Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
Being an American has nothing to do with a really bad data design. I've been an American 35 years and I think this is really not a good way to model sidewalks. The problem (aside from the issue of data clutter) is that the sidewalk data can't be used for pedestrian routing because the information about the street is not captured. You can't tell someone to follow Main Street, because the path is not labeled as such. In my experience, people trace the sidewalk because it looks pretty in the renderer. What we really want is better rendering of sidewalk tags, not data which can't be used. - Serge On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 9:36 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: As an American, I'd say tracing out the sidewalk is perfectly legitimate, considering jaywalking laws that typically apply in locations with sidewalks, the total non universal nature of sidewalks. On May 1, 2014 11:40 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: It is my understanding that in the US the roadway design in a urban/suburban environment includes the sidewalks, possibly a parkway/planting strip, the curbs and the traveled way. From that point of view I'd only consider mapping a walkway as a separate way only if it did not run parallel and close to the road. -Tod On May 1, 2014, at 8:35 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: Here in Nashville TN, sidewalks in some business districts alternate every few yards between having concrete extend all of the way to the curb, and having planted strips with grass, flowers, and small trees between the sidewalk and the curb. It would be rather tedious to have the tagging have to alternate between sidewalk and footway every few yards. On April 30, 2014 11:19:31 PM CDT, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Kai Krueger writes: But in the US (at least in suburbia), the sidewalks are often much more detached from the road with wide grass strips between them. They also sometimes aren't entirely parallel to the road. Indeed. In Potsdam, NY, we get enough snow that we need those wide grass strips to plow the snow onto. But they're not practical in some places, so the sidewalk can come close to the road in places. It's still a sidewalk, though, and not a way of its own. There is not a wonderful solution for how do map pedestrian routing when it differs from road-associated routing. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
2014-05-08 11:58 GMT+02:00 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com: Being an American has nothing to do with a really bad data design. I've been an American 35 years and I think this is really not a good way to model sidewalks. +1, agree, my main concern is that as pedestrian you can actually cross a road at any point if it is not too much traffic and there are no other rules forbidding it. Generally with explicity footways routing gets worse in my experience because there mostly only few connections from the sidewalk to the road mapped. There is no way to distinguish separate footways (e.g. separated by a guard rail) from those separated only by a curb. If mapping explicit sidewalks there should also be some entity that ties all road lanes (and sidewalks) together to one object. On the pro side you can add surface, width and other information to where they apply, while with tags on the main centre highway way you would have to split the whole road for every change on the sidewalk (or any other of its lanes). The problem (aside from the issue of data clutter) is that the sidewalk data can't be used for pedestrian routing because the information about the street is not captured. You can't tell someone to follow Main Street, because the path is not labeled as such. well, you should either use a relation to tie them toghether, or add the common attributes like name etc. to all elements (i.e. also to the sidewalk). In the end this is a question of detail, for very detailed mapping there is a benefit IMHO in mapping sidewalks on dedicated objects, but I'd see this more like explicit lane mapping, i.e. better use another tag than highway for this in order to avoid confusion with indipendent footways. cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 4:58 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: I've been an American 35 years and I think this is really not a good way to model sidewalks. Ok, serge, well how do you address my issues here in Kansas. How will you model that you have sidewalks of different quality for each property on both sides. I don't know what you mean by quality but if a sidewalk isn't usable as a sidewalk, then don't label it as such, just as I wouldn't be inclined to map a road that's unusable as a usable road. How are we going to model damaged sidewalks as I wrote? Adding in points on the sidewalk way? If you insist on micromapping, then you can use complex objects like relations, but your is a special case, most sidewalks mapped are not micromapped in the same way. In other words, I wouldn't bother to map sidewalks that are not usable. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
On Thu, 2014-05-08 at 05:58 -0400, Serge Wroclawski wrote: The problem (aside from the issue of data clutter) is that the sidewalk data can't be used for pedestrian routing because the information about the street is not captured. You can't tell someone to follow Main Street, because the path is not labeled as such. Could this problem be alleviated with a tag on the separately mapped footway, e.g. road_name? Or even just addr:street? James ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
2014-05-08 17:46 GMT+02:00 James Umbanhowar jumba...@gmail.com: Could this problem be alleviated with a tag on the separately mapped footway, e.g. road_name? Or even just addr:street? why not make it simple and use name? As long as the sidewalk is part of the road this would be correct. cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
