Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

It is hard to tell what thread you refer to when the thread is gone. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Richard Ames Sent: Friday, 20 November 2015 9:51 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Please drop this thread / subject. Concentrate on issues not people. Regards, Richard. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wiki

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil Sinclair wrote: >Thanks for bringing me up, MZMcBride; should get a lot more people to look >at those IRC logs I was hoping to bring to everyone's attention. I'm looking forward to your posts about the current and upcoming Wikimedia Foundation strategic plans. That's why you came on IRC, right

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

No, I'm right here. Standing up for what I believe in, just like I stand up for the principles I value everywhere, including IRC, on-wiki, and off-. It seems y'all know where to find my opinion. So, if you're interested, go look. If you're not, then feel free to just put me down here, as per the us

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil Sinclair wrote: >With all due respect, no more of my time will be spent on this forum >whatsoever. > >I'm not at all comfortable with the direction that this thread has >taken. If my asking earnest questions makes anyone feel "unsafe" and >leads to requests to block me (yes, both things were >m

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Austin Hair wrote: > Wil, > > Just for the record, "hands-off" is the best way to describe our > approach to wikimedia-l moderation. We (the administrators) sometimes > step in when a thread or a poster gets way out of control, but for > this list, that bar's set

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil, Just for the record, "hands-off" is the best way to describe our approach to wikimedia-l moderation. We (the administrators) sometimes step in when a thread or a poster gets way out of control, but for this list, that bar's set pretty high. The "soft post limit" that's been pointed out to yo

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On 29/05/2014, Austin Hair wrote: > ́Fae, > > You just did. Arguably, you did even worse by throwing the allegation > out there without substantiation. Nobody's asking you to be friends > with Greg Kohs—it's no secret that I'm not—but you're dredging up > off-list history for no productive reason

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

́Fae, You just did. Arguably, you did even worse by throwing the allegation out there without substantiation. Nobody's asking you to be friends with Greg Kohs—it's no secret that I'm not—but you're dredging up off-list history for no productive reason I can discern. Since I'm responsible for seei

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Well, the best way to meet people interested in working with you to build the sound library on Commons is ... on Commons. There's a Village Pump there, where you can freely post a message, and people will answer it if they are interested. There are projects running that revolve around sound or vide

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

With all due respect, no more of my time will be spent on this forum whatsoever. I'm not at all comfortable with the direction that this thread has taken. If my asking earnest questions makes anyone feel "unsafe" and leads to requests to block me (yes, both things were mentioned/requested and can

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Hi Wil, I think the advice in this thread from John and Dariusz is excellent, and well worth taking on board. Energy is good, and disruption to shake us out of our status quo is good. But at the moment, your communication style is swamping this list and that's getting people's backs up. The iss

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

For the record, I take any safety issues concerning both staff and volunteers extremely seriously. In the case of a threatening message left on an employee's talk page, GorillaWarfare took immediate action, for which I am very grateful. And I am grateful to see this kind of community at work. Crea

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

hi Wil, reading through this thread is already a challenge :) I want to write that I really appreciate your enthusiasm and energy. It is really awesome that you care about Wikimedia and that you do not shy away from a discussion. As several participants have pointed out, some of the veterans may

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 8:05 AM, Wil Sinclair wrote: > As I mentioned to Sam, I have just one more thing to say here before I > let you guys deliberate on whether to block me. > > I've been getting tons of private emails from people who say that they > don't want to see me blocked, but that they a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

As I mentioned to Sam, I have just one more thing to say here before I let you guys deliberate on whether to block me. I've been getting tons of private emails from people who say that they don't want to see me blocked, but that they are afraid to say that on the list, because they feel like they

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Thanks for the note, Sam. Your advice to me is very wise. I've said and seen about all that I want to, save one more post. You'll see it in the next few minutes. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Samuel Klein wrote: > Hello all, > > Lila: Thank you kindly for these recent notes. It is wonde

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Hello all, Lila: Thank you kindly for these recent notes. It is wonderful to hear your thoughts on your first weeks. Wil: Working through public, logged forums is a fine principle; one that I try to follow myself. It helps avoid misunderstandings. Pete Forsyth writes: > I'd like to suggest th

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 11:37 PM, Wil Sinclair wrote: > I didn't know that he called you a "faggot." Could you please show me > where? > That post was removed from view at the time (May 2012). http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3707#p3707 What Greg had said on WO was, ---o0o---

