Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Fæ]

Reminder! If you want to express your opinion in the English Wikipedia
Request for Comment on whether to adopt gender neutral language in
Wikipedia policies (but not articles or discussion pages), this is due
to be *closed this weekend* having reached 30 days for votes and
discussion.
Shortcut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
Full link: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/RfC_to_adopt_a_default_gender_neutral_style_for_policy,_guidelines_and_help_pages

The tally is currently 80 support votes versus 61 oppose votes. That's
57.6% support. A non-controversial "supermajority", as used in some
past RfCs, would require over 60% support.

As a taster, here are 3 sample views expressed for support and oppose,
it's worth browsing through the RfC discussion section to get a feel
for the arguments raised and balance of evidence:

Support "I have no issues with this being done. Assuming proper
grammar is maintained, I think that this can probably be done without
an RfC. Though perhaps the opposition here proves otherwise."

Support "It does not affect others but helps those, who do not use he
or she as pronouns. Using they is also shorter than writing he or
she."

Support "I support the use of gender-neutral language in order to make
everyone feel welcome here at Wikipedia."

Oppose "I do not support altering our text to the proposed doublethink
new-language at the behest of a small minority of non-conformers who
perceive micro-aggressions from standard wording."

Oppose "I am a person, not an object. I was born a man, I will die a
man, and I demand to be referred to in a gender supportive language.
Don't force you preference for gender neutrality on the rest of us
through policy initiatives, otherwise it ceases to be neutrality and
becomes fascist in nature."

Oppose "A bridge too far, heavyhanded and unnecessary. Sure I'd be on
board with suggesting that generic "he" be replaced with singular
"they" or "he or she" or whatever. But, no, even "he or she" is
considered hostile. Sorry, I consider this an egregious case of
special pleading and first-world-problemism. How about instead lets
worry about how we are unwelcoming to women. That's a lot bigger
problem."

To see who said what, go to the RfC. :-)

Thanks,
Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

On 7 April 2017 at 22:51, Fæ  wrote:
> An English Wikipedia gender neutral policy, similar to the one
> developed for Commons, is now under "lively" discussion in a Requests
> for Comment started this afternoon. You can read the proposed policy
> and join in by adding your viewpoint at:
> Shortcut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
> Full link: 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/RfC_to_adopt_a_default_gender_neutral_style_for_policy,_guidelines_and_help_pages
>
> Some of the comments may be upsetting for some readers. I've actually
> been a bit surprised. If it's too much drama for you, go focus on
> something more fun.
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>
> On 5 April 2017 at 11:44, Fæ  wrote:
>> * 
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> One of the outcomes from my weekend at the Wikimedia Conference in
>> Berlin, was that the various discussions over /feeling/ more welcoming
>> in our language presumptions for non-male contributors made me think
>> about taking some practical steps on my home project. Commons is lucky
>> that having a standard policy language of English makes it easier to
>> use neutral gender in policy statements. I'm taking that further by
>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. I'm hoping
>> that the outcome will feel like a much more natural space for people
>> like me that prefer to stay gender neutral, possibly give a slightly
>> safer feeling to the project by the very act of making the effort, as
>> well as avoiding an over-emphasis on binary gender when it's pretty
>> easy to simply avoid it.
>>
>> Comments are welcome on the specific proposal, or you may have ideas
>> for other local projects to do something similar. I'm aware that this
>> is much more difficult to make progress on in languages such as German
>> or Spanish that have a presumption of male/female gender within their
>> vocabulary, so any cases of on-project initiatives in non-English
>> would be especially interesting. Solving these challenges is an
>> opportunity to make our projects a leader on gender neutrality...
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Natacha Rault]

Dear Antoine, it is solvable in French and there are some very good practice 
manual online here is one from Switzerland 
https://www.unige.ch/rectorat/egalite/files/9414/0353/2732/charte_epicene_Chancelerie_guide_formulation_non_sexiste.pdf
 
.
 

You might all appreciate an English review of these themes from an academic 
perspective : http://www.fairlanguage.org/medias 


The form you cite underneath "Un/une adminstra-teur-trice » would never be 
used. One would rather write "un administrateur ou une administratrice » in 
this case. 

Kind regards,

Nattes à chat

> Le 6 avr. 2017 à 13:30, Antoine Musso  a écrit :
> 
> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
>> I'm taking that further by
>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. 
> 
> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ
> which roughly looks like:
> 
> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
> 
> With the proposal to instead:
> 
> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
> 
> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can
> instead write:
> 
> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
> 
> 
> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages.
> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
> 
> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
> What some are advocating is using:
> 
>  Un/une photographe
> 
> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
> 
> Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
> 
> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most
> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
> 
> 
> -- 
> Antoine "hashar" Musso
> 
> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Natacha Rault]

Hi Florence
Just a small remark : actually the message that was used in the end on the site 
notice is gender neutral, and was acceptable for all. There is sometimes a way 
out of the binary gendering in French, « nous" for example has no attributed 
gender. Using wikimedien·ne·s does not include people who do not want to be 
affiliated to any gender at all (we say a-genre in French, but I dont know the 
word in english). 
I take an example: instead of saying « lecteurs et lectrices », one can say « 
le lectorat » and nobody would even notice (even the persons opposed to the 
feminization of titles). Now here there was a big debate on Theresa May’s 
 page, and in the end one can read 
now « première ministre » which is probably one of the first time the community 
voted in this direction (with lots and lots go heated debates).
The French community is not as irrational about neutral gender as it used to 
be, that’s for sure. 
So I would not be as pessimist as you are actually, the French community is not 
used to using gender neutral language but there are examples of it. See for 
example there for the next Wikiconvention  
where the 
term « participant·e·s » shows up in the first page…
Kind regards, 
Nattes à chat



> Le 7 avr. 2017 à 21:58, Florence Devouard  a écrit :
> 
> A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to change 
> the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the 
> month of Francophonie.
> 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
> 
> The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral 
> terminology.
> 
> "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral "les 
> Wikimédiens".
> 
> That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the term by 
> "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
> 
> Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender 
> neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives 
> (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
> 
> Florence
> 
> 
> 
> Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
>> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
>> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
>> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
>> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
>> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for
>> journalists writing in English.[1]
>> 
>> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know
>> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions.
>> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm
>> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our
>> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
>> 
>> Links
>> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
>> 
>> Thanks
>> Fae
>> Wikimedia LGBT+
>> 
>> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso  wrote:
>>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
  I'm taking that further by
 proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
 help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
 she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
>>> 
>>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
>>> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ
>>> which roughly looks like:
>>> 
>>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
>>> 
>>> With the proposal to instead:
>>> 
>>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
>>> 
>>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
>>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can
>>> instead write:
>>> 
>>> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages.
>>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
>>> 
>>> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
>>> What some are advocating is using:
>>> 
>>>   Un/une photographe
>>> 
>>> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
>>> 
>>>  Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
>>> 
>>> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most
>>> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Subhashish Panigrahi]

The Odia-language itself is gender neutral though we have some
gender-specific pronouns. So we never worried about these issues. :)

Subhashish

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:29 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