As an American, I'd say tracing out the sidewalk is perfectly legitimate, considering jaywalking laws that typically apply in locations with sidewalks, the total non universal nature of sidewalks. On May 1, 2014 11:40 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: It is my understanding that in the US the roadway design in a urban/suburban environment includes the sidewalks, possibly a parkway/planting strip, the curbs and the traveled way. From that point of view I'd only consider mapping a walkway as a separate way only if it did not run parallel and close to the road. -Tod On May 1, 2014, at 8:35 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: Here in Nashville TN, sidewalks in some business districts alternate every few yards between having concrete extend all of the way to the curb, and having planted strips with grass, flowers, and small trees between the sidewalk and the curb. It would be rather tedious to have the tagging have to alternate between sidewalk and footway every few yards. On April 30, 2014 11:19:31 PM CDT, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Kai Krueger writes: But in the US (at least in suburbia), the sidewalks are often much more detached from the road with wide grass strips between them. They also sometimes aren't entirely parallel to the road. Indeed. In Potsdam, NY, we get enough snow that we need those wide grass strips to plow the snow onto. But they're not practical in some places, so the sidewalk can come close to the road in places. It's still a sidewalk, though, and not a way of its own. There is not a wonderful solution for how do map pedestrian routing when it differs from road-associated routing. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 6:36 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: As an American, I'd say tracing out the sidewalk is perfectly legitimate, considering jaywalking laws that typically apply in locations with sidewalks, the total non universal nature of sidewalks. +1 -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
Here in Nashville TN, sidewalks in some business districts alternate every few yards between having concrete extend all of the way to the curb, and having planted strips with grass, flowers, and small trees between the sidewalk and the curb. It would be rather tedious to have the tagging have to alternate between sidewalk and footway every few yards. On April 30, 2014 11:19:31 PM CDT, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Kai Krueger writes: But in the US (at least in suburbia), the sidewalks are often much more detached from the road with wide grass strips between them. They also sometimes aren't entirely parallel to the road. Indeed. In Potsdam, NY, we get enough snow that we need those wide grass strips to plow the snow onto. But they're not practical in some places, so the sidewalk can come close to the road in places. It's still a sidewalk, though, and not a way of its own. There is not a wonderful solution for how do map pedestrian routing when it differs from road-associated routing. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which wouldn't be a problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in everyone's stylesheets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112 Should I: 1. Revert 2. Get in touch with the editor 3. Get over it Thanks! -Bill Morris @vtcraghead -- William Morris | Cartographer (802)-870-0880 | geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
Certainly your first move should be to contact the user, gently point her/him to the consensus method for tagging sidewalks, and ask the mapper to correct their work. Hopefully, an appeal to enlightened self-interest as well as the quality of the map, will prevail. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 There are two types of people in the world. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete data. On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:38 AM, William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.comwrote: Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which wouldn't be a problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in everyone's stylesheets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112 Should I: 1. Revert 2. Get in touch with the editor 3. Get over it Thanks! -Bill Morris @vtcraghead -- William Morris | Cartographer (802)-870-0880 | geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
Hi I think highway=footway for a sidewalk is 100% ok. Also I get the impression that the tagging is not settled yet either. Jason On Wednesday, April 30, 2014, William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.com wrote: Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which wouldn't be a problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in everyone's stylesheets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112 Should I: 1. Revert 2. Get in touch with the editor 3. Get over it Thanks! -Bill Morris @vtcraghead -- William Morris | Cartographer (802)-870-0880 | geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org javascript:; https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
Wait, what is the consensus method for tagging sidewalks? I haven't done a lot of them but I know I've added a few as footways myself. Toby On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.comwrote: Certainly your first move should be to contact the user, gently point her/him to the consensus method for tagging sidewalks, and ask the mapper to correct their work. Hopefully, an appeal to enlightened self-interest as well as the quality of the map, will prevail. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 There are two types of people in the world. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete data. On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:38 AM, William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.com wrote: Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which wouldn't be a problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in everyone's stylesheets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112 Should I: 1. Revert 2. Get in touch with the editor 3. Get over it Thanks! -Bill Morris @vtcraghead -- William Morris | Cartographer (802)-870-0880 | geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
