x27;s why NASA uses
Pu-238 with a thermoelectric couple for space probes IMHO.
Bob
- Original Message -
From: Eric Walker
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2014 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature
hot-cat Lugano
;
> --
>
> *From:* Bob Higgins [mailto:rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* jeudi 16 octobre 2014 22:51
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high
> temperature hot-cat Lugano demo
>
>
>
> I
that it was an oscillating
phenomenon inside the eCat.
_
From: Bob Higgins [mailto:rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com]
Sent: jeudi 16 octobre 2014 22:51
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature
hot-cat Lugano demo
I don't think
6 octobre 2014 22:31
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high
> temperature hot-cat Lugano demo
>
>
>
> I think we are describing pretty much the same thing. Only I don't
> believe there is anything but refractory castab
tobre 2014 22:31
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature
hot-cat Lugano demo
I think we are describing pretty much the same thing. Only I don't believe
there is anything but refractory castable insulation in the large diameter
support
j.bob.higg...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* jeudi 16 octobre 2014 19:00
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high
> temperature hot-cat Lugano demo
>
>
>
> Seems to me that at the temperatures we are talking about (>1000C) that
>
ob Higgins [mailto:rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com]
Sent: jeudi 16 octobre 2014 19:00
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature
hot-cat Lugano demo
Seems to me that at the temperatures we are talking about (>1000C) that bulk
magnetic effects are pr
gt; *From:* Arnaud Kodeck
>> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 16, 2014 8:10 AM
>> *Subject:* RE: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high
>> temperature hot-cat Lugano demo
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>>
>>
>> Just a thou
ement of plasma. But,
>> the « encaps » might contain a proper wires configuration to close the
>> rotating magnetic field formed by the 3 phases current.
>>
>>
>>
>> Arnaud
>> ----------
>>
>> *From:* Bob Higgins [mailto:rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:
; *From:* Arnaud Kodeck
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 16, 2014 8:10 AM
> *Subject:* RE: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high
> temperature hot-cat Lugano demo
>
> Bob,
>
>
>
> Just a thought. I’m not an expert of magnetic co
on to close the
> rotating magnetic field formed by the 3 phases current.
>
>
>
> Arnaud
> --
>
> *From:* Bob Higgins [mailto:rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* jeudi 16 octobre 2014 17:05
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:En
- Original Message -
From: Arnaud Kodeck
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2014 8:10 AM
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature
hot-cat Lugano demo
Bob,
Just a thought. I'm not an expert of magnetic confineme
I believe the ends are completely sealed with a compound like the Vitcast
1400 INS-H. I also think the space between the inner and radiating tube is
probably filled with this same compound. You don't want air flowing in
there in case there are cracks in the alumina adhesive put over the heater
co
Sent: jeudi 16 octobre 2014 17:05
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature
hot-cat Lugano demo
I am pretty sure these "endcaps" are just mechanical supports for the hot
tube in the middle. They are large alumina outer rings that
I am pretty sure these "endcaps" are just mechanical supports for the hot
tube in the middle. They are large alumina outer rings that have been
filled with a cast-able refractory insulation such as a Vitcast 1200 INS or
Vitcast 1400 INS-H. They insulate the mounting apparatus from the hot
radiati
: Eric Walker
To: vortex-l
Sent: Thu, Oct 16, 2014 1:32 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature
hot-cat Lugano demo
On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 9:24 AM, Bob Higgins wrote:
I believe the large tubes on the end to be thermally insulating supports for
the hot
If the LENR reaction suffers from thermal runaway then the best means for
cooling is a coolant fluid slightly below the target temperature. Eg
1180°C coolant and 1200°C running temp so raising temp to 1240°C would then
triple cooling rate, so 'clamping' the temperature. A lithium heat pipe
would
On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 9:24 AM, Bob Higgins
wrote:
I believe the large tubes on the end to be thermally insulating supports
> for the hot central 2 cm tube.
A question that came to me was whether the alumina endcaps could be
replaced with metal endcaps of a suitable alloy in the context of a l
I wrote:
I assume, then, that magnetic domains and the curie temperature are not
> relevant. I'm thinking more along the lines of metal vapor and partially
> ionized nickel and iron atoms and particles, which will carry some amount
> of electric charge.