> Mmmm, the Hebrew Wikipedia has been gender-neutral for at least eight years
> :)
>
> So Commons is not exactly the first project to do this.
>
>
> בתאריך 12 באפר׳ 2017 10:14 AM,‏ "Fæ"  כתב:
>
> I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/
> project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its
> policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming
> environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the
> discussions and vote!
>
> * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_
> neutral_language
> *
>
> The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group
> taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all
> the creative discussions that go on when so many international
> Wikimedians get together.
>
> If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively'
> Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies,
> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
>
> Thanks
> Fae
> Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
> https://telegram.me/wmlgbt
>
> On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra  wrote:
> > I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
> >
> >>
> >> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
> >> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
> (if
> >> it ever will be)
> >
> >
> > I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use
> of
> > neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one
> of
> > the key pillars of the community.  We can and must do better to ensure
> that
> > everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
> >
> > If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual
> > then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can
> > best express our neutral position
> >
> > On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ  wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on
> >> the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the
> >> general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
> >>
> >> "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but
> >> in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the
> >> French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have
> >> the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is
> >> the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I
> >> would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for
> >> all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non
> >> violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the
> >> French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk
> >> / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults
> >> and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
> >>
> >> It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying
> >> respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise,
> >> and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern
> >> language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting,
> >> keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can,
> >> even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
> >>
> >> The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last
> >> week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German
> >> Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment
> >> yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do
> >> include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a
> >> disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that
> >> even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful
> >> comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our
> >> civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
> >>
> >> P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using
> >> Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening
> >> for yahoo addresses to this list.
> >>
> >> Links
> >> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
> >> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages
> >> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
> >> 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Fae
> >>
> >> On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard  wrote:
> >> > A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
> >> > change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
> >> > participation to the month of Franco

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Amir E. Aharoni]

Mmmm, the Hebrew Wikipedia has been gender-neutral for at least eight years
:)

So Commons is not exactly the first project to do this.


בתאריך 12 באפר׳ 2017 10:14 AM,‏ "Fæ"  כתב:

I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/
project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its
policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming
environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the
discussions and vote!

* https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_neutral_language
*

The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group
taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all
the creative discussions that go on when so many international
Wikimedians get together.

If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively'
Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies,
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL

Thanks
Fae
Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
https://telegram.me/wmlgbt

On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra  wrote:
> I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
>
>>
>> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
>> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
(if
>> it ever will be)
>
>
> I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use of
> neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one of
> the key pillars of the community.  We can and must do better to ensure
that
> everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
>
> If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual
> then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can
> best express our neutral position
>
> On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ  wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on
>> the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the
>> general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
>>
>> "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but
>> in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the
>> French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have
>> the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is
>> the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I
>> would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for
>> all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non
>> violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the
>> French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk
>> / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults
>> and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
>>
>> It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying
>> respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise,
>> and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern
>> language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting,
>> keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can,
>> even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
>>
>> The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last
>> week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German
>> Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment
>> yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do
>> include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a
>> disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that
>> even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful
>> comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our
>> civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
>>
>> P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using
>> Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening
>> for yahoo addresses to this list.
>>
>> Links
>> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
>> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages
>> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
>> 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Fae
>>
>> On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard  wrote:
>> > A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
>> > change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
>> > participation to the month of Francophonie.
>> >
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:
>> Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
>> >
>> > The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral
>> > terminology.
>> >
>> > "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
>> "les
>> > Wikimédiens".
>> >
>> > That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
>> term by
>> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[James Heilman]

Excellent to see. Thanks Fae and agree this is an important initiative.

James

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:13 AM, Fæ  wrote:

> I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/
> project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its
> policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming
> environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the
> discussions and vote!
>
> * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_
> neutral_language *
>
> The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group
> taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all
> the creative discussions that go on when so many international
> Wikimedians get together.
>
> If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively'
> Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies,
> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
>
> Thanks
> Fae
> Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
> https://telegram.me/wmlgbt
>
> On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra  wrote:
> > I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
> >
> >>
> >> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
> >> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
> (if
> >> it ever will be)
> >
> >
> > I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use
> of
> > neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one
> of
> > the key pillars of the community.  We can and must do better to ensure
> that
> > everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
> >
> > If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual
> > then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can
> > best express our neutral position
> >
> > On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ  wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on
> >> the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the
> >> general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
> >>
> >> "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but
> >> in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the
> >> French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have
> >> the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is
> >> the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I
> >> would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for
> >> all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non
> >> violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the
> >> French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk
> >> / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults
> >> and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
> >>
> >> It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying
> >> respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise,
> >> and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern
> >> language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting,
> >> keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can,
> >> even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
> >>
> >> The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last
> >> week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German
> >> Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment
> >> yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do
> >> include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a
> >> disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that
> >> even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful
> >> comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our
> >> civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
> >>
> >> P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using
> >> Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening
> >> for yahoo addresses to this list.
> >>
> >> Links
> >> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
> >> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages
> >> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
> >> 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Fae
> >>
> >> On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard  wrote:
> >> > A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
> >> > change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
> >> > participation to the month of Francophonie.
> >> >
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:
> >> Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
> >> >
> >> > The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral
> >> > terminology.
> >> >
> >> > "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more tr

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Fæ]

I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/
project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its
policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming
environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the
discussions and vote!

* https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_neutral_language *

The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group
taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all
the creative discussions that go on when so many international
Wikimedians get together.

If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively'
Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies,
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL

Thanks
Fae
Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
https://telegram.me/wmlgbt

On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra  wrote:
> I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
>
>>
>> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
>> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if
>> it ever will be)
>
>
> I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use of
> neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one of
> the key pillars of the community.  We can and must do better to ensure that
> everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
>
> If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual
> then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can
> best express our neutral position
>
> On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ  wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on
>> the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the
>> general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
>>
>> "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but
>> in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the
>> French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have
>> the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is
>> the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I
>> would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for
>> all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non
>> violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the
>> French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk
>> / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults
>> and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
>>
>> It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying
>> respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise,
>> and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern
>> language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting,
>> keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can,
>> even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
>>
>> The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last
>> week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German
>> Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment
>> yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do
>> include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a
>> disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that
>> even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful
>> comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our
>> civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
>>
>> P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using
>> Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening
>> for yahoo addresses to this list.
>>
>> Links
>> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
>> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages
>> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
>> 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Fae
>>
>> On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard  wrote:
>> > A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
>> > change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
>> > participation to the month of Francophonie.
>> >
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:
>> Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
>> >
>> > The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral
>> > terminology.
>> >
>> > "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
>> "les
>> > Wikimédiens".
>> >
>> > That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
>> term by
>> > "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
>> >
>> > Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender
>> > neutral specific language accross the francophones projects

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Gnangarra]

I beg to differ with Anders final comment;

> ​
> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if
> it ever will be)​


​I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use of
neutral language ​that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one of
the key pillars of the community.  We can and must do better to ensure that
everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.

