date:20050808





Hi Clark,

Welcome if this is your first post. We all appreciate a sense of humor. However, there is at least one perhaps more than one Viet Nam vets here, possible from both sides. Napalm jokes probably are not too funny. But, heck how would you know that. Welcome, learn and enjoy the dialog. 

Tom Irwin, recent new memeber


From: clark creamer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 01:17:46 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question was The myths of HiroshimaFirst postIf you're talking WWII style or Vietnam style flamethrower then you'retalking Napalm...heh.~ClarkOn 8/7/05, Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:  Hi all,   I passed by the local used everything store and saw an old style blowtorch. It looked like it was in working order and cost next to nothing. I immediately though now that would make a nice preheater to boil off any excess water in my waste vegetable oil. If this is in the archives I´m sorry but it´s early and I haven´t had my morning cup yet. What the heck did they use to fuel these suckers? Do you think it can run on BioD or glycerine byproduct?   Thanks,   Tom From: Garth  Kim Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:40:16 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima  Greetings Tom,  Yes, many of us would not be here. Canadian forces were also training for that invasion. I was always taught that it was the code of death before dishonor that made the bombing necessary. I am not saying that is correct, but I wonder how scared of Russia anyone would have been by that time in the war. As I understand it, one of the things the Russian people hated America for was the long wait before they joined, which allowed Russia to be seriously depleted. I do understand that the Japanese were already commandeering cooking pots etc. for metal to make weapons, so they must have known the end was in sight, but that had been going on for long enough to scare many people into believing they would not surrender, period.   It is easy to start myths during war time, people are so scared and the average person is not told much of the truth for good reasons, many times.  I see it today, so many people are so scared of terrorism and have no idea of how it started. How does one educate a population that is now in it's second or third generation of ignorance of history, science, math, philosophy and common sense?  Bright Blessings, Kim  At 01:23 PM 8/5/2005, you wrote:  Hi All,  Although I'm in agreement about the Enola Gay exhibit, I will have to disagree about the use of the bombs. As slightly more modern barbarians we really have no idea of the mindset of Japan's WWII government. Perhaps Keith can give his insights since he lives close by. My reading of that history is that Japan's military had a stranglehold on the government. That their way was the Bushido way. There's a lot of death before dishonor in that line of thinking. My father related many stories to me of the kamakazi attacks during the invasion of Okinawa. That they were ineffective does not discount their willingness to die. There were a lot fewer prisoners taken in the Pacific war. Some of that was certainly racism on our side but a fairly good piece of it wasn't. I've spoken with many veterans from that campaign. Many reasonable men told me quite frankly that the Japanese would rather die than surrender. If they could die taking a few of their enemy with them all the better. If this willingness to die was prevelent in their armed forces I think one can make the jump that if the home islands were attacked that our casualties would be very high. Perhaps not the million so often quoted but if it was only a quarter of that, many of us who are currently alive would never have been born. My father was in training for the invasion when the bombs were dropped. He told me everyone on board his troop transport breathed a sigh of relief when they realized they would not have to invade. I personally have no use for nuclear technology or nuclear weapons and am fully against them. But the truth be told, I'm here today because they were used and we haven't had a world war since thier invention.  my two cents for the day,  Tom Irwin   From: Appal Energy [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:21:01 -0300 Subject: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima  http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-bird5aug05,0,760322.storyThe myths of Hiroshima  By Kai Bird and Martin J. Sherwin, KAI BIRD and MARTIN J. SHERWIN are  coauthors of "American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert  Oppenheimer," published earlier this year by Knopf.  SIXTY YEARS ago tomorrow, an atomic bomb was dropped without warning on  the center of the Japanese city of Hiroshima. One hundred and forty  thousand people were killed, more than 95% of them women and

Re: [Biofuel] New question was The myths of Hiroshima





Hi Busy,

That´s what I was afraid of. I have a feeling BioD is out, definitely the glycerine by-product as a fuel. Maybe 95% ethanol.

Thanks,

Tom Irwin


From: Busyditch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 02:52:39 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question was The myths of HiroshimaIf its one of those old brass hand-held blow torches it uses kerosene.- Original Message - From: "clark creamer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:17 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] New question was The myths of Hiroshima First post If you're talking WWII style or Vietnam style flamethrower then you're talking Napalm...heh. ~Clark On 8/7/05, Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:   Hi all,   I passed by the local used everything store and saw an old styleblowtorch.  It looked like it was in working order and cost next to nothing. I  immediately though now that would make a nice preheater to boil off any  excess water in my waste vegetable oil. If this is in the archives I´msorry  but it´s early and I haven´t had my morning cup yet. What the heck didthey  use to fuel these suckers? Do you think it can run on BioD or glycerine  byproduct?   Thanks,   Tom  From: Garth  Kim Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org  Sent: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:40:16 -0300  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima   Greetings Tom,   Yes, many of us would not be here. Canadian forces were also trainingfor  that invasion. I was always taught that it was the code of death before  dishonor that made the bombing necessary. I am not saying that iscorrect,  but I wonder how scared of Russia anyone would have been by that time inthe  war. As I understand it, one of the things the Russian people hatedAmerica  for was the long wait before they joined, which allowed Russia to be  seriously depleted. I do understand that the Japanese were already  commandeering cooking pots etc. for metal to make weapons, so they musthave  known the end was in sight, but that had been going on for long enoughto  scare many people into believing they would not surrender, period.   It is easy to start myths during war time, people are so scared and the  average person is not told much of the truth for good reasons, manytimes.  I see it today, so many people are so scared of terrorism and have noidea  of how it started. How does one educate a population that is now init's  second or third generation of ignorance of history, science, math,  philosophy and common sense?   Bright Blessings,  Kim   At 01:23 PM 8/5/2005, you wrote:   Hi All,   Although I'm in agreement about the Enola Gay exhibit, I will have to  disagree about the use of the bombs. As slightly more modern barbarianswe  really have no idea of the mindset of Japan's WWII government. PerhapsKeith  can give his insights since he lives close by. My reading of thathistory is  that Japan's military had a stranglehold on the government. That theirway  was the Bushido way. There's a lot of death before dishonor in that lineof  thinking. My father related many stories to me of the kamakazi attacks  during the invasion of Okinawa. That they were ineffective does notdiscount  their willingness to die. There were a lot fewer prisoners taken in the  Pacific war. Some of that was certainly racism on our side but a fairlygood  piece of it wasn't. I've spoken with many veterans from that campaign.Many  reasonable men told me quite frankly that the Japanese would rather diethan  surrender. If they could die taking a few of their enemy with them allthe  better. If this willingness to die was prevelent in their armed forces I  think one can make the jump that if the home islands were attacked thatour  casualties would be very high. Perhaps not the million so often quotedbut  if it was only a quarter of that, many of us who are currently alivewould  never have been born. My father was in training for the invasion whenthe  bombs were dropped. He told me everyone on board his troop transport  breathed a sigh of relief when they realized they would not have toinvade.  I personally have no use for nuclear technology or nuclear weapons andam  fully against them. But the truth be told, I'm here today because theywere  used and we haven't had a world war since thier invention.   my two cents for the day,   Tom Irwin     From: Appal Energy [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org  Sent: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:21:01 -0300  Subject: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima  http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-bird5aug05,0,760322.story The myths of Hiroshima   By Kai Bird and Martin J. Sherwin, KAI BIRD and MARTIN J. SHERWIN are  coauthors of "American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert  Oppenheimer," published earlier this year by Knopf.   SIXTY YEARS ago tomorrow, an atomic bomb was dropped without warning

Re: [Biofuel] New question


Hi all,

I passed by the local used everything store and saw an old style blowtorch.


Pressure-type, you have to pump it up? There's a tray right under the 
burner that you fill with alcohol first, light the alcohol to 
pre-heat the burner unit, then just before the alcohol flame goes 
out, close the release valve and pump up the pressure. You'll need 
prickers to clean the nozzle hole.


It looked like it was in working order and cost next to nothing. I 
immediately though now that would make a nice preheater to boil off 
any excess water in my waste vegetable oil. If this is in the 
archives I¬¥m sorry but it¬¥s early and I haven¬¥t had my morning 
cup yet. What the heck did they use to fuel these suckers?


Kerosene.


Do you think it can run on BioD or glycerine byproduct?


Probably on biodiesel, definitely not on the byproduct. It should be 
the same mechanism as this stove:


We've been using biodiesel in this kerosene pressure stove for 
nearly two years. See one burning biodiesel here. 
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor10.html#stove These 
stoves are common in 3rd World countries (roarers), but they're 
rare in industrialised countries. Ours came from India and it cost 
US$8. Here are some stoves you can buy on the Internet, but not for 
$8.

-- From: Lamps and stoves
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lamps

Best

Keith




Thanks,

Tom




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Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

*Part* of the German command was looking for a way out - look what 
happened to Rommel.  Didn't change the war much.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


*Part* of the Japanese government was trying to find a way to surrender,
before the atom bombs.

Part of the U.S. Navy command held the view that no further military
operations were necessary and Japan would be compelled to surrender if
the Allies just waited. Most of the U.S. Army and government felt that an
invasion was necessary. It's not clear that the U.S. population would
have accepted just hanging around fully mobilized at war waiting for
six months or a year until the Japanese government nd army *as a whole*
concluded that it had no alternative to unconditional surrender.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


On Sun, 7 Aug 2005, Chris wrote:

 


Japan was trying to surrender.  The bomb wasn't for Japan, it was to send a
message to the other superpower, the Soviet Union.  It also was used in part
to justify the largest military expense in the history of the nation.

Chris K
Cayce, SC
   



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Re: [Biofuel] washing?

I always wash *and* neutralize the leftover lye - but then I'm pretty 
paranoid.  Some of the gurus I met at Piedmont don't, others swear you 
have to.


the skapegoat wrote:

The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell book 
seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even detrimental.  
I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion.  I'm 
sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel. 
 
Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel 
instead of just washing it away?  I know this still leaves excess 
hydroxides that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the 
number of washes necessary and you might be able to save some of your 
methanol.


Send instant messages to your online friends 
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com




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Re: [Biofuel] Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in history

"I grow a little weary of revisionist history."

Yes. Those pesky researchers and their new discoveries. Why can't we just keep history the way "the victors" wrote it.

"Hirohito, Hitler, and even our ally Stalin were noton the humanitarian side of the leger."

So this is where I (and perhaps some others in this group) struggle to understand. The statement itself, prompts some questions. When one judgesanother's humanity, it helps to have some references.

The Third Reich was not a humanitarian state because,during it's shortreign, it was responsible for the violent deaths of tens of millions ofpeople in the pursuit of empire. So far, so good. Here are some other questions that (IMO) help paint a bigger picture of the "humanity" expressed by a particular government..

Canan empirebe definedas a show of vast political control by military or economic means?

Can the acts that causesuffering among the inhabitants ofan empire bethe result of both what it does and doesn't do?

Can the acts that causesuffering among the inhabitants ofan empire bethe result ofwhat itcanbut, won'tdo because it doesn't contributetoward the building of an empire?

If you answered "yes" toall three questions, you've effectively described the US government. When answering "yes" to the second and third question, you've prompted the next question which tries toevaluate the amount of suffering caused byit'sactions or in-actions:

** Dysentery, starvation(due to ten years of sanctions) andwar in Iraq
** AIDS in Africa (restricting medication and pursuing legal action against patent infringement)
** Poverty in Haitiand numerous other countries (keeping the outsourcing of cheap labor alive)
** Corporate dictatorshipsthat spread terror in countries like Columbia, etc, etc.

These are only a few examples thatoccuras a result of the actions of our last three or fouradministrations. When one considers the violent acts committed by our government during it's entire history,it gets much more disturbing.

So, is it the brutally violent acts of a particular short lived regime or themore covert acts committed methodically and sometimes less directly (i.e. proxy wars) over a period of many decades which is less humane? More importantly, whoplays the roll of aggressor, reactionaryand victim will change as the propaganda of it's time served it's purpose and the revisionists can go to work.

