Re[2]: TB! WishList

[Eberhard Hafermalz]

Hello Allie,

Monday, May 01, 2000, 3:26:42 PM, you wrote:

>>> I am aware of that.  You define a template for that folder to add the
>>> mailing list address.  you hit CNTL-N and it is there.  What part of that does
>>> not coincide with what he wants?

>> Nothing. :-9

> Hmmm. Ok. Place this macro in the new message template for your TBUDL
> messages folder.

> %TO=""%TO="TB!UDL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"

> Now select the folder and hit CTRL+N. Isn't that what you want? This is
> what Steve was referring to.

Oops. Sorry. I had got that already from the first time Marck or Jast
mentioned it. I was just re-confirming what Steve said. Nothing did
not coincide with what I wanted. Shoulda made myself clearer. Double
negation is a little tricky.
-- 
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 Eberhard Hafermalz

All syllogisms have three parts, therefore this is not a syllogism.

Created with 1.42 Beta/20 - The only W98 mailer living up to the term...


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Re[2]: TB! WishList

[Eberhard Hafermalz]

Hello Steve,

Monday, May 01, 2000, 4:49:46 PM, you wrote:

> A different key?  HUH?  UHM, TB! allows you to check multiple accounts.
> It has automatic checking on those accounts.  You can filter from one account
> to another.  There are also products out there that are better suited to what
> you seem to want.  Use them.

Thanks for your kindness. I guess I will stick to TB! despite of what
you say. Thank God you don't seem to be the programmer. We had a great
mailer at its time on Amiga - it was called Voodoo. On the respective
mailing list the author was infamous for replies resembling yours. The
mailer went dead a short while after YAM appeared. YAM's
author, name of Marcel Beck, Swiss guy, listened to his users.
Apparently made a difference.

Being content is a good thing as it keeps you from losing touch with
reality. However being too content makes you blind to progress. Which
used to come about through discussion, trial, and error.
-- 
Best regards,
 Eberhard Hafermalz

If you're beautiful, admit it.

Created with 1.42 Beta/20 - The only W98 mailer living up to the term...


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Re[2]: TB! WishList

[Eberhard Hafermalz]

Hi Jast,

Monday, May 01, 2000, 3:25:53 PM, you wrote:

> Morning Eberhard,

>  I did a more detailed explanation on auto-completion quite some time ago,
>  but you'd have to search the archives for it as I lost it :-(

Hmm. I wonder if it is worth it as it doesn't really seem to work any
way I would wish it to work. So before I go on a fully-fledged hunting
spree I'm gonna try and fit all my addressees with nicks and that
should be it.

>> Hai! Sou desu yo! :-D

>  Japanese?

Yes.
-- 
Best regards,
 Eberhard Hafermalz

The caterpillar cannot
understand the butterfly. 

Created with 1.42 Beta/20 - The only W98 mailer living up to the term...


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Re: TB! WishList

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hi Stephen,

On Tue, 2 May 2000 07:34:04 +1000GMT (02/05/2000, 05:34 +0800GMT),
Stephen wrote:

S> So I think the title bar should at least say something like -

S> View Folder Bat of ServNet   Sorted by Receive Time (Ascending)

ServNet - Bat View Folder (...)

Why not mention the name fo the folder first, as Netscape mentions the
name of the web site first? This way, you don't have five buttons in
the task bar saying "View Fo..."

Just my 2c worth.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.  

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.41
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
on a Pentium II/350 MHz.



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Re: TB! WishList

[Allie Martin]

On Tue, 02 May 2000 03:43:42 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:

8<

> There are few lists where I usually read 10-20 messages, then close the
> message window and like to see where the cursor has stopped. Then I try
> to estimate how many messages on a given topic are left. Depending on
> that number, I eventually continue reading more messages (by opening
> them again in a separate window) or jump over in the list. I am speaking
> about heavily loaded mailing lists, where a long thread like "Re: TB!
> WishList" happens at least once a day :)

Have you thought of using the 'total' and 'total unread' columns in the
message list? It can easily tell you how many messages are in each thread
and how many messages in each thread are unread. You can therefore get the
exact information that you need instead of an estimate.

>>Finally, the sad fact that _you_ find no use for the separate message list 
>>doesn't mean _others_ don't need it.

> Of course not.
> Let the user decide - make it selectable.

So you need a synchronize windows option. At times one wonders where to
draw the line between making the best of what you have, and insisting or
wanting the program to be honed to do exactly what one wants, especially
when all users needs and tastes are pretty different.

Trying to adapt to the different approach to PMMails, which I think is
certainly more flexible and powerful, is what I tentatively propose. :-)

I tentatively :-) propose that you try not to fight the features and
instead use that energy to learn to use them to your advantage. You're
bound to have a culture shock. This is natural; but the user list buffers
this and our proposing different methodologies considering that the tool
is different from the one you previously used is only natural.

> Probably, but a user interface is a sum of minor things, that makes my
> life easier or harder.
> Strange, I am somewhat an experienced FIDONET user and The Bat! follows
> in certain sense the FIDO message style. However, I cannot follow the
> logic here, in the context discussed up now.

I fail to see the the problem with the logic.

Do you still have a problem with the next and previous buttons or is the
failure of logic in the lack of synchronisation of the message lists
between the main window and the view folder windows?

-- 
© 2000 Allie Martin   /*\   Using TB! v1.42 Beta/20 on Win2k Pro
---
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Re: TB! WishList

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Eberhard,


On  Sunday, April 30, 2000  at  17:39:53 GMT +0200 (which was 8:39 AM
where I live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed:


> Hello tracer,

> Sunday, April 30, 2000, 3:04:54 PM, you wrote:

 14. Account polling
 It would be nice to be able to poll any and all accounts into one in
 TB! instead of creating more than one at home.

>>> HUH?

>> I have this suspicion that this one surprised you Steve...
>> And not sure myself what is meant its hopefully not runing a different
>> installed Bat per account (g)
 
> Now I say HUH? ;-D

> What I mean is: use one account at home, on this here PC. Download all
> mail from different remote servers into this one account.

> Example: Say I use two accounts, one for MLs, one for private use (I
> don't but take the principle). I don't wanna keep them separate at
> home though - with TB! I have to either create two accounts at home,
> or make one of my external servers forward the stuff to the other.
> This creates bandwidth abuse.

 Options->Network & Administration-> Check Allow Local Delivery.  Then
 Set up one account with a filter that redirects everything to the
 other account.  No bandwidth abuse, but you get what you want.

>  So I would like TB! to poll them.

> Now you can say: Duh... stupid, create some filters and do it with one
> real and one pass-through account at home. Sure, that's possible, but
> inconvenient to have to check all external accounts manually (or use a
> different key) isn't it.

 Not really.  Just have each account set to check mail every few
 minutes.  If you have a permanent connection that works like a charm.
 If you don't have a permanent connection, it still works pretty well,
 except that TB doesn't have an offline mode.  That is a little
 annoying at times.



-- 
Thanks for writing,
 Januk Aggarwal
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Using The Bat! 1.42 Beta/20
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

How do crazy people go through the forest?
   They take the psycho path.

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Re: TB! WishList

[Cristian Secara]

On Mon, 1 May 2000 17:47:53 +0400, Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

>That's a question of (English) terminology, so I cannot comment it further.

The programmer of PMMail is an US citizen. I trust his English
terminology :)

>>And, again, how can I keep them synchronized (at least the cursor
>>movement) ?
>No way. And again: WHY do you want them to be synchronized??? 

There are few lists where I usually read 10-20 messages, then close the
message window and like to see where the cursor has stopped. Then I try
to estimate how many messages on a given topic are left. Depending on
that number, I eventually continue reading more messages (by opening
them again in a separate window) or jump over in the list.
I am speaking about heavily loaded mailing lists, where a long thread
like "Re: TB! WishList" happens at least once a day :)

>Finally, the sad fact that _you_ find no use for the separate message list 
>doesn't mean _others_ don't need it.

Of course not.
Let the user decide - make it selectable.

>What is your native language?

Romanian.
This can also be observed from my e-mail address ...

>This (in
>the case of TB's toolbar;-)) will mean "What's written in the next message 
>down the message list?" which exactly corresponds to what I get in TB.

Ok, but I (usually) think "What's written in the next message up the
current message ?" which does not exactly corresponds etc..

>Don't you think this is really a minor thing?

Probably, but a user interface is a sum of minor things, that makes my
life easier or harder.
Strange, I am somewhat an experienced FIDONET user and The Bat! follows
in certain sense the FIDO message style. However, I cannot follow the
logic here, in the context discussed up now.

>It's _definitely_ not a bug, and 
>therefore I'd suggest to stop bothering the fellow listmembers with all this stuff.

No, it's _definitely_ not a bug.
No, I *will* mention any problem I like to mention, as far as the topic
is The Bat! (or whatever specific topic for a given list it may be).

Best wishes,
Cristi

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Re: auto-format is too robotic isn't it?

[Allie Martin]

On Tue, 2 May 2000 03:23:31 +0400, Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

> Well, it's of course less then perfect, but it can be _easily_ fixed (at
> least, temporarily). The quick fix should be this one: "do not
> autoformat indented  lines plus never remove the spaces in the beginning
> of any line". That's all;-) If  there are enough voices for this change
> here, I'll bet Stef and Max will do you  the favour quickly;-))

Not quite. With your fix, wouldn't this happen?

I write:

The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.

The line above is not to be auto-formatted. I then decide to re-edit and
insert some extra words.

The quick brown fox, before making a great howling noise, jumps over the lazy 
dog.


But hey, that line above should have been re-wrapped. Alt+L is out of the
question for a fix because it would get rid of the indent. :-)

The second request is never to remove the spaces after a line or after a
sentence.

