[Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice: hillbillyholiday

[Asaf Bartov]

Dear Wikimedians,

The pseudonymous list subscriber "hillbillyholiday" is on moderation.

This is an opportunity to re-iterate that the Universal Code of Conduct[1]
applies to all Wikimedia spaces, including mailing lists hosted on the
Wikimedia servers, like this one.  Asserting, even indirectly ("anyone")
that one's interlocutor is a Nazi, violates the UCoC, and will not be
tolerated.

Long-time subscribers know we tolerate a lot of criticism of projects,
plans, and opinions on this list -- even *unfounded* criticism -- provided
it is *civil* and compliant with behavior expectations.

Please refrain from further violations of the UCoC, but by all means
continue to disagree with each other and to express criticism.

   Asaf Bartov, list admin (volunteer role)

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct

-- 
Asaf Bartov 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/BVZO4YJUD4K3KQOTQW7UMUFOSJJ6HIE5/
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Peter Southwood]

Unfortunately I think all these points are valid. These behavious do not 
improve communication for many of us. There seems to be a choice between 
freedom of expression and effective communication in a multicultural group. 
There is theoretically the option of asking for clarification, but it is often 
ignored. Sometimes bluntly refused, and sometimes claimed not to be necessary.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Eduardo Testart
Sent: 12 September 2020 22:45
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

Hi All,

I just wanted to give my opinion on how to make things more civil and
gentle in general, and also to add clarity to the threads. As a non-English
native speaker, there are many things I consider do not help at all in
written discussions in general in any given list, most of the time when
these things are done, then everything turns challenging, complicated, or
sadly blatantly uncivil:

1) Irony
2) Jokes
3) Long and numerous paragraphs (extensive writing)
4) Acronyms

I believe these things are very important to pay attention too and should
be avoided, no matter what we are feeling or thinking about any specific
subject. Not doing so regularly leads to conflictive states, and paying
attention to the latter and restraining from doing so normally contributes
to open discussions.

I believe also that helps a lot to reduce:
5) Sayings and expressions

Maybe all this resonates with someone, and if not, it's also ok :]


Cheers!

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 1:00 PM Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:50 PM Dan Szymborski 
> wrote:
>
> > As long as people are going to continue to talk about me and imply that
> I'm
> > actually *harassing* people, then I feel I have a right to defend myself.
> >
>
> Nobody ever denied you that right.
>
> I brought up that the UCoC standard is a reasonable person standard, not a
> > "most offended person" standard and this was never addressed. Instead, I
> > was demeaned by being placed on a special moderation protocol. Asaf
> Bartov
> > threatened me that if I continued to defend myself -- even as people
> > continued to discuss me -- that *I'm* hijacking the thread.
>
>
> What I actually wrote to you, and I quote, was:
>
> "I also must insist that you not hijack this thread, which is for
> discussing the draft UCoC.  If you see value in bringing up your concerns
> on those other matters on this list, please do so on separate threads.
> Since you have expressed the opinion that this UCoC draft is illegitimate,
> I suggest there is really no reason for you to post further on this thread,
> leaving it for those who *would* like to discuss it."
>
> I then did indeed threaten that *if you continue to disrupt the UCoC
> thread*, your messages won't be let through. As you can see, your latest
> letter, since it was no longer disrupting the UCoC thread, *was* let
> through.
>
> I asked Asaf if Koerner was given a similar warning for a very long, smug,
> > patronizing screed about me as on-topic. Bartov reiterated that nobody
> else
> > was given any warning about off-topic communication. Only *I* am not
> > allowed to talk about *my* apparent offense.
> >
>
> Since now you quote a question you asked privately, I will quote the answer
> I gave you:
>
> 
> "No, I did not warn Ms. Koerner about thread hijacking, because the very
> problem with thread hijacking is that once the change of topic is made,
> people legitimately want to respond. I have not observed Ms. Koerner
> *initiating* a thread hijack.
>
> I do encourage you to continue contributing on the list, including in
> criticizing whatever flaws you find in the Foundation's actions.  I
> certainly find such flaws myself.
>
> But again, as a professional, perhaps you can be less ornery and more
> measured in expressing the *substance* of your concerns. It would at the
> very least be no less effective, and perhaps more so."
> 
>
>A.
> --
> Asaf Bartov 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>


-- 
Eduardo Testart
(56)(98) 293 5278 Móvil
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wi

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Asaf Bartov]

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 7:46 AM Kunal Mehta  wrote:

>
> > That is indeed unfortunate! It *used* to list explicit email addresses of
> > the admins. I'll see if there's any setting that can be changed.
>
> This change was intentional, see
>  (presumably there's some
> mailman config to toggle it if people really wanted).
>

Ah yes, thank you.

I documented the list admins on wiki:
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia-l=revision=20447613=18927728
> >.
> Maybe consider adding it to the list description?
>

Thank you, done.

   A.
-- 
Asaf Bartov 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Kunal Mehta]

Hi,

On 2020-09-10 04:34, Asaf Bartov wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 14:05 Fæ  wrote:
>> Who are the list mods?
> 
> The current list admins are John Vandenberg, Shani Evenstein, and I.
> 
>> Unfortunately, this is not made clear at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> 
> That is indeed unfortunate! It *used* to list explicit email addresses of
> the admins. I'll see if there's any setting that can be changed.

This change was intentional, see
 (presumably there's some
mailman config to toggle it if people really wanted).

I documented the list admins on wiki:
.
Maybe consider adding it to the list description?

-- Legoktm

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Eduardo Testart]

Hi All,

I just wanted to give my opinion on how to make things more civil and
gentle in general, and also to add clarity to the threads. As a non-English
native speaker, there are many things I consider do not help at all in
written discussions in general in any given list, most of the time when
these things are done, then everything turns challenging, complicated, or
sadly blatantly uncivil:

1) Irony
2) Jokes
3) Long and numerous paragraphs (extensive writing)
4) Acronyms

I believe these things are very important to pay attention too and should
be avoided, no matter what we are feeling or thinking about any specific
subject. Not doing so regularly leads to conflictive states, and paying
attention to the latter and restraining from doing so normally contributes
to open discussions.

I believe also that helps a lot to reduce:
5) Sayings and expressions

Maybe all this resonates with someone, and if not, it's also ok :]


Cheers!