Mike

Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi All,

I grow a little weary of revisionist history. Yes, there was a political side to the war. When hasnÂ´t there been. Yes, it was brutal and callous. Again, when hasnÂ´t it been. Yes, the history is written by the victors. But letÂ´s not forget that weÂ´re not talking about the best humans ever created on the other side. Hirohito, Hitler, and even our ally Stalin were noton the humanitarian side of the leger. That Stalin had his eye on empire and extending his power is undeniable. If the bombs limited that and ended the war without invasion I still feel they fall into the catagory of necessary evil. That the Japanese people sufferedis also undeniable but thereÂ´s a lesson for todayÂ´s problems in their past suffring. DonÂ´t let your leaders do evil things or else you, as mostly innocent civilians, are going to pay a heavy price. My countrymen would be wise to learn this valuable lesson.

Sincerely,

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Re: [Biofuel] New question





Hi all and Keith,

You know I only examined it a minute or two so I can't tell what type it is. But if it has the possibility of using BioD it was so cheap I'll go buy it and play with it some.

Many thanks,

Tom Irwin



From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:56:12 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New questionHi all,I passed by the local used everything store and saw an old style blowtorch.Pressure-type, you have to pump it up? There's a tray right under the burner that you fill with alcohol first, light the alcohol to pre-heat the burner unit, then just before the alcohol flame goes out, close the release valve and pump up the pressure. You'll need "prickers" to clean the nozzle hole.It looked like it was in working order and cost next to nothing. I immediately though now that would make a nice preheater to boil off any excess water in my waste vegetable oil. If this is in the archives I¬¥m sorry but it¬¥s early and I haven¬¥t had my morning cup yet. What the heck did they use to fuel these suckers?Kerosene.Do you think it can run on BioD or glycerine byproduct?Probably on biodiesel, definitely not on the byproduct. It should be the same mechanism as this stove:"We've been using biodiesel in this kerosene pressure stove for nearly two years. See one burning biodiesel here. These stoves are common in 3rd World countries ("roarers"), but they're rare in industrialised countries. Ours came from India and it cost US$8. Here are some stoves you can buy on the Internet, but not for $8."-- From: "Lamps and stoves"http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lampsBestKeithThanks,Tom___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] Dirty Oil sand, shale, gas coal

2005-08-08 Thread marilyn

Roger Billings had a company in Utah in the 1980s that ran cars 
on hydrogen. He ran his first  car on hydrogen in the 1960s. After 
dropping the project for a while, he is at it again. His website is

http://www.hydrogennow.org/index.html

I haven't heard a word about him in the press, just the 
administration mantra that says hydrogen is 20 years down the 
road. Anyone know anything about his work?

Marilyn



Despite Honda's triumphant presentation of the first fuel cell 
family
 - Jon and Sandy Spallino and daughters last month took to the 
highways of
 California in their new Pounds 1m hydrogen Honda - the 
company won't have one
 for sale until 2020 at the earliest. 

 Hydrogen has been the fuel of choice for US energy 
futurologists and
 environmentalists since President Bush announced two years 
ago that
 he wanted children born then to be able to put their first car keys 
in
 a hydrogen car. Every big carmaker is working on hydrogen 
technology. 

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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood using mushrooms

2005-08-08 Thread Ken Gotberg

I was reading just yesterday about using white rot fungus in the form of mushrooms of the common button type as selective for lignin and leaving the cellulose and hemicellulose alone as part of a pulping scheme. The cellulose and maybe the hemicellulose can then be fermented to ethanol. (Another approach is using a MoS2 catalyst.) It was a PhD thesis, but I dont have it with me. I can look it up if interested.

Ken

Brian Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Fredthanks for the input, even if it does pop another bubble, dammit.
Mushrooms like the same sugars that yeasts like. So a lot of what you
are trying to get from the wood is what the fungi consumes.

I have cultured both yeasts and fungi and had to have completely
seperate laminar stations because there was cross contamination going
out of control.

From what I have heard about most brewing systems it seems like I better build a super clean laboratory to do my experiments in. I have an insulated semi-trailer that my buddy was using to grow edible mushrooms in. I was thinking I might strip it back to the cleanable fiberglass walls and washable steel floor and try my hand at brewing something easier like corn or fruit just to get some experience with all this scientific stuff. Right now the trailer houses my electronic workshop and a small jewelry workbench. Whatever I do, it seems plain to me that change is in the air.
If you can find the fungi and make it work, I would be happy to see the results.

fredNow that you bring up this point about yeasts and fungi eating sugar the same stuff needed to ferment, it occurs to me that these fungi folks were unaware that I was trying to ferment the sawdust. Their original plan as I recall was to help my friend who owns a small sawmill to dispose of sawdust. Oh well at this point it is still in the thinking about it stage. I will gladly leave some of this learning the hard way stuff for next season, or as they say around here Mañana I will apprise you all of the mushroom experiment as it develops.Brian Rodgers ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel
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[Biofuel] Terrorism and American freedom

2005-08-08 Thread Rich3800

I think Bush is trying to confuse the issue. The terrorists(?) and would-be terrorists don't hate our way of life but they do hate the influence that big American multinationals exert over their lives. As far they (terrorists and would-be terrorists) are concerned, American multinationals represent mainstream America, which is, of course, false.
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Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

"*Part* of the German command was looking for a way out - look what happened to Rommel. Didn't change the war much."

There are alot of "what if's" that can be discussed to exhaustion. It may seem like a waste of time. However, I'd prefer to do that than focus entirely on the outcome and say "look what happened".

The combination of Hitler's physical dependence on amphetamines, the onset of ALS and the other plots to remove him from power might have taken Normandy off the minds of military strategists if the time line had onlychanged a little. Rommel was just a part of the story of how things were coming apart inside the Reich.

Thereare similaritiesbetween how the war ended in both Japan and Germany. Both the incendiary attacks on Germany and the nuclear attacks on Japan (both of little military value) came at the end of the war, where there was a growing consensus in both theaters that the end was near and where the vast majority of deaths from those attacks were civilian.

Mass murder for the sake of spreading fear in the minds of the enemy? I think Todd said it best: "if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck..."

MikeMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
*Part* of the German command was looking for a way out - look what happened to Rommel. Didn't change the war much.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:*Part* of the Japanese government was trying to find a way to surrender,before the atom bombs.Part of the U.S. Navy command held the view that no further militaryoperations were necessary and Japan would be compelled to surrender ifthe Allies just waited. Most of the U.S. Army and government felt that aninvasion was necessary. It's not clear that the U.S. population wouldhave accepted just hanging around fully mobilized at war waiting forsix months or a year until the Japanese government nd army *as a whole*concluded that it had no alternative to unconditional surrender.Doug WoodardSt. Catharines, Ontario,
CanadaOn Sun, 7 Aug 2005, Chris wrote: Japan was trying to surrender. The bomb wasn't for Japan, it was to send amessage to the other superpower, the Soviet Union. It also was used in partto justify the largest military expense in the history of the nation.Chris KCayce, SC ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing
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Re: [Biofuel] Terrorism and American freedom


Absolutely.

By the way, have you ever noticed how the issues can be confused when a culture insists on categorizing and labeling every political dogma on earth, and then force you to subscribe to one?

democrat, republican, liberal, neocon, communist, ultra(right, left, orthodox, etc.), minimalist, post-millinialist, non-millinialist,terrorist, freedom fighter, etc, etc, etc,

Mike
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think Bush is trying to confuse the issue. The terrorists(?) and would-be terrorists don't hate our way of life but they do hate the influence that big American multinationals exert over their lives. As far they (terrorists and would-be terrorists) are concerned, American multinationals represent mainstream America, which is, of course, false. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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[Biofuel] Improving Ethanol Distilation Efficiency

2005-08-08 Thread Michael


08-08-05 on Ethanol

It takes approximately the same energy to produce ethanol, as you get out of 
using ethanol.  There are quibbles about how much gain or loss, but the 
major use of energy, is from the distillation process to make ethanol 
usable.  The distillation process is the major loss of energy.


See:  http://www.journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html on current ethanol 
energy efficiency.


So, what kind of engineering would solve this challenge?  One way is to use 
the sugar cane residue, like in Brasil, for the energy to distill the 
ethanol.  Another is to use the residue to make even more ethanol to 
distill.  Neither of these makes enough of an order of magnitude increase in 
energy, but they help.  The largest gain I can see now is to engineer the 
use of solar energy to evaporate the ethanol so that the ethanol can be 
condensed by the cooling available in the ground.


Using the ground to cool and or derive the cooling to condense is a low tech 
and low cost way that over time can become higher tech.  The same is true of 
solar designs.  Cost effectivity is our driver for our designs.


My vision is for a World Wide Web Online Project, to design several 
alternative solar/ground ethanol distillation designs, through an open 
source process.  This is a way for farms to become self sufficient all our 
our world and to sell us the excess ethanol for fuel, just like with food.


E-Mail me at address on my card when you are interested in contributing your 
design and other talents.


See http://RecoveryByDiscovery.com/Ethanol.htm


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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood using mushrooms

2005-08-08 Thread bob allen


Howdy Ken,

Ken Gotberg wrote:
I was reading just yesterday about using white rot fungus in the form of 
mushrooms of the common button type as selective for lignin and leaving 
the cellulose and hemicellulose alone as part of a pulping scheme.  The 
cellulose and maybe the hemicellulose can then be fermented to ethanol.


Actually you must hydrolyze the cellulose to simple sugars before yeast 
fermentation.  Getting the lignin out is an important step, but 
hydrolysis of the cellulose is no trivial matter.


Is there any commercial wood to ethanol production? It's been talked 
about for decades  but is it actually happening?






--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly and jellybiofuel

2005-08-08 Thread Pannirselvam P.V

 Hi D Giorchino

   The mess you have made can be  a new dicovery of solid biofuel .
jelly solid ethanol has good market  as  the  future biofuel for rural
areas as  identified by UN.
   Try to  acess about the possbility of mixing your mess with 
ethanol jelly fuel.Thus the big problem of disposing the mess can be
an aportunity to  make business.

Fell free to have help from this list as  all here very good  experts

Yours truely
Pannirselvam P.V
Federal university ,Natal.RN
Brasil
 

On 8/7/05, DERICK GIORCHINO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Keith More
 Thanks for you response.
  I tried the world famous chop stick titration technique. Wow what a
 difference in my titration  #.
 I did a 1 ltr test in a soda bottle, with excellent result almost instantly.
 But here is where I got into trouble.
  The next batch was 20 liters I had some methoxide mixed from a prior batch
 that was also a failure and I couldn't figure what to do with the toxic mix
 so I tried to dilute it to 10 g.p. liter. I did my mixing of the 20 liters.
 As it cooled it turned into what looks like lard. I felt that I may have
 overdosed it. So I then took some test bottles and put 20% failure oil and
 75% fresh wvo set it in the sun to melt/ liquefy. (105 deg F) shook it hard
 also a 50/50 mix in the hot state it seamed to separate better 25/75 than
 the 50/50 but as the sun went down and it cooled the 25/75 started to jell
 and the glycerol layer vanished but the 50/50 looked much better with a
 glycerol layer jelled at the bottom. I m not asking for a fix. But is the
 jelly a typical sign of over dosing? I have a problem with disposing of the
 mess I have made if there is a way to salvage it.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
 Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:58 PM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution
 
 Hi Derick
 
 May be there is some help for me out there. I have made lots and lots of
 test batches. Most of them bad not good. One border line. And one 15 gal
 batch with fairly good results. I have used all the options given for
 titration in the J.T. Forever. Test strips work
 
 ... poorly, if at all, and are not recommended by JtF.
 
 but after introducing it to
 the mix I find if I need to add more solution the color will not change so
 I
 need to add strip after strip as I add the solution accuracy is probably
 off
 by the time I get done P.H. meter a good one I found to be about the same
 
 pH meters work well, especially if it's a good one, you shouldn't be
 having problems.
 
 and I have used phenolphthalein and get excellent response but im no
 chemist
 
 Very few of us are.
 
 can anyone tell me how much phenolphthalein to use on the test I have been
 using 2 drops @ 1% phenolphthalein. The instructions from J.T.F say use 1%
 phenolphthalein solution (1.0w/v%). If you can please help. Thanks Derick
 
 You say: The instructions from J.T.F say use 1% phenolphthalein
 solution (1.0w/v%).
 