On 4/30/2014 11:38 AM, William Morris wrote: Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. It does add a great deal of clutter to those maps that render footways. But for those who wish to be able to use OSM data for accurate pedestrian or handicapped routing, the only way is to draw all the sidewalks, curb cuts, and pedestrian crossings. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
* Mike N nice...@att.net [140430 18:21]: On 4/30/2014 11:38 AM, William Morris wrote: Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. It does add a great deal of clutter to those maps that render footways. But for those who wish to be able to use OSM data for accurate pedestrian or handicapped routing, the only way is to draw all the sidewalks, curb cuts, and pedestrian crossings. AFAICS there are basically two ways in use to get information on sidewalks into OSM: - map sidewalks as separate ways - use http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sidewalk to add information on sidewalks to the main highway. Both methods should be usable for pedestrian routing; using separate ways allows for more detailed micro-mapping, e.g. width and paving of the sidewalk, but is a lot more difficult to get it right because you need to connect these ways with the main highway everywhere a pedestrian could cross the highway. Wolfgang ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
On 04/30/2014 11:38 AM, William Morris wrote: Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which wouldn't be a problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in everyone's stylesheets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112 Should I: 1. Revert 2. Get in touch with the editor 3. Get over it Thanks! -Bill Morris @vtcraghead Hi Bill :) I was following the tagging at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:footway%3Dsidewalk I'm personally not a fan of the way Mapnik renders footways (I'd prefer a thin grey line rather than a dotted red line), but it hasn't yet bothered me enough to propose a Mapnik change--in large part because at low zooms the roads cover the sidewalks. Do you have any concerns other than display? The wiki mentions some like it being harder for a pedestrian router to say something like Follow the sidewalk along main street with sidewalks as separate ways. If you have this or any other concern, I'm happy to add more detail to help mitigate them. --Andrew ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
This is not the OSMF becoming involved in tagging :-) I'm guilty of quite a bit of sidewalk mapping, even though I have some sympathy for a generalized approach (adding a tag to the main road way). In reality, at least here, this tends not to model the actual topology particularly well. I do a fair bit off inline skating route mapping and sidewalks tend to be even more important than for pedestrians. Paths that really have the character of sidewalks I tag with highway=footway footway=sidewalk this allows renderers and routers to ignore them if they so please. The only tricky part is to remember to connect paths that cross the sidewalk not just to it, but to the road itself too, and add extra connections where appropriate (roads branching off or crossing the main road). Simon. Am 30.04.2014 17:59, schrieb Toby Murray: Wait, what is the consensus method for tagging sidewalks? I haven't done a lot of them but I know I've added a few as footways myself. Toby On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.com mailto:sejohns...@gmail.com wrote: Certainly your first move should be to contact the user, gently point her/him to the consensus method for tagging sidewalks, and ask the mapper to correct their work. Hopefully, an appeal to enlightened self-interest as well as the quality of the map, will prevail. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 There are two types of people in the world. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete data. On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:38 AM, William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.com mailto:wboyk...@geosprocket.com wrote: Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which wouldn't be a problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in everyone's stylesheets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112 Should I: 1. Revert 2. Get in touch with the editor 3. Get over it Thanks! -Bill Morris @vtcraghead -- William Morris | Cartographer (802)-870-0880 tel:%28802%29-870-0880 | geosprocket.io http://geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
Aha - I was wondering if that was you, Andrew :) I think I'll go with option 3 and get over it. It's a very good point that routing and micro-targeted applications could benefit from unique sidewalk ways, so I'll adjust my cartography accordingly. I like that this has implications for OSM as data rather than OSM as map tiles . . . Thanks! -Bill -- William Morris | Cartographer (802)-870-0880 | geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 1:12 PM, talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote: Send Talk-us mailing list submissions to talk-us@openstreetmap.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org You can reach the person managing the list at talk-us-ow...@openstreetmap.