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 1:00 PM Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:50 PM Dan Szymborski 
> wrote:
>
> > As long as people are going to continue to talk about me and imply that
> I'm
> > actually *harassing* people, then I feel I have a right to defend myself.
> >
>
> Nobody ever denied you that right.
>
> I brought up that the UCoC standard is a reasonable person standard, not a
> > "most offended person" standard and this was never addressed. Instead, I
> > was demeaned by being placed on a special moderation protocol. Asaf
> Bartov
> > threatened me that if I continued to defend myself -- even as people
> > continued to discuss me -- that *I'm* hijacking the thread.
>
>
> What I actually wrote to you, and I quote, was:
>
> "I also must insist that you not hijack this thread, which is for
> discussing the draft UCoC.  If you see value in bringing up your concerns
> on those other matters on this list, please do so on separate threads.
> Since you have expressed the opinion that this UCoC draft is illegitimate,
> I suggest there is really no reason for you to post further on this thread,
> leaving it for those who *would* like to discuss it."
>
> I then did indeed threaten that *if you continue to disrupt the UCoC
> thread*, your messages won't be let through. As you can see, your latest
> letter, since it was no longer disrupting the UCoC thread, *was* let
> through.
>
> I asked Asaf if Koerner was given a similar warning for a very long, smug,
> > patronizing screed about me as on-topic. Bartov reiterated that nobody
> else
> > was given any warning about off-topic communication. Only *I* am not
> > allowed to talk about *my* apparent offense.
> >
>
> Since now you quote a question you asked privately, I will quote the answer
> I gave you:
>
> 
> "No, I did not warn Ms. Koerner about thread hijacking, because the very
> problem with thread hijacking is that once the change of topic is made,
> people legitimately want to respond. I have not observed Ms. Koerner
> *initiating* a thread hijack.
>
> I do encourage you to continue contributing on the list, including in
> criticizing whatever flaws you find in the Foundation's actions.  I
> certainly find such flaws myself.
>
> But again, as a professional, perhaps you can be less ornery and more
> measured in expressing the *substance* of your concerns. It would at the
> very least be no less effective, and perhaps more so."
> 
>
>A.
> --
> Asaf Bartov 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>


-- 
Eduardo Testart
(56)(98) 293 5278 Móvil
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Asaf Bartov]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:50 PM Dan Szymborski 
wrote:

> As long as people are going to continue to talk about me and imply that I'm
> actually *harassing* people, then I feel I have a right to defend myself.
>

Nobody ever denied you that right.

I brought up that the UCoC standard is a reasonable person standard, not a
> "most offended person" standard and this was never addressed. Instead, I
> was demeaned by being placed on a special moderation protocol. Asaf Bartov
> threatened me that if I continued to defend myself -- even as people
> continued to discuss me -- that *I'm* hijacking the thread.


What I actually wrote to you, and I quote, was:

"I also must insist that you not hijack this thread, which is for
discussing the draft UCoC.  If you see value in bringing up your concerns
on those other matters on this list, please do so on separate threads.
Since you have expressed the opinion that this UCoC draft is illegitimate,
I suggest there is really no reason for you to post further on this thread,
leaving it for those who *would* like to discuss it."

I then did indeed threaten that *if you continue to disrupt the UCoC
thread*, your messages won't be let through. As you can see, your latest
letter, since it was no longer disrupting the UCoC thread, *was* let
through.

I asked Asaf if Koerner was given a similar warning for a very long, smug,
> patronizing screed about me as on-topic. Bartov reiterated that nobody else
> was given any warning about off-topic communication. Only *I* am not
> allowed to talk about *my* apparent offense.
>

Since now you quote a question you asked privately, I will quote the answer
I gave you:


"No, I did not warn Ms. Koerner about thread hijacking, because the very
problem with thread hijacking is that once the change of topic is made,
people legitimately want to respond. I have not observed Ms. Koerner
*initiating* a thread hijack.

I do encourage you to continue contributing on the list, including in
criticizing whatever flaws you find in the Foundation's actions.  I
certainly find such flaws myself.

But again, as a professional, perhaps you can be less ornery and more
measured in expressing the *substance* of your concerns. It would at the
very least be no less effective, and perhaps more so."


   A.
-- 
Asaf Bartov 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[David Gerard]

If we didn't want serious discussions to come to this mailing list, or
have discussions on it taken seriously, this thread would so far be a
great example for not doing so. Thankfully, it won't actually succeed
in derailing the discussions.


- d.

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Dan Szymborski]

As long as people are going to continue to talk about me and imply that I'm
actually *harassing* people, then I feel I have a right to defend myself.

No, clear warnings weren't given. I compared the action of a *non-profit
board* tangentially to *flatulence* and I was immediately talked down to
and lectured at in a patronizing fashion. Nothing was explained, it was
just supposed to be self-evident that it *was* offensive and it *was*
across a line without a single shred of an argument that covered rules or
policy.

I brought up that the UCoC standard is a reasonable person standard, not a
"most offended person" standard and this was never addressed. Instead, I
was demeaned by being placed on a special moderation protocol. Asaf Bartov
threatened me that if I continued to defend myself -- even as people
continued to discuss me -- that *I'm* hijacking the thread. Jackie Koerner
spoke at me in an incredibly condescending, arrogant manner, presuming it
was their place to educate me so I could "learn" what I did.

I asked Asaf if Koerner was given a similar warning for a very long, smug,
patronizing screed about me as on-topic. Bartov reiterated that nobody else
was given any warning about off-topic communication. Only *I* am not
allowed to talk about *my* apparent offense.

Now "other cultures" is considered an excuse for insults far more direct
than I made with myself as the target. People like Allen and Southwood ask
for specifics and are brushed off with "well, it just is." You want to talk
about other cultures, but then don't respect our culture, where it's
extremely offensive to accuse people without evidence, start with the
assumption that the person whose opinion you don't like is in the wrong,
and hold out people for mockery.

I intentionally didn't single-out who I think the worst players on the WMF
board are. I intentionally, when tweeting this conversation and when
exchanging DMs and emails with colleagues in tech, journalism, and related
entities that make donations to Wikimedia, redact all the names and made it
clear that my beef is with the WMF and that anyone who tries to harass any
of these people are not on my side. I've even --surprisingly -- gotten a
few emails from administrators at English Wikipedia who I don't even know,
giving me support though they're concerned if they speak up, everything
will blow up even more and they will be subject to reprisals from WMF.

I daresay I've shown the individuals referenced here with far more respect
than has been shown me. I don't have any desire to "educate" people to the
"correct" opinion as a few of you do. I'm just expressing my opinion on how
the WMF board has conducted itself, I don't seek to lecture Koerner into
seeing their error of their ways or have any desire to prevent Bartov from
effectively responding to criticism as they presume to do for me.

If you enter into this conversation thinking things as harmless as
comparisons of the WMF to a fart resulting in severe penalties are things a
UCoC will successfully bring to the communities, you are dead wrong. Given
the history of communications "at" English Wikipedia from the WMF and
various Wikimedia-connected individuals causing months of turmoil, I'm
fairly certain that the target of disdainful lecturing should be targeted
at the mirror, not me.