 The instructions at JtF say: Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution.
 
 Dissolve 1 gm of lye in 1 litre of distilled water (0.1% w/v lye
 solution). In a smaller beaker, dissolve 1 ml of the cooled oil in 10
 ml of pure isopropyl alcohol. Warm the beaker gently by standing it
 in some hot water, stir until all the oil dissolves in the alcohol
 and turns clear. Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution. Using a
 graduated syringe, add 0.1% lye solution drop by drop to the
 oil-alcohol-phenolphthalein solution, stirring all the time, until
 the solution starts to turn pink and stays that way for 10 seconds.
 
 -- From: Biodiesel from waste oil
 http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodwvo
 
 See also:
 
 More about lye
 How much lye to use?
 Basic titration
 Better titration
 Accurate measurements
 pH meters
 Phenolphthalein
 pH meters vs phenolphthalein
 
 http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye
 
 Are your scales, measuring equipment and measuring techniques up to scratch?
 
 Best wishes
 
 Keith
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Probst, Peter
 Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:44 AM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution
 
 Thanks to all who provided sources and altarnatives for the
 phenolphthalein! Now I can start using the 75+ gallons of WVO that's been
 sitting around my garage.
 Pete
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in history

2005-08-08 Thread RobertCVA





RE: post excerpted below.

Some hard questions, and painful for those of us in the US who are 
conflicted about the good and bad our country, or its citizens, have done in and 
to the world, and in this country itself. [As I write this, I have 
in my wallet a $20 bill, with the picture of Andrew Jackson, known for many 
things, but perhaps most ignominiously as a proponent of Indian removal. 
Such a person we honor?] The US population in 2005 is about 4.6% of 
the world total today, yet we lay claim to about 25% of the world's resources 
and impact, for better or probably worse, an even larger 
share.Because "God Shed His Grace on [We]," as one of our anthems 
says? Uh, I have a hard time believing that.With 
greatpower goes great responsibility. Interesting times ahead.

That said, I have a question that perhaps someone out there can address, 
re: "Dysentery, starvation(due to ten years of sanctions) andwar in 
Iraq.", specifically concerning the sanctions.Whatever the US role 
in those sanctions, it has always seemed to me that Saddam Hussein had the 
resources to address the basic health/sanitation needs of his people but instead 
chose to spend it on a lavish lifestyle for himself, his family, and supporters, 
and on other nonessentials compared to basic needs.Yet, almost 
without exception, the US gets blamed for this humanitarian disaster during the 
sanctions.Why?

Bob


In a message dated 8/8/2005 9:30:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  "I grow a little weary of revisionist history."
  
  Yes. Those pesky researchers and their new discoveries. Why can't we just 
  keep history the way "the victors" wrote it.
  
  "Hirohito, Hitler, and even our ally Stalin were noton the 
  humanitarian side of the leger." 
  
  So this is where I (and perhaps some others in this group) struggle to 
  understand. The statement itself, prompts some questions. When one 
  judgesanother's humanity, it helps to have some references.
  
  The Third Reich was not a humanitarian state because,during it's 
  shortreign, it was responsible for the violent deaths of tens of 
  millions ofpeople in the pursuit of empire. So far, so good. Here are 
  some other questions that (IMO) help paint a bigger picture of the "humanity" 
  expressed by a particular government..
  
  Canan empirebe definedas a show of vast political 
  control by military or economic means?
  
  Can the acts that causesuffering among the inhabitants ofan 
  empire bethe result of both what it does and doesn't do?
  
  Can the acts that causesuffering among the inhabitants ofan 
  empire bethe result ofwhat itcanbut, won'tdo 
  because it doesn't contributetoward the building of an empire?
  
  If you answered "yes" toall three questions, you've effectively 
  described the US government. When answering "yes" to the second and third 
  question, you've prompted the next question which tries toevaluate the 
  amount of suffering caused byit'sactions or in-actions:
  
  ** Dysentery, starvation(due to ten years of sanctions) 
  andwar in Iraq
  ** AIDS in Africa (restricting medication and pursuing legal action 
  against patent infringement)
  ** Poverty in Haitiand numerous other countries (keeping the 
  outsourcing of cheap labor alive)
  ** Corporate dictatorshipsthat spread terror in countries like 
  Columbia, etc, etc.
  
  These are only a few examples thatoccuras a result of the 
  actions of our last three or fouradministrations. When one considers the 
  violent acts committed by our government during it's entire history,it 
  gets much more disturbing.
  
  So, is it the brutally violent acts of a particular short lived regime or 
  themore covert acts committed methodically and sometimes less directly 
  (i.e. proxy wars) over a period of many decades which is less humane? More 
  importantly, whoplays the roll of aggressor, reactionaryand victim 
  will change as the propaganda of it's time served it's purpose and the 
  revisionists can go to work.
  
  Mike
  
  Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:


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Re: [Biofuel] Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in history

Bob wrote: "re: 'Dysentery, starvation(due to ten years of sanctions) andwar in Iraq.', specifically concerning the sanctions."

Iraqi Sanctions and American Intentions: Blameless Carnage? by James Bovard
Iraqi Sanctions and American Intentions: Blameless Carnage? by James BovardPresident Bushs advisors assured Americans that U.S. troops would be greeted as liberators with flowers and hugs when the United States invaded Iraq. That promise turned out to be one of the biggest frauds of the Iraqi debacle. One major reason for the animosity to U.S. troops is the lingering impact and bitter memories of the UN sanctions imposed on the Iraqis for 13 years, largely at the behest of the U.S. government. It is impossible to understand the current situation in Iraq without examining the sanctions and their toll. President Bush, in the months before attacking Iraq, portrayed the sufferings and deprivation of the Iraqi people as resulting from the evil of Saddam Hussein. Bushs comments were intended as an antidote to the charge by Osama bin Laden a month after 9/11 that a million innocent children are dying at this
time as we speak, killed in Iraq without any guilt. Bin Laden listed the economic sanctions against Iraq as one of the three main reasons for his holy war against the United States. Most Western experts believe that bin Laden sharply overstated the death toll. A United Nations Childrens Fund (UNICEF) report in 1999 concluded that half a million Iraqi children had died in the previous eight years because of the sanctions. Columbia University professor Richard Garfield, an epidemiologist and an expert on the effects of sanctions, estimated in 2003 that the sanctions had resulted in infant and young-child fatalities numbering between 343,900 and 529,000. Regardless of the precise number of fatalities (which will never be known), the sanctions were a key factor in inflaming Arab anger against the United States. The sanctions were initially imposed to punish Iraq for invading Kuwait and then were kept in place after the Gulf War supposedly in order to pressure Saddam to
disarm. Sanctions wreaked havoc on the Iraqi people, in part because the Pentagon intentionally destroyed Iraqs water-treatment systems during the first U.S.-Iraq war:
[more]

http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?s=threadid=60725
Mike

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

RE: post excerpted below.

Some hard questions, and painful for those of us in the US who are conflicted about the good and bad our country, or its citizens, have done in and to the world, and in this country itself. [As I write this, I have in my wallet a $20 bill, with the picture of Andrew Jackson, known for many things, but perhaps most ignominiously as a proponent of Indian removal. Such a person we honor?] The US population in 2005 is about 4.6% of the world total today, yet we lay claim to about 25% of the world's resources and impact, for better or probably worse, an even larger share.Because "God Shed His Grace on [We]," as one of our anthems says? Uh, I have a hard time believing that.With greatpower goes great responsibility. Interesting times ahead.

That said, I have a question that perhaps someone out there can address, re: "Dysentery, starvation(due to ten years of sanctions) andwar in Iraq.", specifically concerning the sanctions.Whatever the US role in those sanctions, it has always seemed to me that Saddam Hussein had the resources to address the basic health/sanitation needs of his people but instead chose to spend it on a lavish lifestyle for himself, his family, and supporters, and on other nonessentials compared to basic needs.Yet, almost without exception, the US gets blamed for this humanitarian disaster during the sanctions.Why?

Bob

In a message dated 8/8/2005 9:30:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

"I grow a little weary of revisionist history."

Yes. Those pesky researchers and their new discoveries. Why can't we just keep history the way "the victors" wrote it.

"Hirohito, Hitler, and even our ally Stalin were noton the humanitarian side of the leger."

So this is where I (and perhaps some others in this group) struggle to understand. The statement itself, prompts some questions. When one judgesanother's humanity, it helps to have some references.

Canan empirebe definedas a show of vast political control by military or economic means?

Can the acts that causesuffering among the inhabitants ofan empire bethe result of both what it does and doesn't do?

Can the acts that causesuffering among the inhabitants ofan empire bethe result ofwhat itcanbut, won'tdo because it doesn't contributetoward the building

Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood using mushrooms





Greetings Ken,

I'm certainly interested in seeing that thesis. It would be unusual for a fungus to get its only form of energy from lignin. It would be especially unusual for a fungus not to consume cellulose and hemicelluose. Hot stuff for those poor souls like myself, interested in mycology.

Tom Irwin



From: Ken Gotberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:07:20 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood using mushrooms

I was reading just yesterday about using white rot fungus in the form of mushrooms of the common button type as selective for lignin and leaving the cellulose and hemicellulose alone as part of a pulping scheme. The cellulose and maybe the hemicellulose can then be fermented to ethanol. (Another approach is using a MoS2 catalyst.) It was a PhD thesis, but I don’t have it with me. I can look it up if interested.

Ken

Brian Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Fredthanks for the input, even if it does pop another bubble, dammit.
Mushrooms like the same sugars that yeasts like.  So a lot of what you are trying to get from the wood is what the fungi consumes.  I have cultured both yeasts and fungi and had to have completely seperate laminar stations because there was cross contamination going out of control.
From what I have heard about most brewing systems it seems like I better build a super clean laboratory to do my experiments in. I have an insulated semi-trailer that my buddy was using to grow edible mushrooms in. I was thinking I might strip it back to the cleanable fiberglass walls and washable steel floor and try my hand at brewing something easier like corn or fruit just to get some experience with all this scientific stuff. Right now the trailer houses my electronic workshop and a small jewelry workbench. Whatever I do, it seems plain to me that change is in the air. 
If you can find the fungi and make it work, I would be happy to see the results.  fredNow that you bring up this point about yeasts and fungi eating sugar the same stuff needed to ferment, it occurs to me that these fungi folks were unaware that I was trying to ferment the sawdust. Their original plan as I recall was to help my friend who owns a small sawmill to dispose of sawdust. Oh well at this point it is still in the thinking about it stage. I will gladly leave some of this learning the hard way stuff for next season, or as they say around here “Mañana” I will apprise you all of the mushroom experiment as it develops.Brian Rodgers ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


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[Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

2005-08-08 Thread RobertCVA




Click 
here: Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes 

FYI. No mention of biodiesel to augment supplies. 