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Talk-us digest... Today's Topics: 1. Sidewalks as footpaths (William Morris) 2. Re: Sidewalks as footpaths (Steven Johnson) 3. Re: Sidewalks as footpaths (Jason Remillard) 4. Re: Sidewalks as footpaths (Toby Murray) 5. Re: Sidewalks as footpaths (Mike N) 6. Re: Sidewalks as footpaths (Wolfgang Zenker) 7. Re: Sidewalks as footpaths (Andrew Guertin) -- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 11:38:26 -0400 From: William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.com To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths Message-ID: CAP42Bmjpq3nRji8m5+Dup3wKrbD71NmaSaScWhJtv=n95rn...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which wouldn't be a problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in everyone's stylesheets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112 Should I: 1. Revert 2. Get in touch with the editor 3. Get over it Thanks! -Bill Morris @vtcraghead -- William Morris | Cartographer (802)-870-0880 | geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT -- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 11:47:42 -0400 From: Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.com To: William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.com Cc: talk-us@openstreetmap.org talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths Message-ID: cag4b_xtycw6ymvkqnss-wyanxmyndqw9mgskfp1wz+a+od9...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Certainly your first move should be to contact the user, gently point her/him to the consensus method for tagging sidewalks, and ask the mapper to correct their work. Hopefully, an appeal to enlightened self-interest as well as the quality of the map, will prevail. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 There are two types of people in the world. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete data. On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:38 AM, William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.comwrote: Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which wouldn't be a problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in everyone's stylesheets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112 Should I: 1. Revert 2. Get in touch with the editor 3. Get over it Thanks! -Bill Morris @vtcraghead -- William Morris | Cartographer (802)-870-0880 | geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/attachments/20140430/0c0d8ee7/attachment-0001.html -- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 11:58:46 -0400 From: Jason Remillard remillard.ja...@gmail.com To: William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.com Cc: talk-us@openstreetmap.org talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths Message-ID: CAEzHFJ7k000CYwUYQCyX_rvTn5u+mMAB+PgpJKK=gwmnot6...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi I think highway=footway for a sidewalk is 100% ok. Also I get the impression that the tagging is not settled yet either. Jason On Wednesday, April 30, 2014, William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.com wrote: Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
I do that too - but only when the sidewalk is really physically separate from the main roadway. So I would add a separate highway=footway here: http://binged.it/1fttMse But not here: http://binged.it/1heqqnR Generally - don't map for the renderer. If there is a clear use case and the data conforms with general guidelines for inclusion in the map I would suggest, yea, get over it :) Martijn On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:38 AM, William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.comwrote: Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which wouldn't be a problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in everyone's stylesheets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112 Should I: 1. Revert 2. Get in touch with the editor 3. Get over it Thanks! -Bill Morris @vtcraghead -- William Morris | Cartographer (802)-870-0880 | geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Martijn van Exel President, US Chapter OpenStreetMap http://openstreetmap.us/ http://osm.org/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
I have to apologize for using my @openstreetmap.us email address for the previous message - I only mean to use that for when I have something to communicate on behalf of the US chapter. Martijn On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:28 AM, Martijn van Exel mart...@openstreetmap.us wrote: I do that too - but only when the sidewalk is really physically separate from the main roadway. So I would add a separate highway=footway here: http://binged.it/1fttMse But not here: http://binged.it/1heqqnR Generally - don't map for the renderer. If there is a clear use case and the data conforms with general guidelines for inclusion in the map I would suggest, yea, get over it :) Martijn On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:38 AM, William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.comwrote: Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which wouldn't be a problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in everyone's stylesheets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112 Should I: 1. Revert 2. Get in touch with the editor 3. Get over it Thanks! -Bill Morris @vtcraghead -- William Morris | Cartographer (802)-870-0880 | geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Martijn van Exel President, US Chapter OpenStreetMap http://openstreetmap.us/ http://osm.org/ -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