Cheers,

Dan


On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:04 AM Quim Gil  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 4:08 AM effe iets anders  >
> wrote:
>
> > I would love us to be more gentle, but at the same time it is also
> > important to recognize diversity in character, expression and opinion.
>
>
> Well, precisely?  :)
>
> "To recognize diversity in character, expression and opinion" is crucial.
> Recognizing privilege is just as important.
>
> There is abundant evidence about strong and disrespectful language driving
> away those who actually would contribute diversity in a conversation. For
> one (usually privileged) participant that goes through moderation after
> ignoring warnings, how many (usually less or no privileged) disengage and
> leave silently to avoid or boycott disrespectful behavior? That is where
> the big loss in diversity lies.
>
> One good reason to really care about high standards of respect and civility
> is precisely to increase the diversity of our movement. Most of our "open"
> discussion channels are not open at all. Full participation in these
> channels is in practice quite exclusive. Those who thrive are privileged
> persons who can handle an aggressive communication style or even enjoy it.
> Wikimedia-l is no exception, and the UCoC thread is a typical example.
>
> More and more contributors are taking action to change this trend, and this
> is one of the best things happening right now in our movement.
>
> --
> Quim Gil (he/him)
> Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Robert Fernandez]

This is all so predictably tiresome.  Any attempt to center a discussion
forum on its intended purpose is hijacked by people outraged that they are
deprived of their own personal soapboxes.

I see this matter is spilling over into multiple threads.  I propose that
objectors start a new thread to discuss the relative merits of flatulent
language and keep all the discussion there to prevent it from stinking up
the rest of the forum.  Please limit yourself to one long message and make
sure you firmly expel this issue from your systems so we can all
collectively move forward.
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Quim Gil]

Hi,

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 4:08 AM effe iets anders 
wrote:

> I would love us to be more gentle, but at the same time it is also
> important to recognize diversity in character, expression and opinion.


Well, precisely?  :)

"To recognize diversity in character, expression and opinion" is crucial.
Recognizing privilege is just as important.

There is abundant evidence about strong and disrespectful language driving
away those who actually would contribute diversity in a conversation. For
one (usually privileged) participant that goes through moderation after
ignoring warnings, how many (usually less or no privileged) disengage and
leave silently to avoid or boycott disrespectful behavior? That is where
the big loss in diversity lies.

One good reason to really care about high standards of respect and civility
is precisely to increase the diversity of our movement. Most of our "open"
discussion channels are not open at all. Full participation in these
channels is in practice quite exclusive. Those who thrive are privileged
persons who can handle an aggressive communication style or even enjoy it.
Wikimedia-l is no exception, and the UCoC thread is a typical example.

More and more contributors are taking action to change this trend, and this
is one of the best things happening right now in our movement.

-- 
Quim Gil (he/him)
Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Peter Southwood]

Lukas, If you could explain exactly what your objection was, it lets all of us 
understand better where the line was drawn. That allows discussion to be 
focused on reality rather than speculation, which could get us closer to an 
acceptable code of conduct, instead of fuelling paranoia.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Lukas Mezger
Sent: 10 September 2020 20:30
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

Hello,

As one of the list subscribers who contacted the list moderators about the
messages in question, please let me second the sentiment that this list
should welcome discourse that is honest and frank while remaining
constructive and civil. Being subscribed to this list can be stressful for
some of us at times, so please keep that in mind when contributing.
Thank you, and kind regards,

Lukas


--

Dr. Lukas Mezger
Vorsitzender des Präsidiums / chair of the Supervisory Board

Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. (030) 219 158 260 – (0151) 268 63 931
http://wikimedia.de

Bleiben Sie auf dem neuesten Stand! Aktuelle Nachrichten und spannende
Geschichten rund um Wikimedia, Wikipedia und Freies Wissen im Newsletter: Zur
Anmeldung <https://www.wikimedia.de/newsletter/>.

Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen
Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
http://spenden.wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207

Am Do., 10. Sept. 2020 um 18:19 Uhr schrieb Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>:

> Is the objection to the words he used or to the way he used them?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Asaf Bartov
> Sent: 09 September 2020 21:57
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
>
> Dear Wikimedians,
>
> List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to
> posts with unacceptable language.
>
> I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list,
> so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
>
>Asaf (volunteer capacity)
>on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> --
> Asaf Bartov 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[effe iets anders]

Hi Lukas,

I appreciate you opening up on this. I have a hard time following the line
of argument. I can appreciate that it can be stressful to see someone
generalize opposition to this extent, and I dont think it is helpful to the
conversation, because it basically rejects all solutions out of hand. I
would have contributed that myself, if others didn't beat me to the punch.
However, that is more due to the content of the opinion, than to how it's
being phrased. I don't see how a different phrasing would have reduced that
stress significantly, other than by packaging it with various phrases that
express appreciation that was not meant.

I would love us to be more gentle, but at the same time it is also
important to recognize diversity in character, expression and opinion. If
we want to take a universal code of conduct seriously, we also need to take
responsibility in restraining ourselves in 'calling the cops' each time
someone tiptoes across the line. I would encourage you to apply the
approach expressed in various ancient texts: if someone crosses the line,
first approach them privately to correct them. If that does not work,
include someone else in this conversation, and if all else fails, bring it
up publicly (or in this case: bring it to the admins). The fact that it is
possible to place someone on moderation, does not mean it is the most
appropriate solution.

But that's just my thoughts.

Lodewijk

On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 11:30 AM Lukas Mezger 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> As one of the list subscribers who contacted the list moderators about the
> messages in question, please let me second the sentiment that this list
> should welcome discourse that is honest and frank while remaining
> constructive and civil. Being subscribed to this list can be stressful for
> some of us at times, so please keep that in mind when contributing.
> Thank you, and kind regards,
>
> Lukas
>
>
> --
>
> Dr. Lukas Mezger
> Vorsitzender des Präsidiums / chair of the Supervisory Board
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> Tel. (030) 219 158 260 – (0151) 268 63 931
> http://wikimedia.de
>
> Bleiben Sie auf dem neuesten Stand! Aktuelle Nachrichten und spannende
> Geschichten rund um Wikimedia, Wikipedia und Freies Wissen im Newsletter:
> Zur
> Anmeldung <https://www.wikimedia.de/newsletter/>.
>
> Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen
> Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
> http://spenden.wikimedia.de
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
> der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
> Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207
>
> Am Do., 10. Sept. 2020 um 18:19 Uhr schrieb Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>:
>
> > Is the objection to the words he used or to the way he used them?
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Asaf Bartov
> > Sent: 09 September 2020 21:57
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
> >
> > Dear Wikimedians,
> >
> > List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to
> > posts with unacceptable language.
> >
> > I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list,
> > so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
> >
> >Asaf (volunteer capacity)
> >on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> > --
> > Asaf Bartov 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > https://www.avg.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubsc

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Aron Manning]

I'd like to thank the list administrators for:
* their transparency in handling this moderation request
* the clarity in describing how to and how not to criticize
* for not banning Dan but patiently giving clear guidelines

While I don't find Dan's language as offensive as to be banworthy, it is a
bit stressful, therefore I appreciate that a clear stance is taken to steer
the discussion towards a more relaxed tone. I also appreciate that it's
made clear it's not the content but the form which is too much. In my
experience such openness is a rare occurrence and serves as an example of
how I hope the UCoC will be handled.