My suggestion would be, never to cancel hard returns. This should solve
everything.

I have to hit the return key twice to get away from a wrapping of this
sentence with the one above. The single return is cancelled.

If I type immediately above text, the return that separates them is
removed and the text below integrated again.

  Auto-wrap doesn't remove spaces at the beginning of lines because I just
started this paragraph with two spaces and the auto-wrap on. It's really
the single return that it tends to remove/cancel. Preventing this would
stop a lot of the headache.

The quick template editors have auto-formatting enabled if you have
auto-format enabled in the editor window. Quite troublesome if you ask me
since this is not the case across all templates and auto-format is really
unnecessary in template creation and is more likely to be a hindrance.

-- 
© 2000 Allie Martin   /*\   Using TB! v1.42 Beta/20 on Win2k Pro
---
Urghm! - "Reality is an obstacle to hallucination. "

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Re: auto-format is too robotic isn't it?

[Allie Martin]

On Mon, 1 May 2000 18:05:33 -0500, Randy Robinson wrote:


> Hello Lionel,

> Monday, May 01, 2000, 3:38:09 AM, you wrote:

LEM>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
LEM>> Hash: SHA1

LEM>> Hello rellieb-cal,

LEM>> Monday, May 01, 2000, 5:13:01 AM, you wrote:

rc>>> Do I have to place a blank line in between these paragraphs

LEM>> Yes, you do.

> You've found the one thing I hate about TheBat! It's the best
> program around, but I guess you can't have everything! It has a
> very strange idea of what autoformatting is. I wanted
> autoformatting really bad but when they came out with it, I sadly
> had to turn it off. Couldn't stand the way they implemented it.

> In your scenario, if you do manage to get several paragraphs
> typed and indented without a line in between (manually), then
> decide to change something way up there in the first paragraph,
> whammo! All of your paragraphs are now one.

> Where I ran into it most was in my signature, in lists (which are
> impossible) and such things. My sig looks silly with a line in
> between and so would a list. You can't even type ABOVE a line
> without it getting sucked into your paragraph!

Hmmm. Look at my signature. I always have auto-formatting on. :-)

-- 
© 2000 Allie Martin   /*\   Using TB! v1.42 Beta/20 on Win2k Pro
---
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Re: auto-format is too robotic isn't it?

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 1 May 00, at 18:05, Randy Robinson wrote
about "Re: auto-format is too robotic isn'":

> You've found the one thing I hate about TheBat! It's the best
> program around, but I guess you can't have everything! It has a
> very strange idea of what autoformatting is. I wanted
> autoformatting really bad but when they came out with it, I sadly
> had to turn it off. Couldn't stand the way they implemented it.

Well, it's of course less then perfect, but it can be _easily_ fixed (at least, 
temporarily). The quick fix should be this one: "do not autoformat indented 
lines plus never remove the spaces in the beginning of any line". That's all;-) If 
there are enough voices for this change here, I'll bet Stef and Max will do you 
the favour quickly;-))

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  On a clear disk you can seek forever

--- 
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Re: TB! WishList

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 2 May 00, at 7:34, Stephen wrote
about "Re: TB! WishList":

> > Flexibility? I thread some of my view folder message listing while I keep
> > the mail list unthreaded. If there was only one list then I couldn't do
> > this.
> 

> So I think the title bar should at least say something like -
> 
> View Folder Bat of ServNet   Sorted by Receive Time (Ascending)

Great idea! I'd add to this: "Show the Message List when using folder view in 
the separate window by default", since otherwise, as the practice shows, 
some users do not see this possibility at all;-)

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  Anything is good and useful if it's made of chocolate.

--- 
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Re: auto-format is too robotic isn't it?

[Randy Robinson]

Hello Lionel,

Monday, May 01, 2000, 3:38:09 AM, you wrote:

LEM> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
LEM> Hash: SHA1

LEM> Hello rellieb-cal,

LEM> Monday, May 01, 2000, 5:13:01 AM, you wrote:

rc>> Do I have to place a blank line in between these paragraphs

LEM> Yes, you do.

You've found the one thing I hate about TheBat! It's the best
program around, but I guess you can't have everything! It has a
very strange idea of what autoformatting is. I wanted
autoformatting really bad but when they came out with it, I sadly
had to turn it off. Couldn't stand the way they implemented it.

In your scenario, if you do manage to get several paragraphs
typed and indented without a line in between (manually), then
decide to change something way up there in the first paragraph,
whammo! All of your paragraphs are now one.

Where I ran into it most was in my signature, in lists (which are
impossible) and such things. My sig looks silly with a line in
between and so would a list. You can't even type ABOVE a line
without it getting sucked into your paragraph!

Best regards,

 Randy

 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: TB! WishList

[Stephen]

Dear Bat folk

>> Hm ... what's the use for keeping those message lists separately each
>> other ?

> Flexibility? I thread some of my view folder message listing while I keep
> the mail list unthreaded. If there was only one list then I couldn't do
> this.

IMO the Bat-cave of sorting and navigation would more quickly become
intelligible (and navigable) to the average user if able to see in the
folder title bar what sorting is in effect for a particular folder. As
it is, one has toggle/view the message list to recall the sort, and
AFAIK Bat doesn't even allow viewing of message list by a simple click
of an icon, or a straight-ahead keyboard shortcut, such asL

So I think the title bar should at least say something like -

View Folder Bat of ServNet   Sorted by Receive Time (Ascending)

-- 
Best regards,
 Stephen

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Re[2]: date-time formatting

[Pim Slim]

On 1-5-2000, 21:02:27, Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

AVK> Your greeting line (specifically the first word of it) sounds a bit... hmmm... 
AVK> eccentric for the Russian ear;-) Or was it intended to sound this way?

Hoi Alexander,

No intention was meant. 'Hoi' simply means 'hi' in Dutch. I hope I didn't
offend you :)

AVK> AFAIK, this have been requested in the past, but sofar nothing's changed. 
AVK> Maybe in version 2?;-)

We'll wait and see. Thanks for your comments.

--
doeidoei, (= bye bye in Amsterdamian Dutch)
   Pim Slim



  Pim Slim, [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Monday, May 01, 2000  21:22:03
  using The Bat! 1.42 Beta/20 under Windows 98 build 4.10.1998
  on a Pentium 200Mhz with 64 MB RAM



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Re: date-time formatting

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 1 May 00, at 15:38, Pim Slim wrote
about "date-time formatting":

> Hoi TBUDL-readers,

Your greeting line (specifically the first word of it) sounds a bit... hmmm... 
eccentric for the Russian ear;-) Or was it intended to sound this way?

>   In my message list the date-time format used in 'created' and 'received'
>   looks like this: 30 apr 2000, 18:19.
>   Is there a way of changing this in e.g. 30-4-00, 18:19 or are these
>   settings fixed?

Unfortunately, there's no way to change it. I'd sure wish there existed some 
way to make it shorter. In particular, the four-digit year format here could be 
sacrificed for something shorter. Moreover, I'd prefer the date-time to be in 
English rather then in Russian it is currently under the Russian version of 
Windows, since I'm much more accustomed to, say, "1 may 2000" then to 
"1 ÍÁÊ 2000". Besides, the latter variant is grammatically wrong (thanks to 
M$;-)), it should have been "1 ÍÁÑ 2000" anyway.

AFAIK, this have been requested in the past, but sofar nothing's changed. 
Maybe in version 2?;-)

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  Don't eat yellow snow!

--- 
PGP public keys on keyservers:
0xA2194BF9 (RSA);   0x214135A2 (DH/DSS)
fingerprints:
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A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
--- 

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Re: Drag and drop

[Tom Plunket]

t> test:  That doesn't always work.  Try doing that in TB's Template editors.

Wow, I can't believe that they just didn't put the same window type
into all the edit windows, so the editor quirks you have to learn work
everywhere.  Makes sense to me.  ahh well, perhaps next time?

-tom!

-- 
Hopin' this said *something* useful, [EMAIL PROTECTED] out.

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date-time formatting

[Pim Slim]

Hoi TBUDL-readers,

  In my message list the date-time format used in 'created' and 'received'
  looks like this: 30 apr 2000, 18:19.
  Is there a way of changing this in e.g. 30-4-00, 18:19 or are these
  settings fixed?

-- 
doeidoei,
  Pim Slim  




  Pim Slim, [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Monday, May 01, 2000  15:08:10
  using The Bat! 1.42 Beta/20 under Windows 98 build 4.10.1998
  on a Pentium 200Mhz with 64 MB RAM



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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
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Re: TB! WishList

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 1 May 00, at 16:22, Marck D. Pearlstone wrote
about "Re: TB! WishList":

> >>>   %TO=""%TO="%OFROMNAME on TBUDL<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"
> 
> >> Hahaaa! Thanks! It works! =B-D
> 
> > Gee, and a while ago when I wrote that folder templates did it you
> > replied that it didn't have anything to do with what you wanted.
> > *sigh*
> 
> To be fair, his answer formed a double negative:
> 
> >>  What part of that does not coincide with what he wants?
>^^^
> > Nothing. :-9
> 
> i.e. everything coincided.

To be frank, I believe _everybody_ here understood it right from the first 
glance, _except_ for the native English-speakers (Marck, Allie and Steve);-))) 


-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  Trouble strikes in series of threes, but when working around
  the house the next job after a series of three is not
  the fourth job -- it's the start of a brand new series of three.

--- 
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0xA2194BF9 (RSA);   0x214135A2 (DH/DSS)
fingerprints:
F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6  7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA)
A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
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Re: TB! WishList

[Allie Martin]

On Mon, 1 May 2000 08:21:37 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

> You are making an illogical jump in logic.  You're stating "Well, I
> want to read the next message in the thread so I press next, right?"
> No. Previous/next, just like up/down, are relative to your position in
> the message list and the sorting order given.  They have no bearing on
> time, name, subject, size, attachment or any other sort criteria you can
> place on the message list.  They only refer to the /current/ item's
> position in the list, the item above the current item and the item below
> the current item.