If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual
then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can
best express our neutral position

On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ  wrote:

> Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on
> the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the
> general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
>
> "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but
> in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the
> French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have
> the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is
> the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I
> would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for
> all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non
> violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the
> French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk
> / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults
> and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
>
> It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying
> respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise,
> and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern
> language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting,
> keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can,
> even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
>
> The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last
> week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German
> Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment
> yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do
> include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a
> disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that
> even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful
> comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our
> civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
>
> P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using
> Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening
> for yahoo addresses to this list.
>
> Links
> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages
> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
> 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
>
> On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard  wrote:
> > A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
> > change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
> > participation to the month of Francophonie.
> >
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:
> Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
> >
> > The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral
> > terminology.
> >
> > "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
> "les
> > Wikimédiens".
> >
> > That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
> term by
> > "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
> >
> > Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender
> > neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives
> > (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
> >
> > Florence
> >
> >
> >
> > Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
> >>
> >> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
> >> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
> >> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
> >> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
> >> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for
> >> journalists writing in English.[1]
> >>
> >> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know
> >> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions.
> >> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm
> >> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our
> >> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
> >>
> >> Links
> >> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
> >>
> >> T

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Fæ]

Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on
the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the
general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]

"* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but
in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the
French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have
the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is
the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I
would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for
all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non
violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the
French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk
/ user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults
and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"

It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying
respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise,
and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern
language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting,
keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can,
even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!

The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last
week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German
Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment
yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do
include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a
disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that
even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful
comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our
civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]

P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using
Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening
for yahoo addresses to this list.

Links
1. 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use

Thanks,
Fae

On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard  wrote:
> A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
> change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
> participation to the month of Francophonie.
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
>
> The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral
> terminology.
>
> "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral "les
> Wikimédiens".
>
> That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the term by
> "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
>
> Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender
> neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives
> (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
>
> Florence
>
>
>
> Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
>>
>> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
>> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
>> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
>> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
>> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for
>> journalists writing in English.[1]
>>
>> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know
>> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions.
>> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm
>> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our
>> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
>>
>> Links
>> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
>>
>> Thanks
>> Fae
>> Wikimedia LGBT+
>>
>> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso  wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :

   I'm taking that further by
 proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
 help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
 she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
>>>
>>>
>>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
>>> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ
>>> which roughly looks like:
>>>
>>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
>>>
>>> With the proposal to instead:
>>>
>>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
>>>
>>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
>>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Florence Devouard]

A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to 
change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for 
participation to the month of Francophonie.


https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259

The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral 
terminology.


"les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral 
"les Wikimédiens".


That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the 
term by "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.


Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender 
neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. 
Alternatives (such as the "we") are possible but not always.


Florence



Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :

Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for
journalists writing in English.[1]

Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know
what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions.
However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm
hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our
fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)

Links
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

Thanks
Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+

On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso  wrote:

Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :

  I'm taking that further by
proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.


As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ
which roughly looks like:

A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.

With the proposal to instead:

A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.

Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can
instead write:

A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.


That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages.
For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.

In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
What some are advocating is using:

   Un/une photographe

If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':

  Un/une adminstra-teur-trice

That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most
probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).


--
Antoine "hashar" Musso






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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Fæ]

An English Wikipedia gender neutral policy, similar to the one
developed for Commons, is now under "lively" discussion in a Requests
for Comment started this afternoon. You can read the proposed policy
and join in by adding your viewpoint at:
Shortcut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
Full link: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/RfC_to_adopt_a_default_gender_neutral_style_for_policy,_guidelines_and_help_pages

Some of the comments may be upsetting for some readers. I've actually
been a bit surprised. If it's too much drama for you, go focus on
something more fun.

Thanks,
Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

On 5 April 2017 at 11:44, Fæ  wrote:
> * 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace
>
> Hi,
>
> One of the outcomes from my weekend at the Wikimedia Conference in
> Berlin, was that the various discussions over /feeling/ more welcoming
> in our language presumptions for non-male contributors made me think
> about taking some practical steps on my home project. Commons is lucky
> that having a standard policy language of English makes it easier to
> use neutral gender in policy statements. I'm taking that further by
> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. I'm hoping
> that the outcome will feel like a much more natural space for people
> like me that prefer to stay gender neutral, possibly give a slightly
> safer feeling to the project by the very act of making the effort, as
> well as avoiding an over-emphasis on binary gender when it's pretty
> easy to simply avoid it.
>
> Comments are welcome on the specific proposal, or you may have ideas
> for other local projects to do something similar. I'm aware that this
> is much more difficult to make progress on in languages such as German
> or Spanish that have a presumption of male/female gender within their
> vocabulary, so any cases of on-project initiatives in non-English
> would be especially interesting. Solving these challenges is an
> opportunity to make our projects a leader on gender neutrality...
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Fæ]

Hi John,

Thanks for highlighting this point. The gender neutral policies we are
putting in place simply ensure that our policy, guidelines and help
pages use gender neutral language where reasonable to do so. These
policies do not apply to what our users write on discussion pages when
referring to themselves. So, nobody is intending to start messing with
how users address other users... within the limits of our civility
policies of course! :-)

A point raised earlier is that it would be great for us to start
thinking about whether the MediaWiki software should be improved to
allow users to define their preferred pronoun, so when our systems
leave automated messages, they are written to the user's preference,
including non-binary terms (like 'hen' in Swedish) rather than
"unspecified". This has been discussed, see
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T29744 as an example, but would
probably need a larger community consensus, in fact a local consensus
in each language, to move forward.

Thanks,
Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT

On 7 April 2017 at 10:27, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> The focus should not be what some users want to call other users, but on
> what users want to call themselves.
>
> " I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities
> feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we
> are not standing still."
>
> Then I think you should reconsider. Users will leave if you start messing
> with how they address other users.
>
> On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Fæ  wrote:
>
>> On 7 April 2017 at 06:39, Anders Wennersten 
>> wrote:
>> ...
>> > So when it comes to how we use them in documents related to WIkipedia,
>> is to
>> > not use any of them. It is a little bit more complicated but it is quite
>> > possible. "The person who takes a photo should" etc
>> >
>> > And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
>> > introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
>> (if
>> > it ever will be)
>> >
>> > Anders
>>
>> Thanks for the 'hen' example. The new policy on Wikimedia Commons[1]
>> for gender neutral language has precisely the Swedish Wikipedia
>> working solution as the best solution, i.e. to avoid unnecessary
>> gendered pronouns where /reasonable/. For policies in English at
>> least, that actually turns out to be almost all the time.
>>
>> It sounds like capturing what you currently do, can easily become your
>> local gender neutral policy. It may not be perfect, but it would be a
>> focus for discussion and by having these visible steps to attempt to
>> address the issue, those most affected will feel acknowledged rather
>> than dismissed.
>>
>> Many of us have been contributing to the Wikimedia Foundation's
>> strategy consultation, thinking of what our projects might become in
>> 15 years. When you look that far ahead, it seems possible to plan for
>> these changes happening, including seeing a few "leftist/feminist"
>> possibilities like the Swedish 'hen' becoming mainstream.
>>
>> When I was a teenager, the word "gay" for a homosexual went from a gay
>> community word to mainstream on the television, something I remember
>> my Mother being critical about, "it used to be such a nice happy word
>> before this", not a good environment to come out as gay! A decade
>> later the more acceptable and correct word "transgender" gradually
>> replaced our usage of "transexual" and right now "genderqueer" is
>> becoming a popular word to apply, it's even on Wikidata :-). However,
>> in a more connected world, neologisms appear and become accepted
>> faster, and 15 years feels like a long view for these changes.
>>
>> Seeing /some/ of our mainstream projects taking action to adopt gender
>> neutral terms, even if only at policy level, will encourage other
>> websites to do the same. Rather than a political act, I see continuing
>> to talk about it, and not giving up on trying to adapt and improve our
>> approach where reasonable to do so, simply a way of striving to our
>> goal of feeling like a welcome environment for everyone to read and
>> everyone to edit. I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities
>> feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we
>> are not standing still. :-)
>>
>> Links:
>> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_
>> neutral_language
>>
>> Thanks
>> Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[John Erling Blad]