Aron
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Lukas Mezger]

Hello,

As one of the list subscribers who contacted the list moderators about the
messages in question, please let me second the sentiment that this list
should welcome discourse that is honest and frank while remaining
constructive and civil. Being subscribed to this list can be stressful for
some of us at times, so please keep that in mind when contributing.
Thank you, and kind regards,

Lukas


--

Dr. Lukas Mezger
Vorsitzender des Präsidiums / chair of the Supervisory Board

Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. (030) 219 158 260 – (0151) 268 63 931
http://wikimedia.de

Bleiben Sie auf dem neuesten Stand! Aktuelle Nachrichten und spannende
Geschichten rund um Wikimedia, Wikipedia und Freies Wissen im Newsletter: Zur
Anmeldung <https://www.wikimedia.de/newsletter/>.

Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen
Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
http://spenden.wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207

Am Do., 10. Sept. 2020 um 18:19 Uhr schrieb Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>:

> Is the objection to the words he used or to the way he used them?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Asaf Bartov
> Sent: 09 September 2020 21:57
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
>
> Dear Wikimedians,
>
> List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to
> posts with unacceptable language.
>
> I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list,
> so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
>
>Asaf (volunteer capacity)
>on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> --
> Asaf Bartov 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Peter Southwood]

Is the objection to the words he used or to the way he used them?
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf
Of Asaf Bartov
Sent: 09 September 2020 21:57
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

Dear Wikimedians,

List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to
posts with unacceptable language.

I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list,
so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.

   Asaf (volunteer capacity)
   on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
-- 
Asaf Bartov 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com



___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Peter Southwood]

You read my mind...
P

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf
Of Gnangarra
Sent: 10 September 2020 13:50
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

one measure of good judgement would those decline the opportunity to be a
list administrator :D

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 19:41, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Good judgement is often such a subjective thing, Everyone thinks they have
> it. A bit like the Dunning-Kruger effect.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Asaf Bartov
> Sent: 10 September 2020 12:55
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
>
> I would say first and foremost, good judgment. As measured by the person's
> track record on-wiki and on this list.
>
> Preferring to err on the side of caution, people under community
sanctions,
> or who have themselves been moderated for on-list misconduct, need not
> apply.
>
>A.
>
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 12:58 Peter Southwood 
> wrote:
>
> > Asaf,
> > What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list?
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Asaf Bartov
> > Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
> >
> > Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here.  This is why I
> > strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse
> > coincides with criticism of the Foundation.  In this case, we received
> > requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan.  We did so, while
> > underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
> >
> > I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and
> of
> > encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation.  I think
there
> > is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
> >
> > But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same
> > time.  By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence,
> suspicion,
> > whatever, but do it in a civil manner.  Dan can continue to do as well,
> of
> > course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
> >
> > All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of
> > list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time
> to
> > recruit them.  Is anyone interested?
> >
> >A.
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen  wrote:
> >
> > > Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
> > >
> > > It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating
> > > someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may
> > have
> > > been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either
> be
> > > undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF.
> > > That's a substantial conflict of interest.
> > >
> > > Todd
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Wikimedians,
> > > >
> > > > List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due
> to
> > > > posts with unacceptable language.
> > > >
> > > > I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
> > list,
> > > > so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
> > > >
> > > >Asaf (volunteer capacity)
> > > >on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> > > > --
> > > > Asaf Bartov 
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > http

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Gnangarra]

one measure of good judgement would those decline the opportunity to be a
list administrator :D

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 19:41, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Good judgement is often such a subjective thing, Everyone thinks they have
> it. A bit like the Dunning-Kruger effect.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Asaf Bartov
> Sent: 10 September 2020 12:55
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
>
> I would say first and foremost, good judgment. As measured by the person's
> track record on-wiki and on this list.
>
> Preferring to err on the side of caution, people under community sanctions,
> or who have themselves been moderated for on-list misconduct, need not
> apply.
>
>A.
>
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 12:58 Peter Southwood 
> wrote:
>
> > Asaf,
> > What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list?
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Asaf Bartov
> > Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
> >
> > Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here.  This is why I
> > strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse
> > coincides with criticism of the Foundation.  In this case, we received
> > requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan.  We did so, while
> > underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
> >
> > I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and
> of
> > encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation.  I think there
> > is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
> >
> > But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same
> > time.  By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence,
> suspicion,
> > whatever, but do it in a civil manner.  Dan can continue to do as well,
> of
> > course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
> >
> > All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of
> > list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time
> to
> > recruit them.  Is anyone interested?
> >
> >A.
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen  wrote:
> >
> > > Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
> > >
> > > It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating
> > > someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may
> > have
> > > been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either
> be
> > > undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF.
> > > That's a substantial conflict of interest.
> > >
> > > Todd
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Wikimedians,
> > > >
> > > > List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due
> to
> > > > posts with unacceptable language.
> > > >
> > > > I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
> > list,
> > > > so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
> > > >
> > > >Asaf (volunteer capacity)
> > > >on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> > > > --
> > > > Asaf Bartov 
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Peter Southwood]

Good judgement is often such a subjective thing, Everyone thinks they have
it. A bit like the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Cheers, 
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf
Of Asaf Bartov
Sent: 10 September 2020 12:55
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

I would say first and foremost, good judgment. As measured by the person's
track record on-wiki and on this list.

Preferring to err on the side of caution, people under community sanctions,
or who have themselves been moderated for on-list misconduct, need not
apply.

   A.

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 12:58 Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Asaf,
> What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Asaf Bartov
> Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
>
> Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here.  This is why I
> strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse
> coincides with criticism of the Foundation.  In this case, we received
> requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan.  We did so, while
> underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
>
> I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and
of
> encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation.  I think there
> is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
>
> But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same
> time.  By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence,
suspicion,
> whatever, but do it in a civil manner.  Dan can continue to do as well, of
> course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
>
> All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of
> list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time to
> recruit them.  Is anyone interested?
>
>A.
>
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen  wrote:
>
> > Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
> >
> > It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating
> > someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may
> have
> > been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either
be
> > undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF.
> > That's a substantial conflict of interest.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Wikimedians,
> > >
> > > List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due
to
> > > posts with unacceptable language.
> > >
> > > I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
> list,
> > > so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
> > >
> > >Asaf (volunteer capacity)
> > >on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> > > --
> > > Asaf Bartov 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
> --
> Asaf Bartov 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing lis

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Asaf Bartov]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 14:05 Fæ  wrote:

>
> Who are the list mods?


The current list admins are John Vandenberg, Shani Evenstein, and I.

Unfortunately, this is not made clear at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l


That is indeed unfortunate! It *used* to list explicit email addresses of
the admins. I'll see if there's any setting that can be changed.

In line with what you say here, a track record that, say, included
> deliberately misusing administrator or checkuser tools on Wikimedia
> projects, should certainly be considered a trust problem.
>

Agreed.

   A.