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Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup

More on Roundup and Monsanto:

Drugs war in Columbia - the true costThe true cost of the USs so-called drugs war in Columbia (see Environment Health News 16 p13) is mounting. There have now been 4,000 human and 178,000 animal reported cases of serious skin, eye, respiratory and digestive problems due to the mass spraying of Monsantos Roundup and Roundup Ultra herbicides. 
[more]

http://www.ehn.clara.net/pesticides.html

MonsantoA brief introduction to the Monsanto CorporationMonsanto is a humanitarian's worst nightmare. A company who playsthe PR game so well that many of the people who consume their products have never even heard of them, they were responsible for manufacturing Agent Orange, the extremely toxic defoliant which the U.S. military sprayed all over Vietnam (and consequently, also American GI's) in the 60s and 70's. Agent Orange, which contained large amounts of the deadly chemical Dioxin, has now been banned worldwide and is still affecting the Vietnamese people two generations later. It is also largely believed to be the main cause for many of the illnesses associated with soldiers returning home from Vietnam. From 1962 to 1970, the US military sprayed 72 million liters of herbicides, mostly Agent Orange, on over one million Vietnamese civilians and over 100,000 U.S. troops. As a result, within ten years of
 the close of the war, 9,170 veterans had filed claims for disabilities caused by Agent Orange. The VA denied compensation to 7,709, saying that a facial rash was the only disease associated with exposure. In 2002, Vietnam requested assistance in dealing with the tens of thousands of birth defects due to Agent Orange. In order to avoid medical compensation expenses, Monsanto continues to claim this now banned chemical is not toxic.Monsanto's most commonly used product on the market today is glyphosate, or "Roundup." It is a similarly deadly defoliant that is used to eradicate "invasive" plants around telephone poles, on sidewalks and farms all over the world and most commonly within the US. One of the major consumers of Roundup is the United States military, who under the guise of the "War on Drugs," sprays the defoliant from helicopters in and around small villages in the sovereign country of Columbia in South America, claiming to be targeting coca
 plantation. Coca is the mildly stimulating plant which is the main ingredient in the production of Cocaine Hydrochloride, commonly known by Americans as "Coke" or "Cocaine." 
[more]

http://www.thehumanrevolution.org/monsanto.html
Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:23:57 GMTFrom: "Pesticide Action Network North America" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: PANUPS: Rethinking RoundupRethinking RoundupAugust 5, 2005A recent study of Roundup presents new evidence that the glyphosate-based herbicide is far more toxic than the active ingredient alone. The study, published in the June 2005 issue of Environmental Health Perspectives, reports glyphosate toxicity to human placental cells within hours of exposure, at levels ten times lower than those found in agricultural use. The researchers also tested glyphosate and Roundup at lower concentrations for effects on sexual hormones, reporting effects at very low levels. This suggests that dilution with other ingredients in Roundup may, in fact, facilitate
 glyphosate's hormonal impacts.Roundup, produced by Monsanto, is a mixture of glyphosate and other chemicals (commonly referred to as "inerts") designed to increase the herbicide's penetration into the target and its toxic effect. Since inerts are not listed as "active ingredients" the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)does not assess their health or environmental impacts, despite the fact that more than 300 chemicals on EPA's list of pesticide inert ingredients are or were once registered as pesticide active ingredients, and that inert ingredients often account for more than 50% of the pesticide product by volume.The evidence presented in the recent study is supported by earlier laboratory studies connecting glyphosate with reproductive harm, including damaged DNA in mice and abnormal chromosomes in human blood. Evidence from epidemiological studies
 has also linked exposure to the herbicide with increased risk of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, and laboratory studies have now begun to hone in on the mechanism by which the chemical acts on cell division to cause cancer. A Canadian study has linked glyphosate exposure in the three months before conception with increased risk for miscarriage and a 2002 study in Minnesota connected glyphosate exposure in farm families with increased incidence of attention deficit disorder.Studies have also documented glyphosate's toxicity to wildlife and especially to amphibians. Recently, studies conducted in small ponds with a variety of aquatic populations have presented evidence that levels of glyphosate currently applied can be highly lethal to many species of amphibians.Glyphosate is the

Re: [Biofuel] Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in history

2005-08-08 Thread robert luis rabello


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Because God Shed His Grace on 
[We], as one of our anthems says?  Uh, I have a hard time believing 
that.  With great power goes great responsibility.  Interesting times ahead.


	As far as God shed his grace, I've often wondered if those words 
represent an invocation, an iteration of fact, or simply an excuse. 
(After all, who are WE to tell God to do anything?)  But the claim 
rings false, as is evidenced by our collective behavior.  We are no 
better than the great nations that preceded us, though we often like 
to think ourselves as qualitatively superior.  (So did the Brits, so 
did the Romans, so did the Helenes, and so forth . . . )


 Whatever the US role in 
those sanctions, it has always seemed to me that Saddam Hussein had the 
resources to address the basic health/sanitation needs of his people but 
instead chose to spend it on a lavish lifestyle for himself, his family, 
and supporters, and on other nonessentials compared to basic 
needs.  Yet, almost without exception, the US gets blamed for this 
humanitarian disaster during the sanctions.  Why?


	The U.S. gets blamed for a LOT of the world's woes.  Some of this is 
well deserved, some represents an oversimplification of complex issues 
for which the most obvious target of rage happens to be the biggest, 
easiest target.  Saddam Hussein behaved in a deplorable manner during 
the conflict he had with the United States, but I wonder sometimes 
whether we are capable of fully understanding the cultural context in 
which men like him arise to power.  Could we have done something 
different that would have attained our objective of getting his troops 
out of Kuwait (though it's been argued here that the Ambassador 
Gilaspie debacle sent Saddam the wrong signal about our intentions), 
while allowing Saddam to save face?


	It's hard to keep track of what is relevant when all of the factors 
come up for discussion.  We don't like to admit that our duplicitous 
policy toward Israel enters into the mix.  Energy use and economic 
expansion rank among the most significant influences in our foreign 
policy.  We're driven by fear, whether of foreign influence, 
communism, racism or Islam.  We don't like to examine many years of 
political blundering, but also, many people outside our country don't 
really understand the complex religio-political milieu in the United 
States, (which we have discussed many times) and how the apparent 
impotence of our military after the Korean conflict plays into the 
perceived need for effective projection of power.


	We end up, then, at an impasse with many people in the world who 
simply don't understand us, and for whom we have little sympathy.  We 
become defensive when exposed to criticism, deserved or otherwise, and 
tend to attribute any disagreement with our foreign policy as 
anti-Americanism.  Even when overseas friends warn us that our ways 
expose the cause of liberty and economic development to danger, we 
choose to lumber onward, ignoring the torpedoes, sowing dragon's 
teeth as Keith often writes.


	Were the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki terrorist attacks?  Was 
the allied bombing of Dresden?  What about Tokyo?  What other targets 
remained in Japan that HADN'T been heavily bombed prior to the use of 
atomic weapons?  Until very recently, bombing has not been a terribly 
effective technique when it comes to destroying an enemy's command / 
control infrastructure or his ability to support ongoing warfare.  But 
this issue has its root in earlier conflicts where the concept of 
total war began.  How do we define terrorism in the context of 
warfare?  When Grant invaded the southern states during the Civil War, 
was his conduct terroristic?  Some people think so, yet he only had 
conventional artillery, willing troops and fire at his disposal.


	Perhaps the best answer lies in addressing the root causes of 
conflict.  We need to limit our own desires and work cooperatively for 
the benefit of everyone who lives in our world.  Yet I see the seminal 
cause of human conflict every time I look in the mirror.  Until I can 
deal with my own attitude, prejudices, rage and greed, I see little 
hope in avoiding terror in the future.


robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Improving Ethanol Distilation Efficiency


Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


08-08-05 on Ethanol

It takes approximately the same energy to produce ethanol, as you 
get out of using ethanol.  There are quibbles about how much gain or 
loss, but the major use of energy, is from the distillation process 
to make ethanol usable.  The distillation process is the major loss 
of energy.


See:  http://www.journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html on current 
ethanol energy efficiency.


So, what kind of engineering would solve this challenge?  One way is 
to use the sugar cane residue, like in Brasil, for the energy to 
distill the ethanol.  Another is to use the residue to make even 
more ethanol to distill.  Neither of these makes enough of an order 
of magnitude increase in energy, but they help.  The largest gain I 
can see now is to engineer the use of solar energy to evaporate the 
ethanol so that the ethanol can be condensed by the cooling 
available in the ground.


There is such a design in the Biofuels online library at Journey to 
Forever. it's been there for five years.


Using the ground to cool and or derive the cooling to condense is a 
low tech and low cost way that over time can become higher tech.


The spray tower cooler for the condenser water coolant is made of 
three cake tins which have been perforated so they cascade water into 
the drum. The drum is connected to another by a 50 mm diameter pipe 
and the whole thing is driven by a centrifugal pump with a by-pass 
valve to adjust flow through the condenser.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor8.html
Biodiesel processors: The Deepthort 100B - Journey to Forever
(With photograph.)

The same is true of solar designs.  Cost effectivity is our driver 
for our designs.


My vision is for a World Wide Web Online Project, to design several 
alternative solar/ground ethanol distillation designs, through an 
open source process.


That's what this list is, Michael, and very successful it's been, 
especially in conjuction with the Journey to Forever website biofuels 
section.


I'm not sure I agree with you as far as ethanol and energy-in 
energy-out is concerned. The stuff about Pimentel etc, whether pro or 
con, deals primarily with corn (maize), not the crop of choice, and 
with a conceptualised standard farm, which is discussed on the page 
you reffed above. Even if there is actually such a thing it may not 
have much to do with what an integrated appropriate technology 
approach can achieve for small-scale localised projects. Pannir has 
discussed this quite a lot. If you integrate it the energy-in for 
distillation can be free or virtually free. For instance, 
heat-exchangers from a thermophilic compost pile will almost get you 
there and biogas could do the rest. You need thermophilic composting 
with biogas anyway, and both of them use the manure from the 
livestock you should be maintaining with seedcake and mash or 
whatever. There are many other options.


This is a way for farms to become self sufficient all our our world 
and to sell us the excess ethanol for fuel, just like with food.


You mean the US? Why should they sell it to the US?

E-Mail me at address on my card when you are interested in 
contributing your design and other talents.


See http://RecoveryByDiscovery.com/Ethanol.htm


Please do NOT do that. This is the place for such discussions, there 
is no need to take it offlist. It says this in the List rules, which 
you've been referred to and are obliged to read: Don't call for an 
offlist response unless you have a special reason. If it's discussed 
on-list, everybody can share in the discussion, more people will 
contribute, you'll end up with much better answers, and it will all 
be in the archives for future seekers to find there.

The List rules are here:
http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-May/07.html


Keep it onlist please.

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner




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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood using mushrooms




Please, I have not heard of thisuse 
of MoS2before.

Greg H.


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Ken Gotberg 

  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 7:07
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood 
  using mushrooms
  
  
  I 
  was reading just yesterday about using white rot fungus in the form of 
  mushrooms of the common button type as selective for lignin and leaving the 
  cellulose and hemicellulose alone as part of a pulping scheme. The cellulose and maybe the 
  hemicellulose can then be fermented to ethanol. (Another approach is using a 
  MoS2 catalyst.) It was 
  a PhD thesis, but I dont have it with me. I can look it up if 
  interested.
  
  Ken
  
  
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[Biofuel] EU clears Monsanto biotech corn for animal feed




The European Union head office 
on Monday cleared a form of genetically modified corn made by American 
biotechnology company Monsanto Co. for use in animal 
feed.

http://www.kticam.com/news/agricultural/index.cfm?id=11698

Greg H.
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Re: [Biofuel] Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in history

I perceive it as a simple request.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:00
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in
history

 As far as God shed his grace, I've often wondered if those words
 represent an invocation, an iteration of fact, or simply an excuse.
 (After all, who are WE to tell God to do anything?)  But the claim
 rings false, as is evidenced by our collective behavior.  We are no
 better than the great nations that preceded us, though we often like
 to think ourselves as qualitatively superior.  (So did the Brits, so
 did the Romans, so did the Helenes, and so forth . . . )

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[Biofuel] Solar power is latest innovation at N.J. farms




Move over, Jersey tomatoes. 
Some farmers are producing a new crop: energy.

http://www.kticam.com/news/agricultural/index.cfm?id=11695

Greg H.

