action in Core Gecko. [With that manpower it would be *easier* to choose to provide a longer-lived security release, but thats a different story] We all want the same thing, SeaMonkey to Succeed! Remember that, and remember that we do read and care about your [regular users] thoughts. Sometimes tradeoffs are necessary, sometimes new features are necessary. Sometimes features you (and us) have come to love about the Suite are basically killed off in Core Gecko and we are unable to rectify those deficiencies easily. [Other times we can rectify them just fine, -- Preferences Manager is one of those cases where we were able to keep the User Interface we have come to love] -- ~Justin Wood (Callek), SeaMonkey Council Member ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 12:12:48 +0100, /Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)/: I agree that some of the critiques have lacked focus; but in general, I believe that those who are most vocal in criticising the current changes in Seamonkey development and release are also amongst those who are most deeply concerned that Seamonkey /should/ remain alive and usable : they are, in the main, people who (for better or worse) have come to depend on Seamonkey, and who are genuinely afraid that recent changes do not bode well for the future. The only thing I'm genuinely afraid of is that the last few people who care about, and have enough knowledge to develop and maintain SeaMonkey might loose interest because of so much unreasonable criticism going on. From my point of view every change to the SeaMonkey 2+ versions is well justified and reflects the capabilities of the SeaMonkey team. This is what I've been trying to explain previously, and further below. To more eloquently say the same. That loose interest is a real problem. And sometimes even I do feel that pressure reading these groups. The term for it is Stop Energy: * http://bcsaller.blogspot.com/2005/11/stop-energy.html (or do more googling/researching yourself on the concept) -- ~Justin Wood (Callek), SeaMonkey Council Member ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: [snip] We all want the same thing, SeaMonkey to Succeed! Remember that, and remember that we do read and care about your [regular users] thoughts. Sometimes tradeoffs are necessary, sometimes new features are necessary. Sometimes features you (and us) have come to love about the Suite are basically killed off in Core Gecko and we are unable to rectify those deficiencies easily. OK, understood. But would it not help to prevent unjustified criticism if the rationale for each change were documented in the release notes ? All that would be needed would be to classify each change into one of three categories : A) Intentional : We, the Seamonkey Development Team, thought that this was something that most Seamonkey users would want and appreciate. We either engineered it ourselves or took a conscious decision to carry it over from the Gecko/Firefox projects. B) Collateral fallout : This was forced on us by a change in the Gecko engine and/or Firefox. We are by no means convinced that this is necessarily for the better, but it is something with which we will have to live for now. We will attempt to address it if we receive lots of negative feedback about this feature. C) Fait accompli. This is so deeply embedded in Gecko and/or Firefox that we can see no way to avoid it, either now or in the future. Sorry, chaps, but that's the way the biscuit crumbles. Philip Taylor ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 - Firefox updates too often
Rufus wrote: PhillipJones wrote: Rufus wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: PhillipJones schrieb: The original post meant SeaMonkey. It didn't. FF is up to 5.6.7.8 or whatever. SM increments their major updates by .1's 2.0, 2.1, 2.2., 2.3, 2.4 and so on. That is just a different numbering system, the rate and size of updates is very similar. Version numbers in software are just like coordinate systems in physics: But necessarily and irrelevant. They're necessary as a reference system but it's completely irrelevant and arbitrary how you set them. Robert Kaiser ...somebody clue me in on what this is all about? I guess this time I'm on the side of the developers...the new release schedule is something I can completely understand for once...and it certainly doesn't bother me. The numbers are just a reference and don't mean much in and of themselves, as stated. I get it. What's the problem? Just because releases come fast and furious doesn't mean that a user has to update on anyone's schedule but their own. They may need to pay more attention to the release notes and be more aware of what they're missing/getting, but in the end they are still in charge of administering their own machines...right? the OP of this thread obviously meant SM 2.3 and mistakenly wrote FF. And some of the people that show know better are demanding the thread be moved to FF. FF 2.3 has a beard as long as mine. Its obvious it was meant for SeaMonkey. I agree SM and (for that matter FF) is being updated too often. they release a new version even