How could it be otherwise? :-)

-- 
© 2000 Allie Martin   /*\   Using TB! v1.42 Beta/20 on Win2k Pro
---
Urghm! - "My other computer is a HAL 9000. "

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Re: TB! WishList

[Allie Martin]

On Mon, 1 May 2000 18:42:14 +0400, Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

>> Take for example. I wish to display the TBUDL view folder list in
>> thread mode but not for other folders. I can't seem to do this. If I
>> set the view folder for TBUDL to threading, all other folders view
>> folder message lists do the same thing. Or am I missing something?

> Apparently, yes. I've just tested it (beta/20) with two folders: Inbox and Sent. 
> Opening the folder view for Inbox gives threaded view, whereas the same 
> operation for Sent gives the no-threaded view?!? 

Yes, the use default column settings option may be more influential than I
thought. Although I can use a separate view for the sent folder, this is
not the case with my other folders.

-- 
© 2000 Allie Martin   /*\   Using TB! v1.42 Beta/20 on Win2k Pro
---
Urghm! - "Some things have got to be believed to be seen. "

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Re: TB! WishList

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, May 01, 2000, 8:22:51 AM, Marck wrote:
> i.e. everything coincided.

GAAA.

*thud*


I hate English.   Pardon me as I go back to Perl where I can grok it.

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---+-

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Re: TB! WishList

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Steve,

On 01 May 2000 at 08:10:04 GMT -0700 (which was 16:10 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points on the subject
of "TB! WishList":

> Monday, May 01, 2000, 4:31:07 AM, Eberhard wrote:
 3. Extremely important: Mailing List Support

>>>   %TO=""%TO="%OFROMNAME on TBUDL<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"

>> Hahaaa! Thanks! It works! =B-D

> Gee, and a while ago when I wrote that folder templates did it you
> replied that it didn't have anything to do with what you wanted.
> *sigh*

To be fair, his answer formed a double negative:

>>  What part of that does not coincide with what he wants?
   ^^^
> Nothing. :-9

i.e. everything coincided.

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

*---
| Using The Bat! 1.42 Beta/20 S/N 14F4B4B2
| under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
*---

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Re: TB! WishList

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, May 01, 2000, 6:54:58 AM, Cristian wrote:
> Next is *not* intuitive.

To you.

> When I am saying "what's next ?" I mean what's new. What's the new
> message that follows in time, not down in the list, where the newer
> message is up.

In received descending that would be previous.  "Previous item in the
list".  What is wrong with that?  Is it not the previous item in the list?
Yes, it is.  Well, then why is a button marked "previous" not appropriate to
jumping to the /previous/ item in a list?

You are making an illogical jump in logic.  You're stating "Well, I want
to read the next message in the thread so I press next, right?"  No.
Previous/next, just like up/down, are relative to your position in the message
list and the sorting order given.  They have no bearing on time, name,
subject, size, attachment or any other sort criteria you can place on the
message list.  They only refer to the /current/ item's position in the list, the
item above the current item and the item below the current item.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: TB! WishList

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, May 01, 2000, 6:17:52 AM, Cristian wrote:
> I find no real use of this hidden message list, as it occupies a lot of
> space from the window. The window becomes like the preview pane - in
> fact this is the reason I opened the message separately, to have more
> space.

Reduce the size of the folder view to 4 lines.  No, there is no way to
sync it.  It just doesn't work in the PMMail way.  Trust me, been using it for
close to a year now and you know me and PMMail.  :P

> In the new context, "next" means next only in some circumstances,
> "below" (or "down") means below (or down) at anytime, no matter the
> sort order / ascending / descending / whatever.

No, next always means next.  The next item on the list.  The sort order of
that list defines what criterion next relates to.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: TB! WishList

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Cristian,

On 01 May 2000 at 16:54:58 GMT +0300 (which was 14:54 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points on the subject
of "TB! WishList":

>>"Normal" IMHO. Previous is up in the list. Next is down in the list.

> Next is *not* intuitive.

For you, maybe.

> When I am saying "what's next ?" I mean what's new.

Then,  with  respect, the problem lies in your expectations which seem
to arise from a mis-understanding of the English language and its' use
in this context.

> What's the new message that follows in time, not down in the list,
> where the newer message is up.

That  is  not the meaning of "Next" in this context. Next here is used
to  mean subsequent; the next in sequence. It does not mean "New". The
"next"  item  in a list is the one listed vertically below the current
item.

> This "next" would forces me to keep the list descending, and such
> thing is out of question.

Why  "out  of  the question"? It may not be what you are used to right
now,  but it is more logical and more "real-life". If you were writing
a  list  on a piece of paper, how would you keep inserting new entries
at the top?

Anyway,  since  you  are  listing from bottom to top instead of top to
bottom then you want to progress up the list - to the previous message
in the list rather than down the list to the next message. This is the
meaning  of  the English in use - a fact, not an opinion and certainly
by no means incorrect.

If  you  can't  understand the logic feel free to stay with PMMail. It
doesn't  bother  me. I'm only trying to point out that there are other
ways of looking at this stuff. We all know that TB has a whole raft of
usability  issues (just like *any* software package - you can't please
all  of the people all of the time) but that doesn't stop it being the
best, fastest, leanest and most full-featured MUA around right now.

Sometimes  you  have  to change the way you "used to do it" to get the
best out what is available. It doesn't always pay to be intransigent.

>>Then you aren't using the embedded message list in the folder view you
>>have  open  for  browsing. Opening a folder view does *not* affect the
>>position  of  the "cursor" in the main TB window.

> Yes, now I know that (see my previous message in response to
> Alexander).

I saw that.

> And this is *not* what I want :(

...  and  Alex has since responded that the list can be freely resized
and,  unless  you  are using a resolution of less than 1024*768, there
should be no real estate problem.

> ... and which folder elements becomes so heavily loaded, I have to
> switch it immediately back off.
> The only reason I open a message in a new window, is to view as much
> text as possible at a glance. I like more the PMMail (or Outlook
> Express) approach, in which the main window keeps track of the cursor
> over the message list, cursor that I can see it moving somewhere on
> other (not focussed) layer on the desktop.

And  many here seem to prefer the multiple view aspects of TB where we
can  open  multiple  views of single folders to see different messages
side-by-side  and  not  change  any  current  selection  in  the  main
three-pane master window.

It  strikes  me  that you are so used to the lack of freedom elsewhere
that you are asking how to remove the flexibility from TB.

Oh well. You win some, you lose some .

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

*---
| Using The Bat! 1.42 Beta/20 S/N 14F4B4B2
| under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
*---

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Re: TB! WishList

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, May 01, 2000, 4:31:07 AM, Eberhard wrote:
>>> 3. Extremely important: Mailing List Support

>>   %TO=""%TO="%OFROMNAME on TBUDL<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"

> Hahaaa! Thanks! It works! =B-D

Gee, and a while ago when I wrote that folder templates did it you replied
that it didn't have anything to do with what you wanted.  *sigh*

-- 
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 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: TB! WishList

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, May 01, 2000, 4:04:36 AM, Cristian wrote:
> Yes, but in the *received* list, not in my own displayed list. And it
> follows a reverse logic ("next" brings the previous in time message).

No, it /is/ in the list given.  *sigh*

In the folder view (It is not a message view) turn on message list (view /
message list).  You will now see what the folder view is using for its sort
order.  Press previous/next and you'll see "previous" goes up the list and
"next" goes down the list in accordance with the sort order set *for the
folder view*.  The folder view *does not* inherit the sort order of the list
displayed in TB!.  So, if I have descending received set in the main window
and descending from set in the folder view the previous/next buttons in the
folder view WILL NOT FOLLOW THE LIST AS PRESENTED IN THE MAIN WINDOW.

That is the point we're trying to get across to you.  It /is/ following a
sort order and you /can/ set that sort order!

> It's the only way now, as the toolbar buttons are named "previous" and
> "next".
> If they were named "up" and "down", that would be more flexible.

Why?  Semantics, nothing more.  Who cares if they are called "MmmmKay" and
"Poo"?  They work as described.

Fine, here, just for you:

"Next" is defined as the next item in the list from top to bottom in the
current sorting order.

"Previous" is defined as the previous item in the list from top to bottom
in the current sorting order.

Happy?

> I always keep the most recent messages at the top of the list (sorted
> by "created" column). The "next" / "previous" button gives a mess, if
> the sender has composed a message at one time and sent the message at a
> later time (like I do sometimes).

This also provides a mess when the sender's clock is off compared to the
receivers.  That is a problem in your logic.  Set it to received, not created,
and it works much better.  Don't blame the product for your false logic.

> PMMail uses "up" and "down" toolbar buttons, relative to
> the *user* sorted list.

So does The Bat!  Read what I wrote, do it, and you'll see.  It took me a
week to figure it out when I switched from PMMail because I didn't know that
the /folder view/, not message view, did not inherit the sort order from the
main window.  Stop thinking in the PMMail paradigm and reading from the main
window for a second.

> I also noticed one annoying thing about The Bat!: the blue cursor bar
> over the message list remains still as I go further and read more
> messages. After reading, say, 20 messages in the list, I can no more
> say where I am with the reading by taking a short look at the message
> list.

*sigh*  That is because you're /not/ reading from that list.

> Sorry, waiting for another release ...

Sorry, you need to read what we're telling you and trust that we know what
we're talking about.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: TB! WishList

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, May 01, 2000, 3:05:19 AM, Cristian wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:26:38 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

>>Oddly enough it works exactly as you described for me.

> How is that ?

You did read the rest of the message, right?