The focus should not be what some users want to call other users, but on
what users want to call themselves.

" I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities
feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we
are not standing still."

Then I think you should reconsider. Users will leave if you start messing
with how they address other users.

On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Fæ  wrote:

> On 7 April 2017 at 06:39, Anders Wennersten 
> wrote:
> ...
> > So when it comes to how we use them in documents related to WIkipedia,
> is to
> > not use any of them. It is a little bit more complicated but it is quite
> > possible. "The person who takes a photo should" etc
> >
> > And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
> > introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
> (if
> > it ever will be)
> >
> > Anders
>
> Thanks for the 'hen' example. The new policy on Wikimedia Commons[1]
> for gender neutral language has precisely the Swedish Wikipedia
> working solution as the best solution, i.e. to avoid unnecessary
> gendered pronouns where /reasonable/. For policies in English at
> least, that actually turns out to be almost all the time.
>
> It sounds like capturing what you currently do, can easily become your
> local gender neutral policy. It may not be perfect, but it would be a
> focus for discussion and by having these visible steps to attempt to
> address the issue, those most affected will feel acknowledged rather
> than dismissed.
>
> Many of us have been contributing to the Wikimedia Foundation's
> strategy consultation, thinking of what our projects might become in
> 15 years. When you look that far ahead, it seems possible to plan for
> these changes happening, including seeing a few "leftist/feminist"
> possibilities like the Swedish 'hen' becoming mainstream.
>
> When I was a teenager, the word "gay" for a homosexual went from a gay
> community word to mainstream on the television, something I remember
> my Mother being critical about, "it used to be such a nice happy word
> before this", not a good environment to come out as gay! A decade
> later the more acceptable and correct word "transgender" gradually
> replaced our usage of "transexual" and right now "genderqueer" is
> becoming a popular word to apply, it's even on Wikidata :-). However,
> in a more connected world, neologisms appear and become accepted
> faster, and 15 years feels like a long view for these changes.
>
> Seeing /some/ of our mainstream projects taking action to adopt gender
> neutral terms, even if only at policy level, will encourage other
> websites to do the same. Rather than a political act, I see continuing
> to talk about it, and not giving up on trying to adapt and improve our
> approach where reasonable to do so, simply a way of striving to our
> goal of feeling like a welcome environment for everyone to read and
> everyone to edit. I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities
> feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we
> are not standing still. :-)
>
> Links:
> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_
> neutral_language
>
> Thanks
> Fae
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Fæ]

On 7 April 2017 at 06:39, Anders Wennersten  wrote:
...
> So when it comes to how we use them in documents related to WIkipedia, is to
> not use any of them. It is a little bit more complicated but it is quite
> possible. "The person who takes a photo should" etc
>
> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if
> it ever will be)
>
> Anders

Thanks for the 'hen' example. The new policy on Wikimedia Commons[1]
for gender neutral language has precisely the Swedish Wikipedia
working solution as the best solution, i.e. to avoid unnecessary
gendered pronouns where /reasonable/. For policies in English at
least, that actually turns out to be almost all the time.

It sounds like capturing what you currently do, can easily become your
local gender neutral policy. It may not be perfect, but it would be a
focus for discussion and by having these visible steps to attempt to
address the issue, those most affected will feel acknowledged rather
than dismissed.

Many of us have been contributing to the Wikimedia Foundation's
strategy consultation, thinking of what our projects might become in
15 years. When you look that far ahead, it seems possible to plan for
these changes happening, including seeing a few "leftist/feminist"
possibilities like the Swedish 'hen' becoming mainstream.

When I was a teenager, the word "gay" for a homosexual went from a gay
community word to mainstream on the television, something I remember
my Mother being critical about, "it used to be such a nice happy word
before this", not a good environment to come out as gay! A decade
later the more acceptable and correct word "transgender" gradually
replaced our usage of "transexual" and right now "genderqueer" is
becoming a popular word to apply, it's even on Wikidata :-). However,
in a more connected world, neologisms appear and become accepted
faster, and 15 years feels like a long view for these changes.

Seeing /some/ of our mainstream projects taking action to adopt gender
neutral terms, even if only at policy level, will encourage other
websites to do the same. Rather than a political act, I see continuing
to talk about it, and not giving up on trying to adapt and improve our
approach where reasonable to do so, simply a way of striving to our
goal of feeling like a welcome environment for everyone to read and
everyone to edit. I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities
feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we
are not standing still. :-)

Links:
1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_neutral_language

Thanks
Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Anders Wennersten]

This basic issue has for many years been a "hot" issue in Sweden.

And the use of the words "han" (he/his) and "hon" (she/her) has become a 
minefield.  And to use "him and her" to mean all type of persons is just 
not acceptable (what about all who want to use other attributes to 
define themselves).


And a new word has been created "hen", meant to be a more neutral word.  
But then this word has become very controversial as it is seen as a 
leftist/feminist thing by conservative/populists


So when it comes to how we use them in documents related to WIkipedia, 
is to not use any of them. It is a little bit more complicated but it is 
quite possible. "The person who takes a photo should" etc


And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in 
introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream 
(if it ever will be)


Anders



Den 2017-04-07 kl. 00:24, skrev Fæ:

Thanks for raising the different language problems. I'm aware of it,
though I only edit in English.

Last weekend I was much enlightened by sitting down with a German
trans contributor, who was showing me the system language problems on
the German Wikipedia, and together we started having fun comparing
trans related policies and trans related article numbers. I was amazed
at the difference. No, that's not enough, I was really shocked that
the second largest Wikipedia that I deeply respect, is a community
that apparently has little appetite or any active discussion on these
LGBT+ issues. In comparison the English Wikipedia feels like a vibrant
and creative garden of Eden to me as an LGBT+ contributor.

By forging ahead, at least on Wikimedia Commons[1] and attempting the
same on the English Wikipedia[2], we hope to set a healthy example for
what is possible, and lay down the challenge to other projects to be
truly welcoming and feel encouraging for trans and genderqueer readers
and editors, rather than just saying that we are.