before they, even fix bugs from the previous versions. So they end up piling on bug after Bug. The proper thing to do is fix the bugs in current release get it stable then add new features and fix bugs from the new feature and get that stable. The way we are going, we will get a reputation Like Intuit. when they come out with a new release the don't fix bugs from previous release. So they pile new bugs on top. Quicken and Quickbooks are almost unusable. Because the put features over fixing bugs. I guess I don't really have an issue with the frequency of updates, and I don't use Quicken or Quickbooks, but I do/could have an issue with quality control...in either case I just need to be a bit more vigilant and pay attention to the release notes and user commentary, as I've said. The new release schedule and numbering don't bother me one bit other than that. *This* surprises the crap out of me though, considering some of what I've read here elsewhere - http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/mobile/ ...and you get it via the Apple App Store. This is something they have been working on for years. and finally put out. Shame they haven't come out with one for BlackBerry. iPhone Andriod, and BlackBerry (RIM) are the three major players. MS bringing up the rear. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: You are probably almost certainly correct. The problem is, the release notes do not provide any of this background -- we the users have no way of knowing which features were deliberately introduced by the Seamonkey team, which were carried over from Firefox/Gecko because they appeared to the Seamonkey team to be a good idea, and which were carried over because although the Seamonkey team viewed them as deleterious, they lacked the resources to replace them with something better (or to omit them completely). In my opinion the release notes are not the place to go into ANY diatribe about why a feature is there, was removed, or changed. It is there to describe WHAT changed, and in some cases (known issues) how to avoid some common problems/issues. The most likely place to get the information on what and why is the SeaMonkey bi-weekly meeting [and/or the meeting notes] or these newsgroups. If you see something in the release notes that you think warrants more explanation, a simple So, I don't understand, was something broken with the old bookmarks system? why did you guys change it so drastically? which would get a response [paraphrased] like Old code was unmaintained, we are using the Core code, and tied that into SeaMonkey in the best way we could That type of question gets a much clearer answer (in that regard) than a post like [exaggeration] I hate you all, you broke 'groupmarks'! You should all rot in hell. I'm transferring to chrome -- ~Justin Wood (Callek), SeaMonkey Council Member ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Sun, 07 Aug 2011 14:52:03 +0100, /Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)/: The problem is, the release notes do not provide any of this background -- we the users have no way of knowing which features were deliberately introduced by the Seamonkey team, which were carried over from Firefox/Gecko because they appeared to the Seamonkey team to be a good idea, and which were carried over because although the Seamonkey team viewed them as deleterious, they lacked the resources to replace them with something better (or to omit them completely). The release notes have noted every change introduced by the core platform, also. It is quite possible ignorant users don't bother to read and understand them extensively. It has also appeared to me users which skip versions don't bother to read the notes about the versions they skip. I admit to miss to read them often, too. The SeaMonkey team also badly needs contributors to the documentation. If you think you could help in that aspect - sign up for it. Another approach is, if you're an experienced user, to provide support to questions regarding you area of expertise, e.g. how have you managed to adapt the new bookmarks management (a.k.a. Places) mapping your old habits to the new facilities. The problem is very often there are no real support questions but random rants largely driven by user ignorance. Sun, 07 Aug 2011 14:52:03 +0100, /Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)/: Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: And finally, as Robert Kaiser have already pointed out, innovation-resistance won't make SeaMonkey any better. No, but it may help to make it less worse. Could you elaborate on that? Do you think the SeaMonkey developers could just learn the nuclear physics employed in the Mozilla platform core, just to be able to fix few of your pet peeves, then support largely outdated, unmaintained, having known security issues platform? Do you think having a really outdated browser component, in terms of features required by Web sites, will make SeaMonkey less worse? Less worse than what? Again, if you feel really strong you've once got a full featured and stable product - just revert to the last version of it. However