>> ... What, you weren't aware that the message window doesn't inheirit the
>>parent window's sorting order?  Turn on the message display in the /FOLDER/
>>read window and you'll see it does not.  Now click on the sort order you do
>>want and it works any way you describe.

> For example, I read my own message, sent in The Bat! mailing list
> (opened in its own window).

> In order to view your replay, I have to press the "previous" toolbar
> button.

> What kind of logic is that ?

Is not my message /previous/ to yours in some sort orders and not others.
Trust me, it /is/ logical if you /READ/ the above.

-- 
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 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: TB! WishList

[Steve Lamb]

Sunday, April 30, 2000, 10:26:15 PM, Eberhard wrote:
> a) Is it possible to change the order of folders in any account?

Yes. RTFM.

> Oh, a general note before wrapping this one. I am positively surprised
> by the quality of this list. I had expected some RTFM mails but none
> so far. Thanks for that.

You're welcome, you got it.

-- 
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Re: TB! WishList

[Steve Lamb]

Sunday, April 30, 2000, 9:31:55 AM, Eberhard wrote:
>>> He meant that if you are in a miling list's folder, and hit CTRL+N,
>>> the new message should be automagically addressed to the list.

>> I am aware of that.  You define a template for that folder to add the
>> mailing list address.  you hit CNTL-N and it is there.  What part of that does
>> not coincide with what he wants?

> Nothing. :-9

Everything.

-- 
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Re: TB! WishList

[Steve Lamb]

Sunday, April 30, 2000, 8:39:53 AM, Eberhard wrote:
> Now you can say: Duh... stupid, create some filters and do it with one
> real and one pass-through account at home. Sure, that's possible, but
> inconvenient to have to check all external accounts manually (or use a
> different key) isn't it.

A different key?  HUH?  UHM, TB! allows you to check multiple accounts.
It has automatic checking on those accounts.  You can filter from one account
to another.  There are also products out there that are better suited to what
you seem to want.  Use them.

-- 
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Re: TB! WishList

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 1 May 00, at 9:24, Allie Martin wrote
about "Re: TB! WishList":

> > Finally, the sad fact that _you_ find no use for the separate message list 
> > doesn't mean _others_ don't need it. I find it pretty cool to be able to 
>efficiently 
> > work with one and the same folder sorted differently.
> 
> This isn't implemented too well. I can't sort the message list for the
> view folder window for separate folders. The sort order is the same used
> for all folders.
> 
> Take for example. I wish to display the TBUDL view folder list in thread
> mode but not for other folders. I can't seem to do this. If I set the view
> folder for TBUDL to threading, all other folders view folder message lists
> do the same thing. Or am I missing something?

Apparently, yes. I've just tested it (beta/20) with two folders: Inbox and Sent. 
Opening the folder view for Inbox gives threaded view, whereas the same 
operation for Sent gives the no-threaded view?!? 

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  When you are sure you're right, you have a moral duty to
  impose your will upon anyone who disagrees with you.

--- 
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Re: TB! WishList

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 1 May 00, at 9:18, Allie Martin wrote
about "Re: TB! WishList":

> > Nah, I don't like this idea. Suppose I'm working with the separate folder view 
> > (separate window), and now I want to look at yet another message _in the 
> > same_ folder. Now I just go to the three-pane view, open the message I was 
> > after and work with it, the separate window staying where it was left. How will I 
> > be supposed to achieve the same if the cursor movements were 
> > synchronized? And yet another thing. Now you can open _more_then_one_ 
> > separate view window for the same folder. Do you really suggest that the 
> > cursor movement in all these is synchronized? Then what's the hell's sense of 
> > having the ability to open, say, 10 instances of the same folder in separate 
> > windows??? If you synchronize them all, it will be absolutely unusable IMHO.
> 
> Valid points indeed. :-)  It's good to know the methods behind the
> "apparent"  madness. 

Yeah, this "apparent madness" would become even less "apparent"  if 
one could drag'n'drop messages _between_ the different windows of TB. 
Usually this stuff is implemented by allowing to "drop" the dragged object to 
the button of the corresponding window in the taskbar. I'd say this method is 
much faster and more visually intuitive then the currently implemented (via the 
menus or the context menu). The latter makes me sick;-) 

Besides, I'd sure wish to be able to attach the messages like the normal files, 
and this could be implemented the same way: dragging the message from 
whatever different place onto the message composer button on the task bar. 
Finally, this could be made to support the wish I've heard on TBUDL lately: to 
include the text of any message into the text of the currently-composed one 
using drag'n'drop.

This kind of functionality can be considered as my own "favourite peeve";-))

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  The only thing that hurts more than paying income tax
  is not having to pay income tax.

--- 
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Re: TB! WishList

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 1 May 00, at 16:54, Cristian Secara wrote
about "Re: TB! WishList":

> Next is *not* intuitive.
> When I am saying "what's next ?" I mean what's new. 

What is your native language? I'm just curious, since when _I_ say "what's 
next?" (in Russian: þÔÏ ÄÁÌØÛÅ?), _I_ usually mean "And what will I get from 
this stuff? What the results will be?". That kind of meaning. Another meaning 
(but then the grammar will change a bit) is "What follows this stuff?". This (in 
the case of TB's toolbar;-)) will mean "What's written in the next message 
down the message list?" which exactly corresponds to what I get in TB.

> This "next" would forces me to keep the list descending, and such thing
> is out of question.

Don't you think this is really a minor thing? It's _definitely_ not a bug, and 
therefore I'd suggest to stop bothering the fellow listmembers with all this stuff.

> Yes, now I know that (see my previous message in response to
> Alexander).
> And this is *not* what I want :(

What _exactly_ do you want then?

> ... and which folder elements becomes so heavily loaded, I have to
> switch it immediately back off.
> The only reason I open a message in a new window, is to view as much
> text as possible at a glance. I like more the PMMail (or Outlook
> Express) approach, in which the main window keeps track of the cursor
> over the message list, cursor that I can see it moving somewhere on
> other (not focussed) layer on the desktop.

See my two other messages to the list. I gave the reasoning which makes me 
think that the current behaviour is _much_ better then the way to work 
suggested by you and Allie Martin.

Further, I'm accustomed to this type of behaviour with Pegasus Mail and must 
say it's really time saving taking into account the way I work with my mail. 

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  When you are sure you're right, you have a moral duty to
  impose your will upon anyone who disagrees with you.

--- 
PGP public keys on keyservers:
0xA2194BF9 (RSA);   0x214135A2 (DH/DSS)
fingerprints:
F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6  7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA)
A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
--- 

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Re: TB! WishList

[Allie Martin]

On Mon, 1 May 2000 17:47:53 +0400, Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

8<

> Finally, the sad fact that _you_ find no use for the separate message list 
> doesn't mean _others_ don't need it. I find it pretty cool to be able to efficiently 
> work with one and the same folder sorted differently.

This isn't implemented too well. I can't sort the message list for the
view folder window for separate folders. The sort order is the same used
for all folders.

Take for example. I wish to display the TBUDL view folder list in thread
mode but not for other folders. I can't seem to do this. If I set the view
folder for TBUDL to threading, all other folders view folder message lists
do the same thing. Or am I missing something?

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Re: TB! WishList

[Allie Martin]

On Mon, 1 May 2000 17:59:21 +0400, Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:


>> This is a pet peeve of mine. The cursor movement should be synchronised
>> and would make you a lot more comfortable, not having to use two
>> message lists.

> Nah, I don't like this idea. Suppose I'm working with the separate folder view 
> (separate window), and now I want to look at yet another message _in the 
> same_ folder. Now I just go to the three-pane view, open the message I was 
> after and work with it, the separate window staying where it was left. How will I 
> be supposed to achieve the same if the cursor movements were 
> synchronized? And yet another thing. Now you can open _more_then_one_ 
> separate view window for the same folder. Do you really suggest that the 
> cursor movement in all these is synchronized? Then what's the hell's sense of 
> having the ability to open, say, 10 instances of the same folder in separate 
> windows??? If you synchronize them all, it will be absolutely unusable IMHO.

Valid points indeed. :-)  It's good to know the methods behind the
"apparent"  madness. 

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Re: TB! WishList

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 1 May 00, at 8:40, Allie Martin wrote
about "Re: TB! WishList":

> >  And, again, how can I keep them synchronized (at least the
> > cursor movement) ?
> 
> This is a pet peeve of mine. The cursor movement should be synchronised
> and would make you a lot more comfortable, not having to use two message
> lists.

Nah, I don't like this idea. Suppose I'm working with the separate folder view 
(separate window), and now I want to look at yet another message _in the 
same_ folder. Now I just go to the three-pane view, open the message I was 
after and work with it, the separate window staying where it was left. How will I 
be supposed to achieve the same if the cursor movements were 
synchronized? And yet another thing. Now you can open _more_then_one_ 
separate view window for the same folder. Do you really suggest that the 
cursor movement in all these is synchronized? Then what's the hell's sense of 
having the ability to open, say, 10 instances of the same folder in separate 
windows??? If you synchronize them all, it will be absolutely unusable IMHO.


-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
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Re: TB! WishList

[Cristian Secara]

On Mon, 1 May 2000 13:20:47 +0100, Marck D. Pearlstone wrote:

>"Normal"  IMHO.  Previous is up in the list. Next is down in the list.

Next is *not* intuitive.
When I am saying "what's next ?" I mean what's new. What's the new
message that follows in time, not down in the list, where the newer
message is up.

This "next" would forces me to keep the list descending, and such thing
is out of question.

>Then you aren't using the embedded message list in the folder view you
>have  open  for  browsing. Opening a folder view does *not* affect the
>position  of  the "cursor" in the main TB window.