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Wil Sinclair wrote: > Hi Erik, just for guidance here- should I not publicly respond to > those who have publicly address me or talked about my actions or words > directly? Hey Wil, Pick your battles, help keep the conversation manageable, exercise restraint, tak

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

I do agree that with all good faith being assumed, Wil's style of interaction is a bit new and the novelty is starting to wear off a bit. Wil is of course his own individual and beyond respecting the soft posting limits as part of this list's etiquette I do not think anyone is trying to stifle or s

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

It turns out that Lila is actually a perfect ED. Someone capable to handle and love a person like Wil is -- should be quite competent in handling the rest of the community :D On May 29, 2014 1:21 AM, "Wil Sinclair" wrote: > Hi Erik, just for guidance here- should I not publicly respond to > thos

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Hi Erik, just for guidance here- should I not publicly respond to those who have publicly address me or talked about my actions or words directly? You guys are moving in a *very* sketchy direction here. These mails are archived; it will be quite clear what everyone said before I was blocked if you

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

ng the pot, ignore him and it will go away. > From: w...@wllm.com > Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 16:10:49 -0700 > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note. > > If this list chooses to block me for any amount of time, it might as > well be f

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

If this list chooses to block me for any amount of time, it might as well be forever. I'm responding to other people's mails here; I'd prefer to mail less as well. In any case, you'll be blocking someone for asking relevant questions and replying to relevant concerns. I think that is pretty self-e

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil: nothing anyone is saying here is aimed at discrediting you, you've just jumped in to a field of landmines without a map, and we'd rather not have you blow your legs off. I'll have a private email incoming to you as fast as I can type it but given that the deputy director of the WMF and severa

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

I didn't really mention anything specifically, except a leader who could "change the concerning aspects of the WP community." It has been WMF's stated goal to change things like the participation of women on WP for years. I suppose it would be most accurate to say that I meant the things that the W

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote: > This is no judgment on him as a person, but I do think > we need to protect this list from further flooding. As a reminder, this list has an official "soft limit" of 30 posts per individual/month, as stated on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

... I wish I kept more up to date on this set of threads and had stepped in to say something sooner. I'm going to go ahead and say that I agree with Pete that at this juncture the most beneficial course of action would probably be for Wil to back this set of discussions for at least a few days, if

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Someone already mentioned me on his talk page, and I responded. Please do paste that quote there if you think he'd be interested in it. I know he and Greg have disagreed in the past; he may offer me a different perspective on the matter. I'm interested in everyone's perspective. ,Wil On Wed, May

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

You *can't* be serious. Now I'm *really* starting to get the idea that you guys just want to shut me up. And you're using the fact that I'm actually being very open about something to justify it. This is extremely worrying if everyone else on this list agrees with you. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Greg, would you like to repeat your filth? He may need someone to post it in surrogate, since I believe he said he's banned here. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Fæ wrote: > Wil, ask Kohs to repeat his filth. I'm not going to do it for him. > > Fae > > On 28 May 2014 23:37, Wil Sinclair w

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

All: I don't know the first thing about the alleged safety concerns discussed on IRC, but the following quote is troubling to me: On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Wil Sinclair wrote: > She replied "a WMF employee emailed me that there are safety > concerns, It seems that Wil has chosen to rep

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

I mean, you referred to Lila as a potential source of change in the community's problems in your email right before mine on this thread. If you meant the community of the wikis, I'm just saying that it wouldn't really be kosher according to our current practices. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:42 PM,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Yes, we did talk on IRC. But what are you referring to? I wasn't referring to you anywhere. I don't even remember talking about WMF's role in the community. I guess if you have a log of that part of the conversation, you should post it now. I may have a log in my own client, if you don't mind my po

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil, Have you been introduced to Jimmy Wales yet? I'd be most interested for you to take your quote about Greg Kohs to Jimmy on his talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&action=edit§ion=new) and ask him if he would agree with you. Also, please note that here

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil, ask Kohs to repeat his filth. I'm not going to do it for him. Fae On 28 May 2014 23:37, Wil Sinclair wrote: > I didn't know that he called you a "faggot." Could you please show me where? > > I mentioned I didn't agree with him on everything. I certainly would > *never* agree that a slur lik

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

I didn't know that he called you a "faggot." Could you please show me where? I mentioned I didn't agree with him on everything. I certainly would *never* agree that a slur like that is justified, if he did make it. In any case, the quote stands. Maybe we should start a separate thread on the quote

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

I thought she did explain it. I act on my own behalf. I'm not introducing Lila to anyone for any purpose. Man, I am getting tired of writing that, and I can imagine that you're tired of reading it. We've both already answered this question. Everything I said about Greg there is true in *my* opinio