>
Note that as the temperature rises, the
such units are not made as 3 phase helically wound assemblies, MoSi2 is
non-ductile/brittle and very difficult to make and even worse to bond to,
and there is still the unanswered problem of how do you bond inconel wire
that can survive only to <1350°C to an insulated heating element that is
suppos
These might be pretty similar to Rossi's setup. (Google Superthal smu)
Superthal heating modules
Prefabricated heating modules consisting of vacuum-formed ceramic fibre
with an integral Kanthal Super molybdenum-disilicide (MoSi2) heating
element for up to 1750°C (3180°F) element temperature.
From: "ChemE Stewart"
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2014 11:08:42 AM
> Me too, good job. Tube in a tube reminds of the model rockets I used to
> build. Fin supports between tubes might explain the wider dark band seen as a
> spiral?. Do you think a lot of the heat might be discharged in a spac
I believe the ends, between the central tube and the outer 2 cm hot tube,
are filled in with a refractory cement. In fact, that whole space, and
maybe not the ends could be filled in to help improve the thermal
conductivity. Most importantly it should keep out the air that could
oxidize the heate
Me too, good job. Tube in a tube reminds of the model rockets I used to
build. Fin supports between tubes might explain the wider dark band seen
as a spiral?. Do you think a lot of the heat might be discharged in a
space between tubes and out the ends? Or are the ends completely sealed?
On Wedn
You & Alan have done an amazing job sleuthing out the details of this
thing. I suppose you are right, although I cannot tell. If you are right it
is a great job and if you are wrong you have a vivid imagination!
- Jed
om: *"Bob Higgins"
> *To: *vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 15, 2014 9:24:07 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high
> temperature hot-cat Lugano demo
>
> I just suggested the following as the construction of the latest hotCa
.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2014 9:24:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature
hot-cat Lugano demo
I just suggested the following as the construction of the latest hotCat to
MFMP:
Here is a section drawing of the end of the new hotCat as I see i
One detail is how does the e-cat work when in after-death mode (SSM).
One mystery for me is the powder not to melt, hotter and the around...
I feel E-cat are very well engineered... we can be surpised like physicists
were by felischman&pons calorimeter...
2014-10-15 18:24 GMT+02:00 Bob Higgins :
I just suggested the following as the construction of the latest hotCat to
MFMP:
Here is a section drawing of the end of the new hotCat as I see it (
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Pc25a4cOM2WXBNRjE2bDVVT1U/view?usp=sharing
). I believe IH would have used as many off-the-shelf components as
On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:04 AM, Robert Lynn wrote:
Highly doubtful. Above curie temperture of Nickel so no ferromagnetism,
> and powder too microscopic hot resistivity too high
>
I assume, then, that magnetic domains and the curie temperature are not
relevant. I'm thinking more along the line
Highly doubtful. Above curie temperture of Nickel so no ferromagnetism,
and powder too microscopic hot resistivity too high, and AC frequency,
current and number of windings too low for strong magnetic fields or
significant eddy currents to form and give push via lenzs law.
On 15 October 2014 14:
I wrote:
The following is a bit speculative, but perhaps someone can correct any
> misstatements I make -- if there is a magnetic field being created by the
> cables coiling around the tube [1], I believe the field would point along
> the axis of the tube, creating a theta pinch, even if only mome
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 8:15 AM, Bob Higgins
wrote:
Why do we think the end caps are so big? Are they part of a lower
> temperature insulated mounting system?
>
The following is a bit speculative, but perhaps someone can correct any
misstatements I make -- if there is a magnetic field being cre
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 8:15 AM, Bob Higgins
wrote:
Why do we think the 3-phase drive is used?
>
I'm guessing this has to do with an induction mode, perhaps creating a
condition not unlike a microwave inside the E-Cat, with electric arcing
between the various iron and nickel particles. I assume
Use of 3 ph. power is not really a mystery. Most industrial equipment
is 3 ph. and each leg must be kept in balance with the others. This
is easiest with 3 ph. delta configs.
This theory is based on the fact that heat is assumed to come from the
nickel particles. I believe that heat comes from the alumina and the Ni
particles provide field emitters to cause fusion at a distance far from the
nickel particles.