Language may be very limiting, sure, let's accept that fact of life.
It's both interesting and difficult. But it's not unimaginable that
our Wikimedia movement could end up adopting leading edge new
non-gendered terms in multiple languages for simple words like "user"
and "administrator" that currently are unnecessarily gendered. We
could even show willing by taking baby steps like just empowering our
users to set their own preferred pronoun style, like Ve or Mx, which
is entirely possible right now, today, in the MediaWiki software.
Ignoring these options, or even joking about them, is to pretend that
genderqueer people don't exist.

Yes, please flag up the issues, let's discuss the challenges. No, I
simply do not accept that by we are asking for the impossible on any
of our projects, I never shall accept it.

Links:
1. Wikimedia Commons, new draft policy created today, because of these
discussions: 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_neutral_language
2. Drafting a new English Wikipedia RFC, because of these discussions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies#Research_for_proposing_a_gender_neutral_principle_for_Wikipedia_policies_and_guidelines

Thanks,
Fae

On 6 April 2017 at 21:49, John Erling Blad  wrote:

There are a lot of languages where there are no neutral gender, or where
there are a single male gender, or it can even be that the only neutral
gender is used for things and animals.

In German there is an expectation of gender-correct form. In Norwegian
there is an expectation of a neutral form. In Danish there is only
masculine forms.

Sorry but this idea is not generally usable.

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Raymond Leonard <
raymond.f.leonard...@gmail.com> wrote:


One can use "one" or "one's" to substitute in many places for 3rd person
singular pronouns. Not everywhere, but it is in keeping with English
grammar.

Peaceray

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:35 AM, J.  wrote:


Instead of:
* A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
How about:
* The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.

Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
I quote: " I simply do not accept that by we are asking for the impossible
on any of our projects, I never shall accept it." That is indeed your
prerogative. The problem is that with such a point of view, there is not
much of a discussion possible. If you want to be single issue Fae, then
fine but it translates in how people perceive you including your other
points of view. That is not something that would make me happy and I know
it is not how you achieve things.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 7 April 2017 at 00:24, Fæ  wrote:

> Thanks for raising the different language problems. I'm aware of it,
> though I only edit in English.
>
> Last weekend I was much enlightened by sitting down with a German
> trans contributor, who was showing me the system language problems on
> the German Wikipedia, and together we started having fun comparing
> trans related policies and trans related article numbers. I was amazed
> at the difference. No, that's not enough, I was really shocked that
> the second largest Wikipedia that I deeply respect, is a community
> that apparently has little appetite or any active discussion on these
> LGBT+ issues. In comparison the English Wikipedia feels like a vibrant
> and creative garden of Eden to me as an LGBT+ contributor.
>
> By forging ahead, at least on Wikimedia Commons[1] and attempting the
> same on the English Wikipedia[2], we hope to set a healthy example for
> what is possible, and lay down the challenge to other projects to be
> truly welcoming and feel encouraging for trans and genderqueer readers
> and editors, rather than just saying that we are.
>
> Language may be very limiting, sure, let's accept that fact of life.
> It's both interesting and difficult. But it's not unimaginable that
> our Wikimedia movement could end up adopting leading edge new
> non-gendered terms in multiple languages for simple words like "user"
> and "administrator" that currently are unnecessarily gendered. We
> could even show willing by taking baby steps like just empowering our
> users to set their own preferred pronoun style, like Ve or Mx, which
> is entirely possible right now, today, in the MediaWiki software.
> Ignoring these options, or even joking about them, is to pretend that
> genderqueer people don't exist.
>
> Yes, please flag up the issues, let's discuss the challenges. No, I
> simply do not accept that by we are asking for the impossible on any
> of our projects, I never shall accept it.
>
> Links:
> 1. Wikimedia Commons, new draft policy created today, because of these
> discussions: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_
> neutral_language
> 2. Drafting a new English Wikipedia RFC, because of these discussions:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_
> LGBT_studies#Research_for_proposing_a_gender_neutral_
> principle_for_Wikipedia_policies_and_guidelines
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
>
> On 6 April 2017 at 21:49, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> > There are a lot of languages where there are no neutral gender, or where
> > there are a single male gender, or it can even be that the only neutral
> > gender is used for things and animals.
> >
> > In German there is an expectation of gender-correct form. In Norwegian
> > there is an expectation of a neutral form. In Danish there is only
> > masculine forms.
> >
> > Sorry but this idea is not generally usable.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Raymond Leonard <
> > raymond.f.leonard...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> One can use "one" or "one's" to substitute in many places for 3rd person
> >> singular pronouns. Not everywhere, but it is in keeping with English
> >> grammar.
> >>
> >> Peaceray
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:35 AM, J.  wrote:
> >>
> >> > Instead of:
> >> > * A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
> >> > How about:
> >> > * The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)
> >> >
> >> > ___
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> ,
> >> > 
> >> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[John Erling Blad]

I believe the best way to describe people is as accurately, and neutral as
possible, following the grammatical and cultural rules within the
community, and especially to address them as they chose themselves. Note
that we use grammatical gender, we do not address people with sexual
gender.

On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 12:47 AM, Risker  wrote:

> Thanks, Fae, for opening this thread - and thank you everyone for
> responding so eloquently and knowledgeably.  This was a topic where I knew
> I didn't have sufficient knowledge to comment, and I have learned a lot
> from this discussion.  It's a solid example of the best traits of the
> Wikimedia family - proposal for a new idea, well-informed discussion, good
> faith assumed on everyone's part.
>
> Risker/Anne
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Risker]

Thanks, Fae, for opening this thread - and thank you everyone for
responding so eloquently and knowledgeably.  This was a topic where I knew
I didn't have sufficient knowledge to comment, and I have learned a lot
from this discussion.  It's a solid example of the best traits of the
Wikimedia family - proposal for a new idea, well-informed discussion, good
faith assumed on everyone's part.

Risker/Anne
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Fæ]

Thanks for raising the different language problems. I'm aware of it,
though I only edit in English.

Last weekend I was much enlightened by sitting down with a German
trans contributor, who was showing me the system language problems on
the German Wikipedia, and together we started having fun comparing
trans related policies and trans related article numbers. I was amazed
at the difference. No, that's not enough, I was really shocked that
the second largest Wikipedia that I deeply respect, is a community
that apparently has little appetite or any active discussion on these
LGBT+ issues. In comparison the English Wikipedia feels like a vibrant
and creative garden of Eden to me as an LGBT+ contributor.

By forging ahead, at least on Wikimedia Commons[1] and attempting the
same on the English Wikipedia[2], we hope to set a healthy example for
what is possible, and lay down the challenge to other projects to be
truly welcoming and feel encouraging for trans and genderqueer readers
and editors, rather than just saying that we are.