Yes, now I know that (see my previous message in response to
Alexander).
And this is *not* what I want :(

>Each folder view has
>its' own message list and "cursor" which can be enable from the folder
>window "View" menu.

... and which folder elements becomes so heavily loaded, I have to
switch it immediately back off.
The only reason I open a message in a new window, is to view as much
text as possible at a glance. I like more the PMMail (or Outlook
Express) approach, in which the main window keeps track of the cursor
over the message list, cursor that I can see it moving somewhere on
other (not focussed) layer on the desktop.

Best wishes,
Cristi

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Re: TB! WishList

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 1 May 00, at 16:17, Cristian Secara wrote
about "Re: TB! WishList":

> >Cristian, I think you miss the following point: when you browse the messages 
> >in a _separate_ window, there is a _hidden_ (by default) message list there 
> >(you need to tick View-->Message List in the menus of this window to see it) 
> >which has it's _own_ sorting order and the settings alike, which is thus 
> >different from the sorting order used in the default three-pane view (main 
> >window of the program).
> 
> Yes, that's true. Hm, strange approach ... it works, but ... is there any way
> for synchronizing the two message lists ? At least the movement of the blue
> cursor bar ? I find no real use of this hidden message list, as it occupies a
> lot of space from the window. The window becomes like the preview pane - in
> fact this is the reason I opened the message separately, to have more space. 

I don't see your point. What resolution are you working at? It's a common 
point that TB is kinda tricky to use on 640x480 screens, and even 800x600 
isn't high enough usually;-( But at higher resolutions one has quite enough 
space to have (at least, tiny) message list in the separate folder-view window. 
Do you realize that the message list can be resized? You can make it much 
smaller (I usually have it set to 5 or 6 messages fit in;-))

As for the synchronization you're speaking about, I see no sense in it, since 
the separate folder window is usually (almost) maximized here, and I don't see 
the main window of the program anyway unless I close the separate one;-)

Finally, the sad fact that _you_ find no use for the separate message list 
doesn't mean _others_ don't need it. I find it pretty cool to be able to efficiently 
work with one and the same folder sorted differently.

> Yes, I understand now. But I go back and say that the naming of that toolbar
> button is unhappy chosen. In the new context, "next" means next only in some
> circumstances, "below" (or "down") means below (or down) at anytime, no
> matter the sort order / ascending / descending / whatever. 

That's a question of (English) terminology, so I cannot comment it further. All I 
can say is that for _me_ (and I'm a Russian-speaker) it seems to be pretty 
logical in it's current state. It might seem highly illogical for the people that 
write from the bottom up, but for the people writing from the top down and 
from the left to right "Next" is usually equivalent to "One line down" and 
"Previous" -- to "One line up";-). Taken in it's context, a "message" is 
equivalent to "a line" in the message list (_any_ message list), and hence "next 
message" is the same thing as "next line of the message list".

> Hm ... what's the use for keeping those message lists separately each
> other ?

A lot of them;-) In the default three-pane view I usually have the messages 
unthreaded and sorted by date (newer ones to the top of the folder), with only 
5 columns visible: From, Subject, Date sent, Attachments, Read (this is to 
save the screen real estate for the "Folders" pane, of course). At the same 
time, in the "separate" folder windows I usually thread by references and have 
much more columns visible (with much less space dedicated to Subject and 
>From columns). Since the two message lists are independent from each other, 
I get all the benefits from the both approachs.

> And, again, how can I keep them synchronized (at least the cursor
> movement) ?

No way. And again: WHY do you want them to be synchronized??? 

-- 
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(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
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  Double your drive space! Delete Windows!

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Re: TB! WishList

[Jast]

Morning Eberhard,

> I open the New mail and type: Smith - and hit TAB. Nothing happens.
> Typing Joe leads to the same result.

 this form of auto-completion only works with nicks recorded in address
 book.

 the other form is typing a phrase, and if it is in the list of recently
 used addresses, it will be completed from there if you wait for a short
 moment.

 the next is entering full names that will be completed from the address
 book.

 I did a more detailed explanation on auto-completion quite some time ago,
 but you'd have to search the archives for it as I lost it :-(

> Hai! Sou desu yo! :-D

 Japanese?

> I'm sorry for repeating what others have already said. I also checked the
> FAQ section and previous posts but it was hard to make real use of them
> since one has to gather the needed info bit by bit from a large amount of
> posts. Finally I think requests such as mine are just what this ml is
> for.

 Exactly!
 


-- 
.. Jast ... mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
:  using TB 1.42 Beta/20 
:  with AMD K6-2, 64MB RAM
:. on Windows 98 4.10  A 



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Re: TB! WishList

[Jast]

Morning Eberhard,

> a) Is it possible to change the order of folders in any account?

 Yes. Either hold alt and drag them or press the folder view header and it
 gets sorted alphabetically.

> b) I have tried the "thread by reference" option. It doesn't really
> work that well, does it.

 IMHO, it works very well for the Bat lists.

> I would prefer it very much to simply sort the files according to
> (optional field) and then according to (another optional field). This
> would save me the hastle of clicking through all the read mails in the
> thread before getting the new one.

 I think what you might want is thread by subject and sort by time. Not so
 nicely usable IMO. Other possibility would be to click first the time
 message list header and then the subject to sort by that. Looks to be okay
 from the sorting.
 

-- 
.. Jast ... mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
:  using TB 1.42 Beta/20 
:  with AMD K6-2, 64MB RAM
:. on Windows 98 4.10  A 



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Re: TB! WishList

[Allie Martin]

On Mon, 01 May 2000 16:17:52 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:

8<

> Hm ... what's the use for keeping those message lists separately each
> other ?

Flexibility? I thread some of my view folder message listing while I keep
the mail list unthreaded. If there was only one list then I couldn't do
this.

>  And, again, how can I keep them synchronized (at least the
> cursor movement) ?

This is a pet peeve of mine. The cursor movement should be synchronised
and would make you a lot more comfortable, not having to use two message
lists.

-- 
© 2000 Allie Martin   /*\   Using TB! v1.42 Beta/20 on Win2k Pro
---
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Re: TB! WishList

[Allie Martin]

On Mon, 1 May 2000 13:32:00 +0100, Marck D. Pearlstone wrote:


>> I also noticed one annoying thing about The Bat!: the blue cursor
>> bar over the message list remains still as I go further and read
>> more messages. After reading, say, 20 messages in the list, I can no
>> more say where I am with the reading by taking a short look at the
>> message list.

> Then you aren't using the embedded message list in the folder view you
> have  open  for  browsing. Opening a folder view does *not* affect the
> position  of  the "cursor" in the main TB window. Each folder view has
> its' own message list and "cursor" which can be enable from the folder
> window "View" menu.

This may very well be the problem. He's trying to reconcile the viewfolder
display with the main TB! windows message list, not realising the the view
folder window has it's own message list. View | message list.

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---
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Re: TB! WishList

[Allie Martin]

On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 18:31:55 +0200, Eberhard Hafermalz wrote:

>>> He meant that if you are in a miling list's folder, and hit CTRL+N,
>>> the new message should be automagically addressed to the list.

>> I am aware of that.  You define a template for that folder to add the
>> mailing list address.  you hit CNTL-N and it is there.  What part of that does
>> not coincide with what he wants?

> Nothing. :-9

Hmmm. Ok. Place this macro in the new message template for your TBUDL
messages folder.

%TO=""%TO="TB!UDL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"

Now select the folder and hit CTRL+N. Isn't that what you want? This is
what Steve was referring to.

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---
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Re: TB! WishList

[Allie Martin]

On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:39:53 +0200, Eberhard Hafermalz wrote:


> Hypocrisy is the vaseline of social intercourse.

Brilliant.

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---
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Re: TB! WishList

[Cristian Secara]

On Mon, 1 May 2000 15:58:33 +0400, Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

>Cristian, I think you miss the following point: when you browse the messages 
>in a _separate_ window, there is a _hidden_ (by default) message list there 
>(you need to tick View-->Message List in the menus of this window to see it) 
>which has it's _own_ sorting order and the settings alike, which is thus 
>different from the sorting order used in the default three-pane view (main 
>window of the program).

:/

Yes, that's true.
Hm, strange approach ... it works, but ... is there any way for
synchronizing the two message lists ? At least the movement of the blue
cursor bar ?
I find no real use of this hidden message list, as it occupies a lot of
space from the window. The window becomes like the preview pane - in
fact this is the reason I opened the message separately, to have more
space.

>If you switch the message list I'm speaking about ON, you'll see quite clearly 
>that Next button opens the next message in the _current_ message list, that is, 
>it opens the message right _below_ the current one in the list. The Previous 
>button works vice versa.

Yes, I understand now.
But I go back and say that the naming of that toolbar button is unhappy
chosen.
In the new context, "next" means next only in some circumstances,
"below" (or "down") means below (or down) at anytime, no matter the
sort order / ascending / descending / whatever.

>This is quite logical IMHO, but a bit confusing when one has the Message List 
>of the separate window closed (which's exactly so by default).

Hm ... what's the use for keeping those message lists separately each
other ?
And, again, how can I keep them synchronized (at least the cursor
movement) ?

Best wishes,
Cristi

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Re: TB! WishList

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 1 May 00, at 13:31, Eberhard Hafermalz wrote
about "Re[2]: TB! WishList":

> > Enable Auto-Format. When allied with Auto-Wrap, that's what it does.
> 
> Nope, it doesn't. At least not the way it should. Try it. Type a line
> with less chars than the wrap limit. Press RETURN. Type something. Be
> annoyed. :-)

Press RETURN _twice_ and don't be annoyed;-)

> Additional remark after having read the "too robotic" thread: This
> behavior is hardly what it should be like. It is neither proper
> auto-wrap nor proper auto-format. :-(

And what? The Bat's editor is a bit spartan indeed, but the editor is by no 
means the greatest priority for a MUA...