Just to clarify, Martijn, are you saying example #1 is physically separate because there's a curb *and* a grassy median in between the street and sidewalk, but example #2 is not physically separate because there's only a curb in between? As a pedestrian, I would hope that a curb would be physically separate enough :) Brad On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Martijn van Exel mart...@openstreetmap.us wrote: I do that too - but only when the sidewalk is really physically separate from the main roadway. So I would add a separate highway=footway here: http://binged.it/1fttMse But not here: http://binged.it/1heqqnR Generally - don't map for the renderer. If there is a clear use case and the data conforms with general guidelines for inclusion in the map I would suggest, yea, get over it :) Martijn On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:38 AM, William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.comwrote: Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which wouldn't be a problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in everyone's stylesheets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112 Should I: 1. Revert 2. Get in touch with the editor 3. Get over it Thanks! -Bill Morris @vtcraghead -- William Morris | Cartographer (802)-870-0880 | geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Martijn van Exel President, US Chapter OpenStreetMap http://openstreetmap.us/ http://osm.org/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
Toby Murray-2 wrote Wait, what is the consensus method for tagging sidewalks? I haven't done a lot of them but I know I've added a few as footways myself. I have struggled with how best to map sidewalks in the US as well. In european cities my impression is that sidewalks are generally directly attached as part of the road, and they are typically just another (special) lane. So there you typically don't map the sidewalks as separate. Footways in those settings generally are real footways and thus deserve the prominence the style sheet gives them. But in the US (at least in suburbia), the sidewalks are often much more detached from the road with wide grass strips between them. They also sometimes aren't entirely parallel to the road. So there it makes more sense to map them as separate OSM ways rather than to use a sidewalk key on the main road. However, the separate ways also can have disadvantages for pedestrian routing. As a pedestrian, I would typically just cross a (non busy) road where ever I need to. If the sidewalks and roads are mapped separately, the router can't just tell you to cross the road though, but needs to route you to the next mapped intersection. One also needs to add a number of connection ways between roads and sidewalks which in that form doesn't really exist in reality, making the maps look even more messy. Not sure there is an ideal solution for this and we will likely see both explicit footway mapping and mapping as part of the road. It would still be good to come to somewhat more of a consensus on the topic though. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Sidewalks-as-footpaths-tp5804729p5804760.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
For me, there needs to be a physical separation that is more than just a curb between roadway and sidewalk to map it separately - like the grassy median in example 1 - but I don't claim any authority on the matter. If I were less lazy, I might also map the ones that just have a curb separating roadway and sidewalk. Martijn On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.comwrote: Just to clarify, Martijn, are you saying example #1 is physically separate because there's a curb *and* a grassy median in between the street and sidewalk, but example #2 is not physically separate because there's only a curb in between? As a pedestrian, I would hope that a curb would be physically separate enough :) Brad On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Martijn van Exel mart...@openstreetmap.us wrote: I do that too - but only when the sidewalk is really physically separate from the main roadway. So I would add a separate highway=footway here: http://binged.it/1fttMse But not here: http://binged.it/1heqqnR Generally - don't map for the renderer. If there is a clear use case and the data conforms with general guidelines for inclusion in the map I would suggest, yea, get over it :) Martijn On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:38 AM, William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.com wrote: Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which wouldn't be a problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in everyone's stylesheets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112 Should I: 1. Revert 2. Get in touch with the editor 3. Get over it Thanks! -Bill Morris @vtcraghead -- William Morris | Cartographer (802)-870-0880 | geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Martijn van Exel President, US Chapter OpenStreetMap http://openstreetmap.us/ http://osm.org/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
In Baltimore, I've refrained from tracing too many sidewalks, except when the sidewalk is part of one the the signed city paths. I have noticed that routing that uses OSM (like Strava) tends to choke if all the ways are not there, and also if there are overlapping segments without a node. I like the, *if it is separate* philosophy. On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Kai Krueger kakrue...@gmail.com wrote: Toby Murray-2 wrote Wait, what is the consensus method for tagging sidewalks? I haven't done a lot of them but I know I've added a few as footways myself. I have struggled with how best to map sidewalks in the US as well. In european cities my impression is that sidewalks are generally directly attached as part of the road, and they are typically just another (special) lane. So there you typically don't map the sidewalks as separate. Footways in those settings generally are real footways and thus deserve the prominence the style sheet gives them. But in the US (at least in suburbia), the sidewalks are often much more detached from the road with wide grass strips between them. They also sometimes aren't entirely parallel to the road. So there it makes more sense to map them as separate OSM ways rather than to use a sidewalk key on the main road. However, the separate ways also can have disadvantages for pedestrian routing. As a pedestrian, I would typically just cross a (non busy) road where ever I need to. If the sidewalks and roads are mapped separately, the router can't just tell you to cross the road though, but needs to route you to the next mapped intersection. One also needs to add a number of connection ways between roads and sidewalks which in that form doesn't really exist in reality, making the maps look even more messy. Not sure there is an ideal solution for this and we will likely see both explicit footway mapping and mapping as part of the road. It would still be good to come to somewhat more of a consensus on the topic though. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Sidewalks-as-footpaths-tp5804729p5804760.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Elliott Plack http://about.me/elliottp ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