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil, we talked about this on IRC, so I won't repeat what I said. But what I did *not* say is that the foundation tends to let the community do what it wants, and it would be against that long-standing tradition for staff to try to force a change in the community. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:18 PM, W

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil, you are supporting a man that thought it was a hilarious joke to call me a faggot. Not something that I am prepared to overlook, ever. I now have serious reservations about Lila's good judgement in failing to ensure you were appropriately advised, considering her critical role in the Wikimedi

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

First off, I said that about Greg, and I firmly believe it. He's uncovered many controversies at Wikipedia. In fact, his article was the first to be critical of Lila's appointment, and- save the rather petty comment about airline fees at the end- was pretty on-point. That doesn't mean that I agree

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On 28 May 2014 22:57, Pete Forsyth wrote: ... > Is this really the best way for the new Executive Director to be introduced > to the Wikimedia community and the world? > >- * is lucky to have people like Greg [Kohs]; even if he >never directly contributes to WP going forward, we're all wel

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Dear Lila, I think many of us are interested in how you will engage with the Wikimedia community, what kind of outcomes you will seek, and what kind of tactics you will employ in seeking those outcomes. Can you please clarify whether you believe it is possible for somebody with a close connection

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

> Ah, this segues well into the email I was just drafting: I have to say that > I was surprised to see the contents of what appears to be an internal staff > email being brought up both on Wikipediocracy and here by a non-staff > member. Wil, can you clarify if you were copied on the email, and if

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Hello Victor: I continue to admire your persistence, and now it seems that of your partner, to fully engage in the process of bringing your considerable talent and seemingly boundless energy to making it possible for "very single human being to freely share in the sum of all knowledge." It remind

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil Sinclair writes: > I've apologized to you here and on Wikipediocracy, but apologies are > always worth doing directly and for as many to see as possible: I'm > very sorry for mistaking you for a WMF employee. I take full > responsibility for my words and actions. I hope you can forgive me.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

I cannot believe I am saying this; but I totally agree with Russavia. Wil; why not have a go contributing to some WP articles and seeing what your experience is. We have a comment statement that gets made on flame threads, which boils down to "isn't there an article you could be writing?" Tom

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Thanks for all the pointers, Molly, and for disclosing that it was you for the sake of adding a bit more info to the discussion; you haven't done anything wrong as far as I know, and I didn't feel comfortable mentioning your IRC nick in case there were any confusion. I simply didn't get a chance to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil, On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 3:24 AM, Wil Sinclair wrote: As you can see there is a lot of consternation being directed your way, and at some stage, and this will teach you well for the future as well, you have to learn to walk away from the keyboard. If you can't do this, and I have a feeling y

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Hi Will, we generally can find critics mainly from those who cannot understand or do not have patience when newbies make mistakes. Obviously I also have this problem sometimes (for this some ironic comments when I suggested in a recent topic suggesting we should criticize more kindly

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil, I have been following the conversation and I can feel your good-hearted nature. Please do not be offended when they say "wait" to you. They mean no harm to you, just the opposite. I know how frustrating it is to have to wait, because all of us have gone through the same... Just to give you an

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Well, we were discussing IRC and my experience there in this thread, and many people were asking me to "wait." I find this interesting, because some on Wikipediocracy also asked me to "wait," with the significant exception that this was to "wait until I so something, then come back." In this case,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

> > > We are all interested in hearing all sides of every story here, aren't > we? I'm starting to get the feeling that there are things that some > people on this list don't want *anyone* to discuss. Which things, and which people are you aiming at, particularly? --Martijn > After all, you >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note

Thank you for the explanations, Lila, Molly, and everyone else. Wil, I happen to be waiting on an email right now so I have a few minutes to spare. If you need clarification on anything that has been said in this discussion I am happy to meet you on IRC or have a Skype conversation. I would sug

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil Sinclair writes: > > Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be > obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. Indeed you can. If you navigate to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log and enter the title of the page in the "Target (ti

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Wil Sinclair wrote: > Nathan, I was responding to Lila's note to clarify that I had made the > decision to not discuss anything privately with any WMF employee. The > IRC discussion was referenced by Fae, so I sent a link to the > discussion so everyone could see

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Nathan, I was responding to Lila's note to clarify that I had made the decision to not discuss anything privately with any WMF employee. The IRC discussion was referenced by Fae, so I sent a link to the discussion so everyone could see what he was talking about; I will absolutely stand by my words.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