Language may be very limiting, sure, let's accept that fact of life.
It's both interesting and difficult. But it's not unimaginable that
our Wikimedia movement could end up adopting leading edge new
non-gendered terms in multiple languages for simple words like "user"
and "administrator" that currently are unnecessarily gendered. We
could even show willing by taking baby steps like just empowering our
users to set their own preferred pronoun style, like Ve or Mx, which
is entirely possible right now, today, in the MediaWiki software.
Ignoring these options, or even joking about them, is to pretend that
genderqueer people don't exist.

Yes, please flag up the issues, let's discuss the challenges. No, I
simply do not accept that by we are asking for the impossible on any
of our projects, I never shall accept it.

Links:
1. Wikimedia Commons, new draft policy created today, because of these
discussions: 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_neutral_language
2. Drafting a new English Wikipedia RFC, because of these discussions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies#Research_for_proposing_a_gender_neutral_principle_for_Wikipedia_policies_and_guidelines

Thanks,
Fae

On 6 April 2017 at 21:49, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> There are a lot of languages where there are no neutral gender, or where
> there are a single male gender, or it can even be that the only neutral
> gender is used for things and animals.
>
> In German there is an expectation of gender-correct form. In Norwegian
> there is an expectation of a neutral form. In Danish there is only
> masculine forms.
>
> Sorry but this idea is not generally usable.
>
> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Raymond Leonard <
> raymond.f.leonard...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> One can use "one" or "one's" to substitute in many places for 3rd person
>> singular pronouns. Not everywhere, but it is in keeping with English
>> grammar.
>>
>> Peaceray
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:35 AM, J.  wrote:
>>
>> > Instead of:
>> > * A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
>> > How about:
>> > * The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.
>> >
>> > Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > 
>> >
>> ___
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>>
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-- 
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Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[John Erling Blad]

Sorry to people from Bergen, girls from Bergen is masculine - "jenten". I
wonder if we can blame that on the Germans, "mädchen" is neutrum, perhaps
they messed up the local language during the Hansa-period.

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:49 PM, John Erling Blad  wrote:

> There are a lot of languages where there are no neutral gender, or where
> there are a single male gender, or it can even be that the only neutral
> gender is used for things and animals.
>
> In German there is an expectation of gender-correct form. In Norwegian
> there is an expectation of a neutral form. In Danish there is only
> masculine forms.
>
> Sorry but this idea is not generally usable.
>
> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Raymond Leonard <
> raymond.f.leonard...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> One can use "one" or "one's" to substitute in many places for 3rd person
>> singular pronouns. Not everywhere, but it is in keeping with English
>> grammar.
>>
>> Peaceray
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:35 AM, J.  wrote:
>>
>> > Instead of:
>> > * A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
>> > How about:
>> > * The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.
>> >
>> > Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > 
>> >
>> ___
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>>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[John Erling Blad]

There are a lot of languages where there are no neutral gender, or where
there are a single male gender, or it can even be that the only neutral
gender is used for things and animals.

In German there is an expectation of gender-correct form. In Norwegian
there is an expectation of a neutral form. In Danish there is only
masculine forms.

Sorry but this idea is not generally usable.

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Raymond Leonard <
raymond.f.leonard...@gmail.com> wrote:

> One can use "one" or "one's" to substitute in many places for 3rd person
> singular pronouns. Not everywhere, but it is in keeping with English
> grammar.
>
> Peaceray
>
> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:35 AM, J.  wrote:
>
> > Instead of:
> > * A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
> > How about:
> > * The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.
> >
> > Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Raymond Leonard]

One can use "one" or "one's" to substitute in many places for 3rd person
singular pronouns. Not everywhere, but it is in keeping with English
grammar.

Peaceray

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:35 AM, J.  wrote:

> Instead of:
> * A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
> How about:
> * The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.
>
> Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[J.]

Instead of:
* A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
How about:
* The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.

Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Pax Ahimsa Gethen]

I support rewriting sentences rather than using "singular they" if it's 
straightforward enough to do so, as in Gerard's example. But yes, there 
are people, including myself, who are neither men nor women, and using 
gendered language like "he or she" leaves us out.


And yes, in English "you" is used to address both an individual and a 
group, though in the latter case often a clarification such as "you all" 
is added. We no longer use "thee" and "thou", so language usage does adapt.


- Pax aka Funcrunch


On 4/6/17 9:51 AM, Marco Chiesa wrote:

I kinda second this, as a non native speaker the singular they sounds
awkward/confusing/wrong/whatever. Maybe something like "the person's"
(I hope everyone would self-recognize in this), "one's own", no
adjective at all. It's a bit hard for me to understand that some
person does not self recognize in either "he" or "she", but in the end
it's always good to learn something new, and if something can be done
to make everyone feel welcome, let's try it.
By the way, I guess a few centuries ago the "singular you" would have
sounded strange as well...

Marco

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Gerard Meijssen
 wrote:

Hoi,
As a non native English speaker, I positively hate this. When you want to
say that a picture of a photographer whatever, you do not have to say "his
or her", it suffices to say "when a picture of a photographer is to be
used, prior permission has to be asked" or whatever.

Yes, it may please you but this practise is not taught in schools and given
the size of the non-native community ... don't do this
Thanks,
 GerardM



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Marco Chiesa]

I kinda second this, as a non native speaker the singular they sounds
awkward/confusing/wrong/whatever. Maybe something like "the person's"
(I hope everyone would self-recognize in this), "one's own", no
adjective at all. It's a bit hard for me to understand that some
person does not self recognize in either "he" or "she", but in the end
it's always good to learn something new, and if something can be done
to make everyone feel welcome, let's try it.
By the way, I guess a few centuries ago the "singular you" would have
sounded strange as well...

Marco

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Gerard Meijssen
 wrote:
> Hoi,
> As a non native English speaker, I positively hate this. When you want to
> say that a picture of a photographer whatever, you do not have to say "his
> or her", it suffices to say "when a picture of a photographer is to be
> used, prior permission has to be asked" or whatever.
>
> Yes, it may please you but this practise is not taught in schools and given
> the size of the non-native community ... don't do this
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
As a non native English speaker, I positively hate this. When you want to
say that a picture of a photographer whatever, you do not have to say "his
or her", it suffices to say "when a picture of a photographer is to be
used, prior permission has to be asked" or whatever.

Yes, it may please you but this practise is not taught in schools and given
the size of the non-native community ... don't do this
Thanks,
GerardM

On 6 April 2017 at 13:30, Antoine Musso  wrote:

> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
> >  I'm taking that further by
> > proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
> > help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
> > she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
>
> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ
> which roughly looks like:
>
> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
>
> With the proposal to instead:
>
> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
>
> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can
> instead write:
>
> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
>
>
> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages.
> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
>
> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
> What some are advocating is using:
>
>   Un/une photographe
>
> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
>
>  Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
>
> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most
> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
>
>
> --
> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Fæ]

Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for
journalists writing in English.[1]

Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know
what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions.
However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm
hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our
fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)

Links
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

Thanks
Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+

On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso  wrote:
> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
>>  I'm taking that further by
>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
>
> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ
> which roughly looks like:
>
> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
>
> With the proposal to instead:
>
> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
>
> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can
> instead write:
>
> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
>
>
> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages.
> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
>
> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
> What some are advocating is using:
>
>   Un/une photographe
>
> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
>
>  Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
>
> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most
> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
>
>
> --
> Antoine "hashar" Musso

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Antoine Musso]

Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
>  I'm taking that further by
> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. 

