Re: [WISPA] Mac Dearman OT

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Wonder about scallops and clams?

- Original Message - 
From: "Ron Harden" 
To: ; "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mac Dearman OT


Very true, except for the alcohol -- no problem there unless crème-based
(forget the Baileys -- that's like injecting fat directly into your veins).
I never cheat on the saturated fat.  But occasionally I cheat to moderation
on the cholesterol.  I assume the statin drugs are doing their job!

Another really bad one --> mayo.  Take a look sometime at the fat content!



-Original Message-
From: Faisal Imtiaz [mailto:fai...@snappydsl.net]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:19 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mac Dearman OT

Ron,
Aren't   Shell Fish... (Shrimp, lobster & crawfish) also off limits due to
being high in cholesterol?
Along with Alcohol ?



Faisal Imtiaz
Computer Office Solutions Inc. /SnappyDSL.net
Ph: (305) 663-5518 x 232
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Ron Harden
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 12:56 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mac Dearman OT

Diet:  Low in saturated fat and low in cholesterol.  No cheese, bacon,
sausage, cookies, doughnuts, beef, butter.  Look for healthy alternatives.
Believe it or not, before long even the heart-healthy foods will taste good.
Seafood, no-fat cheese, more salads and very lean ham or turkey are good.
No beef.  Just read the nutritional labels on anything you buy before it
goes in your mouth.  I don't eat anything with more than 2 grams of
saturated fat per serving.



Meds:  The docs played with the meds for a while until we finally got the
LDL down < 70.  I'm on 10 Mg Zetia, 80 Mg Pravastatin (generic equivalent
for Pravachol), 10 Mg Lisinopril (blood drug) and a baby aspirin.  The
statin drugs are notorious for causing muscle pains, but I don't have any
problem tolerating the Pravachol.



Word of warning to all:  If over 40 I suggest that you have a test done to
determine if there is any plaque buildup in your arteries.  Don't rely on a
simple stress test in combination with an annual physical to determine if
heart-healthy.  I had a stress test in which nothing showed up, 6 months
before the heart incident (80-90% blockage in main arteries).  Since my
experience, all of my friends over 40 have had a heart CT scan (or some
equivalent) done.  One of them owned his own telecom company, and after the
test, went out and bought a $10 mil life policy because they found
something.



Hope this helps.Ron







-Original Message-
From: Chuck McCown - 3 [mailto:ch...@beehive.net]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:48 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mac Dearman OT



So, what is that diet like?  Lipitor was killing me so I threw it away.



>

> -Original Message-

> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> On

> Behalf Of Ron Harden

> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:21 AM

> To: 'WISPA General List'

> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mac Dearman Update

>

> Mac:  Call me when you feel like talking...I had 2 stents inserted 7
> years

> ago and have the diet down pat -- OK it might be boring -- but in

> combination with the heart drugs, my bad cholesterol (LDL) is down to 62.

> When the LDL is below 70 they have found that the arteries start to
> flush

> themselves of plaque build-up.

>

> Call when better and we can compare stents!  :)

>

> My heart doc says it might even improve your libido!  Can I say that
> on

> the

> list serv?

>

> Best...Ron

>

>

>

> -Original Message-

> From: Jeremy Davis [mailto:jere...@maximumtech.biz]

> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:08 AM

> To: WISPA General List

> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mac Dearman Update

>

>> Did she say if he had a stint?

>

> He did.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Jeremy Davis, CEO

> Maximum Technologies, LLC

> Office 318.303.4725

> www.maximumtech.us

>

>

>

>

>


> 

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Re: [WISPA] Mac Dearman OT

[Chuck McCown - 3]

So, what is that diet like?  Lipitor was killing me so I threw it away.

>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Ron Harden
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:21 AM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mac Dearman Update
>
> Mac:  Call me when you feel like talking...I had 2 stents inserted 7 years
> ago and have the diet down pat -- OK it might be boring -- but in
> combination with the heart drugs, my bad cholesterol (LDL) is down to 62.
> When the LDL is below 70 they have found that the arteries start to flush
> themselves of plaque build-up.
>
> Call when better and we can compare stents!  :)
>
> My heart doc says it might even improve your libido!  Can I say that on 
> the
> list serv?
>
> Best...Ron
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jeremy Davis [mailto:jere...@maximumtech.biz]
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:08 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mac Dearman Update
>
>> Did she say if he had a stint?
>
> He did.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jeremy Davis, CEO
> Maximum Technologies, LLC
> Office 318.303.4725
> www.maximumtech.us
>
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Charging Battery Desulphator

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Lots of airplane owners swear by them.

- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 8:20 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Charging Battery Desulphator


> Anyone familiar with these?
> http://www.solarconverters.com/desulphate10.htm
> I'm wondering if they are whats needed to bring any battery back to life.
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] FM radio station site strangeness

[Chuck McCown - 3]

There are pseudo square waves on ethernet.  Those have an infinite number of 
harmonics. 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Brian Rohrbacher 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 10:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] FM radio station site strangeness


  I installed a cat5 cable next to a guys police scanner one time and as soon 
as I plugged the cable (lan cable from poe to computer) in the police scanner 
stayed "keyed up" on 15o or 155 mhz as I remember.  Unplugged the cable and the 
scanner started scanning again, so I always thought it was 150 some mhz.

  Brian

  Marlon K. Schafer wrote: 
So far all I can find on the internet is that ethernet is at either 12.5 or 
31.25mhz.  NOT 350, that's gigE, not 10/100.

Also, this tower is a 100' wooden pole.  Can't move anywhere really.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Adam Goodman" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] FM radio station site strangeness


  It also sounds like there is a new leak in the waveguide. One more
thing you might try is to move the cable from leg to leg on the tower
so that you variable length sections that do not resonate at 350MHz or
~100MHz (FM transminssion).


On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Adam Goodman  wrote:
We also colocate with an FM transmitter. Only 1300W though. we also
had interference on our Ethernet lines. We solved it by moving radios
away from the FM antenna (3 feet or so on a 90' tower) We also
installed ferrits which helped (I actually used a conduit pipe).
Grounding the cat5 helped too.

I would think that if you find that you need more shielding. put all
your cat5 cables in a conduit and install abreakout box at the top of
the tower. If your area is prone to electrical storms (where isn't
these days?!) you will at some point be very sorry you didn't grount
(and well!!)



On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Marlon K. Schafer  
wrote:
  Hi All,

I think we finally have this all figured out.  Now I just have to figure 
out
how to fix it.

We've been up there for over 6 years now.  It's certainly been a 
problematic
site though.  Constant channel changes (we have 3 competitors a mile 
away
and pick up hundreds of ap's from in town) are the norm.

This fall (a month or two ago) one of the tenants left the building. 
This
cleared out most of the hardware that was in there.  A little bit before
that I replaced an Inscape Data and a smartBridges combo with a single 
MT
access point, using one of the cables that had been working for one of 
the
other two.

About a week ago things started to really act up.  Multiple devices were
having trouble.  I was able to catch it in the act finally.  This time 
the
problem wasn't a wireless issue, the devices were constantly 
disconnecting
and reconnecting at the switch level.

I pulled the Cisco switch out and dropped in a Netgear unit.  That 
didn't
fix it.  Next I put in a Digital Loggers rack mount reboot device.  That
wouldn't connect right either.

I finally had to pull all of the hardware off of the shelf and set most 
of
it on the floor (or just let it hang there) to get it working at all 
well.
Still not perfect but better.

I had by now hiked up there through sometimes knee deep snow 3 or 4 
times.
Next I took a motorbike with studded snow tires up and got permission to
turn down the power to the radio station.  That didn't fix the problem
either.

Next I borrowed a snowmobile and hauled some help and my spectrum 
analyzer
up.  I was unable to see any signals that didn't belong.

Next day, another hike up the hill.

OK, maybe a cat 5 cable went bad and I'm getting backfeed through the
switch.  DC current or something.  So I started testing the cables that 
run
to the most problematic units.  Well now, look at that.  Bad cable.  In 
fact
there are three of them.  Hmmm, kinda strange though.  All three have 
the
exact same fault!  Oh well, better change them out anyway.  I ran three 
new
cable runs and just for kicks I tested one of them.  What the heck? 
The
new cable has the EXACT same fault as the old one!  Even though it 
didn't
follow the exact same path as the old cables.

Man, this is sure looking like a problem caused by the radio station.  I 
was
using indoor cat5 and didn't run lightning protection or ground 
anything.
Yeah I know, but remember that this has been there for a very long time 
like
this.  And as a guy with an electrical background I know that there are
actually two ways to deal with stray electrical.  Grounding is one.
Insulating is another  Anyway, I know it wasn't built to specs.

I added some grounding and that didn't help at all.

Yesterday I finally had one of the local wireless companies (Day 
Wireless)
that mainly does VHF radios, backhaul etc.  They also checked things 
with
the spectrum analyzer but couldn't find anything amiss.  I was able to
duplicate the wiring fault for them (with my Ideal tester).  But 
suddenly
everything cleared righ

Re: [WISPA] metal building install

[Chuck McCown - 3]

What kind of radios/antennas?
I can make a slot antenna out of the same metal they use for the building. 
It would be invisible.  But spendy...
- Original Message - 
From: "Jim Patient" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] metal building install


>I don't think I can get away with painted antennas on this one.  I might
> have to get some custom covers made or something.  I'm checking with
> couple sign makers to see if they can come up with something.  This is a
> fancy new building with $$$ just in art around it and they want it to
> look good.  I can't get on the roof.  There are beacon lights mounted
> directly on top of the parrapit wall and nothing can be higher than the
> beacons.
>
> I've seen all kinds of palmtennas, rocktennas, bushtennas, etc. and just
> thought maybe someone had done something like this before.
> I was kind of hoping that someone would come back with "Oh call Tom down
> at customdecorativeantennacovers.com" ;-)
>
> Jim
>
> os10ru...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Be real careful the paint is not metallic. You might want to spray
>> something microwave safe and put it in the microwave oven to see if it
>> gets hot or sparks for a test. You could end up losing a lot of db in
>> the paint.
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> On Jan 7, 2009, at 5:34 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I'm just trying to picture a brushed stainless steel wall... I don't
>>> know if
>>> I have seen a building like that before (at least one that wasn't
>>> super
>>> modern).
>>>
>>> The cheapest solution is going to be a silver colored spray paint...
>>> after
>>> that I can't think of anything good.
>>>
>>> Daniel White
>>> 3-dB Networks
>>> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Jim Patient
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 2:36 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] metal building install
>>>
>>> I don't have a picture handy.  There isn't much to see though.  It is
>>> just a plain stainless steel wall at the areas the antennas are going.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> 3-dB Networks wrote:
>>>
 Can you provide a picture of the building?

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Jim Patient
 Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 12:00 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] metal building install

 We have a project to install 5GHz sectors on a large beautiful
 building
 that has brushed stainless sheeting on the sides.  The antennas
 must be
 installed on the outside walls and cannot be higher than the sides.
 They want the antennas to be hidden or as non-obtrusive as possible.
 Anyone got any ideas on how to cover, hide, or camouflage  the
 antennas?  There will be 3 sectors on each side.

 If anyone has done something like this and would care to share
 pictures,
 that would be great.

 Jim





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Re: [WISPA] Grain leg safety cage (was Re: Tower accident)

[Chuck McCown - 3]

No but you could fall down and get so tangled up the rescue would be 
difficult.  I have climbed caged ladders that had a pipe up the center of 
the ladder with small ratchet notches in it.  The arrester device was a pipe 
looking thing that would slide up the safety pipe/rail.  It had a spring 
loaded dog that would engage the notches if you fell.  I thought it was a 
pretty good system.
- Original Message - 
From: "3-dB Networks" 
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Grain leg safety cage (was Re: Tower accident)


> That's what the safety cage is for. if you fall basically you should only 
> be
> leaning back on the cage.
>
>
>
> You technically shouldn't be able to fall with a safety cage.
>
>
>
> Daniel White
>
> 3-dB Networks
>
> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
>
>
>
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 12:30 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Grain leg safety cage (was Re: Tower accident)
>
>
>
> What happens when you fall?
>
> Brian
>
> John Valenti wrote:
>
> Brian,
> Why would you want to add a safety cable to the cage?  I'm on several
> legs with the cages and they seem great. I usually just lean back to
> take a break while climbing.
>
> It seems like an unnecessary bother, and something else to get in the
> way while climbing the ladder.  Just curious what your thinking is,
> maybe I'm missing something.
> -John
>
>
> On Jan 6, 2009, at 9:20 PM, Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
>
>
>
> I have seriously thought about putting a cable going up the center of
> the ladders on all the elevator legs we're on.  There is already one
> on
> the leg that has no cage.  Then we could clip on a go, with either a
> belt or a light harness (unlike my big sit down elk river harness that
> is a little heavy).  Anyone run these cable before?  What is needed?
>
>
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Voip commercial

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I couldn't get it to play.  Any way to make it an attachment?

- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 8:41 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Voip commercial


> The radio station sent me this new ad for my voip offering.
> Can I get some feedback on it, what if anything should change?
>
>
> http://www.oregonfast.net/gofast/Radio/sp04221.mp3
>
> Thanks
> George
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] Postage

[Chuck McCown - 3]

We send email bills directly from the BOSS/Platypus system.
Stopped doing paper bills a year or more ago.  We were using a Pitney Bowes 
system.
- Original Message - 
From: "Travis Johnson" 
To: ; "WISPA General List" 
; "Motorola Canopy User Group" 
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 10:17 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Postage


> Hi,
>
> I'm curious what everyone else is using for sending USPS letters and
> packages? We've had a nice postage machine (seals, stamps, etc.) that
> does our envelopes each month (about 1,500 per month). However, I'm
> getting tired of these companies (Neopost) charging $200 for a software
> update because the post office changes their pricing.
>
> What is anyone else doing? We send about 1,500 envelopes on the 20th of
> each month, and then only a couple a day the other days.
>
> thanks,
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] A Squirrel Took My Backhaul Down ;)

[Chuck McCown - 3]

We have that happen on a regular basis.  You have to use armored cable, and 
even then they will eat through it.
- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Nash" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 11:27 AM
Subject: [WISPA] A Squirrel Took My Backhaul Down ;)


> We have this backhaul that services about 20 customers in this little
> micropop... hosted by a property owner who has a high sport.  It's been
> there for 3 years without problem.  Got notified yesterday morning about 
> 6am
> that the backhaul went down.
>
> After testing EVERYTHING else, I tested the cable.  No worky.  then I
> followed the trench where we had direct-buried the (direct-burial-rated)
> cat5 cable.  At one point, there were many 3" holes all around the zipper
> line where along the trench.  The property owner said that they'd been
> shooting them lately and had killed about 40.
>
> We go up there next week with trencher and conduit.  ;)
>
> Mark Nash
> UnwiredWest
> 78 Centennial Loop, Suite E
> Eugene, OR 97401
> http://www.unwiredwest.com
> 541-998-
> 541-998-5599 fax
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] equipment state property taxes

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Us too.  Personal property.
- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] equipment state property taxes


> Yeppers
> Our county has a property tax on business equipment, the desk, the cash
> register, etc etc etc.
>
>
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> I've never heard of a property tax that was applied to anything other 
>> than a
>> parcel of land or a structure.  I know our township auditor quite well 
>> and
>> that's all that is involved.
>>
>> You don't pay property tax on your computer or big screen TV, why would 
>> you
>> on a CPE?
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "RickG" 
>> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:52 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: [WISPA] equipment state property taxes
>>
>>> Well, I thought I wouldnt have to worry about state property taxes on
>>> my equipment because it was leased, but I received a nice Christmas
>>> present from my leasing company in the form of a $1700 bill. They were
>>> billed from our local tax authority and in turn expect me to pay it.
>>> My CPA was surprised as well and said there may be some exceptions for
>>> Internet providers. Has anyone heard of this?
>>> -RickG
>>>
>>>
>>> 
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Re: [WISPA] POE up AM radio tower

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I am guessing WMFJ

- Original Message - 
From: "Leon D. Zetekoff, NCE" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] POE up AM radio tower


>* Doug Ratcliffe wrote, On 1/3/2009 7:33 PM:
>> The tower is a 4-leg self supporting tower, it was built a long time ago,
>> built from what I've heard in the mid 1900's...  The antennas for the 
>> tower
>> are isolated from the tower, it appears that there are 3 vertical 
>> antennas,
>> attached with copper tubing from the transmitter to each of the antennas
>> (which are on isolated standoffs, top to bottom.  There is some kind of
>> matching transformer in the building under the tower.  The tower is 10kW,
>> 1450 AM (good guess on the frequency!)..
>>
> I think 1450 is a CLASS IV (or what was a CLASS IV) freq and should be
> 1kW. What's the callsign and location?
>
> leon
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] POE up AM radio tower

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Are you sure it is non-live?  Normally AM antennas are the whole tower.  Is 
it sitting on an insulator at the base?  Do you know the power of the 
transmitter?  160 feet sure fits the mold of a quarter wavelength vertical. 
Like 1460 kHz.  If it is shunt fed, then you will have a tap up about a 
quarter of the way energizing the whole tower.  Or it could be base fed and 
there would be a matching network/loading network in a transformer shed or 
enclosure at the base.  Either way if it is an active AM tower of that 
length the whole tower most certaily has current on it.

The best way would be to run the POE ethernet cable in the exact same manner 
as the tower light (presuming it has one, at 160' that is not a 
requirement).  You can make a choke coil out of copper tubing and run the 
cat5 through the tubing.  There are also commercially made isolation 
transformers for doing this but each is customized to the type of antenna 
and the frequency.

Be better yet if you can run it in conduit clear to where you are mounting 
the equipment.  Lots of factors would influence whether or not you would 
want to ground the shield and if so where.  The voltage on a grounded 
quarter wave stick goes from zero to infinity (in theory).  The main thing 
is to keep the AM current off the CAT 5 totally if you can.  If you cannot, 
you would want to bond the shield to the tower every 10 feet to keep the 
magnitude of the current low.

- Original Message - 
From: "Doug Ratcliffe" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 12:06 PM
Subject: [WISPA] POE up AM radio tower


> We've had for many years access to a non-live AM radio tower (by non-live, 
> the antennas are mounted on the sides of the tower, insulated, look like 
> long steel cables).  For a long time we ran AC to the top, into a small 
> choke/transformer (some little gizmo) that filtered the AM radio signal, 
> along with a fiber cable to the bottom.  A lightning strike zapped all the 
> equipment a few years ago, and we never replaced it.  The time has come 
> that we need to put equipment on it again.
>
> I'd like to move towards running POE to the bottom, and at the top would 
> be Nanostations 2/5's.  The tower is 160 ft tall self-supporting.  I was 
> thinking about running shielded twisted pair cable.  In the past we've 
> been able to run short lengths of CAT5 at the top from the main power box, 
> but the last time any experimentation was done with CAT5 was with a former 
> partner, and the now deceased engineer that used to run the radio station.
>
> Would the shielded cable remove the interference/static charge/etc or is 
> this just not possible?
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I generally characterize our "government", (to folks from other places where 
there is not so much freedom) as an insane giant robot that was originally 
created to work for us and is collectively owned by all of us.