Personally, I like to treat most sidewalks that are close to and basically parallel the same as attached ones. IE. both of Martijn's examples tagged as part of the roadway way. I would save the separate footpath highways for when it isn't a typical sidewalk. Wider exercise paths that are also part of a network. Portions may fall in the normal sidewalk but is part of a greater whole that does not. Large gaps between the road, more than 3 meters or even 5 meters Deviates from the road, in witch case make the path separate for that block/road segment. Example: http://binged.it/1hf8E3K 2 blocks of Upper Park Road along the park side has a normal sidewalk (I'd map part of the road way), but the rest on the park side I would map as independent footpath ways, even the winding parts that are along the road as they are part of the park sidewalk/exercise trail. But adding and maintaining all the individual sidewalks in the residential part separate form the roads seems counter productive. Dale Puch On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Elliott Plack elliott.pl...@gmail.comwrote: In Baltimore, I've refrained from tracing too many sidewalks, except when the sidewalk is part of one the the signed city paths. I have noticed that routing that uses OSM (like Strava) tends to choke if all the ways are not there, and also if there are overlapping segments without a node. I like the, *if it is separate* philosophy. On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Kai Krueger kakrue...@gmail.com wrote: Toby Murray-2 wrote Wait, what is the consensus method for tagging sidewalks? I haven't done a lot of them but I know I've added a few as footways myself. I have struggled with how best to map sidewalks in the US as well. In european cities my impression is that sidewalks are generally directly attached as part of the road, and they are typically just another (special) lane. So there you typically don't map the sidewalks as separate. Footways in those settings generally are real footways and thus deserve the prominence the style sheet gives them. But in the US (at least in suburbia), the sidewalks are often much more detached from the road with wide grass strips between them. They also sometimes aren't entirely parallel to the road. So there it makes more sense to map them as separate OSM ways rather than to use a sidewalk key on the main road. However, the separate ways also can have disadvantages for pedestrian routing. As a pedestrian, I would typically just cross a (non busy) road where ever I need to. If the sidewalks and roads are mapped separately, the router can't just tell you to cross the road though, but needs to route you to the next mapped intersection. One also needs to add a number of connection ways between roads and sidewalks which in that form doesn't really exist in reality, making the maps look even more messy. Not sure there is an ideal solution for this and we will likely see both explicit footway mapping and mapping as part of the road. It would still be good to come to somewhat more of a consensus on the topic though. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Sidewalks-as-footpaths-tp5804729p5804760.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Elliott Plack http://about.me/elliottp ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 06:43:31PM -0400, Dale Puch wrote: Personally, I like to treat most sidewalks that are close to and basically parallel the same as attached ones. IE. both of Martijn's examples tagged as part of the roadway way. I would save the separate footpath highways for when it isn't a typical sidewalk. I've seen in the wiki where one can add 'sidewalk=right|left|both|none' to a highway. I don't know if routing software looks at that or not. If so, one could attach that to roadways where the sidewalks are next to it and then manually map sidewalks as footways if they diverge from the roadway. Just a thought. I've mapped sidewalks both ways so I'm not sure which way is the correct way. --Eric pgpAeZ0ESFAw7.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote: It does add a great deal of clutter to those maps that render footways. But for those who wish to be able to use OSM data for accurate pedestrian or handicapped routing, the only way is to draw all the sidewalks, curb cuts, and pedestrian crossings. Only seems to do this if the stylesheet is poorly designed and doesn't put the most major way in such an array over the rest. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
Definitely 3, perhaps option 2 if you want rationale (hint: advanced pedestrian routing). On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:38 AM, William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.comwrote: Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway? User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which wouldn't be a problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in everyone's stylesheets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112 Should I: 1. Revert 2. Get in touch with the editor 3. Get over it Thanks! -Bill Morris @vtcraghead -- William Morris | Cartographer (802)-870-0880 | geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