I think you realize it has never been the case. -- Stanimir ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: Sat, 06 Aug 2011 21:47:15 +0100, /Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)/: Robert Kaiser wrote: Well, the mass of innovation-resistant people posting in those forums is at least one of the reasons why I moved away my focus from SeaMonkey and work on making Firefox more stable (in terms of not crashing) now. Understood, Robert. I can quite see that from the perspective of a developer, pushing the frontiers of science is a far more appealing prospect than a daily grind of bug-fixing and papering over the cracks. Unfortunately, from a user perspective, major change is rarely welcome, whilst increased security and incremental bug fixes are universally appreciated. Do you guys clearly understand the SeaMonkey developers don't get paid for their work on SeaMonkey? This guy understands it perfectly, and is very grateful to those volunteers for their work and efforts on what has, until recently, been a superb suite of software that has formed a central part of his everyday working regime. His concern is that this suite is now evolving in a way and a direction that will make it ever less usable. Once again - it is all volunteer effort! Do you understand the maintenance of SeaMonkey involves various compromises to fit with the ever evolving Mozilla platform? That may well be the reality of the situation, in which case we should be neither surprised nor disappointed to realise that what Seamonkey users want will be given far less weight than what Mozilla and the Firefox team want. Which does not make it any less of a shame. If you want completely feature frozen product - just use whatever version you've been satisfied with at some point in time. However you understand you can't use just that version because of necessary security fixes appearing in subsequent releases, or just because the browser or another component becomes too outdated to support required latest technologies. Note, the SeaMonkey developers don't develop these latest technologies and they can't provide security fixes to the platform on their own - we (the SeaMonkey users) are all dependent on the Mozilla platform (the development of which is mainly driven by the Firefox development). You can either continue to bitch, Putting a reasoned argument on behalf of those who prefer stability and security to non-essential change is not bitching; it is offering a constructive criticism that should be interpreted as such. or get your hands dirty by keeping track of how the Mozilla platform evolves, then get some technical knowledge to understand how this affects SeaMonkey, and then probably come up with some constructive comments... or code patches you're ready to maintain. Like most Seamonkey users, I prefer to leave code changes to those who know what they are doing; that should not make my input, as a Seamonkey user since day-1, any less valued. And I have already made some constructive comments, such as o Why are tabs now being forced on Seamonkey users ? o Why are Seamonkey users now restricted to three levels of zoom, compared to eight in earlier versions ? and o What is the expected/intended behaviour of the DOM inspector if a wildcard is used as the leading element of a value field in the Find dialogue ? , the latter two of which have elicited zero response. I don't know the answer to the DOM-inspector question, which is why I chose not to answer it when I read it. That said there is a newsgroup for DOM Inspector in these newsgroups (though much less frequented then SeaMonkey) and it *is* an on-topic question in our group here so I'm not about to ask you to switch either. :-) Though the Why ... three levels of zoom I recall us describing the why many times; Us mentioning a bug #; and (recently) one of our newsgroup readers actually FIXING that issue with code and a solution that satisfied our requirements of a localisable Zoom Menu. Sadly I cannot remember for certain which SeaMonkey version is the first to carry that fix, (I *think* 2.4 but I may be wrong) And lastly tabs, are not being forced on our users, they are being enabled by default. And the default menu orderings being changed to reflect that in some cases. [Users worldwide and across many browsers have a strong liking for tabs]. But any piece of our code that does not respect the tab prefs, is a bug and if we are made aware of it, we plan to fix it as soon as possible. [This means that if a tab is *forced* on you, not if we *allow* tabs to be chosen/used, fwiw] -- ~Justin Wood (Callek) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