We have hired hundreds of thousands of programmers and mechanics to fix it 
and enhance it and rid it of its insanity but none of the fixers talk to 
each other before trying out the latest release of firmware.

One guy will fix the foot and the hand starts smashing houses.

This analogy has gotten some interesting conversations started with folks 
from the middle east.

- Original Message - 
From: "Jeff Broadwick" 
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow


> "Government" is not a monolith, and to condemn it out of hand is
> unreasonable.  You can certainly go to local, even state government
> meetings, and express your opinion, and have an impact.  I've done so many
> times (and I also sit on the other side of the table on my local township
> board).  My issue is with the Feds, and it's the best reason to join a 
> group
> like Wispa.  There is no way that a small/medium sized provider can hope 
> to
> have any sort of a voice at that level, unless you happen to personally 
> know
> the chairman of the particular committee or sub-committee that effects 
> you.
> Possible, but unlikely.
>
> Happy New Year!
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Jack Unger
> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:29 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
>
> Jeff,
>
> I disagree (not with you but) with people who can do nothing but 
> mindlessly
> condemn "the government". The next time their house catches on fire they
> better forget all about calling the Fire Dept - after all, it's run by 
> "the
> government". When it snows they should stop expecting a snow plow to clear
> the road... snow plowing is provided by "the government". For that matter,
> they should stop expecting to drive on paved roads at all... roads are 
> built
> and maintained by "the government".
>
> People who mindlessly condemn "the government" are hypocrites, pure and
> simple. They take government help with one hand while loudly denouncing 
> what
> "the government" is doing for others. If these people were really good
> citizens, they would shut their mouths, get the act in gear and get out to
> some government meetings to politely and respectfully 1) express their
> opinions and 2) volunteer their time to work to help create positive 
> change
> in their community.
>
> jack
>
>
> Jeff Broadwick wrote:
>> I'm not sure what you disagree with here Jack.  Personally, I think
>> the less government involvement the better.  They will throw money at
>> people who have spent money lobbying them (likely not the small/medium
>> sized WISP).  The money will be used poorly in many/most cases and the
>> buildout will not have the desired effect.  Also, it is likely that
>> your competition will get the lion's share of the money, since many
>> WISPs serve as the only broadband provider in a small market.
>>
>> I think the RUS loans are a far better way of getting things done.  If
>> they want to subsidize something they can reduce the interest rate to
>> the borrower.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>   _
>>
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>> On Behalf Of Jack Unger
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:40 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
>>
>>
>>
>> ***  Everybody brings JOY to this list. Some by entering, some by
>> LEAVING
>> ***
>>
>>
>> rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote:
>>
>> I'm very, very, very  
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
> Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author -
> "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
> WISPs - Do you know where your customers are?
> For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic.
> #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile 
> Phone 818-227-4220  Email 
>
>
>
>
> 
> 
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Re: [WISPA] affordable solution for bridging two buildings

[Chuck McCown - 3]

What do you consider reasonable.
Dragonwave 24 G would be good.  Orthogon, Trango Giga, Ligowave.
If money is not an issue, I would go Dragonwave.  Licensed or unlicensed.
- Original Message - 
From: "Rogelio" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 2:16 PM
Subject: [WISPA] affordable solution for bridging two buildings


>A friend in my Linux user group is in charge of setting up the IT in a
> building that's about about a mile or so away, and he wants to bridge
> them via wireless rather than pay a monthly dedicated circuit between
> them. The number of end users there will be about 50 or so.
>
> He asked me what I would recommend, but I was only familiar with
> 802.11a/b/n gear that ran about $5K on each side and only got, on
> average, 30-35 Mbps. I told him that there might be better solutions out
> there that used a different frequency or more channels, as bandwidth is
> more important to him at this point rather than any particular frequency
> or brand. I'm hoping to find him something in the 50-100 Mbps range for
> something reasonable.
>
> Any ideas?  He wants to make sure that his solution is fairly rugged.
> It's southern CA (a little inland), so it's not too bad there, but I'm
> sure he wants to make sure that he gets a good 5-10 years on his 
> investment.
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Does anyone recycle cable?

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Not worth shipping unless you have a whole bunch.
Look up in your local yellow pages "metal recyclers" or scrap metal dealers.
They might take it off your hands, perhaps giving you a few dollars.  The 
problem is the ratio of insulation to copper.
Too much plastic, not enough copper.  If you were the type to ignore 
environmental concerns, you could toss it on a bonfire to burn off the 
plastic and rake out the copper.  That is how all the old scrap dealers did 
it.

- Original Message - 
From: "Martha Huizenga" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 9:47 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Does anyone recycle cable?


> We've been keeping our used ethernet cable for recycling. I found a
> couple of companies on the Internet, but no response. Does anyone have a
> place to recycle this?
>
> Thanks
>
> Martha
> -- 
>
> Martha Huizenga
> DC Access, LLC
> 202-546-5898
> */Friendly, Local, Affordable, Internet!/**/
> Connecting the Capitol Hill Community
>
> /*
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Lafayette LA, 10 Meg fiber, $28.95 / month.

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Have them check out iProvo to see how well that one went.
And then there is the fiasco called UTOPIA.  Muni networks have not been 
successful.
- Original Message - 
From: "Tom DeReggi" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Lafayette LA, 10 Meg fiber, $28.95 / month.


> Interesting. But sounds more like the municipality is competing against
> local providers as a for profit company.
>
> "Louisiana was finally getting close to offering municipal fiber to the
> home, after years of opposition from local incumbents. Though they've been
> tight lipped on pricing, local papers are now reporting that Lafayette
> Utilities System will offer triple play bundles ranging from $84.85 to 
> $200"
>
> Non related Question to ask self? What would it be worth to the 
> government,
> to be able to control all communications to and from all residents within
> their governed land? Is Muni Triple Play a good thing? Abort question. OK,
> won't go there tonight.
>
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "John Thomas" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 6:45 PM
> Subject: [WISPA] Lafayette LA, 10 Meg fiber, $28.95 / month.
>
>
>>
>> Have you guys in Louisiana heard about this?
>>
>> http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Lafayette-Unveils-FTTH-Pricing-99838
>>
>>
>> 
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>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1866 - Release Date:
>> 12/27/2008 8:49 PM
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] wholesale bandwidth

[Chuck McCown - 3]

How about a composite fiber map?
- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Webster" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] wholesale bandwidth


> You know it might be a good idea to compile a list of companies for
> bandwidth and place it on the WISPA site.
>
>
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 10:37 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] wholesale bandwidth
>
>
> Wow, and who says there's not fiber in rural America?
>
> Cooperative's Broadband Network has a significant amount of Missouri along
> with parts of Arkansas and Oklahoma covered...
>
> Fiber is out there people, you just have to look for it.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Mark McElvy" 
> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:01 AM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] wholesale bandwidth
>
>> ShowMe Power
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 12:06 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] wholesale bandwidth
>>
>> If you let me know who that carrier is, I can help you out.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Mark McElvy" 
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:18 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] wholesale bandwidth
>>
>>> I am in Salem, MO but I have Fibre to my office. My Fibre carrier has
>>> POP's in Rolla and St Louis so if I can find some cheap bandwidth they
>>> can transport for me.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>> On
>>> Behalf Of David E. Smith
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 4:48 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] wholesale bandwidth
>>>
>>> Mark McElvy wrote:
 I am looking for wholesale bandwidth providers to either St Louis or
 Rolla Missouri.
>>>
>>> Do you need it delivered to your door, or just "somewhere" in town?
>>> Saint Louis has a couple downtown telco-hotel facilities (900 Walnut
>> and
>>>
>>> 210 Tucker, I think); you should be able to rent rack space and get
>>> basically as much connectivity as you want there.
>>>
>>> David Smith
>>> MVN.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>>> 
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
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>> --
> --
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> -

[WISPA] Illinois GUV running this survey

[Chuck McCown - 3]

  Redline 286 0.29% 
  Alvarion 4030 4.15% 
  Ubiquity 1778 1.83% 
  Canopy 43767 45.09% 
  Other 8326 8.58% 
  Trango 11352 11.70% 
  Tranzeo 12779 13.17% 
  MT 14746 15.19% 
 97064 100.00% 
   
  Responses 96  




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Re: [WISPA] AT&T Cell Band

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Wilson Electronics makes some of the best systems I know of.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Brownson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] AT&T Cell Band


> Both of the guys below are ok for your home or small business but can't
> handle 100,000 sq ft warehouse.  That calls for manufacturers like 
> Dekolink,
> CSI, Andrew, Mobile Access and such.  With the higher gain systems to fill
> such a large space you can't just amp the whole spectrum or you create a 
> lot
> of noise.  So usually the systems need to be band specific for just the
> carrier you are looking to use.  Since this applications is just for AT&T
> that's simple.  Even if they are using both 800 and 1950 in the area these
> systems can amplify both separately and combine them into a single
> distribution system.  Very cool technology.  There's even some systems 
> that
> use optical fiber to distribute the RF signal to remote amplifiers.  But
> that's generally for spaces larger or more complex that a 100,000 sq ft 
> box.
>
> Mike B
>
>
> On 12/8/08 4:42 PM, "CHUCK  PROFITO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>>  http://www.primecellular.comfor cell repeaters or
>> http://www.alternativewireless.com/cellular-antennas/cell_phone_power_booste
>> rs.html
>>
>> Chuck Profito
>> 209-988-7388
>> CV-ACCESS, INC
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Providing High Speed Broadband
>> to Rural Central California
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Patrick Nix Jr.
>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:55 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: [WISPA] AT&T Cell Band
>>
>> Anyone know what band AT&T uses for cell service? I have a client that
>> needs cell amplifiers put in a 100,000 sqft warehouse they just changed
>> from Nextel to AT&T.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> __
>>
>>
>>
>> Patrick Nix, Jr.,
>>
>> csweb.net
>>
>> (918) 235-0414
>>
>> http://www.csweb.net 
>>
>> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> ATTENTION: This e-mail may contain information that is confidential in
>> nature. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail
>> and notify the sender immediately. Thank you.
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>>
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>>
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>> --
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>> --
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>
> -- 
> Mike Brownson
> Hutton Communications
> 5015 Paris St
> Denver, CO 80239
> 303-373-3170
>
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended 
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[WISPA] survey says

[Chuck McCown - 3]

  Brand # Subs % By Subs 
  Redline 286 0.30% 
  Alvarion 4027 4.24% 
  Ubiquity 1778 1.87% 
  Canopy 41617 43.85% 
  Other 8316 8.76% 
  Trango 11352 11.96% 
  Tranzeo 12779 13.47% 
  MT 14746 15.54% 
  Total 94901 100.00% 
   
  Responses 93  




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Re: [WISPA] Where is JAB when we need them

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Probably the largest WISP in the US.  Mostly Canopy based.
We don't have their numbers in the survey.

- Original Message - 
From: "Jeff Broadwick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Where is JAB when we need them


> JAB?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Chuck McCown
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:57 PM
> To: wireless@wispa.org
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WISPA] Where is JAB when we need them
>
>  Redline 286 0.334058
>  Alvarion 4027 4.70367
>  Ubiquity 1728 2.018361
>  Canopy 38583 45.06623
>  Other 7816 9.129348
>  Trango 11252 13.14271
>  Tranzeo 10029 11.71421
>  MT 11893 13.89142
>  Total 85614 100
>
>  Responses 85
>
>
> 
> 
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[WISPA] Massive Fraud - Ballot Boxes Stuffed! ;-

[Chuck McCown - 3]

  Brand # Subs % By Subs 
  Redline 286 0.37% 
  Alvarion 3527 4.60% 
  Ubiquity 1668 2.18% 
  Canopy 34893 45.53% 
  Other 6231 8.13% 
  Trango 10167 13.27% 
  Tranzeo 9979 13.02% 
  MT 9892 12.91% 
  Total 76643 100.00% 
   
  Responses 77  




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Re: [WISPA] buyer's remorse and cognitive dissonance

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Yep, we all do it.

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] buyer's remorse and cognitive dissonance


>> It is a well documented phenomena by economists and consumer scientists
>> that
>> once a person makes a choice that is hard or impossible to reverse they
>> must
>> then become an evangelist for that choice.  Even if it becomes a wrong
>> choice due to no fault of their own, they will continue to to exhibit the
>> bandwagon effect.
>>
>
> Exactly, why so many canopy users must stay evangelists to the product 
> that
> they are so heavilly engrossed in deploying and selling. :-)
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:53 PM
> Subject: [WISPA] buyer's remorse and cognitive dissonance
>
>
>> Irrespective of what type of infrastructure you pick, once you pick it 
>> you
>> are somewhat stuck.
>> The farther down that road you go, the more you are stuck.
>>
>> Many things are like this.
>> A spouse, a religion, a branch of the armed forces, a class 5 end office
>> switch, a house, an investment, a college, a president.
>> Canopy V Trango V Tranzeo V  MT etc etc.
>>
>> It is a well documented phenomena by economists and consumer scientists
>> that
>> once a person makes a choice that is hard or impossible to reverse they
>> must
>> then become an evangelist for that choice.  Even if it becomes a wrong
>> choice due to no fault of their own, they will continue to to exhibit the
>> bandwagon effect.
>>
>> To actually be rational and objective in the face of a major mistake
>> requires one to overcome congnitive dissonance and that is just not
>> natural
>> human behavior.  I know guys that are much quicker to get a divorce than
>> to
>> admit they bought the wrong CO switch.
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
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>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1833 - Release Date: 
>> 12/5/2008
>> 7:08 PM
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] Fw: [Motorola II] 60% Canopy

[Chuck McCown - 3]

This got started because I made a comment that Mot claims about half the 
market and that claim was doubted.
It doesn't matter, just something fun.

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Fw: [Motorola II] 60% Canopy


> I'm not at all surprized if Motorola has majority share.
> What I ask is "what does that mater any how?"
> Motorola has a great distribution channel. And marketing and sales control
> market share penetration more than technical merits of the gear.
> Its so easy for a WISP to just jump on the bandwagon with the big name
> brand.
>
> What would be more interesting would be the financials of the companies 
> that
> reported what gear they used.
>
> Which are more profitable? Users of MT, StarOS, Trango, Motorola, 
> Alvarion?
> Which WISP's had higher percent Customer Satisfaction? Users of x, y ,z ?
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:27 PM
> Subject: [WISPA] Fw: [Motorola II] 60% Canopy
>
>
>>A statistically significant sample is defined as a population over 30.
>> For an off the cuff sample it isn't bad at all.
>>
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "Motorola Canopy User Group" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Cc: 
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 6:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Motorola II] 60% Canopy
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 6 Dec 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>But as it is, I think this is a fairly good sampling.
>>>>
>>>> Looks like 35 responses...not sure I'd call that a "fairly good
>>>> sampling".
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> 
>>>> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
>>>> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
>>>> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
>>>> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
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>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1833 - Release Date: 
>> 12/5/2008
>> 7:08 PM
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled forLaunchin2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Maybe for leo.  There are some nasty atmospheric absorption bands and 
ionospheric effects that pretty much limits you to 30 GHz and below for geo. 
I know the navy uses FSO with lasers to satellites but that is pretty 
exotic.

Are you predicting the end of the world as we know it?
Shall I get my nikes and koolaid?

- Original Message - 
From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled 
forLaunchin2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech


>I predict we will see FSO and millimeter wave used on satellite Internet
> delivery within the next 5 years (rain fade and all). You can call me
> Netstradamus.   :-)
> Scriv
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 11:06 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>
>> I don't think any FSO or millimeter wave will work from geosynchronous
>> orbit.  Too much rain fade.  I would think X band will be the upper 
>> limit.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for
>> Launchin2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech
>>
>>
>> > Spot beams for frequency reuse, FSO, millimeter wave. I can see a few
>> ways
>> > to do terabytes per second.
>> > Scriv
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Is that even possible.  What is the best modulation method currently 
>> >> in
>> >> use?
>> >> Divide 100 Gig by the best modulation method and then someone please
>> tell
>> >> me
>> >> there is a space segment that broad that can legally be used.
>> >>
>> >> - Original Message -
>> >> From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> >> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 8:07 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for
>> Launch
>> >> in2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > bahahahahahahahaha
>> >> >
>> >> > In 3 years 100gig won't be nearly enough for 2mil subs.
>> >> >
>> >> > Sure be nice to have a good sat up there though.
>> >> > marlon
>> >> >
>> >> > - Original Message -
>> >> > From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> > To: "WISPA General List" 
>> >> > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:48 PM
>> >> > Subject: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for 
>> >> > Launch
>> >> > in
>> >> > 2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> http://tech.yahoo.com/news/pcworld/20081206/tc_pcworld/usbroadbandinternetsatellitescheduledforlaunchin2011
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The satellite will an overall throughput of 100G bps (bits per
>> second)
>> >> >> and that should enable it to support 2M bps service to about 2
>> million
>> >> >> subscribers when operational.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It is expected to be the highest capacity satellite in the world at
>> >> >> time
>> >> >> of launch, and that should mean the price of transmitting each bit 
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> data is about a tenth that of current services. In turn this should
>> >> >> enable broadband Internet services at much lower prices than now,
>> >> >> according to the company.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> While ViaSat will own the satellite it intends on relying on other
>> >> >> companies to offer the Internet service.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> 
>> >> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> >> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> ---

Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite ScheduledforLaunchin2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I guess it is for real:
http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/VSAT/0x0x225385/D0B62404-B5EF-4F07-A4E0-EC151C5A7256/ViaSat_2008_AR_lores.pdf

They admit that using conventional technology this sat would use more than 
all the other bands put together.  I think they are futzing with the total 
throughput numbers by using caching or something.  Hard to tell by reading 
the document.  But at least they will still have latency.

- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite 
ScheduledforLaunchin2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech


> Lets assume some kind of fantastic modulator and demodulator exists that 
> can
> do 10 bps per hz with real world Eb/No.
> That means the bandwidth of the space segment would be 10 GHz.  That means
> DC to 10 GHz would be required.  Or pretty much all the beachfront 
> property
> available in the sky.
>
> Spot beams might cut that by a factor of 10 again, but that would still
> require a 1 GHz slice of space segment.  Where on the ITU spectrum
> allocation chart is there 1 GHz (below say 18 GHz) available?  It may be
> there but I don't know about it.  Most allocations are 100 MHz wide.  A 1
> GHz slice would occupy a whole slice.  And with a million earth stations 
> out
> there there will sure to be some that are not aimed or polarized right so
> this will crud up the uplinks for nearby satellites.  And all of this
> assumes 10 bps per Hz.  It will be more like half that or lower.
>
> Sounds like pie in the sky smoke and mirrors to me.  They should disclose
> their technology.  Actually, if they have filed for frequencies it will be
> public.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled
> forLaunchin2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech
>
>
>>I don't think any FSO or millimeter wave will work from geosynchronous
>> orbit.  Too much rain fade.  I would think X band will be the upper 
>> limit.
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for
>> Launchin2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech
>>
>>
>>> Spot beams for frequency reuse, FSO, millimeter wave. I can see a few
>>> ways
>>> to do terabytes per second.
>>> Scriv
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is that even possible.  What is the best modulation method currently in
>>>> use?
>>>> Divide 100 Gig by the best modulation method and then someone please
>>>> tell
>>>> me
>>>> there is a space segment that broad that can legally be used.
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 8:07 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for
>>>> Launch
>>>> in2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > bahahahahahahahaha
>>>> >
>>>> > In 3 years 100gig won't be nearly enough for 2mil subs.
>>>> >
>>>> > Sure be nice to have a good sat up there though.
>>>> > marlon
>>>> >
>>>> > - Original Message -
>>>> > From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> > To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:48 PM
>>>> > Subject: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for Launch
>>>> > in
>>>> > 2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> http://tech.yahoo.com/news/pcworld/20081206/tc_pcworld/usbroadbandinternetsatellitescheduledforlaunchin2011
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The satellite will an overall throughput of 100G bps (bits per
>>>> >> second)
>>>> >> and that should enable it to support 2M bps service to about 2
>>>>

Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled forLaunchin2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Lets assume some kind of fantastic modulator and demodulator exists that can 
do 10 bps per hz with real world Eb/No.
That means the bandwidth of the space segment would be 10 GHz.  That means 
DC to 10 GHz would be required.  Or pretty much all the beachfront property 
available in the sky.

Spot beams might cut that by a factor of 10 again, but that would still 
require a 1 GHz slice of space segment.  Where on the ITU spectrum 
allocation chart is there 1 GHz (below say 18 GHz) available?  It may be 
there but I don't know about it.  Most allocations are 100 MHz wide.  A 1 
GHz slice would occupy a whole slice.  And with a million earth stations out 
there there will sure to be some that are not aimed or polarized right so 
this will crud up the uplinks for nearby satellites.  And all of this 
assumes 10 bps per Hz.  It will be more like half that or lower.

Sounds like pie in the sky smoke and mirrors to me.  They should disclose 
their technology.  Actually, if they have filed for frequencies it will be 
public.

- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled 
forLaunchin2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech


>I don't think any FSO or millimeter wave will work from geosynchronous
> orbit.  Too much rain fade.  I would think X band will be the upper limit.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for
> Launchin2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech
>
>
>> Spot beams for frequency reuse, FSO, millimeter wave. I can see a few 
>> ways
>> to do terabytes per second.
>> Scriv
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Is that even possible.  What is the best modulation method currently in
>>> use?
>>> Divide 100 Gig by the best modulation method and then someone please 
>>> tell
>>> me
>>> there is a space segment that broad that can legally be used.
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 8:07 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for 
>>> Launch
>>> in2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech
>>>
>>>
>>> > bahahahahahahahaha
>>> >
>>> > In 3 years 100gig won't be nearly enough for 2mil subs.
>>> >
>>> > Sure be nice to have a good sat up there though.
>>> > marlon
>>> >
>>> > - Original Message -
>>> > From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> > To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:48 PM
>>> > Subject: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for Launch
>>> > in
>>> > 2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> http://tech.yahoo.com/news/pcworld/20081206/tc_pcworld/usbroadbandinternetsatellitescheduledforlaunchin2011
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> The satellite will an overall throughput of 100G bps (bits per 
>>> >> second)
>>> >> and that should enable it to support 2M bps service to about 2 
>>> >> million
>>> >> subscribers when operational.
>>> >>
>>> >> It is expected to be the highest capacity satellite in the world at
>>> >> time
>>> >> of launch, and that should mean the price of transmitting each bit of
>>> >> data is about a tenth that of current services. In turn this should
>>> >> enable broadband Internet services at much lower prices than now,
>>> >> according to the company.
>>> >>
>>> >> While ViaSat will own the satellite it intends on relying on other
>>> >> companies to offer the Internet service.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> 
>>> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> >>
>>> 

Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for Launchin2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I don't think any FSO or millimeter wave will work from geosynchronous 
orbit.  Too much rain fade.  I would think X band will be the upper limit.

- Original Message - 
From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for 
Launchin2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech


> Spot beams for frequency reuse, FSO, millimeter wave. I can see a few ways
> to do terabytes per second.
> Scriv
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>
>> Is that even possible.  What is the best modulation method currently in
>> use?
>> Divide 100 Gig by the best modulation method and then someone please tell
>> me
>> there is a space segment that broad that can legally be used.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 8:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for Launch
>> in2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech
>>
>>
>> > bahahahahahahahaha
>> >
>> > In 3 years 100gig won't be nearly enough for 2mil subs.
>> >
>> > Sure be nice to have a good sat up there though.
>> > marlon
>> >
>> > - Original Message -
>> > From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: "WISPA General List" 
>> > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:48 PM
>> > Subject: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for Launch 
>> > in
>> > 2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> http://tech.yahoo.com/news/pcworld/20081206/tc_pcworld/usbroadbandinternetsatellitescheduledforlaunchin2011
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The satellite will an overall throughput of 100G bps (bits per second)
>> >> and that should enable it to support 2M bps service to about 2 million
>> >> subscribers when operational.
>> >>
>> >> It is expected to be the highest capacity satellite in the world at 
>> >> time
>> >> of launch, and that should mean the price of transmitting each bit of
>> >> data is about a tenth that of current services. In turn this should
>> >> enable broadband Internet services at much lower prices than now,
>> >> according to the company.
>> >>
>> >> While ViaSat will own the satellite it intends on relying on other
>> >> companies to offer the Internet service.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> 
>> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> >>
>> 
>> >>
>> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> >>
>> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>> >>
>> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> > http://signup.wispa.org/
>> >
>> 
>> >
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>> >
>> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>> >
>> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
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>>
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>
>
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> 




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[WISPA] Giant Map

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I would still like to see the giant map done.
Personally I would trust WISPA as a trusted third party to hold confidential 
data for aggregation purposes.
And if others didn't trust WISPA, WISPA could hire a CPA firm to hold the 
data.  Wouldn't cost that much.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mac Dearman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Motorola Canopy User Group'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Book1.xls


> See in line comments for my sanities sake :)
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> Behalf Of Chuck McCown
>>
>> Some use multiple technologies mixed.  34 use canopy.  I have sent the
>> detail.  Looks believable to me.
>
> [Mac says] I to use mixed technologies and the numbers just took me by
> surprise. I was not looking to see an average sub count anywhere near that
> number per WISP. It makes me smile all over to see this kind of numbers
> associated with that many WISPs. It reassures me that we (the wireless
> industry) is healthy and moving ahead in the world.
>
>>
>> I guess the is the problem, I state a metric, like Mot reports having
>> half
>> the market.  So someone says they are full of crap and that nobody can
>> believe something like that.
>> (Part of being an evangelist for a choice is to reject, discredit or
>> suppress information that holds the alternates in a good light).
>
> [Mac says]  I agree with that comment 100%. I think it called "human 
> nature"
> when we defend what we believe in and I believe (part of the time) that 
> what
> I am doing is the absolute right thing and I will stand up for it :)
>
>
>>
>> So I do a very off-the-cuff non scientific study trusting that folks
>> will be
>> honest.
>
> [Mac says]  Well - as I stated earlier - THANKS for the survey. I would 
> like
> to see a larger sampling though and let it run longer just to see how many
> subs we (WISPs) actually have onboard. If we all stand together - united -
> we can accomplish a lot of good for the industry. This TVWS that we 
> (WISPA)
> is currently working on didn't become a reality for all of us due to 
> WISPAs
> just sitting back and not speaking up! We need numbers even if it is an
> honest "off the cuff" survey. You did good Chuck!
>
>
>>
>> One question for you Mac:
>> Are you saying everyone is equally stretching the truth?
>> Are Canopy users less honest than Trango or MT users?
>> I would presume that the MT or Trango would be the ones stretching the
>> truth...
>> 
>
> [Mac says] Well - - I wouldn't tend to think that the Moto guys are any 
> less
> truthful than the rest of the guys :) unless the Rf from the Moto gear has
> done something to your brains :)   I guess I was taken by surprise by the
> averages of all. If anyone took offense - I apologize because that was not
> my intent. If those are honestly truthful (or even close) numbers - - this
> industry and the amount of subs we serve collectively is very large - - -
> makes me smile!!
>
>
>
>>
>> How far do you reckon that folks have stretched their numbers?  I'll be
>> happy to put my name by my number.
>>
>> Personally, I think everyone at WISPA is honest and we have a very
>> honest
>> sampling.  I was only testing the hypothesis that Canopy represents
>> about
>> half the WISP market.  Or really, more formally I was attempting to
>> prove
>> the null hypothesis that all manufacturers are equally likely to be
>> supplying the market.
>> I have not proved the null hypothesis.  Actually, I think it is
>> rejected.
>
> [Mac says] I don't know anyone in Louisiana utilizing Canopy today. I am
> sure there are some operators somewhere here that do - I just don't know
> where they are. You know that my going Motorola is one of the two choices
> (the other being go WiMAX)I will make in the next week.
>
>
>
>>
>> We can get into confidence intervals and margin of errors (which would
>> probably be about 12% for a survey like this) and ANOVA and Chi and a
>> bunch
>> of other stuff I have suppressed in a dusty corner of my noggin, but
>> really,
>> I was just looking for a general feel.
>
>
> [Mac says] I think it was a great idea and needs to be duplicated on all 
> the
> lists. I know Brian Webster has been talking about trying to get some of
> this data together along with the demographics of the areas we serve. I
> think it would be a great idea as well as very helpful when we visit the
> FCC!
>
> Mac
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Mac Dearman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Motorola II] [WISPA] Book1.xls
>>
>>
>> > Chuck,
>> >
>> >
>> >  I think someone (read - as in very many) have stretched the truth
>> with
>> > your survey. I could be wrong, (not the first time) but according to
>> your
>> > poll the 43 WISPs have an average of 1153.418 subscribers each!
>> >
>> >
>> > It appears that 27 of the 43 WISPs used Canop

Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Book1.xls

[Chuck McCown - 3]

That's odd.  I don't think anyone else has reported a problem.
Here is the latest summary.

  Brand # Subs % By Subs
  Redline 286 0.49%
  Alvarion 3523 6.09%
  Ubiquity 1140 1.97%
  Canopy 34373 59.38%
  Other 4585 7.92%
  Trango 9276 16.02%
  MT 4707 8.13%
  Total 57890 100.00%

  Responses 66



- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


>I tired but it wouldn't let me submit my answers.  kept saying that I 
>needed
> to put in a positive number.  I even tried putting 0 into all open fields.
> Oh well.
> 6 alvarion
> 200 or so smartbridges are probably still out there.
> 300 to 400 tranzeo
> a handful of trango.
> at least 6 different brands of ap's.  More and more MT for that though.
> marlon




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Re: [WISPA] Article

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Heck I just plugged in an 8087 and am good another decade or two...

- Original Message - 
From: "RickG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


> 286? When did you upgrade from your 8088? :)
> 




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Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for Launch in2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Is that even possible.  What is the best modulation method currently in use?
Divide 100 Gig by the best modulation method and then someone please tell me 
there is a space segment that broad that can legally be used.

- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for Launch 
in2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech


> bahahahahahahahaha
>
> In 3 years 100gig won't be nearly enough for 2mil subs.
>
> Sure be nice to have a good sat up there though.
> marlon
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:48 PM
> Subject: [WISPA] US Broadband Internet Satellite Scheduled for Launch in
> 2011 (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech
>
>
>> http://tech.yahoo.com/news/pcworld/20081206/tc_pcworld/usbroadbandinternetsatellitescheduledforlaunchin2011
>>
>>
>> The satellite will an overall throughput of 100G bps (bits per second)
>> and that should enable it to support 2M bps service to about 2 million
>> subscribers when operational.
>>
>> It is expected to be the highest capacity satellite in the world at time
>> of launch, and that should mean the price of transmitting each bit of
>> data is about a tenth that of current services. In turn this should
>> enable broadband Internet services at much lower prices than now,
>> according to the company.
>>
>> While ViaSat will own the satellite it intends on relying on other
>> companies to offer the Internet service.
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
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>
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>
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> 




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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Responses URL

[Chuck McCown - 3]

OK, I just reset the username and password to wispa for both.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Doug Clark 
  To: Motorola Canopy User Group 
  Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 4:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [Motorola II] Responses URL


needs a username and pass

---Original Message---

From: Chuck McCown - 3
Date: 12/7/2008 4:31:08 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Motorola II] Responses URL

Not totally sure if you-all can access this URL.  It is where the survey
responses are.
When I click it it goes right to it.  But it may have cached my IP or I
might have a cookie so it isn't requiring a username or password.
Would someone please check this to see if the results are open to all?  
I
would like to stop posting results.


http://www.surveymonkey.com/MySurvey_Responses.aspx?sm=f6cSXMKeyXpSb0395Ht13XtM4WIBZ%2f9DRPBmLDf1oFxHSQvbSW8jDUVclmIZWkY4
   
  
   



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[WISPA] Responses URL

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Not totally sure if you-all can access this URL.  It is where the survey 
responses are.
When I click it it goes right to it.  But it may have cached my IP or I 
might have a cookie so it isn't requiring a username or password.
Would someone please check this to see if the results are open to all?  I 
would like to stop posting results.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/MySurvey_Responses.aspx?sm=f6cSXMKeyXpSb0395Ht13XtM4WIBZ%2f9DRPBmLDf1oFxHSQvbSW8jDUVclmIZWkY4
 




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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Book1.xls

[Chuck McCown - 3]

It started on the Motorola mailing list?  Really?
News to me.
I thought it was started at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
So where is the Alvarion and Trango mailing list?
Perhaps you should start one there.  Or invite them to participate?

But I restate my earlier prognostication, human nature requires you to 
suppress or dismiss that which causes cognitive dissonance...


- Original Message - 
From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Motorola Canopy User Group" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Motorola II] [WISPA] Book1.xls


>I don't  believe this to be a real survey (so far). The entire survey has 
>only been running over a weekend, and was started on the Motorola mailing 
>list. I would suggest that it runs for another week and then let's see.
>
> If I remember correctly, there are some very large Alvarion WISPs that I 
> know have not responded... as well as Trango and others.
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>> Some use multiple technologies mixed.  34 use canopy.  I have sent the 
>> detail.  Looks believable to me.
>>
>> I guess the is the problem, I state a metric, like Mot reports having 
>> half the market.  So someone says they are full of crap and that nobody 
>> can believe something like that.
>> (Part of being an evangelist for a choice is to reject, discredit or 
>> suppress information that holds the alternates in a good light).
>>
>> So I do a very off-the-cuff non scientific study trusting that folks will 
>> be honest.
>>
>> One question for you Mac:
>> Are you saying everyone is equally stretching the truth?
>> Are Canopy users less honest than Trango or MT users?
>> I would presume that the MT or Trango would be the ones stretching the 
>> truth...
>> 
>>
>> How far do you reckon that folks have stretched their numbers?  I'll be 
>> happy to put my name by my number.
>>
>> Personally, I think everyone at WISPA is honest and we have a very honest 
>> sampling.  I was only testing the hypothesis that Canopy represents about 
>> half the WISP market.  Or really, more formally I was attempting to prove 
>> the null hypothesis that all manufacturers are equally likely to be 
>> supplying the market.
>> I have not proved the null hypothesis.  Actually, I think it is rejected.
>>
>> We can get into confidence intervals and margin of errors (which would 
>> probably be about 12% for a survey like this) and ANOVA and Chi and a 
>> bunch of other stuff I have suppressed in a dusty corner of my noggin, 
>> but really, I was just looking for a general feel.
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Mac Dearman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Motorola II] [WISPA] Book1.xls
>>
>>
>>> Chuck,
>>>
>>>
>>>  I think someone (read - as in very many) have stretched the truth with
>>> your survey. I could be wrong, (not the first time) but according to 
>>> your
>>> poll the 43 WISPs have an average of 1153.418 subscribers each!
>>>
>>>
>>> It appears that 27 of the 43 WISPs used Canopy and those 27 ISPs count 
>>> for
>>> a total of 1162.3 subs each while the total of the rest of the WISPs
>>> combined (16) have an average of 1138.3 subscribers
>>>
>>> I guess there could be some really huge WISPs out here that participated 
>>> in
>>> the survey that I am not aware of.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cool survey & THANKS!!
>>>
>>> Mac
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>>> Behalf Of Chuck McCown
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 2:43 PM
>>>> To: wireless@wispa.org
>>>> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> Subject: [WISPA] Book1.xls
>>>>
>>>> Got tired of adding it up each time.
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1833 - Release Date:
>>>> 12/6/2008 4:55 PM
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> 




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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Book1.xls

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Some use multiple technologies mixed.  34 use canopy.  I have sent the 
detail.  Looks believable to me.

I guess the is the problem, I state a metric, like Mot reports having half 
the market.  So someone says they are full of crap and that nobody can 
believe something like that.
(Part of being an evangelist for a choice is to reject, discredit or 
suppress information that holds the alternates in a good light).

So I do a very off-the-cuff non scientific study trusting that folks will be 
honest.

One question for you Mac:
Are you saying everyone is equally stretching the truth?
Are Canopy users less honest than Trango or MT users?
I would presume that the MT or Trango would be the ones stretching the 
truth...


How far do you reckon that folks have stretched their numbers?  I'll be 
happy to put my name by my number.

Personally, I think everyone at WISPA is honest and we have a very honest 
sampling.  I was only testing the hypothesis that Canopy represents about 
half the WISP market.  Or really, more formally I was attempting to prove 
the null hypothesis that all manufacturers are equally likely to be 
supplying the market.
I have not proved the null hypothesis.  Actually, I think it is rejected.