> Thanks,
> Fae
>
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 11:56, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
> >
> > I would say first and foremost, good judgment. As measured by the
> person's
> > track record on-wiki and on this list.
> >
> > Preferring to err on the side of caution, people under community
> sanctions,
> > or who have themselves been moderated for on-list misconduct, need not
> > apply.
> >
> >A.
> >
> > On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 12:58 Peter Southwood  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Asaf,
> > > What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list?
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > > Behalf
> > > Of Asaf Bartov
> > > Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
> > >
> > > Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here.  This is why I
> > > strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse
> > > coincides with criticism of the Foundation.  In this case, we received
> > > requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan.  We did so, while
> > > underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
> > >
> > > I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate
> and of
> > > encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation.  I think
> there
> > > is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
> > >
> > > But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same
> > > time.  By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence,
> suspicion,
> > > whatever, but do it in a civil manner.  Dan can continue to do as
> well, of
> > > course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
> > >
> > > All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple
> of
> > > list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is
> time to
> > > recruit them.  Is anyone interested?
> > >
> > >A.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
> > > >
> > > > It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating
> > > > someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement
> may
> > > have
> > > > been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should
> either be
> > > > undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF.
> > > > That's a substantial conflict of interest.
> > > >
> > > > Todd
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Wikimedians,
> > > > >
> > > > > List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation,
> due to
> > > > > posts with unacceptable language.
> > > > >
> > > > > I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
> > > list,
> > > > > so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
> > > > >
> > > > >Asaf (volunteer capacity)
> > > > >on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> > > > > --
> > > > > Asaf Bartov 
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikim

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Fæ]

Hi Asaf,

Who are the list mods? Unfortunately, this is not made clear at
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

In line with what you say here, a track record that, say, included
deliberately misusing administrator or checkuser tools on Wikimedia
projects, should certainly be considered a trust problem.

Thanks,
Fae

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 11:56, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>
> I would say first and foremost, good judgment. As measured by the person's
> track record on-wiki and on this list.
>
> Preferring to err on the side of caution, people under community sanctions,
> or who have themselves been moderated for on-list misconduct, need not
> apply.
>
>A.
>
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 12:58 Peter Southwood 
> wrote:
>
> > Asaf,
> > What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list?
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Asaf Bartov
> > Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
> >
> > Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here.  This is why I
> > strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse
> > coincides with criticism of the Foundation.  In this case, we received
> > requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan.  We did so, while
> > underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
> >
> > I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and of
> > encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation.  I think there
> > is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
> >
> > But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same
> > time.  By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence, suspicion,
> > whatever, but do it in a civil manner.  Dan can continue to do as well, of
> > course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
> >
> > All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of
> > list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time to
> > recruit them.  Is anyone interested?
> >
> >A.
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen  wrote:
> >
> > > Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
> > >
> > > It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating
> > > someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may
> > have
> > > been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be
> > > undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF.
> > > That's a substantial conflict of interest.
> > >
> > > Todd
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Wikimedians,
> > > >
> > > > List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to
> > > > posts with unacceptable language.
> > > >
> > > > I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
> > list,
> > > > so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
> > > >
> > > >Asaf (volunteer capacity)
> > > >on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> > > > --
> > > > Asaf Bartov 
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Asaf Bartov 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guideli

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Asaf Bartov]

I would say first and foremost, good judgment. As measured by the person's
track record on-wiki and on this list.

Preferring to err on the side of caution, people under community sanctions,
or who have themselves been moderated for on-list misconduct, need not
apply.

   A.

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 12:58 Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Asaf,
> What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Asaf Bartov
> Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
>
> Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here.  This is why I
> strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse
> coincides with criticism of the Foundation.  In this case, we received
> requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan.  We did so, while
> underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
>
> I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and of
> encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation.  I think there
> is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
>
> But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same
> time.  By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence, suspicion,
> whatever, but do it in a civil manner.  Dan can continue to do as well, of
> course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
>
> All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of
> list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time to
> recruit them.  Is anyone interested?
>
>A.
>
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen  wrote:
>
> > Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
> >
> > It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating
> > someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may
> have
> > been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be
> > undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF.
> > That's a substantial conflict of interest.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Wikimedians,
> > >
> > > List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to
> > > posts with unacceptable language.
> > >
> > > I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
> list,
> > > so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
> > >
> > >Asaf (volunteer capacity)
> > >on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> > > --
> > > Asaf Bartov 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
> --
> Asaf Bartov 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Peter Southwood]

Asaf,
What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list?
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf
Of Asaf Bartov
Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here.  This is why I
strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse
coincides with criticism of the Foundation.  In this case, we received
requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan.  We did so, while
underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.

I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and of
encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation.  I think there
is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.

But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same
time.  By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence, suspicion,
whatever, but do it in a civil manner.  Dan can continue to do as well, of
course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.

All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of
list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time to
recruit them.  Is anyone interested?

   A.

On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen  wrote:

> Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
>
> It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating
> someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may
have
> been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be
> undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF.
> That's a substantial conflict of interest.
>
> Todd
>
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>
> > Dear Wikimedians,
> >
> > List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to
> > posts with unacceptable language.
> >
> > I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
list,
> > so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
> >
> >Asaf (volunteer capacity)
> >on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> > --
> > Asaf Bartov 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>


-- 
Asaf Bartov 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com



___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Fæ]

I'd be happy to help out. I have set up and managed several lists
related to our Wikimedia LGBT+ community.

As a well-known commentator about the WMF and safe spaces, including
running a global RFC that held to account a WMF board member, it might
add a useful perceived balance to moderation rather than everyone
being "vanilla flavour".

Fae

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 10:08, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>
> Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here.  This is why I
> strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse
> coincides with criticism of the Foundation.  In this case, we received
> requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan.  We did so, while
> underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
>
> I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and of
> encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation.  I think there
> is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
>
> But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same
> time.  By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence, suspicion,
> whatever, but do it in a civil manner.  Dan can continue to do as well, of
> course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
>
> All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of
> list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time to
> recruit them.  Is anyone interested?
>
>A.
>
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen  wrote:
>
> > Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
> >
> > It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating
> > someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may have
> > been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be
> > undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF.
> > That's a substantial conflict of interest.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov  wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Wikimedians,
> > >
> > > List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to
> > > posts with unacceptable language.
> > >
> > > I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list,
> > > so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
> > >
> > >Asaf (volunteer capacity)
> > >on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> > > --
> > > Asaf Bartov 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
>
>
> --
> Asaf Bartov 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Isaac Olatunde]

Hello Asaf

I am a list administrator in at least 5 Wikimedia mailing lists and I
believe I have the relevant experience in this area.

I'd be happy to help out if you need more hands.

Regards

Isaac

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 10:08 Asaf Bartov,  wrote:

> Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here.  This is why I
> strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse
> coincides with criticism of the Foundation.  In this case, we received
> requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan.  We did so, while
> underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
>
> I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and of
> encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation.  I think there
> is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
>
> But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same
> time.  By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence, suspicion,
> whatever, but do it in a civil manner.  Dan can continue to do as well, of
> course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
>
> All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of
> list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time to
> recruit them.  Is anyone interested?
>
>A.
>
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen  wrote:
>
> > Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
> >
> > It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating
> > someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may
> have
> > been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be
> > undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF.
> > That's a substantial conflict of interest.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Wikimedians,
> > >
> > > List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to
> > > posts with unacceptable language.
> > >
> > > I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
> list,
> > > so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
> > >
> > >Asaf (volunteer capacity)
> > >on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> > > --
> > > Asaf Bartov 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
>
>
> --
> Asaf Bartov 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Asaf Bartov]

Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here.  This is why I
strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse
coincides with criticism of the Foundation.  In this case, we received
requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan.  We did so, while
underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.