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Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima


In a message dated 8/6/05 10:31:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I don't think that you are looking at the picture in the same light as the

planners were.

Actually greg, we haven't been talking about what was in the minds of the 
planners.  The subject has been the wholly abitrary statements which were made, 
post-war, to justify the bombs.

(snip)

Yes, Omaha beach was bad.But lets look at more realistic numbers that

planners from the invasion were looking at:

(snip)

(snip)

Over 26,000 Allied causalities and over 21,800 Japanese causalities for an

island less than 8 sq miles in size, in little over 1 month.The name of

that island - Iwo Jima.
(snip)

No, not more realistic.  Iwo Jima saw a very high fatality rate for american 
forces of 10%.  However, in reality, this battle was highly anomalous for a 
whole number of reasons.  No reasonalbe strategist would factor this event into 
his/her force requirement or casualty estimates in planning for another 
campaign.


In 2 months 38,000 Americans wounded, 12,000 killed or missing,  more than

107,000 enemy killed, and perhaps 100,000 civilians perished, in the

invasion of a tiny little island called Okinawa.( That is more

causalities than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined - an estimated 103,000 )

You forgot to mention that some 30+ american fighting forces were 
involved.  In other words, the rate of fatalities was some 4%.  In absolute 
terms, 
only slightly higher than omaha beach, despite the kamakazi tactics employed by 
the japanese.

It should be noted that Okinawa had very important elements in common with 
Iwo Jima.  Yet, the fatality rate was significantly lower.  A clear indicator 
both of the exceptional nature of the battle at Iwo Jima, and of the fact that 
the american forces had adapted well to the new tactical situation.

So, basically, there is nothing 'more realistic' about these numbers.  And 
even if you were to assume that there were, you'd still be talking about a 
combat force of some 2500 personnel.

It was with these casualty numbers, that the planners were figuring

1,000,000 from the off shore bombardment to the final surrender.

Again, NOT!  We've been talking about post-war assertions made to justify the 
bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  One of the earliest and most famous of 
which is now known to have been an entirely arbitrary figure.  I also must 
stress, that these 'sound bite' type of comments are heavily loaded.  The 
public 
does not tend to think of military actions in terms of wounded or missing 
(wounded normally account for around 80%  or more of casualties).  Casualty 
figures 
morph into body counts, so that the common perception is that a million 
american lives were at stake.

As far as what was actually anticipated, the top planners' casualty estimates 
(i.e. total wounded, dead and missing) varied widely, ranging anywhere from 
around 100,000 on the low end to a million on the high end (this was the single 
highest estimate, almost twice as high as all others).



-chris b.


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[Biofuel] Seed terrorism

2005-08-08 Thread Richard B

Monsanto is a prime player in predatory, monopolistic practices, trying 
to pass laws to lock the little guy out. Check out 
http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=343.  If Monsanto has its way, we will 
have to pay royalties to do anything with seeds, including growing 
plants to produce biofuels.


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[Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

2005-08-08 Thread Garth Kim Travis


Greetings,

I will agree that there are many factors that were not made public at the 
time of the bombing that did allow the myths to grow.  I wonder though, how 
can any nation call themselves moral and strong when they do not want their 
people to know what has been done in their name?  If the US had really 
believed they were justified in dropping the bombs, then why censor the 
pictures of what they have done?  I have always heard the bombs referred to 
as 'necessary evil' and if this was the case, why would they feel the need 
to hide what they did?  To me, the fact that the US censored the pictures 
tells me that it was not necessary.  Honest actions do not need to 
hide.  Why did the rest of the world allow this censorship?  Surely Canada 
and Britain had pictures, since we were all allies.  Why were these 
pictures never shown?


No wonder most so-called adults in North America and elsewhere are spoilt 
children, they have been treated as children for too many years.  Adults 
face up to what they have done, the good, the bad and the ugly.


Bright Blessings,
Kim



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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

2005-08-08 Thread Alt.EnergyNetwork

Yes Monsanto and others have used absolutely dispicable tactics against some 
U.S. and Canadian farmers
who found some of their gm plants on their land. I also understand that they 
just purchased the largest seed coumpany in the world. Name escapes me right 
now but that particular seed co. supplies most of the worlds
vegetable and fruit seeds. I fear what these megacorps have planned with 
teminator seeds for tomatoes, lettuce and virtually all our fruits and 
vegtables once manipulated to not produce viable seeds or germinate the next 
year. They are programmed to die after one season so farmers have to buy a new 
batch of seeds each year from ...guess who?


regards
tallex





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---Original Message---
 From: Richard B [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism
 Sent: 08 Aug '05 18:34
 
  Monsanto is a prime player in predatory, monopolistic practices, trying
  to pass laws to lock the little guy out. Check out
  http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=343.  If Monsanto has its way, we will
  have to pay royalties to do anything with seeds, including growing
  plants to produce biofuels.
  
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  http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
  
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  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  
  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
  http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
  
  
---Original Message---

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Re: [Biofuel] Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in history

tom,

I grow a little weary of revisionist history.

this is precisely why this thread started in the first place.  there are 
those of us who are weary of the revisionist official history woven almost 
entrely 
of whole cloth to justify the first use (and, incidentally, first use) of the 
atomic bomb.

Yes, there was a political side to the war.
When hasn´t there been. Yes, it was brutal and callous. Again, when hasn´t 
it been. Yes, the history is written by the victors. But let´s not forget that 
we´re not talking about the best humans ever created on the other side.

this is the typical justification resorted to when the revisionist has been 
outed.  'well, sure, it's all a big lie, but we get to tell those lies and 
commit such brutalities because we're the good guys'.

how does the fact that the nazis or japanese or soviets committed attrocities 
matter?  does it change the fact that we chalked up two big whoppers of our 
own those two days in august (not to mention hundreds more in our fire-bombing 
campaign, which had been going on for months prior)?  does it or doesn't it 
justify annihilating some 15 civilians, and condemning untold thousands 
more 
to a lifetime of afflictions?

If the bombs limited that and ended the war without invasion I still feel 
they fall into the catagory of necessary evil.

but, again, this is precisely the point.  it's pure syllogism as doctrine.  
no different, really, than that bogus email of the other day about crime in 
australia.

(it should trouble you profoundly, btw, to have to put 'if' at the front of 
that statement.)

-chris b.

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[Biofuel] Experience with DSE/dieselsecret.com

2005-08-08 Thread Paul S Cantrell

Hello,
I found this site today while researching SVO/WVO:

Diesel Secret Energy or DSE
http://www.dieselsecret.com/
They want US$40 for their 'kit' or US$8 for a 22 floz bottle (to treat 88 gallons)

They claim to be able to run SVO/WVO without car mods, by filtering and using their proprietary additive. 
I'm figuring it is just viscosity additives, eh?

Anybody have any reference/experience with these guys?

A Whois search gave the following:
DSE LLC
268 Boudreaux St
Sunset, LA 70584

-- Regards,Paul
South Carolina, USAHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch
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RE: [Biofuel] washing?

2005-08-08 Thread Rademan, Jacobus

Hi all im a newcomber to making biodiesel and will be making my first batch 
soon but need some help in washing the diesel 
the rest i got from a friend 
thanx 
Kobus S.A.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mike Weaver
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 3:03 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing?


I always wash *and* neutralize the leftover lye - but then I'm pretty 
paranoid.  Some of the gurus I met at Piedmont don't, others swear you 
have to.

the skapegoat wrote:

 The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell book 
 seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even detrimental.  
 I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion.  I'm 
 sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel. 
  
 Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel 
 instead of just washing it away?  I know this still leaves excess 
 hydroxides that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the 
 number of washes necessary and you might be able to save some of your 
 methanol.

 Send instant messages to your online friends 
 http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com



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Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

I read that.  Diesel will only help if combined w/ high mileage cars, 
hybrid and bio.  To go to diesel so Americans can get 22 mpg in their 
SUVs is pretty silly.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Click here: Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/07/AR2005080700888.html 

 
FYI.  No mention of biodiesel to augment supplies.  




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Re: [Biofuel] Democratizing the Global Economy

2005-08-08 Thread Joe Street

I just watched a movie called The Yes Men and was shocked at how much 
they were able to infiltrate the WTO and even more shocked to see the 
scene at the end of the film of a member of my own country's parliament 
quoting some of thier disinformation which is designed to combat the 
unhealthy direction that globalisation is taking us in.  They have a 
websitehttp://www.theyesmen.org/ you can check it out.  They 
encourage others to join thier ranks.  Or should I say pranks.


Joe


Democratizing the Global Economy, website* 
http://ga4.org/ct/Xp1KITK1bXfX/http://www.globalexchange.org/campaig 
ns/. Offers an Easy Introduction to the Global Economy that explores 
the role of economics, corporate globalization, labor and corporate 
accountability. Presents targeted campaigns to reform global trade 
rules, hold corporations accountable for environmental damages, build 
strong and free labor, and promote fair and environmentally 
sustainable alternatives. Contact Global Exchange, 2017 Mission 
Street, #303, San Francisco, CA 94110; phone (415) 255-7296; fax (415) 
255-7498; website 
http://ga4.org/ct/X71KITK1bXfB/http://www.globalexchange.org/.


Democratizing the Global Economy

Citizens can and should play an active role in shaping the future of 
our global economy. Currently, the rules of the global economy are 
written by institutions such as the World Trade Organization, the 
World Bank, and the International Monetary Fund. These institutions 
have written global policy with input mainly from multinational 
corporations and very little input from citizens.


Here are some of the ways in which we can work together to reform 
global trade rules, demand that corporations are accountable to 
people's needs, build strong and free labor and promote fair and 
environmentally sustainable alternatives. Our various campaigns seek 
to build alternatives to the economic status quo by linking global 
analysis with local action. Please help us spread the message that the 
current system does not have to be tolerated--we can and must change it!


An Easy Introduction to the Global Economy
The first step in becoming active on global economic issues is 
understanding how the global economy works. Who are the players, how 
do they make decisions, who benefits, and who suffers. Here's your 
basic guide!


The Undemocratic Institutions that Run the Global Economy
The WTO
The World Trade Organization is the most powerful governing body on 
the planet-yet it is designed to benefit corporations while ignoring 
the needs of communities and the environment.

NAFTA
The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) between Canada, 
Mexico, and the U.S. gives corporations rights at the expense of 
democracy in all three countries - and has caused job loss and 
environmental destruction in all three countries.

The FTAA
The Free Trade Area of the Americas. Negotiations are underway to 
expand the disastrous NAFTA model by creating a free trade zone from 
Argentina to Alaska. But citizens across the hemisphere are uniting to 
stop this corporate juggernaut.

CAFTA
The Central American Free Trade Agreement would expand the failed 
NAFTA model to Central America. Find out how you can stop CAFTA from 
becoming a stepping stone to the FTAA.

World Bank and the IMF
The World Bank and International Monetary Fund are the world's biggest 
financial lenders, masked as development organizations. Problem is, 
they are also the world's biggest loan sharks, keeping poor countries 
impoverished while helping multinational corporations exploit nations' 
natural resources.


Why is Corporate Globalization Bad? Ask a Sweatshop Worker.
Anti-Sweatshop Campaign
One of the worst effects of corporate globalization is that it causes 
a race-to-the-bottom on wages and working conditions around the world. 
Find out more about the national effort to ensure that the clothes, 
uniforms, and other garments are not made in sweatshops.

International Right to Know
When corporations operate in the US, they have to disclose basic 
information about their operations, including labor and environmental 
issues. But when they locate overseas, a veil of secrecy surrounds 
their actions.


Working Together, We Can Build an Alternative Global Economy
Fair Trade
If you don't buy Nike and Gap, what should you buy? Fair Trade offers 
a workable solution to the sweatshop crisis, giving consumers a 
guarantee that the products they enjoy were not made in abusive 
conditions.

Green Festivals
Green Festivals bring together the many pieces of growing green and 
fair economy. This year's events are in Austin Oct. 11-12 and San 
Francisco Nov. 8-9, 2005.