We can get into confidence intervals and margin of errors (which would 
probably be about 12% for a survey like this) and ANOVA and Chi and a bunch 
of other stuff I have suppressed in a dusty corner of my noggin, but really, 
I was just looking for a general feel.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mac Dearman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Motorola II] [WISPA] Book1.xls


> Chuck,
>
>
>  I think someone (read - as in very many) have stretched the truth with
> your survey. I could be wrong, (not the first time) but according to your
> poll the 43 WISPs have an average of 1153.418 subscribers each!
>
>
> It appears that 27 of the 43 WISPs used Canopy and those 27 ISPs count for
> a total of 1162.3 subs each while the total of the rest of the WISPs
> combined (16) have an average of 1138.3 subscribers
>
> I guess there could be some really huge WISPs out here that participated 
> in
> the survey that I am not aware of.
>
>
> Cool survey & THANKS!!
>
> Mac
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Chuck McCown
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 2:43 PM
>> To: wireless@wispa.org
>> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: [WISPA] Book1.xls
>>
>> Got tired of adding it up each time.
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1833 - Release Date:
>> 12/6/2008 4:55 PM
>
> 




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[WISPA] canopy response detail

[Chuck McCown - 3]

 1. 55  Sun, 12/7/08 3:08 PM
 2. 1550  Sun, 12/7/08 1:36 PM
 3. 150  Sun, 12/7/08 12:31 PM
 4. 250  Sun, 12/7/08 10:22 AM
 5. 1800  Sun, 12/7/08 8:55 AM
 6. 850  Sun, 12/7/08 8:09 AM
 7. 8  Sun, 12/7/08 7:26 AM
 8. 370  Sat, 12/6/08 8:46 PM
 9. 7200  Sat, 12/6/08 6:45 PM
 10. 1790  Sat, 12/6/08 5:08 PM
 11. 1163  Sat, 12/6/08 4:57 PM
 12. 15  Sat, 12/6/08 4:37 PM
 13. 1200  Sat, 12/6/08 3:56 PM
 14. 1060  Sat, 12/6/08 2:21 PM
 15. 5  Sat, 12/6/08 1:13 PM
 16. 500  Sat, 12/6/08 11:37 AM
 17. 100  Sat, 12/6/08 11:36 AM
 18. 110  Sat, 12/6/08 11:26 AM
 19. 530  Sat, 12/6/08 11:26 AM
 20. 3000  Sat, 12/6/08 11:26 AM
 21. 390  Sat, 12/6/08 11:11 AM
 22. 1000  Sat, 12/6/08 11:06 AM
 23. 65  Sat, 12/6/08 10:56 AM
 24. 960  Sat, 12/6/08 10:22 AM
 25. 175  Sat, 12/6/08 10:13 AM
 26. 900  Sat, 12/6/08 10:08 AM
 27. 52  Sat, 12/6/08 9:41 AM
 28. 780  Sat, 12/6/08 9:16 AM
 29. 60  Sat, 12/6/08 9:14 AM
 30. 300  Sat, 12/6/08 9:12 AM
 31. 350  Sat, 12/6/08 9:11 AM
 32. 1100  Sat, 12/6/08 9:01 AM
 33. 5100  Sat, 12/6/08 8:57 AM
 34. 50  Sat, 12/6/08 8:56 AM
10 responses per page 25 responses per page 50 responses per page 
100 responses per page 250 responses per page
<>


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[WISPA] Breakdown by number of subs

[Chuck McCown - 3]

<>


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[WISPA] Breakdown by response

[Chuck McCown - 3]

<>


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[WISPA] survey

[Chuck McCown - 3]

  Brand # Subs % By Subs 
  Redline 286 0.56% 
  Alvarion 938 1.83% 
  Ubiquity 960 1.88% 
  Canopy 32933 64.39% 
  Other 4345 8.49% 
  Trango 8217 16.06% 
  MT 3471 6.79% 
  Total 51150 100.00% 
   
  Responses 47  




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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] 60% Canopy

[Chuck McCown - 3]

This is totally anonymous.
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=3CNTqbd_2fbD514WncbPQuWA_3d_3d

It will be some time before I can update the results again.

- Original Message - 
From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] 60% Canopy


>I must have missed the post telling what the survey is and how to be part 
>of
> it. I will answer the questions if someone sends me that info.
> Thanks,
> Scriv
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Butch Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 6 Dec 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>
>> >Perhaps if we get a few more MT might edge above 14%...
>>
>> Perhaps, but don't assume I have a dog in this fight.  I'm not tied
>> to MT in any way.  ;-)  I have customers using Trango, Canopy,
>> Alvarion, MT, StarOS and more.
>>
>> --
>> 
>> * Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
>> * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
>> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
>> * http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> 
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>> 
>>
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>>
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>>
>
>
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[WISPA] Still 65%

[Chuck McCown - 3]

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[WISPA] duplicates

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I don't know why we are getting duplicates.  Sorry.  Hope it doesn't 
continue. 




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Re: [WISPA] Fw: [Motorola II] 60% Canopy

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Anyone can make a surveymonkey survey for free.  Just go to the site and 
create one.  I have participated in several before but this is the first one 
I made.  I would have done it a little different if I knew how to use the 
options better.  Go give it a try.  Data gathering is interesting and I 
think it is good for all of us.

- Original Message - 
From: "RickG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Fw: [Motorola II] 60% Canopy


>I like the survey idea to pole for other questions. Has anyone done this 
>before?
> -RickG
>
> On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 8:27 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>> A statistically significant sample is defined as a population over 30.
>> For an off the cuff sample it isn't bad at all.
>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "Motorola Canopy User Group" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Cc: 
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 6:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Motorola II] 60% Canopy
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 6 Dec 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>But as it is, I think this is a fairly good sampling.
>>>>
>>>> Looks like 35 responses...not sure I'd call that a "fairly good
>>>> sampling".
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> 
>>>> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
>>>> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
>>>> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
>>>> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> 
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>>
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>
>
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[WISPA] buyer's remorse and cognitive dissonance

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Irrespective of what type of infrastructure you pick, once you pick it you 
are somewhat stuck.
The farther down that road you go, the more you are stuck.

Many things are like this.
A spouse, a religion, a branch of the armed forces, a class 5 end office 
switch, a house, an investment, a college, a president.
Canopy V Trango V Tranzeo V  MT etc etc.

It is a well documented phenomena by economists and consumer scientists that 
once a person makes a choice that is hard or impossible to reverse they must 
then become an evangelist for that choice.  Even if it becomes a wrong 
choice due to no fault of their own, they will continue to to exhibit the 
bandwagon effect.

To actually be rational and objective in the face of a major mistake 
requires one to overcome congnitive dissonance and that is just not natural 
human behavior.  I know guys that are much quicker to get a divorce than to 
admit they bought the wrong CO switch. 




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[WISPA] Fw: [Motorola II] 60% Canopy

[Chuck McCown - 3]

A statistically significant sample is defined as a population over 30.
For an off the cuff sample it isn't bad at all.
 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Motorola Canopy User Group" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 6:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Motorola II] 60% Canopy
> 
> 
>> On Sat, 6 Dec 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>> 
>>>But as it is, I think this is a fairly good sampling.
>> 
>> Looks like 35 responses...not sure I'd call that a "fairly good 
>> sampling".
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
>> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
>> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
>> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
>> 
>>
>



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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] 60% Canopy

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Perhaps if we get a few more MT might edge above 14%...

- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Motorola Canopy User Group" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] 60% Canopy


> On Sat, 6 Dec 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>
>>But as it is, I think this is a fairly good sampling.
>
> Looks like 35 responses...not sure I'd call that a "fairly good
> sampling".
>
> -- 
> 
> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
> 
>
>
> 
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[WISPA] 60% Canopy

[Chuck McCown - 3]

That grand total of survey monkey is wrong.  If you add all the subs you get 
34832 total with 20755 of those Canopy.  So 60% Canopy.  Still north of the 
50% that Mot will tell you.  If JAB got on here that percentage would go way 
up.  But as it is, I think this is a fairly good sampling. 
<>


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[WISPA] 86% Canopy

[Chuck McCown - 3]

<>


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[WISPA] 78% Canopy

[Chuck McCown - 3]

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[WISPA] 13 responses

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I am cooling my heels in downtown Chicago and for some reason my wife does 
not want to sit in this hotel room while I watch survey results all day 
long.  So, gotta go do the husband-on-a-one-day-vacation thing.  Will post 
fresh results when I get back. 
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[WISPA] Fw: [Motorola II] Initial results

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Redline 0.
Alvarion 0.
Ubiquity 0.
Canopy 6250
Other 25
Trango 135
Tranzeo 0.
MicroTik 5
Number of subscribers 8735



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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Fw: survey monkey

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I think I fixed it.  If you have already taken the survey please return and 
fill out the extra box of subs per technology.
You can return as many times as you wish per IP.

- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Motorola II] [WISPA] Fw: survey monkey


>I screwed up.  Results are coming in but no way can I tie the technology to 
>the sub count.
> Anyone know survey monkey well enough so that the result is how many subs 
> on each type of technology?
> What I did will not be very meaningful.  Sorry.
>
> ----- Original Message - 
> From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:41 AM
> Subject: [WISPA] Fw: [Motorola II] survey monkey
>
>
>>I put up a survey of type of technology used and number of subs at survey
>> monkey.
>>
>> I didn't pay for the premium version so you cannot immediately see 
>> results.
>> I will post results periodically over the next day or two.
>>
>> If anyone doubts the veracity of what I post, I will give you the 
>> username
>> and password to my survey monkey account after a day or two of collecting
>> data.
>> Hopefully folks will be honest if they choose to participate.
>>
>>
>> Hopefully this will illuminate the answer a bit.
>> This is totally anonomyous.
>> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=3CNTqbd_2fbD514WncbPQuWA_3d_3d
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
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>>
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>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
> 




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Re: [WISPA] Fw: [Motorola II] survey monkey

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I screwed up.  Results are coming in but no way can I tie the technology to 
the sub count.
Anyone know survey monkey well enough so that the result is how many subs on 
each type of technology?
What I did will not be very meaningful.  Sorry.

- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:41 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Fw: [Motorola II] survey monkey


>I put up a survey of type of technology used and number of subs at survey
> monkey.
>
> I didn't pay for the premium version so you cannot immediately see 
> results.
> I will post results periodically over the next day or two.
>
> If anyone doubts the veracity of what I post, I will give you the username
> and password to my survey monkey account after a day or two of collecting
> data.
> Hopefully folks will be honest if they choose to participate.
>
>
> Hopefully this will illuminate the answer a bit.
> This is totally anonomyous.
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=3CNTqbd_2fbD514WncbPQuWA_3d_3d
>
>
>
>
> 
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>
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>
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> 




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[WISPA] Fw: [Motorola II] survey monkey

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I put up a survey of type of technology used and number of subs at survey
 monkey.

 I didn't pay for the premium version so you cannot immediately see results.
 I will post results periodically over the next day or two.

If anyone doubts the veracity of what I post, I will give you the username 
and password to my survey monkey account after a day or two of collecting 
data.
Hopefully folks will be honest if they choose to participate.


 Hopefully this will illuminate the answer a bit.
 This is totally anonomyous.
 http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=3CNTqbd_2fbD514WncbPQuWA_3d_3d





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Re: [WISPA] Public ROW

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Maybe travelers.
- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Public ROW


> No, not self insured, but very high deductibles.
> I'm on the road right now, not sure of the name of the insurance company.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "D. Ryan Spott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Public ROW
>
>
>> Chuck,
>>
>> I assume you are self insured... but if not, who do you use?
>>
>> ryan
>>
>>
>> On Dec 5, 2008, at 7:16 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>
>>> Insurance and bonds are not really all that expensive.  Your insurance
>>> company will help you out.
>>> We have to have metered service now.  That is no different.
>>> Engineering
>>> review is not something the local govt charges for here.
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Public ROW
>>>
>>>
>>>> In NY you need to be pretty rich to get pole attachment rights.
>>>> Last I
>>>> heard you needed to post a bond as well as have liability for $25
>>>> million,
>>>> name the utilities and govt as additional insureds, pay for a
>>>> construction
>>>> audit, undergo engineering review and acceptance, and once you have
>>>> approval you need to have your equipment installed by an authorized
>>>> contractor as well as have METERED electric service at each location
>>>> requiring power.
>>>>
>>>> A little too steep for my pockets. Besides, by the time everything is
>>>> approved, wireless would be antiquated.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: "D. Ryan Spott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>
>>>> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 18:32:35
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: [WISPA] Public ROW
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The original thread is closed. Please use this new thread.
>>>>
>>>> Remember that thoe public right of ways are just that... Public.
>>>> Anyone
>>>> can ask for and receive a right of way franchise or use permit. I
>>>> have
>>>> several county wide franchises that allow me (within reason and
>>>> permitting) to place equipment in the ROW. The franchise is titled
>>>> specifically 'non-exclusive'.
>>>>
>>>> I also have a pole agreement that allows for pole attachments on
>>>> electric
>>>> company poles. The fcc prohibits the power company from limiting
>>>> what you
>>>> place on their poles except in the interests of safety. (we really
>>>> like
>>>> safe and healthy linemen!)
>>>>
>>>> ryan
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: Tom DeReggi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:26 PM
>>>> To: WISPA General List 
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>>>>
>>>> As I weeded through the gibberish I did recognize one good
>>>> point that
>>>> he
>>>> made.
>>>>
>>>> "We need the ability to use public rights of way and to not
>>>> have our trade restrained by local authorities who seek to ban our
>>>> equipment
>>>> deployments"
>>>>
>>>> It would be nice to have the same rights to right-of-ways that
>>>> incumbent
>>>> utility's have.
>>>>
>>>> We will always be at a disadvantage without it. Wireless on its
>>>> own, does
>>>> not get us every where that we need to get. There still has to be
>>>> somewhere
>>>> to put the radios. And as long as Real Estate Owners control that,
>>>> we are
>>>> not free to compete and grow.
>>>>
>>>> Although granting Whitespace to Unlicensed, will be a HUGE step in
>>>> the
>>>> right
>>>> direction, to get past many of these easement barriers to entries.
>>>>
>>>> Tom De

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Chuck McCown - 3]

There are companies that make it their business to sell market data.  If it 
was not accurate they would not still be in business.
Heck, I can probably sample 80% of all WISPs in the US in one week with two 
people and two phones.  WISPS are not hesitant to talk about their 
technology and you can look at websites and guess at coverage maps and 
sizes.  Moreover, I get calls on a regular basis my market research firms 
wanting to know details.  I share.  They give an NDA, I give data.  You can 
go by FCC data too (assuming everyone is reporting like they are supposed to 
do).

I have a large rolodex for AF that would be a good basis for a sample if I 
decided to do one.  I think I can independently verify the market data if 
there was some reason for me to do so.

But when Mot makes semi-public pronouncements of having over 50% of the 
market in this sarbanes-oxley environment, you can laugh all you want but to 
dismiss is folly.

BTW, Canopy is large enough to actually move the stock price of Mot.  Canopy 
revenue is supporting many of the folks in the handset division.
You can wish they will sell or scrap all you want, but I doubt you will get 
your wish this xmas.

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


> Sorry but this comment makes me laugh that you can throw out a number like 
> this when the "wise" people that do statistics can't even come to a true 
> conclusion how many wisps and other unlicensed operators there are out 
> there. To state these numbers as well with as many privately owned 
> manufacturers and distributors there are out there selling unlicensed 
> equipment I personally wouldn't dare throw out numbers like that so 
> casually like it was THE truth.
>
> Sure Canopy got a great product and have a big market space. But in the 
> big scope on the Moto radar Canopy is a very small market and Moto got 
> their status downgraded to junk by S&P this week. If they really start 
> hurting I do not doubt seeing them hesitate for 2second to scrap or sell 
> their Canopy line.
> /Eje
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:25:37
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>
>
> Digis was 100% Canopy.  I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the
> purchase.
> We have 5000+ all Canopy.
> Mot has more than 50% of the US market.  So the other 50% is made up of
> Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>
>
>> That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are at
>> your not that far off...
>>
>> Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they
>> bought...
>> Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part of
>> them.  Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband.  All Canopy shops (granted Mesa had
>> some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's
>> Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's
>> part
>> of the network).
>>
>> Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you?
>>
>> Daniel White
>> 3-dB Networks
>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>> Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3
>>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>>
>>> JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>>
>>>
>>> > Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
>>> >
>>> > But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics
>>> > that
>>> > back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large
>>> > provider
>>> > market.
>>> >
>>> > What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest 
>>> > Urban
>>> > WISPs. They use Aperto.
>>> > What about AirBand, they had some serious 

Re: [WISPA] Public ROW

[Chuck McCown - 3]

No, not self insured, but very high deductibles.
I'm on the road right now, not sure of the name of the insurance company.

- Original Message - 
From: "D. Ryan Spott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Public ROW


> Chuck,
>
> I assume you are self insured... but if not, who do you use?
>
> ryan
>
>
> On Dec 5, 2008, at 7:16 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>
>> Insurance and bonds are not really all that expensive.  Your insurance
>> company will help you out.
>> We have to have metered service now.  That is no different.
>> Engineering
>> review is not something the local govt charges for here.
>> - Original Message -
>> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Public ROW
>>
>>
>>> In NY you need to be pretty rich to get pole attachment rights.
>>> Last I
>>> heard you needed to post a bond as well as have liability for $25
>>> million,
>>> name the utilities and govt as additional insureds, pay for a
>>> construction
>>> audit, undergo engineering review and acceptance, and once you have
>>> approval you need to have your equipment installed by an authorized
>>> contractor as well as have METERED electric service at each location
>>> requiring power.
>>>
>>> A little too steep for my pockets. Besides, by the time everything is
>>> approved, wireless would be antiquated.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: "D. Ryan Spott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>
>>> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 18:32:35
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: [WISPA] Public ROW
>>>
>>>
>>> The original thread is closed. Please use this new thread.
>>>
>>> Remember that thoe public right of ways are just that... Public.
>>> Anyone
>>> can ask for and receive a right of way franchise or use permit. I
>>> have
>>> several county wide franchises that allow me (within reason and
>>> permitting) to place equipment in the ROW. The franchise is titled
>>> specifically 'non-exclusive'.
>>>
>>> I also have a pole agreement that allows for pole attachments on
>>> electric
>>> company poles. The fcc prohibits the power company from limiting
>>> what you
>>> place on their poles except in the interests of safety. (we really
>>> like
>>> safe and healthy linemen!)
>>>
>>> ryan
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Tom DeReggi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:26 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List 
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>>>
>>> As I weeded through the gibberish I did recognize one good
>>> point that
>>> he
>>> made.
>>>
>>> "We need the ability to use public rights of way and to not
>>> have our trade restrained by local authorities who seek to ban our
>>> equipment
>>> deployments"
>>>
>>> It would be nice to have the same rights to right-of-ways that
>>> incumbent
>>> utility's have.
>>>
>>> We will always be at a disadvantage without it. Wireless on its
>>> own, does
>>> not get us every where that we need to get. There still has to be
>>> somewhere
>>> to put the radios. And as long as Real Estate Owners control that,
>>> we are
>>> not free to compete and grow.
>>>
>>> Although granting Whitespace to Unlicensed, will be a HUGE step in
>>> the
>>> right
>>> direction, to get past many of these easement barriers to entries.
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> A

Re: [WISPA] Public ROW

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Insurance and bonds are not really all that expensive.  Your insurance 
company will help you out.
We have to have metered service now.  That is no different.  Engineering 
review is not something the local govt charges for here.
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Public ROW


> In NY you need to be pretty rich to get pole attachment rights. Last I 
> heard you needed to post a bond as well as have liability for $25 million, 
> name the utilities and govt as additional insureds, pay for a construction 
> audit, undergo engineering review and acceptance, and once you have 
> approval you need to have your equipment installed by an authorized 
> contractor as well as have METERED electric service at each location 
> requiring power.
>
> A little too steep for my pockets. Besides, by the time everything is 
> approved, wireless would be antiquated.
>
> Bob
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "D. Ryan Spott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 18:32:35
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Public ROW
>
>
> The original thread is closed. Please use this new thread.
>
> Remember that thoe public right of ways are just that... Public. Anyone 
> can ask for and receive a right of way franchise or use permit. I have 
> several county wide franchises that allow me (within reason and 
> permitting) to place equipment in the ROW. The franchise is titled 
> specifically 'non-exclusive'.
>
> I also have a pole agreement that allows for pole attachments on electric 
> company poles. The fcc prohibits the power company from limiting what you 
> place on their poles except in the interests of safety. (we really like 
> safe and healthy linemen!)
>
> ryan
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Tom DeReggi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:26 PM
> To: WISPA General List 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>
> As I weeded through the gibberish I did recognize one good point that 
> he
> made.
>
> "We need the ability to use public rights of way and to not
> have our trade restrained by local authorities who seek to ban our 
> equipment
> deployments"
>
> It would be nice to have the same rights to right-of-ways that incumbent
> utility's have.
>
> We will always be at a disadvantage without it. Wireless on its own, does
> not get us every where that we need to get. There still has to be 
> somewhere
> to put the radios. And as long as Real Estate Owners control that, we are
> not free to compete and grow.
>
> Although granting Whitespace to Unlicensed, will be a HUGE step in the 
> right
> direction, to get past many of these easement barriers to entries.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 




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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Units sold.