I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and of
encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation.  I think there
is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.

But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same
time.  By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence, suspicion,
whatever, but do it in a civil manner.  Dan can continue to do as well, of
course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.

All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of
list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time to
recruit them.  Is anyone interested?

   A.

On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen  wrote:

> Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
>
> It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating
> someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may have
> been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be
> undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF.
> That's a substantial conflict of interest.
>
> Todd
>
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>
> > Dear Wikimedians,
> >
> > List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to
> > posts with unacceptable language.
> >
> > I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list,
> > so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
> >
> >Asaf (volunteer capacity)
> >on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> > --
> > Asaf Bartov 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>


-- 
Asaf Bartov 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Peter Southwood]

Is there a record somewhere of what unacceptable language was used and
against what standard it was judged to be unacceptable? 
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf
Of Asaf Bartov
Sent: 09 September 2020 21:57
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

Dear Wikimedians,

List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to
posts with unacceptable language.

I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list,
so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.

   Asaf (volunteer capacity)
   on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
-- 
Asaf Bartov 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com



___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Isaac Olatunde]

Hello Todd,

The notice was sent by Asaf on behalf of the list administrators. That is,
he only communicated the decision of the list administrators and may not
have directly participated in the discussion that resulted in the decision
to moderate Dan.

I am not sure this mailing list administration is part of his JD at the WMF.

AFAIK, he's doing this as a volunteer and not as a WMF's Staffer. The same
way a WMF staffer may be an administrator on Wikimedia projects.

Regards

Isaac

On Wed, 9 Sep 2020, 23:56 Todd Allen,  wrote:

> Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
>
> It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating
> someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may have
> been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be
> undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF.
> That's a substantial conflict of interest.
>
> Todd
>
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>
> > Dear Wikimedians,
> >
> > List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to
> > posts with unacceptable language.
> >
> > I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list,
> > so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
> >
> >Asaf (volunteer capacity)
> >on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> > --
> > Asaf Bartov 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Todd Allen]

Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?

It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating
someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may have
been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be
undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF.
That's a substantial conflict of interest.

Todd

On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> Dear Wikimedians,
>
> List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to
> posts with unacceptable language.
>
> I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list,
> so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
>
>Asaf (volunteer capacity)
>on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
> --
> Asaf Bartov 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

[Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Asaf Bartov]

Dear Wikimedians,

List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to
posts with unacceptable language.

I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list,
so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.

   Asaf (volunteer capacity)
   on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
-- 
Asaf Bartov 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice: Gerard Meijssen

[Nathan]

Asaf,

Thank you for notifying the list. I have read Gerard's posts to this list
since 2007, and it's a safe bet that his thousands of messages make him the
single most prolific contributor to this list since it was created. I
appreciate that the moderators felt compelled to act, but I find the
ultimate result unfortunate. I hope that he will reconsider and make the
needed adjustments in his posts; I know that Gerard is a deeply passionate
member of this community, and a particularly fierce and protective advocate
of Wikidata, and for me at least his perspective will be missed.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 3:22 PM Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> Dear list subscribers,
>
> In my volunteer capacity as list-admin, I write to let you know that
> subscriber Gerard Meijssen has been placed on indefinite moderation after
> making toxic comments to another subscriber, and failing to apologize for
> them after it was pointed out to him.  Gerard had been warned before about
> his aggressive conduct on this mailing list.
>
> As most of you know, being placed in moderation still allows moderated
> people to contribute to the list, but their posts don't go straight to all
> subscribers, but wait for an admin to review and release them, or reject
> them.  They are a compromise between wanting to be inclusive of people who
> are good faith volunteers but who sometimes find it difficult to maintain
> civil discourse on the one hand, and protecting the list's other
> subscribers from unacceptable discourse on the other hand.
>
> However, Gerard chose to unsubscribe himself from the list.  We want to be
> clear that the moderation remains in force, should he choose to
> re-subscribe in the future.
>
> Asaf
> on behalf of the list-admins
> --
> Asaf Bartov 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

[Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice: Gerard Meijssen

[Asaf Bartov]

Dear list subscribers,

In my volunteer capacity as list-admin, I write to let you know that
subscriber Gerard Meijssen has been placed on indefinite moderation after
making toxic comments to another subscriber, and failing to apologize for
them after it was pointed out to him.  Gerard had been warned before about
his aggressive conduct on this mailing list.

As most of you know, being placed in moderation still allows moderated
people to contribute to the list, but their posts don't go straight to all
subscribers, but wait for an admin to review and release them, or reject
them.  They are a compromise between wanting to be inclusive of people who
are good faith volunteers but who sometimes find it difficult to maintain
civil discourse on the one hand, and protecting the list's other
subscribers from unacceptable discourse on the other hand.

However, Gerard chose to unsubscribe himself from the list.  We want to be
clear that the moderation remains in force, should he choose to
re-subscribe in the future.

Asaf
on behalf of the list-admins
-- 
Asaf Bartov 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

[Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Asaf Bartov]

For transparency, note that Gerard Meijssen has been placed on moderation
through Aug 31st, 2017, for repeated thread hijacking.

As with all moderated users, respectful and on-topic messages by him would
be let through to the list.

   A.
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Trillium Corsage]

FYI, and to finish this matter off for the list:

"Not on my watch. I have no access to past conversations so cannot comment on 
the conversation you say you have had with list admins in the past..." says 
Asaf.

I furnished Asaf with verbatim copies of the relevant emails that he may be 
confident it was not merely a "conversations I "say" I have had."

It is accurate though that I erred by recalling that the list moderator 
suggested I was "trolling" when he actually used the word "baiting."