WLS wrote: Daniel wrote: WLS wrote: Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: WLS wrote: Ray_Net wrote: WLS wrote: Ray_Net wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 05/08/2011 11:17, Bill Davidsen told the world: Some commercial users have complained that they can't do a QA cycle that often, and according to the reports were told that Firefox is not suitable for business use. I can dig out the link for anyone who hasn't learned to use a search engine, I saw it in either networkworld.com or slashdot. This guy at Ars Technica had a different spin on the issue: http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/06/firefox-update-policy-the-enterprise-is-wrong-not-mozilla.ars/ Where we can read: six week cycle is the goal. Therefore the end-user MUST install a new version each six weeks. He have other things to do This is why he will decide: I will stay on my version for at least one year ... i am not part of an SM testing group. You are a part of any browser testing group whether you want to be or not. Even the most stable releases have bugs, and new security holes are often found that need to be fixed. Some light reading for you if you so choose. http://blog.mozilla.com/channels/2011/07/18/every-six-weeks/ and since Firefox, Thunderbird and SeaMonkey are all Gecko based, this was an interesting read for me. At the end of the article, i read: Comments are closed. http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2011/08/02/extending-our-reach-lets-talk-gecko/ That was written by Mitchell Baker the Chair of the Mozilla Foundation. I still want a crank for my auto ignition, but I had to move on, to that danged remote starter thingy, I agree to start for the future but people need less steps to go to the future ... not a change every six weeks. If you want to miss out on 3D sound visualizers with WebGL and HTML5 Audio, that is your choice. I want all the latest new web innovations, whether I use them or not. I'd post a link to the demo, but it currently works in Firefox only. Come on SM developers get caught up! :) Huh, unless the web app is specifically targetting Firefox and ignoring everyone else, a similar-Gecko-Version SeaMonkey should work for those pure-web demo's. Can you provide a link to what is not working in SeaMonkey that Works in Firefox on a web demo level. ESPECIALLY if it is hosted by mozilla. Thanks, Just tested it in SeaMonkey and it works. Needing a Firefox browser was the author's words not mine. Sorry, I should have checked. Stating you needed a modern Gecko based browser may have been better. Here is the link if anyone wants to view the demo. http://robhawkes.github.com/webgl-html5-audio-visualiser/ Clicking on the link got me Jazz sounding music with a blank screen and Done SeaMonkey 2.2 on Mandriva Linux 2009.0 on a HP 6730b laptop. Do you have WebGL disabled in about:config? Really even if its enabled in about:config, it could be disabled on your system. Please check about:support (type that into your URL bar) and be sure you have SeaMonkey 2.1 or later. Next scroll to the bottom of the page and under Graphics, you should see data about WebGL, Direct2D etc., if it is listed as enabled there but failing to work properly, we (Gecko's graphics team) would love to know about it, and have a bug on file. And if there is a difference between *us* (SeaMonkey) and Firefox (of the same Gecko version) in the WebGL renderings, we (SeaMonkey Devs) want to know about it! -- ~Justin Wood (Callek) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: I don't know the answer to the DOM-inspector question, which is why I chose not to answer it when I read it. That said there is a newsgroup for DOM Inspector in these newsgroups (though much less frequented then SeaMonkey) and it *is* an on-topic question in our group here so I'm not about to ask you to switch either. :-) OK, understood. Do you happen to know if the relevant Usenet newsgroup is gatewayed into a mailing list, in which case I could subscribe to it and re-post my question there. Though the Why ... three levels of zoom I recall us describing the why many times; Us mentioning a bug #; and (recently) one of our newsgroup readers actually FIXING that issue with code and a solution that satisfied our requirements of a localisable Zoom Menu. Sadly I cannot remember for certain which SeaMonkey version is the first to carry that fix, (I *think* 2.4 but I may be wrong) I can trace no answer in this mailing list, Justin; is it possible that some answers are not making it through the Usenet news : mailing list gateway. And lastly tabs, are not being forced on our users, they are being enabled by default. And the default menu orderings being changed to reflect that in some cases. [Users worldwide and across many browsers have a strong liking for tabs]. But any piece of our code that does not respect the tab prefs, is a bug and if we are made aware of it, we plan to fix it as soon as possible. [This means that if a tab is *forced* on you, not if we *allow* tabs to be chosen/used, fwiw] As of 2.2, tabs were forced when one attempted to access either the Data Manager or the Add-ons manager via the Tools menu interface. If that behaviour is reverted in a more recent release, then I am both reassured and delighted. Philip Taylor ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 10:37:53 +0100, /Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)/: Putting a reasoned argument on behalf of those who prefer stability and security to non-essential change is not bitching; it is offering a constructive criticism that should be