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


>> Mot has more than 50% of the US market
>
> Is that based on amount of gear sold, or amount of gear still deployed?
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>
>
>> Digis was 100% Canopy.  I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the
>> purchase.
>> We have 5000+ all Canopy.
>> Mot has more than 50% of the US market.  So the other 50% is made up of
>> Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc.
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>
>>
>>> That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are 
>>> at
>>> your not that far off...
>>>
>>> Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they
>>> bought...
>>> Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part 
>>> of
>>> them.  Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband.  All Canopy shops (granted Mesa 
>>> had
>>> some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's
>>> Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's
>>> part
>>> of the network).
>>>
>>> Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you?
>>>
>>> Daniel White
>>> 3-dB Networks
>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>>> Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>>>
>>>> JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
>>>> >
>>>> > But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics
>>>> > that
>>>> > back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large
>>>> > provider
>>>> > market.
>>>> >
>>>> > What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest
>>>> > Urban
>>>> > WISPs. They use Aperto.
>>>> > What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one
>>>> > two
>>>> > occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot
>>>> > of
>>>> > Alvarion later on.
>>>> > What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
>>>> > Trango
>>>> > at one point.
>>>> > What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
>>>> > What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
>>>> was
>>>> > mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
>>>> > What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
>>>> > primarilly a Canopy shop.
>>>> >
>>>> > Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to 
>>>> > evolve
>>>> in
>>>> > compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and
>>>> > beyond.
>>>> > But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
>>>> >
>>>> > You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays,
>>>> > most
>>>> > all
>>>> > of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of
>>>> > the
>>>> > largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs
>>>> > to
>>>> > now

Re: [WISPA] Public ROW

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Yes, they are there for the asking.  As a telco, the only thing we have over 
non telcos is the right to condemn.  Even the railroads have a very 
straightforward procedure for crossing the tracks or running along side 
them.

- Original Message - 
From: "D. Ryan Spott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Public ROW


> The original thread is closed. Please use this new thread.
>
> Remember that thoe public right of ways are just that... Public. Anyone 
> can ask for and receive a right of way franchise or use permit. I have 
> several county wide franchises that allow me (within reason and 
> permitting) to place equipment in the ROW. The franchise is titled 
> specifically 'non-exclusive'.
>
> I also have a pole agreement that allows for pole attachments on electric 
> company poles. The fcc prohibits the power company from limiting what you 
> place on their poles except in the interests of safety. (we really like 
> safe and healthy linemen!)
>
> ryan
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Tom DeReggi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:26 PM
> To: WISPA General List 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>
> As I weeded through the gibberish I did recognize one good point that 
> he
> made.
>
> "We need the ability to use public rights of way and to not
> have our trade restrained by local authorities who seek to ban our 
> equipment
> deployments"
>
> It would be nice to have the same rights to right-of-ways that incumbent
> utility's have.
>
> We will always be at a disadvantage without it. Wireless on its own, does
> not get us every where that we need to get. There still has to be 
> somewhere
> to put the radios. And as long as Real Estate Owners control that, we are
> not free to compete and grow.
>
> Although granting Whitespace to Unlicensed, will be a HUGE step in the 
> right
> direction, to get past many of these easement barriers to entries.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 




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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Digis was 100% Canopy.  I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the 
purchase.
We have 5000+ all Canopy.
Mot has more than 50% of the US market.  So the other 50% is made up of 
Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc.

- Original Message - 
From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


> That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are at
> your not that far off...
>
> Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they 
> bought...
> Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part of
> them.  Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband.  All Canopy shops (granted Mesa had
> some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's
> Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's 
> part
> of the network).
>
> Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you?
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3
>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>
>> JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>
>>
>> > Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
>> >
>> > But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics 
>> > that
>> > back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large 
>> > provider
>> > market.
>> >
>> > What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
>> > WISPs. They use Aperto.
>> > What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
>> > occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot 
>> > of
>> > Alvarion later on.
>> > What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
>> > Trango
>> > at one point.
>> > What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
>> > What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
>> was
>> > mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
>> > What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
>> > primarilly a Canopy shop.
>> >
>> > Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve
>> in
>> > compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and 
>> > beyond.
>> > But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
>> >
>> > You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most
>> > all
>> > of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
>> > largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs 
>> > to
>> > now
>> > buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting 
>> > that
>> > Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.
>> >
>> > I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap
>> > frog
>> > game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
>> > because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific 
>> > application
>> > on
>> > this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well 
>> > may
>> > bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are
>> new
>> > products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 
>> > markets.
>> >
>> > And the comment "are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.", that's a
>> > croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years 
>> > later,
>> > my
>> > Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.
>> >
>> > I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had 
>> > the
>> > reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
>> > afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for
>> > "small
>> > operators."  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the 

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Chuck McCown - 3]

;
>>> Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use
>>> Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.
>>>
>>> I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion,
>>> StarOS, etc.
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>>
>>>
>>> > Steve,
>>> >
>>> > I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our 
>>> > company
>>> we
>>> > are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our
>>> > success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an article
>>> here
>>> > about leasing that might change your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx
>>> >
>>> > Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it allows
>>> you
>>> > to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your
>>> > revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the
>>> interest,
>>> > but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your
>>> vendor
>>> > instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it better in
>>> the
>>> > article.
>>> >
>>> > Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another
>>> > WISP
>>> > can
>>> > replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment
>>> > related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an
>>> 802.11a/b/g
>>> > solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on
>>> > KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast. 
>>> > We
>>> > had
>>> > many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful
>>> > without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP.
>>> > Our
>>> > WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit
>>> the
>>> > limitations of the KarlNet system.  My experiences with a Tranzeo
>>> network
>>> > in
>>> > 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much
>>> (its
>>> > all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it).
>>> So
>>> > while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and
>>> > start
>>> > over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason.
>>> >
>>> > My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't
>>> > worth
>>> > much anymore)
>>> >
>>> > Daniel White
>>> > 3-dB Networks
>>> >
>>> >> -Original Message-
>>> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> >> On
>>> >> Behalf Of Steve Barnes
>>> >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM
>>> >> To: WISPA General List
>>> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>> >>
>>> >> I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so
>>> >> that
>>> >> the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
>>> >> still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
>>> >> takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
>>> >> Can you help me with that one.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Steve
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> >> On
>>> >> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
>>> >> To: WISPA General List
>>> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the
>>> install
>>> >> fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" 
>>

Re: [WISPA] Do you provide backup services?

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Maybe he took his frog meds...

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Moldashel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:33 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Do you provide backup services?


> Wow
>
> Bitch and complain about WISPA's position and actions (your view) and
> complain about "sucking up" for federal funds but you are real quick to
> use this WISPA sponsored and paid for list for your own self benefit.
>
> Talk about self-righteous bullshit!
>
> Practice what you preach dude!
>
> Go jump back in the pond.  Aren't frogs suppose to hibernate for the
> winter?  Give it a try.  Maybe things will be more to your liking in the
> spring. If not it will at least give us all a break from the soap opera
> going on here.
>
> Close this freakin' thread already
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Do any of you provide backup data services to your broadband clients as a
>> value added or revenue improving service?
>>
>> Was it a success or failure?
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> 
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> http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] Article

[Chuck McCown - 3]

AnimalFarm converts Sheep to Pigs!

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


> I'm not saying we should do what Mark says, I'm not even saying Mark is
> right (nor am I saying the opposites), but it's a good thing we have
> differing views.  Whether we're sheep for DC or sheep against DC, sheep 
> for
> Mt. Dew or sheep against Mt. Dew, sheep are the worst thing to be.
> Differing products, thoughts, opinions helps to breed a new generation of
> better products, thoughts, opinions.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:56 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>
>> LOL  Yeah.
>>
>> It's much easier to whine than it is to join and help improve things eh?
>>
>> Mark, you still fail to grasp the difference between working to change 
>> the
>> rules while living within the ones that exist.
>>
>> marlon
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Bob Moldashel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>>
>>
>>> Wow...OK   Who peed in the Muddy Water and hit the Frog?
>>>
>>> Sheesh...
>>>
>>> -B-
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 And I won't be.   I was once and put money into WISPA.When I think
 WISPA
 has the interests of all WISPS in mind when they act, then I'll
 financially
 support it.   When WISPA goes to washington DC and represents to them,
 that
 we actually WANT to be regulated, I cannot support them.   When WISPA
 consistently fights FOR all of us, and not just the narrow interests of
 those who want federal money or whatever, then I may again support 
 WISPA
 financially.

 When the attitude that "consolidation and shaking out the smaller
 players"
 is a good thing goes away, then there's on more barrier down.  It may
 not
 be
 official, but people who make decisions in WISPA have said that in the
 past.
 Sorry, you lost me with that one.  Small business and "mom and pop" are
 the
 backbone of our economy and make up a huge segment of all the jobs in
 the
 whole country.

 Every other industry organization unabashedly opposes everything that
 costs
 them or can harm them, but the leadership continues to insist that
 somehow
 playing nice and agreeing to mandates and costs will buy us favor...
 All
 that happens is the mandates and agreements happen, the regulators
 change
 and all the "goodwill" supposedly bought evaportes, with the precedents
 and
 whatnot remain.  Until they understand that Washington DC is NEVER our
 friend, never to be trusted, then we're just sheep waiting to get 
 shorn.

 Until this fundamental approach changes, no way in good conscience can 
 I
 put
 my name on what they do or give them money.


 Sorry, that's just my opinion and it's not subject to "revision and
 extension".

 This same attitude is going on still.   WISPA leadership is still
 talking
 about trying to out maneuver the big boys so as to make grants and 
 loans
 available.   Cripes.  Yeah, like we're ever going to win the arm
 twisting
 contest to bend it in our direction?   We don't collectively have that
 much
 money or lobbyists tin DC to get our names to the top of the rolodexes.
 We
 cannot win that fight with those rules.

 We have got to start selling the value of a thriving and diverse
 industry
 that exists solely due to lack of regulation and lack of governmental
 interference and that the big players cannot play our game effectively
 and
 that betting on the big guys is like buying Enron or Lehman stock.   We
 will
 never be the providers to the masses, but there can never be affordable
 ubiquitous broadband without us.

 That might take some thought and creativity to compose the narration 
 and
 it
 might take some skill to sell, but there's simply no rebuttal from
 Verizon
 that FIOS is ever going to make a lick of sense in a wide array of
 places.
 Or that in an era when Congress really, REALLY needs to get their 
 fiscal
 act
 in order, that blowing vast sums to reach few people makes sense.

 It has to be about selling the value of who and what you are and why 
 you
 are, not out muscling the big guys for a slice of pie.   That can't be
 won.
 Further, it obliterations the differences between us and them.   That
 DIFFERENCE is our strength, not our weakness.  If you're not thinking 
 in
 those te

Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I agree, you just need to be as good as or better than the competition.  And 
in many places the competition is still dialup.

- Original Message - 
From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)


>I strongly believe that the customer bandwidth packages should be
> priced based on your (or that area's cost).  I think a lot of the
> discussion has lost that mind set.
>
> Much of the debate here is thinking about 10 megs country wide
> broadband statement, 384k here or 2meg there.  In my area a 2 meg
> package is easily sellable and profitable.  It compares with cable/DSL
> is the populated areas we don't cover to get the enticement of those
> customers that are in our area.  In Nowhere, Idaho (pardon the lack of
> imaginative creativity) the options are could be 1 meg DSL, dialup and
> the local WISP packages of 512k and 1meg.  This particular WISP will
> not be selling 5 or 10 meg connections in the next couple of years or
> likely even ever.
>
> Not every town gets a 100 story skyscraper with a floor for a data
> center and oodles of fiber passsing through.  How can one offer the
> same service when the technological progression of this example and
> Nowhere are a decade apart?
>
> In cable's case of DOCSIS 3 and HD channels - how many homes are
> capable of getting that 50 meg connection Comcast boasts?  Or the
> dozens of HD channels?  I'm positive those customers in the most rural
> areas with a country block between houses will receive these new
> features much later then that of people living in a city with
> thousands of people in a single block.  Every one is in business to do
> business and make money.  It may be one's goal to feed their family or
> raise enough money to buy their dream house and car or even just to be
> able to grow the business, sell it, and start the process over.
>
> All we can do is our learn what we can and improve our practices with
> that knowledge.  The cable company is not going to upgrade the 10
> customers in Nowhere begore the thousand in BigOCity - it only make
> sense to secure the revenue from those thousand with other options
> then those 10 that have not other options.  A WISP can (should) not
> sell 3 megs to each customer when the bottleneck is 3 megs.  QoS can
> do great things but it simply can not turn 3 megs into
> customers*3megs.
>
> I am done ranting, thank you for reading!
>
> On 12/4/08, RickG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I have WRAP boards on all towers that provide limited bandwidth
>> shaping. I just recently installed a Mikrotik firewall (and love it).
>> It's shaping and rules cover all customers. As far as bandwidth hits,
>> the previous owner oversold and overmarketed the amount of bandwidth
>> in order to gain subscribers (i.e. premium 3Mbps accounts when he only
>> had 3Mbps). Since bandwidth is very expensive and difficult to get
>> here, this has led to a sluggish network that I am having difficulty
>> resolving. Therefore, the customers have been complaining. The good
>> news is that after getting very creative, I have overturned some new
>> options but the cost is still a strain on the budget. My biggest
>> frustration is the never ending question: What will it take? It
>> appears that more and more people want constant multi-megabit speeds
>> on demand for less than $50/month. The oversubscription rate on a
>> $600/month T1 no longer provides for a valid business model. Heck, my
>> $500/month 5Mbps connection form Time Warner became quickly saturated
>> once I put it in. I expect my new 11Mbps connection for $600 will do
>> the same. The interesting part is that I continue to get pressure for
>> faster speed plans therefore pressure to make the same mistake my
>> predecessor made - offer plans with speeds that max out my capacity.
>> -RickG
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Steve Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Rick, (everyone)
>>>
>>> So from that statement it appears that you are not using any bandwidth
>>> limiting ore shaping at your AP or NOC.
>>> Question 1. Is that for all Client levels or just your premium service.
>>> Question 2. If you don't manage limits, was that always how you've
>>> always done it? If not what made you decide to do it this way and what
>>> kind of upstream hit did you take.
>>>
>>> I am considering giving more speed but I am concerned about the
>>> additional cost to me for abusers.
>>>
>>> Steve Barnes
>>> RCWiFi Wireless Internet Service
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>> Behalf Of RickG
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:04 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>>>
>>> Every SHOULD know that most connections are "shared bandwidth". The
>>> keyword is SHOULD. But, peole only hear what they want to and everyone
>>> I talk to that isnt a techie thinks they get the speed they bought fo

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Chuck McCown - 3]

You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000 subscribers 
things will be a bit better.

- Original Message - 
From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds


>I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
> WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
> that is so often discussed on this list.
>
>
>
> I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
> penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
> clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
> what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
> 320 clients.
>
>
>
> The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
> Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
> speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
> of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
> Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
> another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
> 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
>
>
>
> Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
> you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
>
>
>
> Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you
> service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
> know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
> boat.
>
>
>
> So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
> without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
> charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
> readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
> Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
> Verizon.
>
>
>
> Steve Barnes
>
> RC-WiFi.com
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 




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Re: [WISPA] Article

[Chuck McCown - 3]

With any internet technology, aggregation is happening somewhere.  DSL you have 
a pipe to the C.O. but then there may be limited overhead.  Cable modems 
aggregate in various branches of their distribution.  Wireless aggregates at 
the AP.  Satellite... big AP in the sky.  Even FTTH has shared resources on 
GPON that can be eventually saturated by one customer.  Very few technologies 
are totally non blocking when it comes to this.  

Canopy allows 10.2 Mbps (in my system) to be simultaneously delivered to all 
SMs on a time share arrangement.  That might be blowing smoke but the users 
experience is that if you have an AP with 100 "normal" customers on it and they 
go to a speed test site, they will get that speed almost every single time they 
choose to test.  Every one of them.  And when they are browsing and reading 
email, they are doing it at 10.2.  

The thing is so fast and the fixed latency makes it such that it is rare that 
two people are clicking their mouse at the exact same time.  So, as a time 
share condo allows you full use of the house during your week, Canopy allows 
you full use of the AP for the milliseconds you need to get that web page.  The 
next guy that clicks will also get full use of the AP when they need it.  When 
someone starts the streaming data or huge file transfer, then they get 
throttled down to their speed plan.  

But I do not blush when I say we deliver 10.2 Mbps because we do.  And the user 
experience is much better than DSL, Cable or Satellite.  Perhaps that offends 
some folks sense of right and wrong, but not mine.  

  - Original Message - 
  From: Jack Unger 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


  So how many of your customers can you serve 26 Mb to SIMULTANEOUSLY from the 
same AP? It sounds like you are saying that you can serve all of them 26 Mb 
simultaneously. 

  Josh Luthman wrote: 
Each customer has an MT - capable of 26mbps to their home.  Each tower has a
Redline to it, throughput as high as the key purchased (54 megs).

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand Wireless are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  Josh Luthman wrote:

My 5.8 customers can do 10+ megs...

The estimated throughput on the MTs is 30 to 31 megs.  Real bandwidth tests
show 26 megs.


 So do you deploy one MT for each customer or do you share that 26 Mb
between all of your customers on that one access point?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand Wireless are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:40 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



 And which telco is this going to bail out?Money from Congress to
industry = pay off Unions for votes.

We will never, ever, ever, ever qualify.

Another headliner article I read on this will redefine "broadband" as over
10 Meg.

Nothing like disqualifying almost the entire WISP industry...