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RE: [Biofuel] washing?


Welcome Kobus

Hi all im a newcomber to making biodiesel and will be making my 
first batch soon but need some help in washing the diesel


See:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html
Washing:
Why bother?
Which way is best?
Mist-washing
Bubble washing
Stir washing
Settling
Recycling the wash-water
Washing temperature
Emulsions
Using acid
Wash-water disposal
Drying the fuel


the rest i got from a friend


And everything else you need to know is here:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
Make your own biodiesel

Best wishes

Keith


thanx
Kobus S.A.



snip




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Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

doug,

*Part* of the Japanese government was trying to find a way to surrender,
before the atom bombs.

you've been misinformed.  this is a misrepresentation of the facts.  it was 
hirohito himself, quite on his own, that asked the soviets to mediate a peace.  
later, the government junta voted unanimously in favor of sending an envoy to 
moscow.  the peace faction and the hardliners had their own reasons for 
supporting the idea, but the point is that they took that action in the first 
place 
because hirohito wanted them to.

these events transpired because the situation in japan was progressively 
deteriorating.  there were growing fears that total social and economic 
collapse, 
and, therefore, most likely political collapse as well, were imminent.

furthermore, it was not the united states' intent to force a quick surrender 
by using the bombs.  that simply did not enter into the calculus i.e. saving 
so many american or japanese lives was not the motivation for nuking japan.

It's not clear that the U.S. population would
have accepted just hanging around fully mobilized at war waiting for
six months or a year until the Japanese

you're presenting kind of a worst case scenario of how a blockade strategy, 
as opposed to invading, might have unfolded.besides, the disposition of the 
american people is a red herring and highly speculative (another echo of the 
'aussie gun control' argument).  nor does it have any bearing on whether or 
not bombing hiroshima and nagasaki were inhumane.

-chris b.

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[Biofuel] Hiroshima survivor speaks out

2005-08-08 Thread Alt.EnergyNetwork


Hiroshima Survivor Recalls the Day the Atomic Bomb Was Dropped

http://www.alternate-energy.net/hiroshima05.html










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Re: [Biofuel] Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in history

Favorite Bush quote:  The American way of life is not negotiable.  The 
rest of the world may prove him wrong on that one...


robert luis rabello wrote:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Because God Shed His Grace on [We], as one of our anthems says?  
Uh, I have a hard time believing that.  With great power goes great 
responsibility.  Interesting times ahead.



As far as God shed his grace, I've often wondered if those words 
represent an invocation, an iteration of fact, or simply an excuse. 
(After all, who are WE to tell God to do anything?)  But the claim 
rings false, as is evidenced by our collective behavior.  We are no 
better than the great nations that preceded us, though we often like 
to think ourselves as qualitatively superior.  (So did the Brits, so 
did the Romans, so did the Helenes, and so forth . . . )


 Whatever the US role in those sanctions, it has always seemed to me 
that Saddam Hussein had the resources to address the basic 
health/sanitation needs of his people but instead chose to spend it 
on a lavish lifestyle for himself, his family, and supporters, and on 
other nonessentials compared to basic needs.  Yet, almost without 
exception, the US gets blamed for this humanitarian disaster during 
the sanctions.  Why?



The U.S. gets blamed for a LOT of the world's woes.  Some of this 
is well deserved, some represents an oversimplification of complex 
issues for which the most obvious target of rage happens to be the 
biggest, easiest target.  Saddam Hussein behaved in a deplorable 
manner during the conflict he had with the United States, but I wonder 
sometimes whether we are capable of fully understanding the cultural 
context in which men like him arise to power.  Could we have done 
something different that would have attained our objective of getting 
his troops out of Kuwait (though it's been argued here that the 
Ambassador Gilaspie debacle sent Saddam the wrong signal about our 
intentions), while allowing Saddam to save face?


It's hard to keep track of what is relevant when all of the 
factors come up for discussion.  We don't like to admit that our 
duplicitous policy toward Israel enters into the mix.  Energy use and 
economic expansion rank among the most significant influences in our 
foreign policy.  We're driven by fear, whether of foreign influence, 
communism, racism or Islam.  We don't like to examine many years of 
political blundering, but also, many people outside our country don't 
really understand the complex religio-political milieu in the United 
States, (which we have discussed many times) and how the apparent 
impotence of our military after the Korean conflict plays into the 
perceived need for effective projection of power.


We end up, then, at an impasse with many people in the world who 
simply don't understand us, and for whom we have little sympathy.  We 
become defensive when exposed to criticism, deserved or otherwise, and 
tend to attribute any disagreement with our foreign policy as 
anti-Americanism.  Even when overseas friends warn us that our ways 
expose the cause of liberty and economic development to danger, we 
choose to lumber onward, ignoring the torpedoes, sowing dragon's 
teeth as Keith often writes.


Were the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki terrorist attacks?  
Was the allied bombing of Dresden?  What about Tokyo?  What other 
targets remained in Japan that HADN'T been heavily bombed prior to the 
use of atomic weapons?  Until very recently, bombing has not been a 
terribly effective technique when it comes to destroying an enemy's 
command / control infrastructure or his ability to support ongoing 
warfare.  But this issue has its root in earlier conflicts where the 
concept of total war began.  How do we define terrorism in the 
context of warfare?  When Grant invaded the southern states during the 
Civil War, was his conduct terroristic?  Some people think so, yet he 
only had conventional artillery, willing troops and fire at his disposal.


Perhaps the best answer lies in addressing the root causes of 
conflict.  We need to limit our own desires and work cooperatively for 
the benefit of everyone who lives in our world.  Yet I see the seminal 
cause of human conflict every time I look in the mirror.  Until I can 
deal with my own attitude, prejudices, rage and greed, I see little 
hope in avoiding terror in the future.


robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup

Arrgg. Why did you have send that? Now I have get rid of a gallon of 
that crap. Anyone know how to render it safe before disposal?
Also, does anyone have any ideas on using concentrated vinegar to 
control weeds?


I had no idea it was so deadly.

-Mike


Michael Redler wrote:


More on Roundup and Monsanto:
*Drugs war in Columbia - the true cost
*The true cost of the US’s so-called “drugs war” in Columbia (see 
Environment Health News 16 p13) is mounting. There have now been 4,000 
human and 178,000 animal reported cases of serious skin, eye, 
respiratory and digestive problems due to the mass spraying of 
Monsanto’s Roundup and Roundup Ultra herbicides.

[more]
http://www.ehn.clara.net/pesticides.html
*Monsanto
A brief introduction to the Monsanto Corporation*
Monsanto is a humanitarian's worst nightmare. A company who plays
the PR game so well that many of the people who consume their products 
have never even heard of them, they were responsible for manufacturing 
Agent Orange, the extremely toxic defoliant which the U.S. military 
sprayed all over Vietnam (and consequently, also American GI's) in the 
60s and 70's. Agent Orange, which contained large amounts of the 
deadly chemical Dioxin, has now been banned worldwide and is still 
affecting the Vietnamese people two generations later. It is also 
largely believed to be the main cause for many of the illnesses 
associated with soldiers returning home from Vietnam. From 1962 to 
1970, the US military sprayed 72 million liters of herbicides, mostly 
Agent Orange, on over one million Vietnamese civilians and over 
100,000 U.S. troops. As a result, within ten years of the close of the 
war, 9,170 veterans had filed claims for disabilities caused by Agent 
Orange. The VA denied compensation to 7,709, saying that a facial rash 
was the only disease associated with exposure. In 2002, Vietnam 
requested assistance in dealing with the tens of thousands of birth 
defects due to Agent Orange. In order to avoid medical compensation 
expenses, Monsanto continues to claim this now banned chemical is not 
toxic.
Monsanto's most commonly used product on the market today is 
glyphosate, or Roundup. It is a similarly deadly defoliant that is 
used to eradicate invasive plants around telephone poles, on 
sidewalks and farms all over the world and most commonly within the 
US. One of the major consumers of Roundup is the United States 
military, who under the guise of the War on Drugs, sprays the 
defoliant from helicopters in and around small villages in the 
sovereign country of Columbia in South America, claiming to be 
targeting coca plantation. Coca is the mildly stimulating plant which 
is the main ingredient in the production of Cocaine Hydrochloride, 
commonly known by Americans as Coke or Cocaine.

[more]
http://www.thehumanrevolution.org/monsanto.html

*/Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:23:57 GMT
From: Pesticide Action Network North America
Subject: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup

Rethinking Roundup
August 5, 2005

A recent study of Roundup presents new evidence that the
glyphosate-based herbicide is far more toxic than the active
ingredient alone. The study, published in the June 2005 issue of
Environmental Health Perspectives, reports glyphosate toxicity to
human placental cells within hours of exposure, at levels ten times
lower than those found in agricultural use. The researchers also
tested glyphosate and Roundup at lower concentrations for effects on
sexual hormones, reporting effects at very low levels. This suggests
that dilution with other ingredients in Roundup may, in fact,
facilitate glyphosate's hormonal impacts.

Roundup, produced by Monsanto, is a mixture of glyphosate and other
chemicals (commonly referred to as inerts) designed to increase
the herbicide's penetration into the target and its toxic effect.
Since inerts are not listed as active ingredients the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)does not assess their health or
environmental impacts, despite the fact that more than 300 chemicals
on EPA's list of pesticide inert ingredients are or were once
registered as pesticide active ingredients, and that inert
ingredients often account for more than 50% of the pesticide product
by volume.

The evidence presented in the recent study is supported by earlier
laboratory studies connecting glyphosate with reproductive harm,
including damaged DNA in mice and abnormal chromosomes in human
blood. Evidence from epidemiological studies has also linked
exposure to the herbicide with increased risk of non-Hodgkin's
lymphoma, and laboratory studies have now begun to hone in on the
mechanism by which the chemical acts on cell division to cause
cancer. A Canadian study has linked glyphosate exposure in the three
months before conception with increased risk for

Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism


Burpee?



Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote:


Yes Monsanto and others have used absolutely dispicable tactics against some 
U.S. and Canadian farmers
who found some of their gm plants on their land. I also understand that they 
just purchased the largest seed coumpany in the world. Name escapes me right 
now but that particular seed co. supplies most of the worlds
vegetable and fruit seeds. I fear what these megacorps have planned with 
teminator seeds for tomatoes, lettuce and virtually all our fruits and 
vegtables once manipulated to not produce viable seeds or germinate the next 
year. They are programmed to die after one season so farmers have to buy a new 
batch of seeds each year from ...guess who?


regards
tallex





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---Original Message---
 


From: Richard B [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism
Sent: 08 Aug '05 18:34

Monsanto is a prime player in predatory, monopolistic practices, trying
to pass laws to lock the little guy out. Check out
http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=343.  If Monsanto has its way, we will
have to pay royalties to do anything with seeds, including growing
plants to produce biofuels.

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---Original Message---

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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism


Burpee?


Seminis.

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg44318.html
[Biofuel] Monsanto buys Seminis

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg46363.html
[Biofuel] Monsanto versus Farmers

Best

Keith



Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote:

Yes Monsanto and others have used absolutely dispicable tactics 
against some U.S. and Canadian farmers
who found some of their gm plants on their land. I also understand 
that they just purchased the largest seed coumpany in the world. 
Name escapes me right now but that particular seed co. supplies 
most of the worlds
vegetable and fruit seeds. I fear what these megacorps have planned 
with teminator seeds for tomatoes, lettuce and virtually all our 
fruits and vegtables once manipulated to not produce viable seeds 
or germinate the next year. They are programmed to die after one 
season so farmers have to buy a new batch of seeds each year from 
...guess who?



regards
tallex

---Original Message---


From: Richard B [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism
Sent: 08 Aug '05 18:34

Monsanto is a prime player in predatory, monopolistic practices, trying
to pass laws to lock the little guy out. Check out
http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=343.  If Monsanto has its way, we will
have to pay royalties to do anything with seeds, including growing
plants to produce biofuels.