> > Use  threading  by  reference  with  sort  by  time. That does the job
> > perfectly.
> 
> Ah, thanks!! Another problem solved ... well, perhaps. If you take a look at the
> attached screen grab - shouldn't the Re2 be connected with the Re?

See above. If the message doesn't have properly set referencing header 
fields, TB can do very little about it. Try threading by subject if you experience 
these problems all the time.

> > I don't like this one. It reeks of mangling, is fraught with potential
> > hazards  is  is  far  more  esoteric than is good for it as a concept.
> > Whenever  I  have had to do anything like this (and that's *extremely*
> > rare  -  4  times maybe in 5 years?) I have done the merge by hand and
> > not begrudged it.
> 
> Hmm. I have had a couple more occasions... but that's why I think
> optional is a good solution.
> BTW, right now here is such an occasion: Instead of replying to the
> arguments of each single person I would love to select all your
> replies, hit REPLY and go along editing and replying myself. :-)

Will be possible when ver.2 comes out (late May this year was the last 
guesstimate for the first betas I've heard).

> Which brings up an idea... is there something like Rexx on this
> platform? 

There exists Perl for win32. Take a look at www.perl.com. IMHO, Perl is more 
powerful then Rexx used to be (yeah, I've been using Rexx quite extensively in 
my own OS/2 days;-)). 

> So that I can write my own little scripts, put them in a menu item of any
> program supporting this, and make the program do what my script says? Such a
> "merge" script should be done in no time flat, provided TB! supports the
> "merge" command. 

TB ver. 2 is said to support scripting like this. Right now the only possibility of 
extending TB a bit is using GNU regexps which TB already supports. If you're 
unfamiliar with these possibilities, please take a look at the online help (English 
version of it).


-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  Never hit a man with glasses.  Use your fist!

--- 
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Re: TB! WishList

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 1 May 00, at 7:26, Eberhard Hafermalz wrote
about "Re[2]: TB! WishList":

> a) Is it possible to change the order of folders in any account?

Alt-dragging. BTW, _this_ is covered in the online help;-)

> b) I have tried the "thread by reference" option. It doesn't really
> work that well, does it. I would prefer it very much to simply sort
> the files according to (optional field) and then according to (another
> optional field). This would save me the hastle of clicking through all
> the read mails in the thread before getting the new one. Yes, I am
> aware that for this there probably is a shortcut as well.

Threading "by reference" is pretty much a feature that should work _exactly_ 
as it does. It groups messages with respect to the the following header-fields:

Message-ID:
In-Reply-To:
References:

See RFCs for more on this subject. 

If you have many messages that don't have these header fields set properly, 
you should consider using threading "by subject", probably...

> 1) I get a mail from pal Joe Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.

;-))) Joe Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> would be even better an example;-
)  


-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
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  Live within your income, even if you have to borrow to do so.

--- 
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Re: TB! WishList

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 1 May 00, at 6:43, Eberhard Hafermalz wrote
about "Re[2]: TB! WishList":

> > It's already there and is called "MIME forwarding". Have a look at Account 
> > options--> Templates--> Forwarding.
> 
> Indeed - never would have suspected it there in the first place but it
> is there. Doesn't really do what I meant but is a work-around.

It's a _poor_ workaround;-( Instead, this _ought_ to be a very powerful 
feature, IMHO. It's been proposed more then once that this functionality is 
extended quite a bit. If it only were an extra menus option "Forward using 
MIME"... And then, I'd love to be able to attach messages just like normal files, 
drag'n'dropping them onto the message editor or any other way. This way it 
would become possible to MIME-forward messages from _different_ folders, 
which's the thing I'm in habit of extensively using...

P.S. Anybody noticed that TB 1.42 betas is no longer capable of producing 
MIME digests?;-(

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
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  I'm easy to please as long as I get my way.

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Re: TB! WishList

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Eberhard,

On 01 May 2000 at 13:31:07 GMT +0200 (which was 12:31 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points on the subject
of "TB! WishList":

> I have sent this mail yesterday but it has been refused bcs I attached
> a small JPG to it showing the problems of sorting with Vew by
> reference. Sorry for the delay. Thus I omit the pic, of course.

No problem.

>>> 1-1. Autowrap
>>> Doesn't work if the line is changed.
>>> Example: I put wrap at 77 characters. I write my 78th char and it
>>> wraps. I decide to write more in the line above and thus I push the
>>> end of the line way beyond the 78th char. No wrapping occurs. This
>>> would be no problem if all I would have to do to re-wrap is go to the
>>> beginning of the next line below and press BACKSPACE.

>> Enable Auto-Format. When allied with Auto-Wrap, that's what it does.

> Nope, it doesn't. At least not the way it should. Try it. Type a line
> with less chars than the wrap limit. Press RETURN. Type something. Be
> annoyed. :-)

I shan't be :-). I have used this feature since its' introduction many
moons  ago and am so aware of its' methodology that it never annoys or
surprises  me. In plain text there is no such concept as a "paragraph"
unless   it  appears  after  a  blank  line.  Your  example  is  of  a
continuation  to  the  first  line.  by merely pressing return *twice*
instead of once, TB behaves impeccably IMHO.

> Additional remark after having read the "too robotic" thread: This
> behavior is hardly what it should be like. It is neither proper
> auto-wrap nor proper auto-format. :-(

I disagree. It is both - for the specific medium of *plain-text*. That
is  the  medium  in  which  we  all  write  e-mail. Perhaps there is a
shortcoming  in  terms  of  how  a new paragraph can start (first line
indenting), but for a plain text e-mail editor, it's the best built in
one I've used (and I've tried a lot).

It  doesn't  suit  everyone,  I  admit,  but  the hope is that v2 will
counter this by providing support for 3rd party external editors.

> The  JPG  showed  a  Re:  blah0, than a Re: blah1, and then a Re[2]:
> blah0. I wonder if this supposed to be normal?

I'm not certain I follow the description of the problem, but threading
by reference ties together threads regardless of subject line by using
the RFC822 In-Reply-To and References headers. Order is preserved when
all clients in the reply chain follow the correct convention.

>>> 7. Forward/Reply of multiple msg

> BTW,  right now here is such an occasion: Instead of replying to the
> arguments  of  each  single  person  I would love to select all your
> replies, hit REPLY and go along editing and replying myself. :-)

I can picture it. Sounds complex to me, but probably worth a wish list
entry.

[snip]

> ...  is  there  something  like Rexx on this platform? So that I can
> write  my own little scripts, put them in a menu item of any program
> supporting this, and make the program do what my script says? Such a
> "merge" script should be done in no time flat, provided TB! supports
> the "merge" command.

Scripting is vaunted as a major v2 feature. Watch this space :-).

>>> 15. Folders
>>> On opening a folder, the cursor bar should immediately jump to the
>>> next new/unread mail.

> Okay, here most of you seem to be of the same opposed opinion. Maybe
> an option for this behavior could be the solution?

Another  thing a vociferous bunch of us oppose is the ad-hoc adding of
gratuitous options to cluttered configuration screens ;-). Still, this
is one suggestion that has started coming up more often.

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

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Re: TB! WishList

[Roel]

Hi Eberhard

On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:39:53 +0200GMT
   (which was 30/04/00, 17:39 +0100GMT for me),

you wrote:

EH> What I mean is: use one account at home, on this here PC. Download all
EH> mail from different remote servers into this one account.

This will be implemented in Version 2... :-)

-- 
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Re[2]: TB! WishList

[Eberhard Hafermalz]

Hello Steve,

Sunday, April 30, 2000, 5:00:00 PM, you wrote:

>> He meant that if you are in a miling list's folder, and hit CTRL+N,
>> the new message should be automagically addressed to the list.

> I am aware of that.  You define a template for that folder to add the
> mailing list address.  you hit CNTL-N and it is there.  What part of that does
> not coincide with what he wants?

Nothing. :-9
-- 
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 Eberhard Hafermalz

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Re[2]: TB! WishList

[Eberhard Hafermalz]

Hello Jast,

Sunday, April 30, 2000, 3:59:43 PM, you wrote:

>> (as an example). This should possibly be done with any field.
>> It should stop the problem of reading the reply in a thread before the
>> question (and thus save the girls on this list a few early wrinkles).

>  Have you tried threading by references? It works very well on lists where
>  most poeple's mailers support the reference header. And helps when you
>  want to read the messages threaded.

Sorry if I'm too thick here but what is this? Where can I activate it?
You are not referring to "clicking the Listview headline", are you?

>> The follow up of subject sorting doesn't seem to work 100%. It
>> frequently happens that the first mail _ex_cluding the "Re:" prefix is
>> not the first in the sorted order. The sort routine should disregard
>> any RE:, AW: or whatever ppl use prefix.

>  Re:'s *are* disregarded in sorting, as are Re[x]: The stupid MS-localized
>  versions of stupid MS-mailers aren't,. however. :)

Hmm. I cannot confirm this generally but it works now with this
thread. I will keep an eye on it.

>  I agree the current behaviour is a little annoying. But Ctrl+´ (German kb's)
>  for next unread is good enough for now. v2 will allow customizable kb
>  shortcuts.

Even greater!

>> 9. Auto-complete
>> I have found it very hard to adjust to the Auto-Complete function of
>> the To: and CC: fields in the msg editor.
>> a) It should work without regard to captial letters.

>  It does. It just doesn't change the case you type it in.

Then it does it but not in 100% order. Say I have an address book
entry First: Joe, Last: Smith, Displayed: Joe Smith, Nick: blank.
Or: First: Joe, Last: blank, Displayed: Smith, Nick: blank.

I open the New mail and type: Smith - and hit TAB. Nothing happens.
Typing Joe leads to the same result.