- Original Message -
From: "Rick Harnish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'"  
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article




 Jeff,

Just to let you know, I am in Washington DC this week participating in


 the


 events below.  WISPA has signed on as a supporter of the Call to Action


 to


 define the Nationwide Broadband Strategy.  It was great to see all the
players of the Broadband Industry working together to attempt to bring


 the


 US back up to the top of the Broadband Access ladder.  It will be a busy
three months while this strategy is defined and presented to the Obama
Administration.

Respectfully,

Rick Harnish

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] On
Behalf Of Jeff Broadwick
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:21 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Article




 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/02/AR2008120203

 164_pf.html

New Coalition Drawing Up Nationwide Broadband Access Strategy

By Cecilia Kang
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, December 3, 2008; D03

President-elect Barack Obama has said getting affordable high-speed
Internet
service to every American home would create jobs, fuel economic growth


 and


 spark innovation. Yesterday, representatives from technology and
telecommunications companies, labor unions and public interest groups
frequently at odds with one another agreed to provide the next president
with a roadmap for how to accomplish those goals.

That map could include tax breaks, low-interest loans, subsidies and
public-private partnerships to encourage more investments in upgrading


 and


 building out high-speed network

Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system

[Chuck McCown - 3]

PC is much more spendy than Plat.  That is one of the reasons we did not go 
with PC.

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system


>
> Advantage or Disadvantage?
>
> Actually Powercode integrates with Imagestream routers.
> Personally, I think the PowerCode/Imagestream platform was probably the 
> best
> value proposition on the market for a solution to manage WISPs that was
> commercially available and complete.
> Something someone should definately look into, if they are starting new, 
> and
> not locked into a platform yet.
>
> However, I personally, chose against it, for the same reason. I was 
> already
> locked into a methodology, and the value wasn't there for me, if I
> unnecesssarilly had to start replacing routers to get full advantage of 
> the
> software.
>
> But I'd argue Logisense (engage IP) also had the same flaw. The
> equipment/provisioning/BW management features were only
> integrated/compatible with their proprietary BW management hardware router
> device. After I bought it, I never ended up using it. (But it was my first
> choice at the time for many reasons)
>
> Both these platforms still offer significant value even if you don't use 
> the
> router integration features, and it solves many problems for WISPs. But
> ultimately it means jumping into a platform that leads to never having a
> complete solution as an end game, if you don;t embrace their hardware
> vendor. As a result, I chose to just stay with Quickbooks, and create
> in-house, and not address it until I absolutely had to.  I'll admit, I'm 
> not
> sure that I made the right choice.
>
> WISPA also has a another vendor member, IntraMeta, that has a nice
> operations management system, but they did not have teh billing components
> integrated yet, which I feel are the most important. But I know they are
> working on the billing pieces.
>
> What ever happened to OptiGold?  5 years ago, when we were debating the
> accounting topic on ISP-LISTs, the winner was OptiGold. WISPs loved it. I
> wonder how many of those WISPs are still using it, and still loving it?
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system
>
>
>>I can't say that I really care about my top posting, I actually prefer top
>> posting because I don't have to hunt for information...  unless it is
>> addressing many points, which you did, I did not.  The entire email fits
>> on
>> my screen, so I saw it all.  ;-)  Here is my end of the bickering over
>> trivial things.
>>
>> Freeside can do the ticketing through RT integration and you can use
>> ticketing (albeit not gracefully) to track leads to installs.  It cannot
>> do
>> the scheduling to the best of my ability.
>>
>> He also said it doesn't have to be one application, therefore I provided
>> what I knew handled most of the requirements quite well.
>>
>> I guess to further add to my previous post, Mikrotik's The Dude is a 
>> great
>> network monitor.  Maybe it does, but I wish it had the ability to be
>> integrated with.  Sure the open source ones do, but they're a PITA to
>> setup.
>>
>> Others have had great success with PowerCode, but my experience is not.
>> When I was talking with them, they basically told me to purchase their 
>> BMU
>> or their software won't really do anything for me.  Yes, this was a long
>> time ago in Internet time.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:02 AM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system
>>
>>> On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>
While I'm not yet using it, Freeside is quite impressive.  I'd like
to refer you to Jeremy Davis of maximumtech.us for more
information.
>>>
>>> While I agree that FS is a good application and can do PARTS of what
>>> he asked for, it does not do all of it.  Jeremy Davis is a good man
>>> for FreeSide without question.
>>>
>>> Perhaps it's the top posting that made is so that you didn't
>>> remember all the requirements?  See my example in this email...
>>>
>Some things it has to have:
>>>
>A system that integrates with a bandwidth management and auto
>shutdown for delinquent accounts.
>>>
>>> FS can do this in the hands of an Expert like Jeremy.
>>>
>Can process a customer form lead to install and handle trouble
>tickets afterward including installer scheduling.
>>>
>>> Unless Jeremy has done some extra work with FS, It does not fulfill
>>> these CRM requirements.
>>

Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system

[Chuck McCown - 3]

amen
We love Plat.
- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system


> Platypus
>
> Been using it for years, does everything.
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 




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Re: [WISPA] The fastest ISPs in America.. And onlyWildBluewasmentioned as wireless???

[Chuck McCown - 3]

This is what his autoresponder sent.  So, email both of them.



I will be out of the office December 3rd - 5th, returning Monday December 
8th. For answers to any questions regarding PCMag.com content, talk to Vicki 
Jacobson: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] The fastest ISPs in America.. And 
onlyWildBluewasmentioned as wireless???


[EMAIL PROTECTED]


This is the guy that compiled the article.  Write him and educate him.  I
did.

- Original Message - 
From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] The fastest ISPs in America.. And only
WildBluewasmentioned as wireless???


My point is that companies like Time Warner Cable, Verizon, AT&T, etc boast
that their service is reliable because it is wired, which is not the case.

Kind of like Verizon's FiOS versus Comcast - Comcast fought back saying
their network is fiber just as Verizon's FiOS is.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Scottie Arnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> LOL, I have been to Vegas a few timesSaw SOME BIG movie stars, I
> didn't
> take pictures, They are just like me and you, only hyped up!. I think that
> is relative to you TW towers! I could be wrong, I have once before, LOL.
>
> Scottie
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> Date:  Wed, 3 Dec 2008 00:19:42 -0500
>
> >Should I take a picture of the 1500ft tower with a dozen antennas that
> Time
> >Warner *Cable* has a mile from our office?
> >
> >Josh Luthman
> >Office: 937-552-2340
> >Direct: 937-552-2343
> >1100 Wayne St
> >Suite 1337
> >Troy, OH 45373
> >
> >Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> >--- Henry Spencer
> >
> >
> >On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:09 AM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Come on, Drewthat article wins First Prize for "Most Wasted
> >> Internet
> >> Electrons" this week. Why would wireless be included? Wireless will
> >> never compete with copper or fiber. Shsh.
> >>
> >> Drew Lentz wrote:
> >> > I just ran across this article from PC Magazine about the fastest
> >> > ISPs
> in
> >> > America and nowhere on there, other than WildBlue, does it mention
> >> wireless!
> >> > That sucks!
> >> >
> >> > Here¹s the article:
> >> > http://www.pcmag.com/print_article2/0,1217,a%253D234501,00.asp
> >> >
> >> > Boycott PCMag or what? :-)
> >> >
> >> > -drew
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> 
> >> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >> >
> >>
> 
> >> >
> >> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >> >
> >> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >> >
> >> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
> >> Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
> >> Cisco Press Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
> >> WISPs - Do you know where your customers are?
> >> For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping
> >> FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile <
> >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger>
> >> Phone 818-227-4220  Email <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>
> >>
> --

Re: [WISPA] The fastest ISPs in America.. And only WildBluewasmentioned as wireless???

[Chuck McCown - 3]

[EMAIL PROTECTED]


This is the guy that compiled the article.  Write him and educate him.  I 
did.

- Original Message - 
From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] The fastest ISPs in America.. And only 
WildBluewasmentioned as wireless???


My point is that companies like Time Warner Cable, Verizon, AT&T, etc boast
that their service is reliable because it is wired, which is not the case.

Kind of like Verizon's FiOS versus Comcast - Comcast fought back saying
their network is fiber just as Verizon's FiOS is.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Scottie Arnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> LOL, I have been to Vegas a few timesSaw SOME BIG movie stars, I 
> didn't
> take pictures, They are just like me and you, only hyped up!. I think that
> is relative to you TW towers! I could be wrong, I have once before, LOL.
>
> Scottie
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> Date:  Wed, 3 Dec 2008 00:19:42 -0500
>
> >Should I take a picture of the 1500ft tower with a dozen antennas that
> Time
> >Warner *Cable* has a mile from our office?
> >
> >Josh Luthman
> >Office: 937-552-2340
> >Direct: 937-552-2343
> >1100 Wayne St
> >Suite 1337
> >Troy, OH 45373
> >
> >Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> >--- Henry Spencer
> >
> >
> >On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:09 AM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Come on, Drewthat article wins First Prize for "Most Wasted 
> >> Internet
> >> Electrons" this week. Why would wireless be included? Wireless will
> >> never compete with copper or fiber. Shsh.
> >>
> >> Drew Lentz wrote:
> >> > I just ran across this article from PC Magazine about the fastest 
> >> > ISPs
> in
> >> > America and nowhere on there, other than WildBlue, does it mention
> >> wireless!
> >> > That sucks!
> >> >
> >> > Here¹s the article:
> >> > http://www.pcmag.com/print_article2/0,1217,a%253D234501,00.asp
> >> >
> >> > Boycott PCMag or what? :-)
> >> >
> >> > -drew
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> 
> >> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >> >
> >>
> 
> >> >
> >> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >> >
> >> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >> >
> >> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
> >> Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
> >> Cisco Press Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
> >> WISPs - Do you know where your customers are?
> >> For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping
> >> FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile <
> >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger>
> >> Phone 818-227-4220  Email <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>
> >>
> 
> >>
> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>
> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>
> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >>
> >
> >
>
> >
> >WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> >
> >
> >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> >Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> >Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >---
> >[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> >
> >
>
>
> Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as
> $30.00/mth.
> Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information.
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/
--

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

There deals clear down to $7/meg.
Ask vendors for a 2 year contract, GigE 100 Mbps burstable.

- Original Message - 
From: "John Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


>
> http://www.nefiber.com/
>
> Recently, I learned that American Fiber Systems has "InterCity Fiber
> Ring" that connects Las Vegas, Reno/Carson City, Boise and Salt Lake on
> a fully redundant OC-192 capacity backbone.
> They aren't cheap on the low end at $2000/month for 5 meg burstable to
> 10, but I image the price per meg drops quickly as the bandwidth goes up.
> These guys do fiber in California
>
> http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/
>
> They do 5 meg burstable to 10 at $1595-1995 but they told me they can do
> 100 meg for about $7000 per month.
>
> John
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these 
>> providers
>> are, or the carriers outside of the RBOCs, or what connectivity
>> possibilities are in their areas.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:15 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>>> Right, it is not. It is a embedded content provider for web sites.
>>>
>>> J Hodge
>>> 630.445.3779
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:53 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>> I'm not saying it's not possible, but I doubt that there is much much
>>> BitTorrent traffic coming from Limelight.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:41 AM
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>>
 Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?

 J Hodge
 630.445.3779

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

 Hi,

 So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue 
 on
 my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with only
 a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload"
 traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?

 Travis
 Microserv

 Mike Hammett wrote:

> 208.111.168.6
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
>
> From: Travis Johnson
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
> Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
> Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...
> the
> bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.
>
> Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they
> have
> an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000
> Gbps
> of traffic.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>   Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up
> to
> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not 
> only
> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
> mainstream for many who have never used it. 

Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth and costs...

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Take GigE on fiber from them.  Then use whatever microwave you can get to 
haul it to wherever you need to go.
There is a huge price break when you go 100 mbps burstable on a GigE.
You can wholesale enough on your way out of town to pay for the whole thing.
But you must meet the tier 1/2 provider at their place to get the deals.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth and costs...


> There's certainly much cheaper bandwidth in those cities, but unless 
> you're
> 1, maybe 2 fiber hops away and are buying 50 megs+, it isn't worth it. 
> The
> number of Wireless hops vary.
>
> Once you hit say 100 megs or 150 megs, it's a different ball game.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:53 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth and costs...
>
>> I am certain you can do much better than that.
>> And you don't even have to be in Chicago or Detroit.
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Harold Bledsoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth and costs...
>>
>>
>>> Blair,
>>>
>>> Do you think you could do the same thing from Chicago or Detroit?  You
>>> should be able to get something in the $30~50/Mb range, maybe better if
>>> you can shoot off of a carrier hotel roof or something.
>>>
>>> -Hal
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: RickG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
>>> To: WISPA General List 
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth and costs...
>>> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:57:55 -0500
>>>
>>> I've got the same issues here. I'm getting rid of my expensive T1's
>>> and bringing in bandwidth from 30 miles away. If the usages keeps
>>> growing, I'll employ one of the options you mention below.
>>> -RickG
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:50 PM, Blair Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>> With the things that are coming, I'm starting to wounder just how the
>>>> bandwidth/pricing model is going to have to change.
>>>>
>>>> This is likely not a big deal for you urban guys, but out here in the
>>>> rural
>>>> areas, bandwidth ain't cheap.
>>>>
>>>> A T1, 1.54Mb/s, costs me $700/month.
>>>> On my fiber, 1Mb/s costs me $200/month.
>>>>
>>>> These movie services look to run 2Mb/s. IPTV looks to run 500Kb/s per
>>>> stream.  Just how much of this can our rural networks handle?
>>>>
>>>> The sat. services can't do this.  The cellular providers can't do this.
>>>>
>>>> Most of us have our residential service priced in the $35-$45 range.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't take a accountant to see that those numbers don't add up.
>>>>
>>>> Is per bit pricing the answer?  Higher fixed monthly?  Traffic
>>>> discrimination?  A combination?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>>
>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.

Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth and costs...

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I am certain you can do much better than that.
And you don't even have to be in Chicago or Detroit.

- Original Message - 
From: "Harold Bledsoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth and costs...


> Blair,
>
> Do you think you could do the same thing from Chicago or Detroit?  You
> should be able to get something in the $30~50/Mb range, maybe better if
> you can shoot off of a carrier hotel roof or something.
>
> -Hal
>
> -Original Message-
> From: RickG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> To: WISPA General List 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth and costs...
> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:57:55 -0500
>
> I've got the same issues here. I'm getting rid of my expensive T1's
> and bringing in bandwidth from 30 miles away. If the usages keeps
> growing, I'll employ one of the options you mention below.
> -RickG
>
> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:50 PM, Blair Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> With the things that are coming, I'm starting to wounder just how the
>> bandwidth/pricing model is going to have to change.
>>
>> This is likely not a big deal for you urban guys, but out here in the 
>> rural
>> areas, bandwidth ain't cheap.
>>
>> A T1, 1.54Mb/s, costs me $700/month.
>> On my fiber, 1Mb/s costs me $200/month.
>>
>> These movie services look to run 2Mb/s. IPTV looks to run 500Kb/s per
>> stream.  Just how much of this can our rural networks handle?
>>
>> The sat. services can't do this.  The cellular providers can't do this.
>>
>> Most of us have our residential service priced in the $35-$45 range.
>>
>> It doesn't take a accountant to see that those numbers don't add up.
>>
>> Is per bit pricing the answer?  Higher fixed monthly?  Traffic
>> discrimination?  A combination?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
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>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
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> 




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Re: [WISPA] stopgap for congested wi-fi channel

[Chuck McCown - 3]

NS5

- Original Message - 
From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] stopgap for congested wi-fi channel


> Well, speaking as one of the most experienced wireless
> interference-reduction specialists in the broadband wireless industry
> (and also one of the most humble)...
>
> No, there's not much you can do except possibly to deploy more access
> points (or wireless nodes) closer to your end-users. You will have to do
> this in a way that does not increase the level of inter-access point or
> inter-node interference.
>
> My recommendation is to either a) call in an experienced wireless
> professional for advice, or b) ask the kid next door who "knows
> wireless" because he deployed a wireless router in his bedroom.
>
> jack
>
>
> Rogelio wrote:
>> When you have a noise floor of -30 dBm to -50dBm on a 2.4/5.8 11a/b GHz
>> Wi-Fi band, is there anything configuration related that you can do to
>> alleviate the problem other than switch channels, use narrower beam
>> antennas, etc.
>>
>> (I've got a situation where I have to make chicken salad out of chicken
>> crap for a little while until I have another option.)
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
> Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
> Cisco Press Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
> WISPs - Do you know where your customers are?
> For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping
> FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile 
> 
> Phone 818-227-4220  Email <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 




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Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex

[Chuck McCown - 3]

The absolute voltage doesn't matter, nor does it matter if there is an 
accurate function between volts and received signal.
It only matters that you can peak it to the maximum with more accuracy than 
with LEDs.  Moving it fractions of a degree and seeing the least significant 
digit of a millivolt display is not someting you can do with LEDs.
There is precision and there is accuracy.
The LEDs are not precise.  The Voltmeter is precise.
Who knows if either is accurate but since we are doing a peaking function, 
accuracy doesn't matter.