If people don't want me to discuss this here, of course we can take it elsewhere. I only reply to this publicly to suggest that you and others help me out with that. For example, you have plenty of options beyond replying list-wide to communicate the very thing you're telling me below. As long as

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Yes, that was mentioned on the Wikipediocracy thread, as well. I apologize to that person and the WMF for my misunderstanding. Other than establishing the fact that I wrongly stated that this person is a WMF employee, the revdelete doesn't seem to warrant more investigation according to existing p

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil, if you want to use email lists for your discussions, you may find a better reception if you use one of the project- or task-specific lists. There is a page on English Wikipedia with links to mailing lists that most closely relate to that project[1] and a more extensive list at Meta that descri

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Wil Sinclair wrote: > Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be > obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the > following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago: > > " > I may have misread which page the rev was

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On May 28, 2014 7:09 PM, "Wil Sinclair" wrote: > > Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be > obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the > following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago: > > " > I may have misread which page the rev was on, o

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago: " I may have misread which page the rev was on, or I misunderstood the person who said s/he revdeleted it in t

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Erik Moeller wrote: > If you're talking about the message left on Oliver's talk page, it was > a threat by a banned user which included reference to a dream about > him where "knees were nailed to the floor from the back" and other > such lovely details. That's pre

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil, the deletion log of the page in question is publicly visible. There are no WMF employees who have deleted anything on that page, ever. This is information you can check for yourself instead of relying on the words of others. Risker On 28 May 2014 12:23, Wil Sinclair wrote: > Hi Fae, if y

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Wil Sinclair wrote: > To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately > emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask > a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite > clear that the IRC channe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Michael Snow wrote: > If those guidelines are respected, there should be no > problem about Wil interacting with staff in an ordinary fashion. I'm sure > Wil understands this and will be careful about it, and it's also good that > Lila has said this publicly so tha

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

A slight correction: the revision was rev-deleted by a member of the community - a member of ArbCom, in fact - and not an employee of the Foundation. Snt frm m Phn > On May 28, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Wil Sinclair wrote: > > Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I > think

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees going forward: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4680&start=150. To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately emailing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Thanks Michael for spelling this out further. Your understanding is correct. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Michael Snow wrote: > On 5/28/2014 5:59 AM, Fæ wrote: > >> On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov wrote: >> ... >> >>> independent individual >>> able to speak with his own voice and ask his own

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On 28 May 2014 16:55, Michael Snow wrote: > On 5/28/2014 5:59 AM, Fæ wrote: ... >> I do not really understand the point being made about not "engaging" ... > I believe the point is that Wil, in particular, will not interfere with > Wikimedia staff in carrying out their duties, assign them specific

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On 5/28/2014 5:59 AM, Fæ wrote: On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov wrote: ... independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF employees. I do not really understand the point bei

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Hi Victor, That's great. I can't see any complaints about WMF employees in the links you provided. I am sure that we could find 100 examples of the partners of Wikimedians doing something on Wikimedia projects, it would be a great topic for "reasons why I love Wikimedia"... That is not the issue

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

My significant other applied for a grant and got 500 Wikireaders distributed to 3 schools: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Aislinn_Dewey/Distribute_WikiReaders_to_Schools/Report https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/help-distribute-wikireaders-and-provide-an-opportunity-for-kids-to-learn On

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On 28 May 2014 15:04, Marc A. Pelletier wrote: ... > So that Wil's interest manifested around the time Lila was announced as > the next ED seems to me to be perfectly natural, even if I have > expressed serious concerns about *how* that interest was expressed. > -- Marc There is a big difference

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

My wife, thanks to Viisual Editor, now creates pages! On 28 May 2014 16:21, Everton Zanella Alvarenga wrote: > Just a personal testimonial also to emphasize Marc's point and not > necessarily when I did a work for WMF as a contractor, my previous > girlfriend got interesting in Wikimedia project

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Just a personal testimonial also to emphasize Marc's point and not necessarily when I did a work for WMF as a contractor, my previous girlfriend got interesting in Wikimedia projects after she saw somethings I worked on my spare time as a volunteer. She even began to write at Wikimedia Brasil maili

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On 05/28/2014 08:59 AM, Fæ wrote: > A curiosity that only manifested > itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the > Foundation board. In all fairness, Fæ, if my spouse had been hired as the leader of a very visible and significant business or nonprofit, I too would find

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov wrote: ... > independent individual > able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not > take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF > employees. Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your ti