BTW, this is even more the case when using more than one To:
addressees.
After the first it simply stops to complete (if it does in the first
place).

As for the capital letters, I might be wrong bcs I might have confused
the not-at-all completion with what I thought was non-completion based
on case sensitive spelling. Sorry.

>> b) It should include all fields in the address book entry that are
>> related to the name of the person. Ie: First, Middle, Last, Nick,
>> Displayed.

>  Are you familiar with the Ctrl+Plus to complete from Address book?
>  Or the fact that entering a nick (handle) and then changing to the next
>  field expands to the full name?

The nick yes. The CTRL-PLUS cut I didn't know. It seems to do the
trick when typing the displayed name, thank you.

>> 10. Cursor in MsgEditor
>> It would be nice if the cursor would automatically jump from the
>> Subject: field to the msg body when I press RETURN instead of
>> hilighting the Subject (what's the purpose of that?).

>  It might be not that useful, but just use Tab instead for now..

Right.

>> One final remark: It would be nice if the community would be able to
>> take a glance at the authors' ToDo list.

>  Would be nice as people could avoid posting similar requests over and
>  over.
 
Hai! Sou desu yo! :-D I'm sorry for repeating what others have already
said. I also checked the FAQ section and previous posts but it was
hard to make real use of them since one has to gather the needed info
bit by bit from a large amount of posts. Finally I think requests such
as mine are just what this ml is for.
-- 
Best regards,
 Eberhard Hafermalz

You can't have everything. Where would you put it?
-- Steven Wright


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Re[2]: TB! WishList

[Eberhard Hafermalz]

Hello tracer,

Sunday, April 30, 2000, 3:04:54 PM, you wrote:

>>> 14. Account polling
>>> It would be nice to be able to poll any and all accounts into one in
>>> TB! instead of creating more than one at home.

>> HUH?

> I have this suspicion that this one surprised you Steve...
> And not sure myself what is meant its hopefully not runing a different
> installed Bat per account (g)
 
Now I say HUH? ;-D

What I mean is: use one account at home, on this here PC. Download all
mail from different remote servers into this one account.

Example: Say I use two accounts, one for MLs, one for private use (I
don't but take the principle). I don't wanna keep them separate at
home though - with TB! I have to either create two accounts at home,
or make one of my external servers forward the stuff to the other.
This creates bandwidth abuse. So I would like TB! to poll them.

Now you can say: Duh... stupid, create some filters and do it with one
real and one pass-through account at home. Sure, that's possible, but
inconvenient to have to check all external accounts manually (or use a
different key) isn't it.
-- 
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 Eberhard Hafermalz

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Re: TB! WishList

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Cristian,

On 01 May 2000 at 14:04:36 GMT +0300 (which was 12:04 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points on the subject
of "TB! WishList":

> If they were named "up" and "down", that would be more flexible.

But  they  are. "Previous" is a synonym for "Up" in this context as is
"Next"  for  "Down". In English, in terms of position in a list, these
verbs work *exactly* as they should.

> I usually use PMMail as the main mailer. It has few problems (most
> noticeable regional character set problems) and am looking for a (good)
> replacement. PMMail uses "up" and "down" toolbar buttons, relative to
> the *user* sorted list.

No difference except in the verb used to describe the operation.

> I just tested: Outlook Express performs the same way.

You mean "uses the same verb". TB performs identically. "A rose by any
other name...".

> I also noticed one annoying thing about The Bat!: the blue cursor
> bar over the message list remains still as I go further and read
> more messages. After reading, say, 20 messages in the list, I can no
> more say where I am with the reading by taking a short look at the
> message list.

Then you aren't using the embedded message list in the folder view you
have  open  for  browsing. Opening a folder view does *not* affect the
position  of  the "cursor" in the main TB window. Each folder view has
its' own message list and "cursor" which can be enable from the folder
window "View" menu.

> Sorry, waiting for another release ...

You  certainly  seem  to  be  having  problems  in  understanding TB's
different approach to the software you are used to. Everything you are
asking about is there. You are just looking at it from an odd angle.

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

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Re: TB! WishList

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Cristian,

On 01 May 2000 at 13:05:19 GMT +0300 (which was 11:05 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points on the subject
of "TB! WishList":

> What kind of logic is that ?

"Normal"  IMHO.  Previous is up in the list. Next is down in the list.
This  is  true  of  so many item lists. It's up to you to set the sort
order  to  logically  fit  that  universal  rule  or  to do the mental
flip-flop to switch the functions when using them.

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

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Re[2]: TB! WishList

[Eberhard Hafermalz]

Hello Jast,

Sunday, April 30, 2000, 3:59:43 PM, you wrote:

>> 13. Add Sender To AddressBook
>> Doesn't work in b19.

>  Well, it does with Beta/20 for sure.

Indeed. Sorry.

A couple more comments.

a) Is it possible to change the order of folders in any account?

b) I have tried the "thread by reference" option. It doesn't really
work that well, does it. I would prefer it very much to simply sort
the files according to (optional field) and then according to (another
optional field). This would save me the hastle of clicking through all
the read mails in the thread before getting the new one. Yes, I am
aware that for this there probably is a shortcut as well.

c) I'm still not happy with the way the auto-complete behaves. Can
anyone duplicate this:
1) I get a mail from pal Joe Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.
2) I add him to my address book with CTRL-W.
3) I open "New" and type Joe - no auto-complete. I type Smith - no
auto-complete.
I am sorry to be so insisting here but IMO this is not okay. It should
start completing after 2 or 3 letters typed, and it should do so
beginning with the alphabetically correct match in the addressbook. I
hate to refer to M$ slothware here but IE has this with URLs and it works.

Oh, a general note before wrapping this one. I am positively surprised
by the quality of this list. I had expected some RTFM mails but none
so far. Thanks for that.
-- 
Best regards,
 Eberhard Hafermalz

Education helps earning capacity. Ask any college professor.

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Re[2]: TB! WishList

[Eberhard Hafermalz]

Hello Alexander,

Sunday, April 30, 2000, 9:59:58 PM, you wrote:

>> >> 7. Forward/Reply of multiple msg
>> >> Merge them into one, attach all attachments in the forward mode to the
>> >> merged text file. Add up all the subjects into one and put it into the
>> >> subject field. Duplicate subjects should not be added in this line.
>> >> Probably a good idea to make it optional too.

> It's already there and is called "MIME forwarding". Have a look at Account 
options-->> Templates--> Forwarding.

Indeed - never would have suspected it there in the first place but it
is there. Doesn't really do what I meant but is a work-around.
-- 
Best regards,
 Eberhard Hafermalz

There once was a queen of Bulgaria
Whose bush had grown hairier and hairier,
Till a prince from Peru
Who came up for a screw
Had to hunt for her cunt with a terrier.

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Re[2]: TB! WishList

[Eberhard Hafermalz]

I have sent this mail yesterday but it has been refused bcs I attached
a small JPG to it showing the problems of sorting with Vew by
reference. Sorry for the delay. Thus I omit the pic, of course.


Hello Marck,

Sunday, April 30, 2000, 4:28:17 PM, you wrote:

>> 1-1. Autowrap
>> Doesn't work if the line is changed.
>> Example: I put wrap at 77 characters. I write my 78th char and it
>> wraps. I decide to write more in the line above and thus I push the
>> end of the line way beyond the 78th char. No wrapping occurs. This
>> would be no problem if all I would have to do to re-wrap is go to the
>> beginning of the next line below and press BACKSPACE.

> Enable Auto-Format. When allied with Auto-Wrap, that's what it does.

Nope, it doesn't. At least not the way it should. Try it. Type a line
with less chars than the wrap limit. Press RETURN. Type something. Be
annoyed. :-)

Additional remark after having read the "too robotic" thread: This
behavior is hardly what it should be like. It is neither proper
auto-wrap nor proper auto-format. :-(

>> 3. Extremely important: Mailing List Support

>   %TO=""%TO="%OFROMNAME on TBUDL<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"

Hahaaa! Thanks! It works! =B-D

>> 4. Sorting the ListView

> Use  threading  by  reference  with  sort  by  time. That does the job
> perfectly.

Ah, thanks!! Another problem solved ... well, perhaps. If you take a look at the
attached screen grab - shouldn't the Re2 be connected with the Re?

The JPG showed a Re: blah0, than a Re: blah1, and then a
Re[2]: blah0. I wonder if this supposed to be normal?

>> 5. PreView 1
>> The PreView feature could be greatly enhanced by
>> a) letting the user scroll it with CRSR UP/DN even though the
>> ListView is the active window part

> This works using Alt CRSR UP/DN in TB.

Correct! Cool, thanks again. It's a little different but does the
trick perfectly well.

>> 7. Forward/Reply of multiple msg
>> Merge them into one, attach all attachments in the forward mode to the
>> merged text file. Add up all the subjects into one and put it into the
>> subject field. Duplicate subjects should not be added in this line.
>> Probably a good idea to make it optional too.

> I don't like this one. It reeks of mangling, is fraught with potential
> hazards  is  is  far  more  esoteric than is good for it as a concept.
> Whenever  I  have had to do anything like this (and that's *extremely*
> rare  -  4  times maybe in 5 years?) I have done the merge by hand and
> not begrudged it.

Hmm. I have had a couple more occasions... but that's why I think
optional is a good solution.
BTW, right now here is such an occasion: Instead of replying to the
arguments of each single person I would love to select all your
replies, hit REPLY and go along editing and replying myself. :-)

> Programs  are  good  at following rules. Define a clear rule set for a
> sequence  of  actions  and it's a natural for a computer / software to
> do.  I  suggest  there  is  no  rule  set  to adequately describe this
> particular wish.