The Ni particles might be located in the coolest part of the
In the steady state, I don't think the reaction powder will be any cooler
than the vessel. If the photons are absorbed in the vessel and the vessel
heats, the surrounding vessel will radiate, conduct, and convect heat back
to the powder which will drive it to be the same temperature as the
surroun
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 1:21 PM, H Veeder wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:15 AM, Bob Higgins
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>> Can we refocus this thread into discussion about the construction of the
>> latest reactor? For example:
>>
>>- Why do we think the end caps are so big? Are they
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:15 AM, Bob Higgins
wrote:
>
>
> Another point has to do with how the heat is conveyed from a LENR
> reaction. Since the LENR reaction is likely a nano-scale event, heat must
> be conveyed from the reaction in a way that doesn't make the NAE the
> hottest spot. Otherwi
paths.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Bob Higgins
To: vortex-l
Sent: Tue, Oct 14, 2014 11:15 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature
hot-cat Lugano demo
Robert, I think a lot of your observations are spot on. I would like to
continue
The caps must be resistant to hydrogen exfiltration, i.e. not sintered. Is
there some mention in the test report that says that the outer alumina tube
is hydrogen proof? Does it say that the outer tube is sintered alumina?
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:15 AM, Bob Higgins
wrote:
> Robert, I think a
See my thread: Super-fluidic heat flow
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:15 AM, Bob Higgins
wrote:
> Robert, I think a lot of your observations are spot on. I would like to
> continue discussion of the likely construction of the latest IH hotCat.
> You are likely correct that the corrosion of liquid
I agree the coil is imbedded within the alumina shell
Maybe the end caps are heat sinks?
I still think the unit works off induction from the coil
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:15 AM, Bob Higgins
wrote:
> Robert, I think a lot of your observations are spot on. I would like to
> continue discuss
Robert, I think a lot of your observations are spot on. I would like to
continue discussion of the likely construction of the latest IH hotCat.
You are likely correct that the corrosion of liquid and vapor phase lithium
would be terrible for use of a metal reactor vessel. That is probably why
the
did not rossi already answer that question, by saying that the conductor
inside were not so trivial...
doped conductor he says...
we should be careful not to take unfounded assumption, then deduce false
things from that...
maybe is it more simple to start from the instruments and guess how it is
t I have read. Do you
>> think that enough of it is in there to perform the function you are
>> suggesting?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Robert Lynn
>> To: vortex-l
>> Sent: Sun, Oct 12, 2014
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 8:43 PM, Robert Lynn wrote:
... eg if Ø20mm outer wall is at 1200°C (approx max given revised COP of
> around 2 from temp reading that is obviously in error due to non-melting of
> inconel, though could be significantly lower)
>
I've taken a second look at the TIP report,
t;
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Lynn
> To: vortex-l
> Sent: Sun, Oct 12, 2014 1:35 pm
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature
> hot-cat Lugano demo
>
> if there was an inner metal cylinder to contain reactants
materials issues with high temperature
hot-cat Lugano demo
if there was an inner metal cylinder to contain reactants (particularly
insanely leak-prone hydrogen at high temperatures) then it would be sealed by
welding not half assed approaches like alumina glue. Until you have worked
with hydrogen
Sent: Sun, Oct 12, 2014 9:54 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature
hot-cat Lugano demo
Right, if the reaction/core is producing the heat and not the wires.
On Sunday, October 12, 2014, David Roberson wrote:
The wires must be at a lower temperature than the
al is available directly
> adjacent to the wires. Perhaps the pictures can be carefully observed to
> determine whether or not this is the case.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Lynn >
> To: vortex-l >
> Sent: Sun, Oct 12, 2014 12:
-Original Message-
From: Stefan Israelsson Tampe
To: vortex-l
Sent: Sun, Oct 12, 2014 12:49 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature
hot-cat Lugano demo
Yes but in that case the core can be hotter then the cables. We don't know
about the powder, and the ch
-Original Message-
From: Robert Lynn
To: vortex-l
Sent: Sun, Oct 12, 2014 12:24 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature
hot-cat Lugano demo
Fig 12b. page 26. Only just notice that they say they are "inconel"
resistance wires. But h
Jones wrote: "A pyrometer is the only way to test high temperature
accurately. The IR is completely deficient in this situation. Ahern was
doing this kind of testing as far back as when Rossi was operating the
etrodragon scam."
Not true. A type B platinum thermocouple is highly accurate in th
I like Eric's link to Al2O3 as a diffusion barrier for H2
Diffusion Barrier to Oxygen and Hydrogen
This process is unique because the processed alpha-Al2O3 molecules are
FULLY OXIDIZED molecules with ORDERED STRUCTURES. The alpha-Al2O3 oxide
structure, once formed, serves as a nearly perfect diff
From: Eric Walker
Jones has also alluded to secret knowledge that there is an ampule (perhaps
from Brian Ahern).