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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

2005-08-08 Thread rich


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Burpee?



Seminis.

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg44318.html
[Biofuel] Monsanto buys Seminis

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg46363.html
[Biofuel] Monsanto versus Farmers

Best

Keith



Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote:

Yes Monsanto and others have used absolutely dispicable tactics 
against some U.S. and Canadian farmers
who found some of their gm plants on their land. I also understand 
that they just purchased the largest seed coumpany in the world. 
Name escapes me right now but that particular seed co. supplies most 
of the worlds
vegetable and fruit seeds. I fear what these megacorps have planned 
with teminator seeds for tomatoes, lettuce and virtually all our 
fruits and vegtables once manipulated to not produce viable seeds or 
germinate the next year. They are programmed to die after one season 
so farmers have to buy a new batch of seeds each year from ...guess 
who?



regards
tallex

---Original Message---


From: Richard B [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism
Sent: 08 Aug '05 18:34

Monsanto is a prime player in predatory, monopolistic practices, 
trying

to pass laws to lock the little guy out. Check out
http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=343.  If Monsanto has its way, we 
will

have to pay royalties to do anything with seeds, including growing
plants to produce biofuels.

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I wonder if a number of like-minded, right-minded  people who would 
massively buy shares of a monopoly company such as Monsanto could do?  
Would they be able to steer the company towards less abusive business 
practices through changes to its internal structure via proxy proposals?


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Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly

2005-08-08 Thread Appal Energy


Derick,

Still, treat a small sample with concentrated sufuric or phosphoric acid 
and observe.


Todd Swearingen


DERICK GIORCHINO wrote:


Thanks for the response. I feel that I may not have explained that there
isn't a layer it's almost a solid mass. It is about 95 deg f outside and if
I turn the soda bottle on its side it slides inside the bottle as one lump
retaining the shape of the bottom of the bottle. If I shake it hard it does
brake up somewhat. Kind of like when the old super ball was broken.
I feel that I now have super glop.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Appal Energy
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 5:51 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly

 


But is the jelly a typical sign of over dosing?
I have a problem with disposing of the mess I
have made if there is a way to salvage it.
   



Take a small sample and see how much concentrated sulfuric or phosphoric
acid it takes to crack the soap portion of the top jelly layer.

This is the same thing that is done with the glyc cocktail to recover the
free fatty acids.

Todd Swearingen




DERICK GIORCHINO wrote:

 


Hi Keith More
Thanks for you response.
I tried the world famous chop stick titration technique. Wow what a
difference in my titration  #.
I did a 1 ltr test in a soda bottle, with excellent result almost
   


instantly.
 

But here is where I got into trouble. 
The next batch was 20 liters I had some methoxide mixed from a prior batch

that was also a failure and I couldn't figure what to do with the toxic mix
so I tried to dilute it to 10 g.p. liter. I did my mixing of the 20 liters.
As it cooled it turned into what looks like lard. I felt that I may have
overdosed it. So I then took some test bottles and put 20% failure oil and
75% fresh wvo set it in the sun to melt/ liquefy. (105 deg F) shook it hard
also a 50/50 mix in the hot state it seamed to separate better 25/75 than
the 50/50 but as the sun went down and it cooled the 25/75 started to jell
and the glycerol layer vanished but the 50/50 looked much better with a
glycerol layer jelled at the bottom. I m not asking for a fix. But is the
jelly a typical sign of over dosing? I have a problem with disposing of the
mess I have made if there is a way to salvage it.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:58 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution

Hi Derick



   


May be there is some help for me out there. I have made lots and lots of
test batches. Most of them bad not good. One border line. And one 15 gal
batch with fairly good results. I have used all the options given for
titration in the J.T. Forever. Test strips work
  

 


... poorly, if at all, and are not recommended by JtF.



   


but after introducing it to
the mix I find if I need to add more solution the color will not change so
  

 


I


   


need to add strip after strip as I add the solution accuracy is probably
  

 


off


   


by the time I get done P.H. meter a good one I found to be about the same
  

 

pH meters work well, especially if it's a good one, you shouldn't be 
having problems.




   


and I have used phenolphthalein and get excellent response but im no
  

 


chemist

Very few of us are.



   


can anyone tell me how much phenolphthalein to use on the test I have been
using 2 drops @ 1% phenolphthalein. The instructions from J.T.F say use
 


1%
 


phenolphthalein solution (1.0w/v%). If you can please help. Thanks Derick
  

 

You say: The instructions from J.T.F say use 1% phenolphthalein 
solution (1.0w/v%).


The instructions at JtF say: Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution.

Dissolve 1 gm of lye in 1 litre of distilled water (0.1% w/v lye 
solution). In a smaller beaker, dissolve 1 ml of the cooled oil in 10 
ml of pure isopropyl alcohol. Warm the beaker gently by standing it 
in some hot water, stir until all the oil dissolves in the alcohol 
and turns clear. Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution. Using a 
graduated syringe, add 0.1% lye solution drop by drop to the 
oil-alcohol-phenolphthalein solution, stirring all the time, until 
the solution starts to turn pink and stays that way for 10 seconds.


-- From: Biodiesel from waste oil
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodwvo

See also:

More about lye
How much lye to use?
Basic titration
Better titration
Accurate measurements
pH meters
Phenolphthalein
pH meters vs phenolphthalein

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye

Are your scales, measuring equipment and measuring techniques up to
   


scratch?
 


Best wishes

Keith




   


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Probst, Peter
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:44 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel]

Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup


Sorry Mike.

I can't help you decide what to do with it. However, I remember threads on this list that talk about very effective, natural solutions in the garden.

Does anyone remember?

Mike
Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Arrgg. Why did you have send that? Now I have get rid of a gallon of that crap. Anyone know how to render it safe before disposal?Also, does anyone have any ideas on using concentrated vinegar to control weeds?I had no idea it was so deadly.-Mike___
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Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup





Hi All,

Let me thank everyone involved for the information on these companies. If you think this is doing little good think again. I used the material here with a bit of filtering to teach my Environmental Science class today. The more folks who get the word out the fewer customers Monsanto and others will have. My opinion is don´t buy a dime´s worth of stock from this company or any like it. Get this information out and educate the public. Don´t buy GM products either. Buy local and buy organic. The only place to hurt a mindless, souless, heartless corporation is on its balance sheet. It´s the only thing this entity cares about and its the only way to stop it.

Tom Irwin



From: Mike Weaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:09:18 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking RoundupArrgg. Why did you have send that? Now I have get rid of a gallon of that crap. Anyone know how to render it safe before disposal?Also, does anyone have any ideas on using concentrated vinegar to control weeds?I had no idea it was so deadly.-MikeMichael Redler wrote: More on Roundup and Monsanto: *Drugs war in Columbia - the true cost *The true cost of the US’s so-called “drugs war” in Columbia (see  Environment Health News 16 p13) is mounting. There have now been 4,000  human and 178,000 animal reported cases of serious skin, eye,  respiratory and digestive problems due to the mass spraying of  Monsanto’s Roundup and Roundup Ultra herbicides. [more] http://www.ehn.clara.net/pesticides.html *Monsanto A brief introduction to the Monsanto Corporation* Monsanto is a humanitarian's worst nightmare. A company who plays the PR game so well that many of the people who consume their products  have never even heard of them, they were responsible for manufacturing  Agent Orange, the extremely toxic defoliant which the U.S. military  sprayed all over Vietnam (and consequently, also American GI's) in the  60s and 70's. Agent Orange, which contained large amounts of the  deadly chemical Dioxin, has now been banned worldwide and is still  affecting the Vietnamese people two generations later. It is also  largely believed to be the main cause for many of the illnesses  associated with soldiers returning home from Vietnam. From 1962 to  1970, the US military sprayed 72 million liters of herbicides, mostly  Agent Orange, on over one million Vietnamese civilians and over  100,000 U.S. troops. As a result, within ten years of the close of the  war, 9,170 veterans had filed claims for disabilities caused by Agent  Orange. The VA denied compensation to 7,709, saying that a facial rash  was the only disease associated with exposure. In 2002, Vietnam  requested assistance in dealing with the tens of thousands of birth  defects due to Agent Orange. In order to avoid medical compensation  expenses, Monsanto continues to claim this now banned chemical is not  toxic. Monsanto's most commonly used product on the market today is  glyphosate, or "Roundup." It is a similarly deadly defoliant that is  used to eradicate "invasive" plants around telephone poles, on  sidewalks and farms all over the world and most commonly within the  US. One of the major consumers of Roundup is the United States  military, who under the guise of the "War on Drugs," sprays the  defoliant from helicopters in and around small villages in the  sovereign country of Columbia in South America, claiming to be  targeting coca plantation. Coca is the mildly stimulating plant which  is the main ingredient in the production of Cocaine Hydrochloride,  commonly known by Americans as "Coke" or "Cocaine." [more] http://www.thehumanrevolution.org/monsanto.html */Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:23:57 GMT From: "Pesticide Action Network North America" Subject: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup  Rethinking Roundup August 5, 2005  A recent study of Roundup presents new evidence that the glyphosate-based herbicide is far more toxic than the active ingredient alone. The study, published in the June 2005 issue of Environmental Health Perspectives, reports glyphosate toxicity to human placental cells within hours of exposure, at levels ten times lower than those found in agricultural use. The researchers also tested glyphosate and Roundup at lower concentrations for effects on sexual hormones, reporting effects at very low levels. This suggests that dilution with other ingredients in Roundup may, in fact, facilitate glyphosate's hormonal impacts.  Roundup, produced by Monsanto, is a mixture of glyphosate and other chemicals (commonly referred to as "inerts") designed to increase the herbicide's penetration into the target and its toxic effect. Since inerts are not listed as "active ingredients" the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)does not assess their health or environmental impacts, despite the fact that more than 300 chemicals on EPA's list of pesticide inert ingredients are or were once registered

Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup





Hi Mike,

If you´re in the U.S. you can drop it off at your local household hazardous waste collection site. Call and see how much they will accept. You might have to transfer it into four 1 liter containers so you don´t have to pay for disposal. They usually take this stuff to a cement kiln and burn it at very high temperatures or if you´re lucky to a hazardous waste incinerator. 