As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ
which roughly looks like:

A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.

With the proposal to instead:

A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.

Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can
instead write:

A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.


That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages.
For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.

In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
What some are advocating is using:

  Un/une photographe

If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':

 Un/une adminstra-teur-trice

That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most
probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).


-- 
Antoine "hashar" Musso


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Fæ]

Hi Laura,

Thanks for the correction and the information. As you spotted I am
clueless in other languages, I just happened to pick up the Huffington
article but I did not think about perspectives such as the potential
for bias to American Spanish; it seems obvious now you have pointed it
out. Consider the example dropped. :-)

100% agree that the discussion and choices of how to handle gender
neutral guidelines in different languages is for /those language
communities/, with all of their lovely variety and complexity, not the
English speaking/writing community on our projects applying a solution
by majority blunt force.

In the example of Commons, the project is multilingual, however our
policy pages have an agreed default of being written and maintained in
English, with versions in other languages based upon that English
baseline. The proposal I put forward on the Commons Village pump
recognizes this critical limitation, and I wrote a clarification in
the discussion there:

"The question of non-English translation is a separate issue. I did
have some discussions with German and Spanish speakers over the
weekend about precisely the issue of handling gendered languages and
their default bias to male forms. These questions are for those
language communities to reach a consensus on and is a technical
translation and cultural issue. This proposal is focused on our
default policy language of English, I recognize that moving to a more
gender neutral form for other languages is much harder, but that is
not a reason for our community to avoid showing leadership within our
Wikimedia projects, and we should forge ahead where it is possible and
reasonable to do so. I'd even say this is worth a little 'discomfort'
in order to adopt modern best practices and take positive steps to
feel more welcoming for women, trans and genderqueer future
contributors."

By the way, if the Commons proposal succeeds, which appears likely, it
would be great if specific community discussions about how, or
whether, it can be implemented in various language versions. It should
not be turned into a big deal, as the number of policy or help pages
affected is small and the changes will be modest. However I don't know
the best way of going about this, and I hope that those with a passion
for having sensible discussions about gender neutral prose in their
favorite languages will take a lead. It's a knotty complex area, but
I'm hoping we can foster a pattern respectful discussions so everyone
feels their voice is heard and they are welcome to participate,
especially those with a trans or genderqueer experience for whom this
may feel like a highly personal discussion.

Thanks,
Fae


On 6 April 2017 at 08:59, Laura Hale  wrote:
> Hi Fae,
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Fæ  wrote:
>
>> * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
>> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace
>>
>> 1. "Latinx" is a reaction against using gendered forms Latino and
>> Latina, in a language that has no neutral gender. This is becoming an
>> accepted practice in related forums and academic publications.
>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-people-are-using-
>> the-term-latinx_us_57753328e4b0cc0fa136a159
>>
>>
> I don't know how familiar you are with language politics, but you're 100%
> factually incorrect here when saying that Spanish has no gender neutral.
> It does have gender neutral, and I can have full conversations about my
> spouse in Spanish without giving away the gender of the spouse.  Your
> comment appears to be based on a lack of understanding of how gender works
> in Spanish, and it is not helpful as a result as comments like this
> suppress the voices of linguistic minorities and already marginalized
> groups.
>
> Beyond that, how people gender neutral certain gendered words in Spanish
> can be very culture specific. The link to the Huffington Post is clearly an
> American Spanish perspective, and there is a huge debate in various Spanish
> language communities about US Spanish.  It is not a standard form of
> Spanish, and there are discussions about if American Spanish will become
> its own linguistically distinct language in the next decade or so, as a
> sort of English/Spanish combination.  Trying to impose American Spanish on
> other Spanish speakers would be grossly offensive given these linguistic
> issues.  I don't think you'd appreciate Jamaican English being imposed on
> you, and your handling of gendered language issues in English.  I also
> don't think you'd appreciate having Germans with little to no grasp of
> English trying to impose on you standards of use of English.  I'd suggest
> reading some of the materials published by LGBT organizations in Spanish
> speaking countries.
> http://www.felgtb.org/rs/1232/d112d6ad-54ec-438b-9358-4483f9e98868/05d/fd/1/filename/guia-diversidad-ccoo.pdf
> is one of them.
> http://www.uab.cat/Document/964/953/Guia_uso_no_sexista_lenguaje2,0.pdf is
> a guide by 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Laura Hale]

Hi Fae,



On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Fæ  wrote:

> * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace
>
> 1. "Latinx" is a reaction against using gendered forms Latino and
> Latina, in a language that has no neutral gender. This is becoming an
> accepted practice in related forums and academic publications.
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-people-are-using-
> the-term-latinx_us_57753328e4b0cc0fa136a159
>
>
I don't know how familiar you are with language politics, but you're 100%
factually incorrect here when saying that Spanish has no gender neutral.
It does have gender neutral, and I can have full conversations about my
spouse in Spanish without giving away the gender of the spouse.  Your
comment appears to be based on a lack of understanding of how gender works
in Spanish, and it is not helpful as a result as comments like this
suppress the voices of linguistic minorities and already marginalized
groups.

Beyond that, how people gender neutral certain gendered words in Spanish
can be very culture specific. The link to the Huffington Post is clearly an
American Spanish perspective, and there is a huge debate in various Spanish
language communities about US Spanish.  It is not a standard form of
Spanish, and there are discussions about if American Spanish will become
its own linguistically distinct language in the next decade or so, as a
sort of English/Spanish combination.  Trying to impose American Spanish on
other Spanish speakers would be grossly offensive given these linguistic
issues.  I don't think you'd appreciate Jamaican English being imposed on
you, and your handling of gendered language issues in English.  I also
don't think you'd appreciate having Germans with little to no grasp of
English trying to impose on you standards of use of English.  I'd suggest
reading some of the materials published by LGBT organizations in Spanish
speaking countries.
http://www.felgtb.org/rs/1232/d112d6ad-54ec-438b-9358-4483f9e98868/05d/fd/1/filename/guia-diversidad-ccoo.pdf
is one of them.
http://www.uab.cat/Document/964/953/Guia_uso_no_sexista_lenguaje2,0.pdf is
a guide by a university in Barcelona in how to use gender neutral language
in Spain.

Rather than have a group of non-Spanish speaking men with little knowledge
of the Spanish language and less knowledge of the cultural issues facing
the LGBT community in the countries where Spanish is the dominant language
try to justify their interference into linguistic debates for which they
are ill equipped to participate and where they are not the discriminated
against group (because my understanding is that and most of the other men
involved in this discussion are CIS gendered men), why don't you reach out
to WikiMujeres? This is a Wikimedia user group of Spanish speaking women
found at http://wikimujeres.wiki/ .  This group actively discusses these
issues in Spanish and on Wikimedia projects. They have good working
relationships with chapters and can push towards more inclusive Spanish
language usage on Wikimedia Commons much more effectively than you can
given their contacts and fluency in the language.