Whoa… this is vortex guesswork, not secret, and was supplied by someone else
here as being the best if not only way to avoid the hydrogen diffusion problem,
the air contamina
I wrote:
An observer there for the opening reported no such refractory shell (though
>> might be under NDA).
>>
>
> Can you elaborate on this detail? Is it a CMNS thing?
>
I'm strongly inclined to think there's an inner cylinder that slides within
the body of the reactor. Otherwise the diamond
Ok I agree, then they did not optimize on any unfourtunate transparancy
effect. So to conclude
* You can see the fins having the same temperature at the upper profile as
the bulk meaning that any transparance light
in that region is the same maxima superimposed - hard to explain an 3.5 cop
there
*
Activated alumina is a porous, granular substance that is used as a
substrate for catalysts and as an adsorbent for removing water from gases
and liquids. Smelter-grade alumina accounts for 90 percent of all alumina
produced; it is transported to aluminum plants, where it is electrolyzed
into alumi
This method of sealing and the fact that the reactor is not purged of air
means that the hydrogen is bound in a solid as a hydride at all times to
metals in the reactor most likely aluminum or lithium.
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 1:35 PM, Robert Lynn wrote:
> if there was an inner metal cylinder to
if there was an inner metal cylinder to contain reactants (particularly
insanely leak-prone hydrogen at high temperatures) then it would be sealed
by welding not half assed approaches like alumina glue. Until you have
worked with hydrogen (I worked with stirling engines containing hydrogen)
it is
It is said that Rossi uses a magnetic field to startup the E-Cat. Could
this be a large infusion of inductive heat supported by aluminum or lithium
aluminum?
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Stefan Israelsson Tampe <
stefan.ita...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is still the evidences that ther is a co
There is still the evidences that ther is a coil and that rossi has the
powder in a varying magnetic field. He could use the wires both as
resistive heating and
controlling the reaction rate, maybe, maybe because you can stir it using
localized magnetic fields stemming from this very strange nuclea
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Robert Lynn wrote:
> Apart from the fact that the 'glue' would have residual porosity that
> would probably help vent all hydrogen at high temp that is pretty strong
> indicator that there is no refractory metal shell in there to prevent
> leakage if that is a bi
Robert I think you make good points, not sure what the inner cylinder is
made of and I guess that if it is metal it has to be thin in order
to not show up on the weight. There is also the possiblity that eddi
current's heat the cyllinder at high temps but then can we keep the
wires cold. Also, this
inductive heating works based on the area of the conductive loop cut by the
changing magnetic field, the rate of change of the magnetic field and the
conductivity of the material. Consequently microscopic powder made with
high resistivity hot iron/nickel will have extremely weak response to any
lo
50 or 50 CPS AC current
should read
50 or 60 cycle AC current
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 1:13 PM, Axil Axil wrote:
> Rossi has said that he uses AC current in the heater and that DC current
> does not work. This might indicate 50 or 50 CPS AC current is used to
> induce heat in plasma and/or iron
Rossi has said that he uses AC current in the heater and that DC current
does not work. This might indicate 50 or 50 CPS AC current is used to
induce heat in plasma and/or iron.
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Axil Axil wrote:
> There are also iron particles in the fuel mix that might support i
There are also iron particles in the fuel mix that might support inductive
heating local to the fuel mix. Inductive heating might result in the
primary heater wire being colder than the fuel charge thus casting a darker
shadow that we see in the pictures of the reactor in operation. I like the
indu
The tubercles on the nickel powder function to ionize the hydrogen using
dipole motion induced by heat.
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Robert Lynn <
robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
> far above curie limit for Ni, magnetic fields won't move powder
> magnetically, only ions, but temps are
far above curie limit for Ni, magnetic fields won't move powder
magnetically, only ions, but temps are too low for significant Li or H ions
to exist, and no ionising radiation sources in evidence.