Tom Irwin


From: Mike Weaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:09:18 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking RoundupArrgg. Why did you have send that? Now I have get rid of a gallon of that crap. Anyone know how to render it safe before disposal?Also, does anyone have any ideas on using concentrated vinegar to control weeds?I had no idea it was so deadly.-MikeMichael Redler wrote: More on Roundup and Monsanto: *Drugs war in Columbia - the true cost *The true cost of the US’s so-called “drugs war” in Columbia (see  Environment Health News 16 p13) is mounting. There have now been 4,000  human and 178,000 animal reported cases of serious skin, eye,  respiratory and digestive problems due to the mass spraying of  Monsanto’s Roundup and Roundup Ultra herbicides. [more] http://www.ehn.clara.net/pesticides.html *Monsanto A brief introduction to the Monsanto Corporation* Monsanto is a humanitarian's worst nightmare. A company who plays the PR game so well that many of the people who consume their products  have never even heard of them, they were responsible for manufacturing  Agent Orange, the extremely toxic defoliant which the U.S. military  sprayed all over Vietnam (and consequently, also American GI's) in the  60s and 70's. Agent Orange, which contained large amounts of the  deadly chemical Dioxin, has now been banned worldwide and is still  affecting the Vietnamese people two generations later. It is also  largely believed to be the main cause for many of the illnesses  associated with soldiers returning home from Vietnam. From 1962 to  1970, the US military sprayed 72 million liters of herbicides, mostly  Agent Orange, on over one million Vietnamese civilians and over  100,000 U.S. troops. As a result, within ten years of the close of the  war, 9,170 veterans had filed claims for disabilities caused by Agent  Orange. The VA denied compensation to 7,709, saying that a facial rash  was the only disease associated with exposure. In 2002, Vietnam  requested assistance in dealing with the tens of thousands of birth  defects due to Agent Orange. In order to avoid medical compensation  expenses, Monsanto continues to claim this now banned chemical is not  toxic. Monsanto's most commonly used product on the market today is  glyphosate, or "Roundup." It is a similarly deadly defoliant that is  used to eradicate "invasive" plants around telephone poles, on  sidewalks and farms all over the world and most commonly within the  US. One of the major consumers of Roundup is the United States  military, who under the guise of the "War on Drugs," sprays the  defoliant from helicopters in and around small villages in the  sovereign country of Columbia in South America, claiming to be  targeting coca plantation. Coca is the mildly stimulating plant which  is the main ingredient in the production of Cocaine Hydrochloride,  commonly known by Americans as "Coke" or "Cocaine." [more] http://www.thehumanrevolution.org/monsanto.html */Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:23:57 GMT From: "Pesticide Action Network North America" Subject: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup  Rethinking Roundup August 5, 2005  A recent study of Roundup presents new evidence that the glyphosate-based herbicide is far more toxic than the active ingredient alone. The study, published in the June 2005 issue of Environmental Health Perspectives, reports glyphosate toxicity to human placental cells within hours of exposure, at levels ten times lower than those found in agricultural use. The researchers also tested glyphosate and Roundup at lower concentrations for effects on sexual hormones, reporting effects at very low levels. This suggests that dilution with other ingredients in Roundup may, in fact, facilitate glyphosate's hormonal impacts.  Roundup, produced by Monsanto, is a mixture of glyphosate and other chemicals (commonly referred to as "inerts") designed to increase the herbicide's penetration into the target and its toxic effect. Since inerts are not listed as "active ingredients" the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)does not assess their health or environmental impacts, despite the fact that more than 300 chemicals on EPA's list of pesticide inert ingredients are or were once registered as pesticide active ingredients, and that inert ingredients often account for more than 50% of the pesticide product by volume.  The evidence presented in the recent study is supported by earlier laboratory studies connecting glyphosate with reproductive harm, including damaged DNA in

Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup

2005-08-08 Thread Garth Kim Travis


Greetings,
Concentrated vinegar, sprayed on a hot sunny day will kill post emergent 
weeds, if it does not rain within the next few days.  It will also kill any 
earthworms it comes in contact with. If used too much, it will also affect 
the ph of your soil and harm some of the bacteria, but the effect is not 
lasting beyond the next good rain.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 04:09 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote:
Arrgg. Why did you have send that? Now I have get rid of a gallon of that 
crap. Anyone know how to render it safe before disposal?
Also, does anyone have any ideas on using concentrated vinegar to control 
weeds?


I had no idea it was so deadly.

-Mike


Michael Redler wrote:


More on Roundup and Monsanto:
*Drugs war in Columbia - the true cost
*The true cost of the US's so-called drugs war in Columbia (see 
Environment Health News 16 p13) is mounting. There have now been 4,000 
human and 178,000 animal reported cases of serious skin, eye, respiratory 
and digestive problems due to the mass spraying of Monsanto's Roundup and 
Roundup Ultra herbicides.

[more]
http://www.ehn.clara.net/pesticides.html
*Monsanto
A brief introduction to the Monsanto Corporation*
Monsanto is a humanitarian's worst nightmare. A company who plays
the PR game so well that many of the people who consume their products 
have never even heard of them, they were responsible for manufacturing 
Agent Orange, the extremely toxic defoliant which the U.S. military 
sprayed all over Vietnam (and consequently, also American GI's) in the 
60s and 70's. Agent Orange, which contained large amounts of the deadly 
chemical Dioxin, has now been banned worldwide and is still affecting the 
Vietnamese people two generations later. It is also largely believed to 
be the main cause for many of the illnesses associated with soldiers 
returning home from Vietnam. From 1962 to 1970, the US military sprayed 
72 million liters of herbicides, mostly Agent Orange, on over one million 
Vietnamese civilians and over 100,000 U.S. troops. As a result, within 
ten years of the close of the war, 9,170 veterans had filed claims for 
disabilities caused by Agent Orange. The VA denied compensation to 7,709, 
saying that a facial rash was the only disease associated with exposure. 
In 2002, Vietnam requested assistance in dealing with the tens of 
thousands of birth defects due to Agent Orange. In order to avoid medical 
compensation expenses, Monsanto continues to claim this now banned 
chemical is not toxic.
Monsanto's most commonly used product on the market today is glyphosate, 
or Roundup. It is a similarly deadly defoliant that is used to 
eradicate invasive plants around telephone poles, on sidewalks and 
farms all over the world and most commonly within the US. One of the 
major consumers of Roundup is the United States military, who under the 
guise of the War on Drugs, sprays the defoliant from helicopters in and 
around small villages in the sovereign country of Columbia in South 
America, claiming to be targeting coca plantation. Coca is the mildly 
stimulating plant which is the main ingredient in the production of 
Cocaine Hydrochloride, commonly known by Americans as Coke or Cocaine.

[more]
http://www.thehumanrevolution.org/monsanto.html

*/Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:23:57 GMT
From: Pesticide Action Network North America
Subject: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup

Rethinking Roundup
August 5, 2005

A recent study of Roundup presents new evidence that the
glyphosate-based herbicide is far more toxic than the active
ingredient alone. The study, published in the June 2005 issue of
Environmental Health Perspectives, reports glyphosate toxicity to
human placental cells within hours of exposure, at levels ten times
lower than those found in agricultural use. The researchers also
tested glyphosate and Roundup at lower concentrations for effects on
sexual hormones, reporting effects at very low levels. This suggests
that dilution with other ingredients in Roundup may, in fact,
facilitate glyphosate's hormonal impacts.

Roundup, produced by Monsanto, is a mixture of glyphosate and other
chemicals (commonly referred to as inerts) designed to increase
the herbicide's penetration into the target and its toxic effect.
Since inerts are not listed as active ingredients the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)does not assess their health or
environmental impacts, despite the fact that more than 300 chemicals
on EPA's list of pesticide inert ingredients are or were once
registered as pesticide active ingredients, and that inert
ingredients often account for more than 50% of the pesticide product
by volume.

The evidence presented in the recent study is supported by earlier
laboratory studies connecting glyphosate with reproductive harm,
including damaged DNA in mice and abnormal chromosomes in human

Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup

Right-on Tom!

This is the kind of encouragementthat I REALLY like to see.

"But, as men cannot engender new forces, but only unite and direct existing ones, they have no other means of preserving themselves than the formation, by aggregation, of a sum of forces great enough to overcome the resistance. These they have to bring into play by means of a single motive power, and cause to act in concert."

- Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi All,

Let me thank everyone involved for the information on these companies. If you think this is doing little good think again. I used the material here with a bit of filtering to teach my Environmental Science class today. The more folks who get the word out the fewer customers Monsanto and others will have. My opinion is donÂ´t buy a dimeÂ´s worth of stock from this company or any like it. Get this information out and educate the public. DonÂ´t buy GM products either. Buy local and buy organic. The only place to hurt a mindless, souless, heartless corporation is on its balance sheet. ItÂ´s the only thing this entity cares about and its the only way to stop it.

Tom Irwin___
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Re: [Biofuel] Improving Ethanol Distilation Efficiency

2005-08-08 Thread marilyn

I know someone who developed a way to remove alcohol during 
fermentation, which would greatly cut the cost of making ethanol. 
I am trying to find people to link up with to replicate the process 
because he has dropped it. I did a search for remove alcohol 
during fermentation on your web site and on google and found 
nothing. Does anyone out there know of someone who has done 
this?
Marilyn


Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote:
Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

It takes approximately the same energy to produce ethanol, as 
you get out of using ethanol. ...The distillation process is the 
major loss of energy.

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Re: [Biofuel] saddam and sanctions (was: Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in history)

robert,

there is a lot of myth swirling around this issue.  the sanctions did result 
in severe hardships for the people of iraq.  however, once the oil for food 
program got under way, things really started to turn around.  by the time 
'shock 
and awe' started, the UN-administered program had kicked serious butt on 
hunger and malnutrition, as well as a whole series of health/welfare indices 
like 
various illnesses, the water and education infrastructures, etc.  Baghdad was 
beginning to prosper once again, as well.

now, as far as s. h.'s spending priorities during the first few years of 
sanctions, i expect a serious case could be made against him.  however, it is 
incumbent on whomsoever should wish to condemn him to provide an accurate and 
thorough accounting of his government's actual spending during that time 
period, 
and demonstrate that the cost of preventing the hunger, malnutrition, illness, 
etc., as well as rebuilding his country, would not have exceeded his 
government's means.  for if it were beyond his government's means, then the 
u.s.a. 
would indeed be to blame.

more realistically, though, the u.s.a. bears some blame because it would be 
almost self-evident to anyone involved in the process, that health and welfare 
spending would be among the first things to get cut.

not to mention, does anyone else see the irony here?  after all, there is a 
lot of inequity, hunger and malnutrition in the united states, and we don't 
even have sanctions to blame it on. . . .

-chris b.

In a message dated 8/8/05 10:31:46 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

That said, I have a question that perhaps someone out there can address,  
re: 
Dysentery, starvation (due to ten years of sanctions) and war in  Iraq., 
specifically concerning the sanctions.  Whatever the US role  in those 
sanctions, it has always seemed to me that Saddam Hussein had the  resources 
to address 
the basic health/sanitation needs of his people but instead  chose to spend 
it on a lavish lifestyle for himself, his family, and supporters,  and on 
other 
nonessentials compared to basic needs.  Yet, almost  without exception, the 
US gets blamed for this humanitarian disaster during the  sanctions.  Why? 


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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

no doubt,  eventually, one of their gmo's will have the 'accidental' side 
effect of respiring a specific isotope of oxygen, thus enabling monsanto to 
hold 
patent rights on any unit of atmosphere in which this isotope is found. . . .

-chris b.


In a message dated 8/8/05 12:35:20 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Monsanto is a prime player in predatory, monopolistic practices, trying 

to pass laws to lock the little guy out. Check out 

http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=343.  If Monsanto has its way, we will 

have to pay royalties to do anything with seeds, including growing 

plants to produce biofuels. 


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Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima





Hi folks,

I hope everyone is reading all the attachments to articles on this topic. I found theone in the Weekly Standard to be very credible. Thanks Greg and April for thisinformation. Perhaps that´s my own personal bias. How would you attack this Chris B. and Hakan? More government propaganda?
Why Truman Dropped the Bomb From the August 8, 2005 issue: Sixty years after Hiroshima, we now have the secret intercepts that shaped his decision. by Richard B. Frank 08/08/2005, Volume 010, Issue 44
Tom Irwin



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:49:37 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshimadoug,*Part* of the Japanese government was trying to find a way to surrender,you've been misinformed. this is a misrepresentation of the facts. it was hirohito himself, quite on his own, that asked the soviets to mediate a peace. later, the government junta voted unanimously in favor of sending an envoy to moscow. the peace faction and the hardliners had their own reasons for supporting the idea, but the point is that they took that action in the first place because hirohito wanted them to.these events transpired because the situation in japan was progressively deteriorating. there were growing fears that total social and economic collapse, and, therefore, most likely political collapse as well, were imminent.furthermore, it was not the united states' intent to force a quick surrender by using the bombs. that simply did not enter into the calculus i.e. saving so many american or japanese lives was not the motivation for nuking japan.It's not clear that the U.S. population wouldhave accepted just hanging around fully mobilized at war waiting forsix months or a year until the Japaneseyou're presenting kind of a worst case scenario of how a blockade strategy, as opposed to invading, might have unfolded. besides, the disposition of the american people is a red herring and highly speculative (another echo of the 'aussie gun control' argument). nor does it have any bearing on whether or not bombing hiroshima and nagasaki were inhumane.-chris b.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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[Biofuel] Turkeys