I am on their mailing list.  If you're actually invested in this issue,
beyond linking to an linguistically dubious article that doesn't reflect
the broader picture of Spanish and making factually incorrect statements,
I'd be happy to reach out to the women I know in WikiMujeres to see what
opportunities there are for Wikimedia LGBT to work with WikiMujeres to
address this issue.  WikiMujeres also has regular edit-a-thons on Mondays
in Madrid when MediaLab Prado is open.  If you're keen to take this
further, I can see about getting you (or any other member of this group) an
invitation to one of these sessions to discuss this issue and how to
resolve it.  (I know they were present in Berlin.  Did you have a chance to
speak with them?)


And as WorldPride is taking place in Madrid this year, doing Spanish
language activities here with the local Spanish groups might be something
seriously worth considering to take advantage.


Sincerely,
Laura Hale




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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Gordon Joly]

On 05/04/17 11:52, Fæ wrote:
> * 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace
> 


Should have been common practice years ago.

IMHO,

El Gordo



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Pax Ahimsa Gethen]

I definitely support using gender-neutral language wherever possible, 
especially since I'm agender and prefer being addressed with "singular 
they" pronouns. I'll support your proposal on Commons.


- Pax aka Funcrunch


On 4/5/17 5:54 AM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:

Writing should, indeed, be gender-neutral when the gender is not known. But
when the gender is known, it is possible in MediaWiki software to write
messaging according to the indicated gender.

Note that in the English grammar it is needed relatively rarely in the
first place. It is relevant for few things other than "he" and "she".
Latina/Latino has a gender, but it is the exception rather than the norm.
In many, many other languages, it is needed far more frequently: for "you"
("Are you sure?"), for imperative verbs ("Upload a media file"), for all
past tense verbs ("Jenny thanked you for your edit"), and in other cases.
MediaWiki and Facebook are the only pieces of software I know (there may be
others) that support adding masculine, feminine, and unknown-gender forms.
(In case you wondered, the default is "unknown".)

There are some cases when this software feature cannot be used, but very
frequently it can, and should be used.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2017-04-05 13:52 GMT+03:00 Fæ :


* https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace

Hi,

One of the unplanned outcomes from the Wikimedia Conference in Berlin,
was that the various discussions over /feeling/ more welcoming in our
language presumptions for non-male contributors made me think about
taking some practical steps on my home project. Commons is lucky that
having a standard policy language of English makes it easier to use
neutral gender in policy statements. I'm taking that further by
proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. I'm hoping
that the outcome will feel like a much more natural space for people
like me that prefer to stay gender neutral, possibly give a slightly
safer feeling to the project by the very act of making the effort, as
well as avoiding an over-emphasis on binary gender when it's pretty
easy to simply avoid it.

Comments are welcome on the specific proposal above, or you may have
ideas for other local projects to do something similar. I'm aware that
this is much more difficult to make progress on in languages such as
German or Spanish that have a presumption of male/female gender within
their vocabulary, so any cases of on-project initiatives in
non-English would be especially interesting. Solving these challenges
is an opportunity to make our projects a leader on gender neutrality,
for example getting a Wikimedia based consensus to adopt terms like
"Latinx".[1]

Links:
1. "Latinx" is a reaction against using gendered forms Latino and
Latina, in a language that has no neutral gender. This is becoming an
accepted practice in related forums and academic publications.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-people-are-using-
the-term-latinx_us_57753328e4b0cc0fa136a159

Thanks,
Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT/Portal
--
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae


--
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Amir E. Aharoni]

Writing should, indeed, be gender-neutral when the gender is not known. But
when the gender is known, it is possible in MediaWiki software to write
messaging according to the indicated gender.

Note that in the English grammar it is needed relatively rarely in the
first place. It is relevant for few things other than "he" and "she".
Latina/Latino has a gender, but it is the exception rather than the norm.
In many, many other languages, it is needed far more frequently: for "you"
("Are you sure?"), for imperative verbs ("Upload a media file"), for all
past tense verbs ("Jenny thanked you for your edit"), and in other cases.
MediaWiki and Facebook are the only pieces of software I know (there may be
others) that support adding masculine, feminine, and unknown-gender forms.
(In case you wondered, the default is "unknown".)

There are some cases when this software feature cannot be used, but very
frequently it can, and should be used.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2017-04-05 13:52 GMT+03:00 Fæ :

> * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace
>
> Hi,
>
> One of the unplanned outcomes from the Wikimedia Conference in Berlin,
> was that the various discussions over /feeling/ more welcoming in our
> language presumptions for non-male contributors made me think about
> taking some practical steps on my home project. Commons is lucky that
> having a standard policy language of English makes it easier to use
> neutral gender in policy statements. I'm taking that further by
> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. I'm hoping
> that the outcome will feel like a much more natural space for people
> like me that prefer to stay gender neutral, possibly give a slightly
> safer feeling to the project by the very act of making the effort, as
> well as avoiding an over-emphasis on binary gender when it's pretty
> easy to simply avoid it.
>
> Comments are welcome on the specific proposal above, or you may have
> ideas for other local projects to do something similar. I'm aware that
> this is much more difficult to make progress on in languages such as
> German or Spanish that have a presumption of male/female gender within
> their vocabulary, so any cases of on-project initiatives in
> non-English would be especially interesting. Solving these challenges
> is an opportunity to make our projects a leader on gender neutrality,
> for example getting a Wikimedia based consensus to adopt terms like
> "Latinx".[1]
>
> Links:
> 1. "Latinx" is a reaction against using gendered forms Latino and
> Latina, in a language that has no neutral gender. This is becoming an
> accepted practice in related forums and academic publications.
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-people-are-using-
> the-term-latinx_us_57753328e4b0cc0fa136a159
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT/Portal
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[Fæ]

* 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace

Hi,

One of the unplanned outcomes from the Wikimedia Conference in Berlin,
was that the various discussions over /feeling/ more welcoming in our
language presumptions for non-male contributors made me think about
taking some practical steps on my home project. Commons is lucky that
having a standard policy language of English makes it easier to use
neutral gender in policy statements. I'm taking that further by
proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. I'm hoping
that the outcome will feel like a much more natural space for people
like me that prefer to stay gender neutral, possibly give a slightly
safer feeling to the project by the very act of making the effort, as
well as avoiding an over-emphasis on binary gender when it's pretty
easy to simply avoid it.

Comments are welcome on the specific proposal above, or you may have
ideas for other local projects to do something similar. I'm aware that
this is much more difficult to make progress on in languages such as
German or Spanish that have a presumption of male/female gender within
their vocabulary, so any cases of on-project initiatives in
non-English would be especially interesting. Solving these challenges
is an opportunity to make our projects a leader on gender neutrality,
for example getting a Wikimedia based consensus to adopt terms like
"Latinx".[1]

Links:
1. "Latinx" is a reaction against using gendered forms Latino and
Latina, in a language that has no neutral gender. This is becoming an
accepted practice in related forums and academic publications.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-people-are-using-the-term-latinx_us_57753328e4b0cc0fa136a159

Thanks,
Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT/Portal
--
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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