Well, there is IMHO. Exclude the attachments for the time being. Just
take the text. What's the problem in merging ASCII text (or even HTML,
for that matter) neatly one after another? As for the subject line,
well okay, RFC compliance would demand a cut after 1024 chars. Never
had *that* particular problem in all the time though.

Which brings up an idea... is there something like Rexx on this
platform? So that I can write my own little scripts, put them in a
menu item of any program supporting this, and make the program do what
my script says? Such a "merge" script should be done in no time flat,
provided TB! supports the "merge" command.

>> 8. Display Headers B4 D/L

>> The best solution: Make it optional,

> It  is  optional. Kill-filters *must* download headers first. The Mail
> Dispatcher  also  works  on downloading headers. With neither of these
> features active, messages are simply downloaded immediately.

I guess I have not quite understood the difference and work-together
of the Mail Dispatcher and Message Management check boxes. I have
tried to get rid of the header confirmation but couldn't get it right
yet. I might have made a mistake here, yes.

>> 15. Folders
>> On opening a folder, the cursor bar should immediately jump to the
>> next new/unread mail.

> I disagree vehemently. I want the cursor left where I left it. It took
> me a while to find those messages I'm reading in reference to an issue
> I'm  writing a note about. Just because a new mail has arrived in that
> folder,  why  should  my  last  focused message no longer be under the
> cursor?

Okay, here most of you seem to be of the same opposed opinion. Maybe
an option for this behavior could be the solution?
-- 
Best regards,
 Eberhard Hafermalz

Bradley's Bromide:
If computers get too powerful, we can organize
them into a committee -- that will do them in.


Created with TheBat! The only W98 mailer almost living up to the term...

-- 
---

Re: TB! WishList

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 1 May 00, at 13:05, Cristian Secara wrote
about "Re: TB! WishList":


Cristian, I think you miss the following point: when you browse the messages 
in a _separate_ window, there is a _hidden_ (by default) message list there 
(you need to tick View-->Message List in the menus of this window to see it) 
which has it's _own_ sorting order and the settings alike, which is thus 
different from the sorting order used in the default three-pane view (main 
window of the program).

If you switch the message list I'm speaking about ON, you'll see quite clearly 
that Next button opens the next message in the _current_ message list, that is, 
it opens the message right _below_ the current one in the list. The Previous 
button works vice versa.

This is quite logical IMHO, but a bit confusing when one has the Message List 
of the separate window closed (which's exactly so by default).

HTH;-)

> How is that ?
> For example, I read my own message, sent in The Bat! mailing list
> (opened in its own window).
> In order to view your replay, I have to press the "previous" toolbar
> button.
> 
> What kind of logic is that ?

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
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  DO NOT ADJUST YOUR MIND - the fault is with reality

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Re: TB! WishList

[Cristian Secara]

On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:10:13 -0500, Allie Martin wrote:

>The toolbar buttons that you speak about move you among messages as they
>appear in the list.

Yes, but in the *received* list, not in my own displayed list. And it
follows a reverse logic ("next" brings the previous in time message).

>It ignores message listing based on any user defined criteria.

Yes, I noticed that.

>This is the only way to maintain consistency and predictability
>of what it means to use them

It's the only way now, as the toolbar buttons are named "previous" and
"next".
If they were named "up" and "down", that would be more flexible.

>and it's the same thing with the keyboard up
>and down arrow keys. CTRl+] moves you to the next unread message as it
>appears in the list going in a descending fashion (up to down when looking
>at the list on the screen).

I always keep the most recent messages at the top of the list (sorted
by "created" column). The "next" / "previous" button gives a mess, if
the sender has composed a message at one time and sent the message at a
later time (like I do sometimes).

>This is a basic convention. Have you met
>behaviour in an application that's contrary to this?

Sure.
I usually use PMMail as the main mailer. It has few problems (most
noticeable regional character set problems) and am looking for a (good)
replacement. PMMail uses "up" and "down" toolbar buttons, relative to
the *user* sorted list.
If sorted ascending by name, the A... name is at top, the Z... name at
bottom. By pressing the "up" toolbar button, I go through the list from
Z to A.
If sorting ascending by date of message (created date), the most recent
stays at the top, the most old at the bottom. By pressing the "up"
toolbar button, I go through the list from the older message to the
more recent message.

I just tested: Outlook Express performs the same way.

I also noticed one annoying thing about The Bat!: the blue cursor bar
over the message list remains still as I go further and read more
messages. After reading, say, 20 messages in the list, I can no more
say where I am with the reading by taking a short look at the message
list.

Sorry, waiting for another release ...

Best wishes,
Cristi

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Re: TB! WishList

[Allie Martin]

On Mon, 01 May 2000 13:05:19 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:


> On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:26:38 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

>>Oddly enough it works exactly as you described for me.

> How is that ?
> For example, I read my own message, sent in The Bat! mailing list
> (opened in its own window).
> In order to view your replay, I have to press the "previous" toolbar
> button.

That's because you don't have the messages sorted in descending order.

As I said, 'previous' for the toolbar buttons and keyboard arrow buttons
are in reference to message positions in the message list. It's not with
respect to message quality. It cannot be, because if it were, it would be
trying to read your mind.

-- 
© 2000 Allie Martin   /*\   Using TB! v1.42 Beta/20 on Win2k Pro
---
Urghm! - "Reality is always more conservative than ideology. "

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Re: auto-format is too robotic isn't it?

[Allie Martin]

On Mon, 1 May 2000 09:36:30 +0100, Marck D. Pearlstone wrote:

>> if  I  intend  to indent the first line of that new paragraph with a
>> few blank spaces or whatever.

> Sadly auto-format denies the possibility of using paragraph indent. It
> suits  my  purposes  perfectly  because  I  don't indent paragraphs in
> email.  That  doesn't  help  you,  however. It may be that you have to
> settle  for  using  auto-wrap  only and using the Alt-L / Alt-J manual
> formatting keystrokes.

Those don't really allow it either if you use them. They'll remove the
spaces as well. You have to use neither.

-- 
© 2000 Allie Martin   /*\   Using TB! v1.42 Beta/20 on Win2k Pro
---
Urghm! - "Have an adequate day. "

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Re: TB! WishList

[Cristian Secara]

On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:26:38 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

>Oddly enough it works exactly as you described for me.

How is that ?
For example, I read my own message, sent in The Bat! mailing list
(opened in its own window).
In order to view your replay, I have to press the "previous" toolbar
button.

What kind of logic is that ?

Best wishes,
Cristi

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Re: auto-format is too robotic isn't it?

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi rellieb-cal,

On 01 May 2000 at 13:13:01 GMT +1000 (which was 04:13 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points on the subject
of "auto-format is too robotic isn't it?":

> Do I have to place a blank line in between these paragraphs

Yes.

> if  I  intend  to indent the first line of that new paragraph with a
> few blank spaces or whatever.

Sadly auto-format denies the possibility of using paragraph indent. It
suits  my  purposes  perfectly  because  I  don't indent paragraphs in
email.  That  doesn't  help  you,  however. It may be that you have to
settle  for  using  auto-wrap  only and using the Alt-L / Alt-J manual
formatting keystrokes.

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

*---
| Using The Bat! 1.42 Beta/20 S/N 14F4B4B2
| under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
*---

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Re: auto-format is too robotic isn't it?

[Lionel Elie Mamane]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello rellieb-cal,

Monday, May 01, 2000, 5:13:01 AM, you wrote:

rc> Do I have to place a blank line in between these paragraphs

Yes, you do.

- --
Best regards,
 Lionelmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
PGP RSA 1024 bits Key Fingerprint (KeyID: F6467875): 81A1 06A7 32C1 92DA 3B5A
3433 C96F B3CD
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4B8C F5F9 C17D
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56A9 BE67 D8C0 2B43 8B91 DF22
PGP DH/DSS 4096/1024 Key Fingerprint (KeyID: 3E7B4B73): 9DAD 3131 3ADA F50B
D096 002A B1C4 7317 3E7B 4B73

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Version: PGP 6.5i

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Re: Bat windows on the taskbar should be improved

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi rellieb-cal,

On 01 May 2000 at 12:13:03 GMT +1000 (which was 03:13 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points on the subject
of "Bat windows on the taskbar should be improved":

> I think the words View Folder are just taking up wasted space which is
> limited on taskbar items, and thus mostly all I ever see is the words
> 
> View Fol...

[snip]

> Thus  I claim the words 'View Folder' are not only superfluous but a
> hindrance.  Surely  just  a  noticeable icon would be enough to show
> that  it  is  a  folder  window  in  Bat, and any text would be best
> deployed in showing what the folder was actually called.

Excellent  point well made. I suggest that it is made in a forum where
it  can be assimilated into new TB development. One place to go is the
TB wish list here: http://www.konstantin-online.de/bat/. Another is to
mail RIT labs with a suggestion and finally to post on the TBBETA list
which is more often read by the developers.

It  is  unlikely  that this change could make it into the current beta
program  since  Stefan  has  announced that he will be implementing no
more  new  features  in  1.42 before release. IMHO it is so simple and
obvious an improvement that it could well be implemented.

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

*---
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| under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
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auto-format is too robotic isn't it?

[rellieb-cal]

Dear Bat folk

I have started to use Auto-Format in Bat editor, and I wonder how to
make a hard-return in some situations. For example, with wrap-text set
at 70, I type a line like

a particular type of cartridge, and wonder if you are doing it right.

and as soon as I type a space at the end of that sentence the cursor
jumps to the next line.  Fine, but lets say this is where I wish to
start a new paragraph.  Do I have to place a blank line in between
these paragraphs if I intend to indent the first line of that new
paragraph with a few blank spaces or whatever.  For it seems that if I
type spaces, they are politely or impolitely ignored.  The line will
only accept an alphanumeric character in position 1.
What gives?
What am I overlooking?

-- 
Best regards,
 Stephen

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