interpreted as such. The problem with the so called constructive criticism I see widespread in this group, is it doesn't help keeping the SeaMonkey product alive, most importantly, and then usable, both related to the Mozilla platform dependency remark I've given previously. if its widespread doesn't tell you something. Since the Mozilla all in one was broken up to SM FF, and TB. Mozilla doesn't give as rat's behind what happens to SM. Its what the users of SeaMonkey are interested SM. SM should cater to the users. If it was left to Mozilla Org. They would put a stake in SeaMonkey and burn it. have you read all the complaints from corporations that have left FireFox because of this rapid release Madness. Corporate users are the number one users of Mozilla products. And users are running away in droves. Only recently have Mozilla tried courting the Corporate users and figuring out a way to not release faster than Corporate IT's can keep up. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Sun, 07 Aug 2011 11:31:21 -0400, /PhillipJones/: Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: The problem with the so called constructive criticism I see widespread in this group, is it doesn't help keeping the SeaMonkey product alive, most importantly, and then usable, both related to the Mozilla platform dependency remark I've given previously. if its widespread doesn't tell you something. It tells me just that - lots of ignorant users ranting. Since the Mozilla all in one was broken up to SM FF, and TB. Mozilla doesn't give as rat's behind what happens to SM. Its what the users of SeaMonkey are interested SM. SM should cater to the users. Being longtime Mozilla Suite and SeaMonkey user I clearly see the SeaMonkey developers cater to the users, and I really dislike the unwarranted criticism going on. -- Stanimir ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 11:31:21 -0400, /PhillipJones/: Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: The problem with the so called constructive criticism I see widespread in this group, is it doesn't help keeping the SeaMonkey product alive, most importantly, and then usable, both related to the Mozilla platform dependency remark I've given previously. if its widespread doesn't tell you something. It tells me just that - lots of ignorant users ranting. Stanimir, I understand and respect your defence of the Seamonkey project team, but I really think you need to take on board the fact that when criticism is widespread, it is more often the case that the criticism is justified than that all those making the criticism are ill-informed. Philip Taylor ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 12:12:48 +0100, /Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)/: I agree that some of the critiques have lacked focus; but in general, I believe that those who are most vocal in criticising the current changes in Seamonkey development and release are also amongst those who are most deeply concerned that Seamonkey /should/ remain alive and usable : they are, in the main, people who (for better or worse) have come to depend on Seamonkey, and who are genuinely afraid that recent changes do not bode well for the future. The only thing I'm genuinely afraid of is that the last few people who care about, and have enough knowledge to develop and maintain SeaMonkey might loose interest because of so much unreasonable criticism going on. From my point of view every change to the SeaMonkey 2+ versions is well justified and reflects the capabilities of the SeaMonkey team. This is what I've been trying to explain previously, and further below. What we need (IMHO) is a genuine debate between users and developers; a little less sniping, and a better appreciation by each side of the wishes of, and constraints on, the other side, would go a long way towards ensuring a viable future for this most valuable suite of software. Your reply leads me to think you don't really understand the status quo, although you state so. Most of the features people vocally criticize the SeaMonkey developers about are not written by the SeaMonkey devs themselves, but by the core Mozilla platform team. The SeaMonkey devs are far too few in order to provide maintenance of old code, they have not really written, or to implement it anew, on top of the evolving Mozilla platform. The SeaMonkey devs try their best to preserve much of the original Mozilla Suite features perceived as most important to people, but it is not always possible because of major core changes introduced by the platform. I guess this is something vocally criticizing people in here can't really understand, being not interested in how the Mozilla platform evolves, and then how it affects the SeaMonkey project, which apart from some hardware infrastructure is not sponsored by the Mozilla organization in any way (as far as I'm aware). And finally, as Robert Kaiser have already pointed out, innovation-resistance won't make SeaMonkey any better. Its no point in point out anything. Everything is set in stone. everyone refuses to listen. I don't like the route FF has gone in. But when you get to the point you kill off Internet plugins that have word for ages and still should work. That the point I stop upgrading. With 2.3 I can't even view large sections of my own website. and I set up so it 4.0.1 Strict. I use a lot of PDF's and no pdf's will work. Same thing happened on Safari 5.1 so I went back to 5.0.5 the last that worked. So I am sticking wit 2.0.14 until it no longer works. Messing with Pluggins is a no no. Extension Fine if they are updated. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: I don't know the answer to the DOM-inspector question, which is why I chose not to answer it when I read it. That said there is a newsgroup for DOM Inspector in these newsgroups (though much less frequented then SeaMonkey) and it *is* an on-topic question in our group here so I'm not about to ask you to switch either. :-) OK, understood. Do you happen to know if the relevant Usenet newsgroup is gatewayed into a mailing list, in which case I could subscribe to it and re-post my question there. Yes there is: https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-dom-inspector Though the Why ... three levels of zoom I recall us describing the why many times; Us mentioning a bug #; and (recently) one of our newsgroup readers actually FIXING that issue with code and a solution that satisfied our requirements of a localisable Zoom Menu. Sadly I cannot remember for certain which SeaMonkey version is the first to carry that fix, (I *think* 2.4 but I may be wrong) I can trace no answer in this mailing list, Justin; is it possible that some answers are not making it through the Usenet news : mailing list gateway. That is certainly possible, I have known of similar issues in the past, but I have no easy way to identify such an issue happening (and I'm horrid at trying to search my news archives -- so must rely strictly on my own memory.) -- ~Justin Wood (Callek) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3 [Tabbed UI Features]
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: As of 2.2, tabs were forced when one attempted to access either the Data Manager or the Add-ons manager via the Tools menu interface. If that behaviour is reverted in a more recent release, then I am both reassured and delighted. Hrm, my memory on our behavior here is apparently wrong, (I just tested in my open 2.2, and I could not find a setting to cause the data manager to open in a new window [or reuse a non-empty current tab] via the preferences window) Can you please either CC me to an existing bug on this, or file a new one? I will plan to look into it, and drive it forward as soon as I can. [I am busy so I have no usable ETA on this, but happy to help drive it if someone else wants to code it] With pleasure (it will be a new bug; I have so far held back from filing bugs, preferring to find out from the list whether or not they are already known). I personally use tabs, and prefer them so I apologize for not catching this before my latest reply to you, (I'll also plan to test in our trunk builds before investing time in writing code, but I try and use our latest beta's as my regular, except for mail/news where I use our latest stable) No problem : many thanks for your most positive response. Philip Taylor ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Sun, 07 Aug 2011 11:41:56 -0400, /PhillipJones/: But when you get to the point you kill off Internet plugins that have word for ages and still should work. That the point I stop upgrading. With 2.3 I can't even view large sections of my own website. and I set up so it 4.0.1 Strict. I use a lot of PDF's and no pdf's will work. Could be more specific - which plugins, PDF? Should I explain you personally, while I've already stated it number of times in this thread, SeaMonkey developers haven't killed any plugins themselves? Further, what strict HTML doesn't work with SeaMonkey 2.3? Note PDF is not a Web media and it's all up to the plugin. Looking at your site I have no problem with viewing the PDFs inline using SeaMonkey 2.3 (Windows 7, having Adobe Reader X installed). You could either configure the Adobe Acrobat plugin to not open PDF documents in the browser, or you could disable it, causing the PDFs always opened by external application (or just saved locally). Same thing happened on Safari 5.1 so I went back to 5.0.5 the last that worked. So I am sticking wit 2.0.14 until it no longer works. Messing with Pluggins is a no no. Extension Fine if they are updated. Your problems really seem like exception, not caused by SeaMonkey. -- Stanimir ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: While the widespreading could be a symptom to a problem, I've been observing this group long enough to deduce most of the criticism seen is just ignorant babble. OK, in view of your long association with, and observation of, this group, may I ask you one question ? Has there been equally widespread (and ill-informed ?) criticism following each major release of Seamonkey, or has there been an apparent increase in the level of criticism following any particular recent release or group of releases ? Philip