On 13 October 2014 00:49, Stefan Israelsson Tampe
wrote:
> Yes but in that case the core can be hot
they dropped the powder in through a hole and then sealed it with alumina
refractory glue around a metal thermocouple (why are its readings not
reported???). Apart from the fact that the 'glue' would have residual
porosity that would probably help vent all hydrogen at high temp that is
pretty stro
Yes but in that case the core can be hotter then the cables. We don't know
about the powder, and the changes of magnetic fields inside the core could
stir the powder around and by changing that behavior you might end up
controlling the reaction rate. Also inductive heating of an inner
containing cy
inductive heating only works on conductive materials with sufficient
thickness/area through which the changing magnetic flux passes to allow
eddy currents to form. With 150Hz pulses Nickel particles of tiny scale
would not be affected (like thin motor laminates) - it would only work to
heat a seco
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Robert Lynn wrote:
> This reactor is mostly nickel droplets in lithium gas (the hydrogen will
> all diffuse away through porous sintered alumina rapidly at such high
> temperatures, but perhaps is useful to create reducing conditions
> initially).
>
The report t
How do we know that iti s resistive heating that is taking place? Bob
Greenyer at MFMP sugested that it is an inductive heater this means that
the wires
get a bit cooler then the heated core.
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 6:24 PM, Robert Lynn wrote:
> Fig 12b. page 26. Only just notice that they say
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 9:24 AM, Robert Lynn wrote:
There is also a mistake in their discussion for these figures, the metal
> resistors within the reactor would necessarily have to be hotter than the
> reactor itself if they are to be able to output heat into the reactor.
>
Overall very interes
Fig 12b. page 26. Only just notice that they say they are "inconel"
resistance wires. But how can the resistor wire, external to the reactor,
glow more brightly than the reactor itself (implying it is hotter)? Also
if the reactor external surface is at 1250-1410°C, then on top of the
30-50°C te
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Jones Beene wrote:
If the camera had been calibrated to 1400 C instead of 500 C it would have
> shown the same ~3.5 OU on the dummy load as was later seen on the active
> load!
If this is true, it should be easy enough for someone to arrange a demo of
the phenom
During the discussion about the first TIP, at energikatalysatorn there was
a huge stir about the applicability of using a heat camera to validate the
output energy until
a heat camera expert enter the discussion and although he was skeptical of
the final result, said and explained thoroughly that
I wrote:
> The actual temperature would be around 750 deg C (based on the
> calibration). The incandescent portions would show up as much more than
> 1400 deg C. Anyone can see that is impossible.
>
I mean "anyone can see" that a real temperature difference on that scale is
impossible. I am not
Let’s keep an open mind and use logic as a powerful probe of the Rossi
reactor.
Robert’s analysis is a good one and it points to some contradictions
between valid everyday engineering assumptions and the processes that are
going on inside of the reactor. These factors are hard to reconcile. But
Jones Beene wrote:
> You, Ahern, and the other skeptics have not addressed the reasons why a
> large mistake with the IR camera is unlikely. So I assume you have no
> rebuttal. Until you do respond I will assume the issue is settled and there
> is no problem.
>
>
>
> Are you blind – or you are n
From: Jed Rothwell
You, Ahern, and the other skeptics have not addressed the reasons why a large
mistake with the IR camera is unlikely. So I assume you have no rebuttal. Until
you do respond I will assume the issue is settled and there is no problem.
Are you blind – or you are not li
Jones Beene wrote:
> Whether you realize it or not - you are sounding hugely hypocritical –
> especially based on the way you slimed DGT with far less evidence of
> misconduct, based on Kim’s report
>
I have never discussed Kim's report. I do not understand it. Perhaps you
mean the Gamberale re
Jed,
Whether you realize it or not - you are sounding hugely hypocritical –
especially based on the way you slimed DGT with far less evidence of
misconduct, based on Kim’s report
… and yet now, with almost overwhelming evidence that this report is bogus,
contrived, and not independent in any rem
Jones Beene wrote:
> Andrea Rossi who gradually brought it to the power level requested by us.
> Rossi later intervened to switch off the dummy, and in the following
> subsequent operations on the E-Cat.” (from page 6 of the original, before
> being edited out)
>
It has not been edited out.
If Robert’s points were not devastating enough, there is more.
>From Ahern: “The calibrations stopped at 500C for a foolish if not deceptive
reason… blackbody radiation was absorbed by the alumina to a greater extent
at lower temperatures. If the power was increased to achieve temperatures of
1200
Some questions on the thermography:
Did they do thermography on all sides or only from front? If so how do we
know that there wasn't some insulation internal to the alumina that
restricted the heat output from the sides + bottom that were not recorded?
The tube radiation would have heated the fra
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