Trillium Corsage

> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 11:20 AM Trillium Corsage 
> wrote:
> 
 As always, he is (and other
 moderated users are) welcome to submit posts to the list before then,
>> and
 if the posts are respectful and on-topic, they would be let through.
>>
>> That has not been my experience. In fact the last time I sent a
>> coherently-explained, completely civil, on-topic,and time-sensitive email
>> to the list, it was held by a moderator who:
>>
>> A) Suggested I was "trolling the WMF" (is trolling an entire
>> 100-person-plus organization even possible?)
>>
>> B) Faulted it on bases including that I used the phrase "couple days"
>> (i.e. "this might take a couple days") rather than his preferred
>> formulation "couple *of* days"
>>
>> C) Put it up for a consensus vote among the other list moderators.
>>
>> I see the list has some new moderators, but I figure odds are this email
>> will be stopped as well.
> 
> Not on my watch. I have no access to past conversations so cannot comment
> on the conversation you say you have had with list admins in the past, but
> I will state for the record that I think grammatical imperfections (real or
> perceived) are absolutely not an acceptable reason to withhold a message
> from the list. The vast majority of subscribers are not native speakers of
> English, and even if they were, language snobbery is an anti-pattern for
> constructive communication.
> 
> Re trolling, I am personally very wary of applying that label, and lean
> toward avoiding it in all but the most extreme cases. Neither a favorable
> opinion of the WIkimedia Foundation, nor a real-world identity, are a
> prerequisite for posting on this list. It is perfectly acceptable and
> on-topic to question or criticize the Wikimedia Foundation on this list, so
> long as one adheres to basic rules of discourse: remaining civil, concise,
> on-topic, and respectful in the face of disagreement; avoiding repetition,
> aggression, and irrelevant hobby-horses; etc.
> 
> A.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Asaf Bartov]

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 11:20 AM Trillium Corsage 
wrote:

> >> As always, he is (and other
> >> moderated users are) welcome to submit posts to the list before then,
> and
> >> if the posts are respectful and on-topic, they would be let through.
>
> That has not been my experience. In fact the last time I sent a
> coherently-explained, completely civil, on-topic,and time-sensitive email
> to the list, it was held by a moderator who:
>
> A) Suggested I was "trolling the WMF" (is trolling an entire
> 100-person-plus organization even possible?)
>
> B) Faulted it on bases including that I used the phrase "couple days"
> (i.e. "this might take a couple days") rather than his preferred
> formulation "couple *of* days"
>
> C) Put it up for a consensus vote among the other list moderators.
>
> I see the list has some new moderators, but I figure odds are this email
> will be stopped as well.
>

Not on my watch.  I have no access to past conversations so cannot comment
on the conversation you say you have had with list admins in the past, but
I will state for the record that I think grammatical imperfections (real or
perceived) are absolutely not an acceptable reason to withhold a message
from the list.  The vast majority of subscribers are not native speakers of
English, and even if they were, language snobbery is an anti-pattern for
constructive communication.

Re trolling, I am personally very wary of applying that label, and lean
toward avoiding it in all but the most extreme cases.  Neither a favorable
opinion of the WIkimedia Foundation, nor a real-world identity, are a
prerequisite for posting on this list.  It is perfectly acceptable and
on-topic to question or criticize the Wikimedia Foundation on this list, so
long as one adheres to basic rules of discourse: remaining civil, concise,
on-topic, and respectful in the face of disagreement; avoiding repetition,
aggression, and irrelevant hobby-horses; etc.

A.
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Asaf Bartov]

As promised, Gerard has been unmoderated, FYI.

   A.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 11:56 AM Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> It's okay that some people disagree with this moderation action (others
> agree, even if they do not say so on-list).  This list is not moderated by
> whole-list-consensus.
>
> I have provided the reason for moderation, without going into details.  To
> do so would be to invite drama, which moderation exists to reduce.  The
> reason is informed by more than one incident, and not necessarily focused
> on cultural differences, as some assumed.
>
> Gerard will be unmoderated on March 1st.  As always, he is (and other
> moderated users are) welcome to submit posts to the list before then, and
> if the posts are respectful and on-topic, they would be let through.
>
>A.
>
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 8:50 AM Rogol Domedonfors 
> wrote:
>
> > There are words in other languages that have a rude, upleasant,
> > disrespectful or pejorative meaning in British English.  For an amusing
> > list of examples, see the Oxford Dictionary blog at
> > http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2016/02/words-that-sound-rude/
> >
> > I presume that I'm entitled to be complain when they are used in email
> list
> > exchanges, even when those exchanges are being conducted primarily in
> those
> > other languages?
> >
> > Returning now to the subject of the thread, I have no problem with
> Gerard's
> > posts, even if I have not always found them easy to understand, and see
> no
> > special reason to restrict his access to this list.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 4:34 PM, Florence Devouard 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Same in French...
> > >
> > >
> > > Le 13/02/2017 à 12:35, John Erling Blad a écrit :
> > >
> > >> It is common to refer to those that cooperated with the Nazis during
> > WWII
> > >> as "kollaboratører" (kollaborators) in Norwegian too.
> > >> https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kollaborat%C3%B8r
> > >>
> > >> Translating between languages are fun! =)
> > >>
> > >> John
> > >>
> > >> 13. feb. 2017 09.08 skrev "Jane Darnell" :
> > >>
> > >> … The only disrespectful
> > >> thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a
> > >> collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are
> > >> "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here
> > >> that
> > >> the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many
> > >> translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that
> spells
> > >> it
> > >> all out:
> > >> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie
> > >> ___
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > >> i/Wikimedia-l
> > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > >> 
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Asaf Bartov]

It's okay that some people disagree with this moderation action (others
agree, even if they do not say so on-list).  This list is not moderated by
whole-list-consensus.

I have provided the reason for moderation, without going into details.  To
do so would be to invite drama, which moderation exists to reduce.  The
reason is informed by more than one incident, and not necessarily focused
on cultural differences, as some assumed.

Gerard will be unmoderated on March 1st.  As always, he is (and other
moderated users are) welcome to submit posts to the list before then, and
if the posts are respectful and on-topic, they would be let through.

   A.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 8:50 AM Rogol Domedonfors 
wrote:

> There are words in other languages that have a rude, upleasant,
> disrespectful or pejorative meaning in British English.  For an amusing
> list of examples, see the Oxford Dictionary blog at
> http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2016/02/words-that-sound-rude/
>
> I presume that I'm entitled to be complain when they are used in email list
> exchanges, even when those exchanges are being conducted primarily in those
> other languages?
>
> Returning now to the subject of the thread, I have no problem with Gerard's
> posts, even if I have not always found them easy to understand, and see no
> special reason to restrict his access to this list.
>
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 4:34 PM, Florence Devouard 
> wrote:
>
> > Same in French...
> >
> >
> > Le 13/02/2017 à 12:35, John Erling Blad a écrit :
> >
> >> It is common to refer to those that cooperated with the Nazis during
> WWII
> >> as "kollaboratører" (kollaborators) in Norwegian too.
> >> https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kollaborat%C3%B8r
> >>
> >> Translating between languages are fun! =)
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >> 13. feb. 2017 09.08 skrev "Jane Darnell" :
> >>
> >> … The only disrespectful
> >> thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a
> >> collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are
> >> "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here
> >> that
> >> the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many
> >> translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells
> >> it
> >> all out:
> >> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie
> >> ___
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> >> i/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> 
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Rogol Domedonfors]

There are words in other languages that have a rude, upleasant,
disrespectful or pejorative meaning in British English.  For an amusing
list of examples, see the Oxford Dictionary blog at
http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2016/02/words-that-sound-rude/

I presume that I'm entitled to be complain when they are used in email list
exchanges, even when those exchanges are being conducted primarily in those
other languages?