Taylor ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: While the widespreading could be a symptom to a problem, I've been observing this group long enough to deduce most of the criticism seen is just ignorant babble. OK, in view of your long association with, and observation of, this group, may I ask you one question ? Has there been equally widespread (and ill-informed ?) criticism following each major release of Seamonkey, or has there been an apparent increase in the level of criticism following any particular recent release or group of releases ? In my [personal] observations the releases of 2.1/2.2 have gotten FAR fewer complaints and issues, as compared to the earlier releases. And in fact have garnished many [more than usual] WONDERFUL, THANK YOU's as well. The issues one encounters will certain feel inflated if its an issue you care about; which is why in any public fora used by developers of a product I will first have a reason to post, then *always* read, take a few days to recoup my thoughts *then* post, so I can get my bearings right while being as constructive as possible. Sometimes that is hard as both a user of a product, and as a developer in these forums. It is hard sometimes to keep yourself objective when you are passionate about a project/idea. Of course it is that same passion that drives you (and me) to use and care enough to communicate about SeaMonkey, even when we [plural: many] hold different views. -- ~Justin Wood (Callek) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
PhillipJones wrote: Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 12:12:48 +0100, /Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)/: I agree that some of the critiques have lacked focus; but in general, I believe that those who are most vocal in criticising the current changes in Seamonkey development and release are also amongst those who are most deeply concerned that Seamonkey /should/ remain alive and usable : they are, in the main, people who (for better or worse) have come to depend on Seamonkey, and who are genuinely afraid that recent changes do not bode well for the future. The only thing I'm genuinely afraid of is that the last few people who care about, and have enough knowledge to develop and maintain SeaMonkey might loose interest because of so much unreasonable criticism going on. From my point of view every change to the SeaMonkey 2+ versions is well justified and reflects the capabilities of the SeaMonkey team. This is what I've been trying to explain previously, and further below. What we need (IMHO) is a genuine debate between users and developers; a little less sniping, and a better appreciation by each side of the wishes of, and constraints on, the other side, would go a long way towards ensuring a viable future for this most valuable suite of software. Your reply leads me to think you don't really understand the status quo, although you state so. Most of the features people vocally criticize the SeaMonkey developers about are not written by the SeaMonkey devs themselves, but by the core Mozilla platform team. The SeaMonkey devs are far too few in order to provide maintenance of old code, they have not really written, or to implement it anew, on top of the evolving Mozilla platform. The SeaMonkey devs try their best to preserve much of the original Mozilla Suite features perceived as most important to people, but it is not always possible because of major core changes introduced by the platform. I guess this is something vocally criticizing people in here can't really understand, being not interested in how the Mozilla platform evolves, and then how it affects the SeaMonkey project, which apart from some hardware infrastructure is not sponsored by the Mozilla organization in any way (as far as I'm aware). And finally, as Robert Kaiser have already pointed out, innovation-resistance won't make SeaMonkey any better. Its no point in point out anything. Everything is set in stone. everyone refuses to listen. I don't like the route FF has gone in. But when you get to the point you kill off Internet plugins that have word for ages and still should work. That the point I stop upgrading. With 2.3 I can't even view large sections of my own website. and I set up so it 4.0.1 Strict. I use a lot of PDF's and no pdf's will work. Same thing happened on Safari 5.1 so I went back to 5.0.5 the last that worked. So I am sticking wit 2.0.14 until it no longer works. Messing with Pluggins is a no no. Extension Fine if they are updated. I had to copy and paste the symbolic link to the PDF plugin, and PDF's work just fine now. I may be making Summer Spaghetti Salad soon! It's the mp3 that doesn't in my 32-bit installation. I guess I'll have to find that symbolic link and copy it also. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Sun, 07 Aug 2011 17:18:58 +0100, /Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)/: OK, in view of your long association with, and observation of, this group, may I ask you one question ? Has there been equally widespread (and ill-informed ?) criticism following each major release of Seamonkey, or has there been an apparent increase in the level of criticism following any particular recent release or group of releases ? No, the criticism level has not increased in my opinion, although I've seen few statements it has been higher after 2.1 just came out compared to when 2.0 just came out. In my memories the SeaMonkey 2.0 release brought much more rants (being such a great change over the 1.* versions) than what we see today. I usually don't get into such discussions, regarding how well the few SeaMonkey developers meet the many regular user expectations and whether they do really care about users, but this time I've felt really strong about expressing my dissent with users which don't appear to stop spreading FUD, which has negative impact, especially on newcomers. -- Stanimir ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
On 08/07/2011 08:27 AM, Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: WLS wrote: Daniel wrote: WLS wrote: ... Here is the link if anyone wants to view the demo. http://robhawkes.github.com/webgl-html5-audio-visualiser/ Clicking on the link got me Jazz sounding music with a blank screen and Done SeaMonkey 2.2 on Mandriva Linux 2009.0 on a HP 6730b laptop. Do you have WebGL disabled in about:config? Really even if its enabled in about:config, it could be disabled on your system. Please check about:support (type that into your URL bar) and be sure you have SeaMonkey 2.1 or later. Next scroll to the bottom of the page and under Graphics, you should see data about WebGL, Direct2D etc., if it is listed as enabled there but failing to work properly, we (Gecko's graphics team) would love to know about it, and have a bug on file. And if there is a difference between *us* (SeaMonkey) and Firefox (of the same Gecko version) in the WebGL renderings, we (SeaMonkey Devs) want to know about it! Same as Daniel. Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:6.0) Gecko/20110731 Firefox/6.0 SeaMonkey/2.3 From about:support Graphics Adapter DescriptionNVIDIA Corporation -- Quadro4 900 XGL/AGP/SSE2Driver Version1.5.8 NVIDIA 96.43.19WebGL RendererBlocked for your graphics driver version. Try updating your graphics driver to version NVIDIA 257.21 or newer.GPU Accelerated Windows0/6. Blocked for your graphics driver version. Try updating your graphics driver to version NVIDIA 257.21 or newer. Seems to be the Windows Vista syndrome... fill the landfills with old hardware so that you can experience the latest greatest. Further, NVIDIA 257.21 doesn't work on Quadro4 cards. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
NoOp wrote: Seems to be the Windows Vista syndrome... fill the landfills with old hardware so that you can experience the latest greatest. Further, NVIDIA 257.21 doesn't work on Quadro4 cards. Not restricted to Vista; I too see nothing under Win/XP;SP3. Adapter DescriptionATI Radeon X300/X550/X1050 Series Vendor ID 1002 Device ID 5b60 Adapter RAMUnknown Adapter Driversati2dvag Driver Version 8.593.100.0 Driver Date2-10-2010 Direct2D Enabled Blocked on your graphics driver. Try updating your graphics driver to version 10.6 or newer. DirectWrite Enabledfalse (0.0.0.0, font cache n/a) WebGL Renderer (WebGL unavailable) GPU Accelerated Windows0/15 Philip Taylor ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: new 2.3
Daniel wrote: Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 10:37:53 +0100, /Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)/: Putting a reasoned argument on behalf of those who prefer stability and security to non-essential change is not bitching; it is offering a constructive criticism that should be interpreted as such. The problem with the so called constructive criticism I see widespread in this group, is it doesn't help keeping the SeaMonkey product alive, most importantly, and then usable, both related to the Mozilla platform dependency remark I've given previously. I agree that some of the critiques have lacked focus; but in general, I believe that those who are most vocal in criticising the current changes in Seamonkey development and release are also amongst those who are most deeply concerned that Seamonkey /should/ remain alive and usable : they are, in the main, people who (for better or worse) have come to depend on Seamonkey, and who are genuinely afraid that recent changes do not bode well for the future. What we need (IMHO) is a genuine debate between users and developers; a little less sniping, and a better appreciation by each side of the wishes of, and constraints on, the other side, would go a long way towards ensuring a viable future for this most valuable suite of software. Philip Taylor Philip, perhaps it might help to consider the SeaMonkey developers not as a group of developers who are trying to produce a product that will sweep all before them, but as a group of *USERS* who are trying to produce a product that will do what *they* want, and you and I get to use the result of their efforts for free. If they do the development you/I want, great. If not, you/I may need to find some other solution! Third. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