Returning now to the subject of the thread, I have no problem with Gerard's
posts, even if I have not always found them easy to understand, and see no
special reason to restrict his access to this list.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 4:34 PM, Florence Devouard 
wrote:

> Same in French...
>
>
> Le 13/02/2017 à 12:35, John Erling Blad a écrit :
>
>> It is common to refer to those that cooperated with the Nazis during WWII
>> as "kollaboratører" (kollaborators) in Norwegian too.
>> https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kollaborat%C3%B8r
>>
>> Translating between languages are fun! =)
>>
>> John
>>
>> 13. feb. 2017 09.08 skrev "Jane Darnell" :
>>
>> … The only disrespectful
>> thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a
>> collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are
>> "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here
>> that
>> the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many
>> translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells
>> it
>> all out:
>> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> 
>>
>>
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Florence Devouard]

Same in French...

Le 13/02/2017 à 12:35, John Erling Blad a écrit :

It is common to refer to those that cooperated with the Nazis during WWII
as "kollaboratører" (kollaborators) in Norwegian too.
https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kollaborat%C3%B8r

Translating between languages are fun! =)

John

13. feb. 2017 09.08 skrev "Jane Darnell" :

… The only disrespectful
thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a
collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are
"nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here that
the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many
translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells it
all out:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 






___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[John Erling Blad]

It is common to refer to those that cooperated with the Nazis during WWII
as "kollaboratører" (kollaborators) in Norwegian too.
https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kollaborat%C3%B8r

Translating between languages are fun! =)

John

13. feb. 2017 09.08 skrev "Jane Darnell" :

… The only disrespectful
thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a
collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are
"nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here that
the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many
translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells it
all out:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Jane Darnell]

Believe me, I hear you!

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Austin Hair  wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 8:01 AM, Jane Darnell  wrote:
> > When I first read this I didn't think twice about it, because Gerard has
> > often gone over the 30 message limit, so nothing new. But after reading
> > later comments I see that he was disrespectful? I don't think so. I
> checked
> > and indeed he didn't go over his limit in January. The only disrespectful
> > thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a
> > collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are
> > "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here
> that
> > the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many
> > translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells
> it
> > all out:
> > https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie
> > It's little things like this that make adding English-language Tech news
> to
> > the Dutch Village pump a bit controversial btw.
>
> Thanks for the note, Jane. Everyone should keep cultural differences
> in mind--it's a source of strife on this list, to be sure, to say
> nothing of my marriage, and I suppose the entire Internet.
>
> Austin
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Romaine Wiki]

Calling that anyone who does not want a banner = someone who does not care
for our colleagues, is very very disrespectful.

That is way beyond the line of what can be accepted.

Romaine


Op maandag 13 februari 2017 heeft Jane Darnell  het
volgende geschreven:

> When I first read this I didn't think twice about it, because Gerard has
> often gone over the 30 message limit, so nothing new. But after reading
> later comments I see that he was disrespectful? I don't think so. I checked
> and indeed he didn't go over his limit in January. The only disrespectful
> thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a
> collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are
> "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here that
> the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many
> translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells it
> all out:
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie
> It's little things like this that make adding English-language Tech news to
> the Dutch Village pump a bit controversial btw.
>
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Asaf Bartov  > wrote:
>
> > Hello, everyone.
> >
> > I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
> >
> > I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation.  He has been posting
> very
> > frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30
> > posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
> >
> > I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list.
> > He will be unmoderated next month.
> >
> >A.
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Austin Hair]

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 8:01 AM, Jane Darnell  wrote:
> When I first read this I didn't think twice about it, because Gerard has
> often gone over the 30 message limit, so nothing new. But after reading
> later comments I see that he was disrespectful? I don't think so. I checked
> and indeed he didn't go over his limit in January. The only disrespectful
> thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a
> collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are
> "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here that
> the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many
> translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells it
> all out:
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie
> It's little things like this that make adding English-language Tech news to
> the Dutch Village pump a bit controversial btw.

Thanks for the note, Jane. Everyone should keep cultural differences
in mind--it's a source of strife on this list, to be sure, to say
nothing of my marriage, and I suppose the entire Internet.

Austin

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Jane Darnell]

When I first read this I didn't think twice about it, because Gerard has
often gone over the 30 message limit, so nothing new. But after reading
later comments I see that he was disrespectful? I don't think so. I checked
and indeed he didn't go over his limit in January. The only disrespectful
thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a
collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are
"nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here that
the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many
translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells it
all out:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie
It's little things like this that make adding English-language Tech news to
the Dutch Village pump a bit controversial btw.

On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> Hello, everyone.
>
> I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
>
> I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation.  He has been posting very
> frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30
> posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
>
> I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list.
> He will be unmoderated next month.
>
>A.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Andy Mabbett]

On 11 February 2017 at 21:18, Michael Peel  wrote:
>> asaf, you are one of the most respected dinosaurs in this universe,

> Which species of dinosaur?

Wikisourus, of course.


-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Michael Peel]

> On 11 Feb 2017, at 19:08, rupert THURNER  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>> Hello, everyone.
>> 
>> I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
>> 
>> I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation.  He has been posting very
>> frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30
>> posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
>> 
>> I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list.
>> He will be unmoderated next month.
> 
> asaf, you are one of the most respected dinosaurs in this universe,
> and you need to use moderation instead of a private word? i have a
> hard time believing my eyes.

Which species of dinosaur?

This seems like a standard moderator action, based on the long-term notices 
that have been sent around to the list over the last few years. I like the 
extra on-list transparency here (please keep it up!), and would like to thank 
Asaf for taking on this extra duty.

Thanks,
Mike


___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[rupert THURNER]

On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
> Hello, everyone.
>
> I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
>
> I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation.  He has been posting very
> frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30
> posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
>
> I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list.
> He will be unmoderated next month.

asaf, you are one of the most respected dinosaurs in this universe,
and you need to use moderation instead of a private word? i have a
hard time believing my eyes.

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Peter Southwood]

In the interests of clarity, does the soft limit apply by calendar month?
I don’t think Gerard is disrespectful so much as brusque in his communication 
style. Perhaps this is due to communicating in what is for him a foreign 
language.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Asaf Bartov
Sent: Saturday, 11 February 2017 8:49 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

Hello, everyone.

I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:

I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation.  He has been posting very 
frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30 posts 
per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.

I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list.
He will be unmoderated next month.

   A.
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4756/13931 - Release Date: 02/11/17


___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[John Erling Blad]

Gerard, ... he has good points too, even if he is stubborn like a mule -
like the rest og us! ;)

11. feb. 2017 19.49 skrev "Asaf Bartov" :

> Hello, everyone.
>
> I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
>
> I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation.  He has been posting very
> frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30
> posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
>
> I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list.
> He will be unmoderated next month.
>
>A.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

[Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

[Asaf Bartov]

Hello, everyone.

I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:

I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation.  He has been posting very
frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30
posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.

I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list.
He will be unmoderated next month.

   A.
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,