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex


>> Shouldn't it be attached with a BNC connector on o
>
> You got me there. If the proper cables exist to accomplish that, its all
> good to use a voltmeter.
>
> Provided that the the Voltage to DB conversions is accurate, and that the
> installer can remember what voltage they should have to a certain db.
>
> Where this applies is with side lobes and such. When its a DB reading, it 
> is
> always clear whether you are within 2-4 db of the actuall signal you
> engineered to reieve,
> For example, you instantly recognize that if you are 20db off calculated
> signal, you are probably aligned to a side lobe. The math conversion 
> doesn't
> have to be made in the head.
> Voltage to db curve is not always proportional.  For example when aligning
> Proxim 60Ghz, it was a voltage range from 1 to 3 volts.  Sure I knew 2 
> volts
> was our target number, but what did it really mean if I got 1.34 volts? It
> meant looking at a graph on paper, and calculating what DB it was
> equivellent to.
>
> So in summary I'm saying it may be just as easy to align and find the
> center with a Voltmeter, maybe even easier. But with an LED, its easier to
> have a ball park view of where you are at with alignment. The LED also 
> give
> the value that its there for times when you aren't repaired in advance.  I
> can give an example of last week, when the Tech did not fasten the antenna
> bolts tight enough, and the antenna blew slightly out of alignment.  When 
> I
> was out in the field on sasles calls, I was able to send the clsoest tech,
> who was NOT prepared with the right voltmenter and special cable, and a
> charged laptop battery, and he was still empowered to fix the roof top 
> link
> w/ the LED.  All our techs, at minimum, carry a wrench with them.
>
> On a side note, if this were on a real "tower", this oviously is not an
> advantage, as nobody would justify climbing a comercial tower, without 
> being
> adequately prepared with tools/meters needed.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 10:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex
>
>
>>- Link Quality
>>
>> We looked at the BER results, etc.  I guess what I was saying was I did
>> not
>> get the opportunity to kill them and test PPS or actual throughput... all
>> I
>> did was climb the tower where they had already been installed, align the
>> dish, and configure the IDU.  So I can't give a completely fair analysis
>> of
>> the radios...
>>
>> - LED
>>
>> I agree it is bright and position is optimal.  With the sun shining
>> directly
>> on it I had to constantly cover it up with my hand to read the numbers
>> though.  If I had a voltmeter I would have just repositioned it on the
>> ODU.
>> The position of the LED is also fine on the ODU, but depending on how the
>> dish was mounted and I was hanging off the tower it could be in a 
>> position
>> blocked by a crossmember, etc.  There is no way to engineer this better,
>> but
>> the ability to move the voltmeter around is preferable.  I also prefer 
>> the
>> accuracy of the voltmeter to the two digit LED... I guess my optimal
>> solution would be to include both on the ODU...
>>
>> - Voltmeter...
>>
>> Shouldn't it be attached with a BNC connector on one end and wired into
>> the
>> voltmeter on the other.  I don't understand your comment about having to
>> deal with the wires...
>>
>> - Mounting Hoist
>>
>> I agree... it would make life much easier if they could install a hook on
>> the back of the dish much like the Orthogon radios
>>
>> - Pricing
>>
>> I think my point is that they are very close now, and I like the
>> Dragonwave
>> product more than the Trango product (although from what I can tell it
>> appears to be a decent product, although the firmware is still a bit
>> buggy).
>> I guess my point is that anyone looking to buy a link shouldn't just buy
>> Trango because of the perceived cost savings... real or imaginary.  Do 
>> the
>> research and determine for yourself.  I'm also slightly biased because we
>> are a Dragonwave Reseller... but I also resell Ceragon, Exalt, Cielo, and
>> Nera.  Each product is good, and each o

Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex

[Chuck McCown - 3]

LEDs lack resolution.
While you can bracket the signal and guess at the center, with more significant 
digits you don't have to guess.
Both methods work, but bracketing takes some skill.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Johnson 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:39 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex


  Hi,

  Having used the "voltmeter" vs. LED method of aligning, I will take the LED 
any day. One less piece of equipment to have to deal with on the tower, and a 
much more accurate way to see the true RSSI on the link.

  And, I think we already did the "pricing" thing about 5 months ago, didn't 
we? Seems like the Dragonwave was about $3,000 more for less of a radio... ;)

  Travis
  Microserv

  3-dB Networks wrote: 
Tom,

Quick question, then my response... do all Apex's ship with the fiber port
in them?

I really have to bite my tounge... I don't want to get into what all
happened (basically I don't want my thoughts made public and the customer I
was working for to read them) but I was not impressed at all with the Trango
Giga product... I just helped install nine links last week.  All I did was
install and configure the radios, so yes they said 256QAM at 3xx Meg... but
I didn't get to test it with live data, etc.

What I will say, the alignment LED is a gimmick.  Give me a BNC connector
hooked up to a voltmeter any day.  First my voltmeter is going to read to
decimals, which is very helpful aligning long links.  Second, the LED is
about worthless if the sun is shining on it, you have to cover it with your
hands to read the numbers which was difficult on at least one link I was
aligning.   Third, positioning on some towers to align the link made reading
the LED difficult.  None of these issues are problems with my voltmeter, I
simply just use a strip of electrical tape and tape it to the ODU where I
want.

One thing I did like, the handles on the ODU of the Giga.  Made aligning 3ft
dishes a bit easier...

With all of that said, what is the price on the Apex now that the summer
special is long over?  Before jumping for Trango, I would encourage anyone
to show me a current quote and to see if I can match it with Dragonwave...
from what I understand I can come damn close :-)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:38 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Trango Apex

Not sure how many of you have tried the new Trango Apexes yet, but I thought

I'd share my recent experience

OK 366mbps, 256QAM, Cost me much less than I was expecting. And it 
just freakin Worked!
WooHoo!  Man, I like this radio.

I specificaly liked the fact that the all outdoor unit, comes with 3 ports, 
1 fiber, 1 GigE, 1 out-of-band managemnet, and supports inband management on

the GigE.
What I thought was unique was that either of the two Ethernet ports could be

used to provide the POE power input. And also optionally can just run 
stanrdard Electrical wire to the Molex connector instead if prefer.  But I 
was extremely impressed at the flexibilty in options to install this. The 
alignment LED is also awesome, that is positioned in a convenient place and 
shows actual RSSI DB number, as it really speeds up install and made it 
possible for one person to accurately align it.

Also note... The older Giga had some anoying firmware bugs last year in 
their Betas (typical of Beta), and I finally got around to upgrading to the 
latest firmwares. (I was 9 months overdue for the task) Guess what... All 
the problems are FIXED!!  Atleast the ones I knew about. I was really 
pleased.  I have to say this product line is REALLY coming along nicely.

Only thing I caution to be aware of is It takes a while to fully 
understand the relationship of how well your link is performing in relation 
to what the MSE value of the radio is.  MSE is the equivellent of 
measurement of SNR and distortion. And the ATPC and Adaptive Modulation 
thresholds are based on specific MSEs reached. The MSE feature/meter works 
good and accurately, it was just an issue of understanding how to 
interperate it.

I was also impreseed on how fast they associate when they are taking out of 
opmode and back on in opmode. Its super quick.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?


  On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote:

I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value"
decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could
support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it
today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on
the market:
  I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix.
I do

Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I had the same question.  The main difference is that we know before the 
roll in most cases the frequency and color code and if that ap is blocked by 
trees we generally have several others in different directions that the tech 
can switch to on the fly.  Most importantly, 6 months later it is still 
working.  5 years later it is still working.  On the few with problems the 
call center folks diagnose and fix the problem remotely.  Only if the wind 
has caused a misalignment do we have to do a truck roll.  I have yet to see 
any material difference or benefit to using Trango over Canopy.  But I can 
show the converse.


- Original Message - 
From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?


> Tom,
>
> Can you please help me understand how that procedure is any different then
> Canopy except the software selectable polarity?  My only experience with
> Trango SU's has been on the bench, and I really wasn't impressed 
> (especially
> after I heard all of the bitching from the tower guys I worked with that 
> did
> have to deal with them)
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:11 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
>
> Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was 
> for
> Trango
> Trango's value  is not measured by "throughput", but instead "deployment
> methodology".
>
> Proceedure
>
> 1) Accept Customer Order.
> 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of
> needed.
> 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST
> noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise.
> 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, 
> and
> the best option and alternate options for channel selection.
> 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or
> Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel.  But what
> ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there
> with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed.
> 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify
> performance.
> 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a "Check" and your 
> first
>
> Client live and running perfectly.
>
> Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage.
>
> 1) You log in remotely
> 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan.
> 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link 
> in
> the shortest time period possible.
> 4) You are empowered  to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out 
> the
> truck roll bneeded 99% of the time.
> 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time
> that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation
> notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use
> trango.
>
> Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same
> general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been
> discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally
> when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango.
>
> My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as
> Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example 
> Teletronics
> jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also.  And they offer speed
> and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that
> Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install 
> process
> better.
>
> Other vendors pretend to have the above features... But not really to an
> equal caliber. For example, siure a Mikrotik can listen for noise, but you
> have to associate first, or other wise not hear all technology's noise, 
> and
>
> end up temporarilly interfering with someone before you can see if jsut 
> the
> single channel does interfer.
>
> MAnufacturers ahve come a long way, but they still need improved MACs that
> allow them to offer the Basic Core management features. I'm not sure it is
> possible today with standard OEM/OFDM products, because if it was, it 
> would
> have been done already.
>
> The closest thing to accomplsihing it, is Canopy.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
>
>
>>I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the
>> Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and 
>> at
>> most 7mbps throughput.  Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used)
>> easily
>> outperforms

Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?

[Chuck McCown - 3]

The comment was "twice" the bandwidth for 1/3rd the cost.

- Original Message - 
From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?


> That's not fair :-)  I didn't know we were talking Mikrotik.
>
> Yes other systems will support the same bandwidth at 1/3 the cost using 
> the
> same amount of spectrum...
>
> But you can't get 150 customers on those AP's, or the same carrier to 
> noise
> ratio... etc.  You get what you pay for (as much as I love Canopy I'll be
> the first one to admit that if I had my own personal WISP, I might not
> deploy Canopy everywhere unless I was big like Mesa was where you don't 
> have
> to have quick ROI on every AP)
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:36 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
>
> I didn't say Trango... ;)
>
> Mikrotik AP's can be built for $400 including your choice of antenna
> (omni, sector, etc.). That's 1/3 the price of a Canopy AP, and it
> delivers twice the bandwidth in the same spectrum. So I can install
> three seperate AP's for the same price as one Canopy AP.
>
> Also, CPE's can be built for as little as $160 (we use a higher quality
> antenna, so we are closer to $180). Compare that with Canopy at $250ish
> (including PoE and dish). That doesn't even include all the other
> "stuff" you have to have with Canopy (GPS units, Prizm servers, etc.)
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> 3-dB Networks wrote:
>> Can you please explain to me how Trango is 1/3 the price of Canopy?  Last
>> time I checked with was roughly the same price.
>>
>> Daniel White
>> 3-dB Networks
>>
>>   _
>>
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:08 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
>>
>>
>>
>> Chuck,
>>
>> We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really,
>> any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So
> why
>> not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price?
> ;)
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>
>> If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a
> hundred
>>
>> WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that
> are
>>
>> 100% canopy.  And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking
> names
>> in their markets.  I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller
>> WISPS.  It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a 
>> fixed
>
>> guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other
>> features that keep the customer happy and retained.  Come to AF09 and see
>> how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS.  Moreover their new 430 line
>> delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion.  And
>> they are still innovating.
>>
>> While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to
>> have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded.
>>
>> It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this 
>> industry.
>
>> I picked it entirely by chance.  It was either Canopy or Proxim.  I am
> glad
>> I picked what I picked.  Many others picked Trango.  They are able to 
>> make
>
>> it work and earn money.  I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for
>> Canopy.  Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am 
>> sure
>
>> that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the
> send
>> button.
>>
>> I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain
> why
>>
>> this is such a polarizing topic.  Cognitive dissonance seems to come into
>> play.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Butch Evans"  <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List"  <mailto:wireless@wispa.org> 
>> 
>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote:
>>

Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I didn't make the $70/20mbps claim.

$70 represents 1/3rd of canopy's SM price.
20 mbps represents twice a canopy 200 download speed.

The claim was 1/3rd the price and twice the speed was a better way to go.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?


> Doesn't the GPS sync only work if you have the exact same settings as the
> other systems?
>
> Which part is $70/sub?
>
> Is that 20.2 Mbps the new series, since they claim 21 mbit throughput?
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:17 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
>
>> The very best reason to use canopy is because the competitors are using
>> it.  It can peacefully coexist with other systems due to gps sync.  We 
>> are
>> in very tight quarters with a fierce competitor in one very small market.
>> But we never cause each other technical grief.
>>
>> What other product can give my customers 20.2 Mbps (including guaranteed 
>> 7
>> mS latency with 130 subs on an AP?) for $70/sub?
>>
>>  - Original Message - 
>>  From: Travis Johnson
>>  To: WISPA General List
>>  Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:07 PM
>>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
>>
>>
>>  Chuck,
>>
>>  We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And 
>> really,
>> any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So
>> why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the
>> price? ;)
>>
>>  Travis
>>  Microserv
>>
>>  Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>> If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a
>> hundred
>> WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that
>> are
>> 100% canopy.  And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking
>> names
>> in their markets.  I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller
>> WISPS.  It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a 
>> fixed
>> guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other
>> features that keep the customer happy and retained.  Come to AF09 and see
>> how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS.  Moreover their new 430 line
>> delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion.  And
>> they are still innovating.
>>
>> While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to
>> have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded.
>>
>> It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this 
>> industry.
>> I picked it entirely by chance.  It was either Canopy or Proxim.  I am
>> glad
>> I picked what I picked.  Many others picked Trango.  They are able to 
>> make
>> it work and earn money.  I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for
>> Canopy.  Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am 
>> sure
>> that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the
>> send
>> button.
>>
>> I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain
>> why
>> this is such a polarizing topic.  Cognitive dissonance seems to come into
>> play.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
>>
>>
>>  On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote:
>>
>>I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value"
>> decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could
>> support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it
>> today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on
>> the market:
>>  I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix.
>> I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are "cheap".  I am not sure I
>> would say that even MOST of them are cheap.  But enough of them are
>> that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action.
>>
>>Next = Mikrotik
>> Next = Trango, Canopy, etc
>>  

Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Canopy 100 and 200 started at those prices too.
- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Rohrbacher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?


> never mind.  The 400 series sounds great but at $2600 and ap and $600
> for an su it's not for use residential providers.
>
> Brian
>
> Gino Villarini wrote:
>> everywere , we have about 5 APs deployed ...
>>
>>
>> Gino A. Villarini
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
>> tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:08 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
>>
>>
>> Is the 400 series available?  And where?
>>
>> 3-dB Networks wrote:
>>
>> I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of
>> the spectrum
>> interesting...
>>
>> Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync.  Canopy is also more
>> likely to
>> deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of
>> conditions no 802.11
>> based system will.  If I also started thinking about it I'm sure
>> I could
>> think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to
>> deliver
>> less throughput.
>>
>> The problem is roughly modulation.  Compare 802.11b to Canopy
>> instead of
>> 802.11G.  Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series...
>> delivers 21Mbps
>> in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient.  Double
>> that to 20MHz
>> and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps.  Advantage
>> Canopy gives
>> you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel.  So from a innovation standpoint
>> Motorola has
>> taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput...
>> and from a
>> spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that
>> coveted
>> 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc.
>>
>> I think one of the more interesting case studies has been
>> deploying 20
>> Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band.  Try that with
>> any other
>> system.
>>
>> Daniel White
>> 3-dB Networks
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Butch Evans
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
>>
>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find
>> more than
>> a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from
>> 100-1000
>> subscribers that are 100% canopy.  And generally
>> speaking they are
>> kicking butt and taking names in their markets.  I
>> disagree that
>> Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS.  It costs a
>> little
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way.  It would be more
>> accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger.  This was
>> not a
>> "smack" against Canopy.  It was, actually, a compliment to their
>>
>> ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the
>> 2.4GHz
>> band.  As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or
>> not, I
>> can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes,
>> you'd
>> find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys.  So if
>> it's a
>> matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have
>> to
>> say that their take rate is better among those that are not "new
>>
>> startups" or "smaller" (how you define those 2 groups may be
>> different than my definition).  And, for what it's worth, I AM
>> on
>> the Moto list.  ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> And they are still innovating.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting
>> them
>> about.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing
>> in this
>> industry.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are many things that Canopy does well.  There are some
>> things
>> that they do not.  Until recently, Motorola was making comments
>> to
>> the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they
>>

Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?

[Chuck McCown - 3]

The very best reason to use canopy is because the competitors are using it.  It 
can peacefully coexist with other systems due to gps sync.  We are in very 
tight quarters with a fierce competitor in one very small market.  But we never 
cause each other technical grief.

What other product can give my customers 20.2 Mbps (including guaranteed 7 mS 
latency with 130 subs on an AP?) for $70/sub?

  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Johnson 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?


  Chuck,

  We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any 
more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not 
use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;)

  Travis
  Microserv

  Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: 
If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred 
WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 
100% canopy.  And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names 
in their markets.  I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller 
WISPS.  It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed 
guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other 
features that keep the customer happy and retained.  Come to AF09 and see 
how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS.  Moreover their new 430 line 
delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion.  And 
they are still innovating.

While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to 
have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded.

It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. 
I picked it entirely by chance.  It was either Canopy or Proxim.  I am glad 
I picked what I picked.  Many others picked Trango.  They are able to make 
it work and earn money.  I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for 
Canopy.  Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure 
that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send 
button.

I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why 
this is such a polarizing topic.  Cognitive dissonance seems to come into 
play.



- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?


  On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote:

I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value"
decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could
support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it
today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on
the market:
  I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix.
I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are "cheap".  I am not sure I
would say that even MOST of them are cheap.  But enough of them are
that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action.

Next = Mikrotik
Next = Trango, Canopy, etc
  Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class
as Trango and Canopy.

So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last
2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal R&D to focus on WiMax?
  I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened
to the R&D.  The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good
example.  Motorola has delivered a product that just works.  It is
expensive compared to other products sold to the same "marketplace",
but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers.  Better, yet, they are
working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is
available today.  But their primary market isn't the "normal" WISP.
They service companies that are better funded, which typically means
larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos.

I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant.  It wasn't
intended to do that.  I really just wish our industry as a whole
would get out of the hole that we have dug with the "cheaper is
better" mindframe.

-- 

* Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
* http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Amen, nobody ever said you could build it and rest on your laurels.
No small business is safe from changes that come with time.
Evolve or die.  I am not going to sit around complaining the sky is falling.

> So the cost to meet the future needs of our subscribers is real, it's
> not as hard to swallow as one might think. If they preplan and have a
> good investment stratery it should be business as usuall.
>
> George




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Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?

[Chuck McCown - 3]

If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred 
WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 
100% canopy.  And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names 
in their markets.  I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller 
WISPS.  It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed 
guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other 
features that keep the customer happy and retained.  Come to AF09 and see 
how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS.  Moreover their new 430 line 
delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion.  And 
they are still innovating.

While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to 
have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded.

It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. 
I picked it entirely by chance.  It was either Canopy or Proxim.  I am glad 
I picked what I picked.  Many others picked Trango.  They are able to make 
it work and earn money.  I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for 
Canopy.  Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure 
that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send 
button.

I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why 
this is such a polarizing topic.  Cognitive dissonance seems to come into 
play.



- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?


> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote:
>
>>I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value"
>>decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could
>>support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it
>>today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on
>>the market:
>
> I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix.
> I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are "cheap".  I am not sure I
> would say that even MOST of them are cheap.  But enough of them are
> that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action.
>
>>Next = Mikrotik
>>Next = Trango, Canopy, etc
>
> Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class
> as Trango and Canopy.
>
>>So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last
>>2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal R&D to focus on WiMax?
>
> I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened
> to the R&D.  The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good
> example.  Motorola has delivered a product that just works.  It is
> expensive compared to other products sold to the same "marketplace",
> but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers.  Better, yet, they are
> working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is
> available today.  But their primary market isn't the "normal" WISP.
> They service companies that are better funded, which typically means
> larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos.
>
> I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant.  It wasn't
> intended to do that.  I really just wish our industry as a whole
> would get out of the hole that we have dug with the "cheaper is
> better" mindframe.
>
> -- 
> 
> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
> 
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Why not deploy some dragonwave and other high capacity backbone and build 
your own network to cheap BW.
Build to St. Louis with a large microwave backbone and you will wholesale 
all along its entire length.  More than enough to pay for it.

- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>
>>What I have done, you can do too. Just takes lots of time and work
>>and bootstrapping.
>
> Ok..so we're gonna put this whole netflix thing on hold for the next
> 20 years so that I can bury enough fiber to support it?  It seems
> that you are trying to make a point that is not related in any way
> to the NetFlix discussion at all (as the subject line would
> indicate).  I'm not minimizing your accomplishments.  I think that
> it says a LOT about you AND this country that you could accomplish
> that.  I am, however, still stuck with the reality that a LARGE part
> of rural America faces.  There is simply not enough bandwidth
> available at affordable prices to support the kind of requirements
> that we are discussing.  Sure, I could bury a 180 mile long fiber to
> St. Louis, but I seriously doubt anyone would call THAT affordable
> bandwidth.
>
> -- 
> 
> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
> 
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

What I have done, you can do too.
Just takes lots of time and work and bootstrapping.

- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>
>>Check out Garrison Utah or Burbank Nevada.  Doesn't get much more
>>rural than that. Of course I have spent the most part of the last
>>20 years slowly building a fiber and microwave network to get to
>>all these areas.
>
> 1. I never said that you can't get those kinds of access for
> reasonable prices in ANY part of rural America.
>
> 2. You are quoting "micro economics" in a "macro economics"
> discussion.  Put another way, you are using personal experience
> under the assumption that it somehow relates to the "rest of the
> world"...it doesn't.
>
>
>
> -- 
> 
> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
> 
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Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Where do you rate Ubiquity Nanostations or the Bullet?
  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Johnson 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:32 PM
  Subject: [WISPA] WiMax delays?


  I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value" decision. 
If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 
subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real 
"gap" in the products that are available on the market:

  At the bottom = Linksys 
  Next = Mikrotik
  Next = Trango, Canopy, etc
  
  Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc.

  This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul 
solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the "higher 
end" is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station 
(Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an 
entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total 
capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same 
spectrum).

  So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? 
Did everyone stop normal R&D to focus on WiMax?

  Travis
  Microserv

  Butch Evans wrote: 
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote:

  Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?

How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear?  How 
many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too 
high?  How many in this industry are willing to purchase something 
JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER?  Look at how many people in this 
industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet.

Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR 
question.  The problem isn't just "us".  The "big boys" have been 
busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to "buy the 
market".  And too many of "us" have decided that we have to compete 
on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear 
(there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are 
selling service using Linksys gear for APs).  There is at least 3 
WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their 
internet connection.  I'm not condemming the practice as much as I 
am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the 
industry.  It is NOT gone.  It just doesn't exist in the price range 
that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is).

  

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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

OK, maybe not for you.  But I am still going to be there trying.  And when it 
fails you can tell me you told me so.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Johnson 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  You can't oversubscribe it by very much. Most people watch TV from 6:00 to 
10:00PM. What happens when they want to watch TV and it just doesn't work? What 
will you do then? It's not that it will just be "slow" or "sluggish" as normal 
internet services can be when oversubscribed, it just will not work. So then 
what?

  Travis
  Microserv

  Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: 
I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of 
figure.
That includes transport.
And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content.
You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time.
I am willing to take the chance.  That is how we are building out our 
network.

- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.
So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could
work if you had 50-100 on an AP.
  Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40
meg stream.  If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have
120Meg streaming.  At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in
revenue for those that are using that 120Meg.  You'd NEVER get
120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that
kind of money.  A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month
after you include the transport.

What am I missing?  Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't
JUST the last mile, but the business model overall.  The problem CAN
be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming
services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service
isn't the answer.  I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated
service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month.

-- 

* Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
* http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Check out Garrison Utah or Burbank Nevada.  Doesn't get much more rural than 
that.
Of course I have spent the most part of the last 20 years slowly building a 
fiber and microwave network to get to all these areas.

- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>
>>I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month
>>type of figure. That includes transport. And stastically, you can
>>oversub it, even with streaming content. You are never going to
>>have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time. I am willing to
>>take the chance.  That is how we are building out our network.
>
> Can you deliver that speed for that price to 802 Stokelan Drive in
> Malden, MO?  If you can, you're the ONLY one who can.
>
> -- 
> 
> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
> 
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of 
figure.
That includes transport.
And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content.
You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time.
I am willing to take the chance.  That is how we are building out our 
network.

- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>
>>I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.
>>So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could
>>work if you had 50-100 on an AP.
>
> Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40
> meg stream.  If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have
> 120Meg streaming.  At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in
> revenue for those that are using that 120Meg.  You'd NEVER get
> 120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that
> kind of money.  A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month
> after you include the transport.
>
> What am I missing?  Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't
> JUST the last mile, but the business model overall.  The problem CAN
> be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming
> services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service
> isn't the answer.  I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated
> service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month.
>
> -- 
> 
> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I had a physics professor that would allow solutions to problems to be 
submitted in any unit measure.  Since he had TAs and grad students doing the 
grading it was no skin of his nose.  Lots of furlongs per fortnight velocity 
measurements.  Units of photon energy to describe frequency.  But when you 
describe mass as a quantity of molecules of a huge polymer it really got the 
TAs steamed.  Your homework would come back "smelling funny".  The mass one 
didn't pass muster because you couldn't invent a new unit of measure, you 
had to use a published one.

- Original Message - 
From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool


> Since when did the US govt standardize on the metric system? What happened 
> to inches, feet, and miles? LOL, J/K guys.
>
> Scottie
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> Date:  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:33:40 -0600
>
>>According to the bottom of page 105, it's 134 km for cochannel operation 
>>and
>>131 km for adjacent channel operation.  That means, I guess, that I'm SOL
>>for channels 13, 14, 15, and 16.
>>
>>
>>-
>>Mike Hammett
>>Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>From: "John Valenti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:00 PM
>>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List"
>>
>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
>>
>>> Brian,
>>>
>>> Thanks again for this!
>>>
>>> A few comments:
>>> (1) I was surprised to see channels 3 & 4 included, since those are
>>> prohibited everywhere (right?)
>>> (2) you might include a note on your web pages about the 32km canadian
>>> border limitation, also the 40/60km Mexican border limit.
>>> (I'm guessing that would be hard to include as an overlay)
>>> (3) I found a list of the 13 metro areas limited for PLMRS/CMRS
>>> operation at
>>> http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/octqtr/pdf/47cfr90.307.pdf
>>>  (2 page PDF).  For my situation, Detroit has channels 15 & 16, so
>>> channels 14-17 are off limits out to 134km, I think.
>>>
>>> I was also able to use the analog file after a few attempts. (I turned
>>> on everything and locked up Earth the 1st time)  Do you know of a
>>> method to click on one of the analog overlays and find out what it
>>> is?  I see there is one in the next county over, but I don't really
>>> want to go thru that long list and turn them on one at a time.
>>>
>>> Oh, is it OK to point other people at your tool?
>>>
>>> thanks again!
>>>
>>> PS - your webserver has a great connection, I had that 20MB file in
>>> about 30 seconds.  :-)
>>>
>>> On Nov 24, 2008, at 12:09 AM, Brian Webster wrote:
>>>
 I have updated the White Spaces Google Earth Mapping tool to show
 ALL of the
 channels available for Fixed Wireless use. Please go to
 http://www.wirelessmapping.com/sample_maps.htm to download the latest
 version. There is also a second link to a file with the analog low
 power
 stations that may not convert to digital in February. It's a huge
 file and
 is only for reference. You will need to do some research on your own
 to
 determine if any particular station will remain on the air.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
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>>>
>>
>>
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Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool

[Chuck McCown - 3]

All the stations were given an extra set of channels to fire up and operate 
the DTV transmitters.  Mostly on UHF.  This happened years ago and in this 
are we have been receiving a digital TV signal for about 8 years.  Once the 
VHF analog transmitters are switched off, the broadcasters I know say they 
are going to convert the VHF transmitters to digital and fire up more 
content.  Not sure if they get to keep the ownership of the channel or not. 
But the end result will be more free TV.  Where I am I can get 24 channels 
of content (off of about 13 carriers).  That will close to double.  Pretty 
nice to be able to get 40+ channels for free.

- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Webster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 

Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool


>I think some will but I'm not completely sure. Somewhere there is a DTV
> transition database on the FCC web site that may shed more light on the
> topic. Just haven't had the time to research all of that.
>
>
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
> www.wirelessmapping.com 
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mike Hammett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:32 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
>
>
> Are the stations going to change the channels once they vacate their 
> analog
> ones?  I thought I heard that once.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Brian Webster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:09 PM
> To: "WISPA List" 
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
>
>> I have updated the White Spaces Google Earth Mapping tool to show ALL of
>> the
>> channels available for Fixed Wireless use. Please go to
>> http://www.wirelessmapping.com/sample_maps.htm to download the latest
>> version. There is also a second link to a file with the analog low power
>> stations that may not convert to digital in February. It's a huge file 
>> and
>> is only for reference. You will need to do some research on your own to
>> determine if any particular station will remain on the air.
>>
>>
>> Thank You,
>> Brian Webster
>>
>>
>> --
> --
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.  So that could 
give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on 
an AP.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Johnson 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP 
is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on 
this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this 
market can survive on those ratios.

  This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for "video 
streaming" which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote.

  Travis
  Microserv

  Drew Lentz wrote: 
In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for
some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type
service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of
service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service
providers will fall into line, I believe.

Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from
the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device
requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a
decision of higher consumption.

As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all
that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications
mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services required.
Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it will
continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per MB
over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like.

That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet,
the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the
ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of
the cost. 

I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber to
the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave,
Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important to
aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data.

  


On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be again left
in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available connection
at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it, can't get
it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay $1200/mth
for each cell tower to put them on.

Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netflix and these companies that
are making million's of dollars more than we are?

Scottie

-- Original Message --
From: Drew Lentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:41:41 -0600

I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at any level is,
to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't necessarily fit
the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, maybe its
time to change the model.

This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The networks
that can handle these loads and supply the end-user are going to win the
customers. I honestly think the demand of large scale bandwidth is going to
be fed to the end-user by the consumer electronics market. Look at CES last
year. Look how many devices demand connectivity at certain levels. If your
current service provider can't get you what you need, there will always be
someone else who can.

There is some great info here from a recent conference:
http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/citi/events/summit2008

Take a look at the slides. I like the reference to the slide where it breaks
down how much bandwidth utilization there is expected to be per household:
35+ Mbps (and those are numbers from 2006!)
4 VoIP lines @ 100Kbps
2 SDTVs @ 2Mbps
2 HDTVs @ 9 Mbps
1 Gaming device @ 1Mbps
1 High Spedd Internet @ 10Mbps

Scary how quickly it adds up :)

My favorite quote:
³By the year 2010 bandwidth for 20 homes will generate more traffic than
entire Internet in 1995²

-d


On 11/24/08 12:24 AM, "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote:

It will be interesting to see how this plays out... the amount of
bandwidth required to sustain this type of service is not cost
effective. My upstream costs alone are over $50/Mbps. So if someone
wants to run a constant 2Mbps stream, my raw cost is $100 per month
(not including backhaul, support, AP costs, etc.).

Wait until people realize that this type of service isn't going to
be "free" as they think now when they get a $150/month internet
bill, the $40 for DishTV will look pretty 

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Oh, yes,  and I give folks crap for the same thing...
Too bad, I was getting excited.  Thought there was some kind of miracle of 
compression technologies.
- Original Message - 
From: "Eje Gustafsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> No not Kbps but rather KBps so multiply it all with 8 to get Kbit.
>
>>From my own checks I see peaks of well over 2.5Mbit with Netflix on 
>>highest
> quality. As much as 3-3.5Mbit as a matter over a 5Min average.
>
> / Eje
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:52 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
> Did I interpret your data correctly to mean that if you had a sustained
> 256Kbps it would work?
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 2:42 PM
> Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
>> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
>> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
>> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
>> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
>> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>>
>> I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
>> 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
>> may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
>> stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
>> interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A
>>
>> You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
>> to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!
>>
>> --
>> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
>> 314-735-0270
>> http://www.linktechs.net
>> <http://www.linktechs.net/>
>>
>> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
>> <http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp>/*
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

OK, but if you look at Dennis's data, it appears to me that the average was 
in the hundreds of K.
But maybe I didn't read it correctly.

- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Baird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> Chuck it won't work, here are some more specifics, on the codecs
> utilized and bandwidth requirements.
> The bottom two streams 500/1000k are pretty low quality. We are a
> facilities based CLEC and have done a bit of testing with the Roku's,
> for product bundles.
>
> http://blog.netflix.com/2008/11/encoding-for-streaming.html
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
>
>> Did I interpret your data correctly to mean that if you had a sustained
>> 256Kbps it would work?
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 2:42 PM
>> Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>>
>>> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
>>> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
>>> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
>>> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
>>> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
>>> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>>>
>>> I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
>>> 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
>>> may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
>>> stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
>>> interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A
>>>
>>> You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
>>> to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!
>>>
>>> --
>>> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>>> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
>>> 314-735-0270
>>> http://www.linktechs.net
>>> 
>>>
>>> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
>>> /*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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>>
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Did I interpret your data correctly to mean that if you had a sustained 
256Kbps it would work?

- Original Message - 
From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 2:42 PM
Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>
> I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
> 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
> may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
> stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
> interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A
>
> You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
> to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!
>
> --
> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
> 314-735-0270
> http://www.linktechs.net
> 
>
> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
> /*
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Remote Powered Access Pont

[Chuck McCown - 3]

One source:
http://tnrbatteries.com/genesis.html

- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Remote Powered Access Pont


> http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US-GPL-AM-003_0906.pdf
>
> Genesis pure lead EP or XE version will work down to -40.
> They are rated for 100% depth of discharge.  Repeatedly.  400 times.
> And can come back from 100% discharge at -40 to be fully charged.
> They are good for 2 years sitting on the shelf totally unused.
> I don't know of any other battery that can do that.
>
> They also have most of their energy available at super cold temperatures,
> where flooded cells lose most of their energy when cold.
> But you will pay 2 to 3 times more than for a Trojan.
>
> I figure everything by watt hour first.  So you need 5 watts * 24 hours * 
> 30
> days = 3600 watt hours.
> At 30 cents per watt hour, you will end up paying more than $1000 for that
> battery.  Hopefully you can shop around and find them for less.  I used to
> pay 20 cents.  I don't know why they went up so much.
>
> Watt hours / system voltage = amp hours
> 3600/12=300 amp hours.
>
> One of our supervisors recently found a good price (if you can call it 
> good)
> for the gates/hawker/enersys batteries.
> If I can find the source I will post it.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "rabbtux rabbtux" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Remote Powered Access Pont
>
>
>> Thanks for the great info Chuck!  Almost made the trojan battery mistake.
>> what exactly is the battery technology and brand you suggest?  if I have 
>> a
>> 5
>> watt system you suggest a 120W  solar panel.  Also 30 days or 360AH of
>> usable capacity at 12V?
>>
>> Thanks for  the clarification, and the pics that make your experience
>> clear!
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> At 60% depth of discharge they freeze at 0F.  Once frozen they are dead.
>>> Liquid electrolyte batteries need to be liquid to work.
>>> Not to mention the risk of a broken case. (You most likely mean you try
>>> to
>>> avoid taking them below 40% DOD, but 60% has a nice freezing point to
>>> exploit for purposes of rhetoric).
>>>
>>> Trojans were designed for the cabin with the fireplace and the
>>> intermittent
>>> use of the residential solar application.(Really, they were designed
>>> for
>>> golf carts).
>>>
>>> Constant load, constant nightly cycling, periods of no charging and deep
>>> discharge during the coldest days of the year is a different application
>>> and
>>> takes a different battery technology.
>>>
>>> Here is a good VLRA white paper on the temperature issue:
>>> http://www.cdtechno.com/custserv/pdf/7953.pdf
>>>
>>> We use VLRAs inside central offices where there is HVAC.  Not in the
>>> field.
>>> And they are much better than flooded cells like the T-105
>>>
>>> AGMs go in the field. And for solar only a few types of AGMs can be
>>> trusted.
>>>
>>> This app note is full of lots of good info.  It is on the batts we use
>>> that
>>> will still deliver 40% of their power at -40 degrees.
>>> http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US-GPL-AM-003_0906.pdf
>>>
>>> But the only really important point is that in a solar situation, where
>>> you
>>> have weather and you have low temps, very few batteries will totally
>>> recover
>>> from an extreme deep discharge.  And that happens all the time when
>>> people
>>> scrimp on their battery capacity and solar panel capacity.
>>>
>>> 20X watts 30 days autonomy = you will sleep all winter long.
>>>   - Original Message -
>>>  From: Blair Davis
>>>  To: WISPA General List
>>>   Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:56 PM
>>>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Remote Powered Access Pont
>>>
>>>
>>>  Ok.  our answer to that problem has always been to double up on our
>>> total
>>> battery size so we never discharge them below 60%
>>>
>>>  Sounds like you are in a much more inaccessible environment than we 
>>> are!
>>>  And in that kind of location, I'd likely be looking for the same thing.
>>>
>>

Re: [WISPA] one more

[Chuck McCown - 3]

We tried with a bulldozer one year.  Never made it.  One of our guys almost 
went over the edge of a switchback trying.  We gave up, waited till the storm 
blew over and hired the helicopter.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Johnson 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] one more


  That truck would never make it to that tower site... never ever. At least at 
some of our tower sites, imagine snow deep enough that the only thing that 
stops you from going clear over your head is your armpits. Imagine being able 
to dig down 12 feet and still not hit dirt. Then imagine the incline of going 
from 6000ft to 8800ft elevation in that type of snow.

  Travis
  Microserv

  Marlon K. Schafer wrote: 
Dude  Yucko

You need this truck down there!
http://www.odessaoffice.com/wireless/power_truck.htm
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:51 PM
Subject: [WISPA] one more


Not our building, but ours looked just like it.  This is after a week of no 
possible way to access the site.  And of course no sunlight for a week of 
storm.
Then with panels being coated like this, no sunlight until you get up there 
to chop off the ice or do "other" things that are more effective.  By this 
time, a 2 week battery system is very very discharged and very very frozen 
if you didn't do it right.





  

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Re: [WISPA] Remote Powered Access Pont

[Chuck McCown - 3]

http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US-GPL-AM-003_0906.pdf

Genesis pure lead EP or XE version will work down to -40.
They are rated for 100% depth of discharge.  Repeatedly.  400 times.
And can come back from 100% discharge at -40 to be fully charged.
They are good for 2 years sitting on the shelf totally unused.
I don't know of any other battery that can do that.

They also have most of their energy available at super cold temperatures, 
where flooded cells lose most of their energy when cold.
But you will pay 2 to 3 times more than for a Trojan.

I figure everything by watt hour first.  So you need 5 watts * 24 hours * 30 
days = 3600 watt hours.
At 30 cents per watt hour, you will end up paying more than $1000 for that 
battery.  Hopefully you can shop around and find them for less.  I used to 
pay 20 cents.  I don't know why they went up so much.

Watt hours / system voltage = amp hours
3600/12=300 amp hours.

One of our supervisors recently found a good price (if you can call it good) 
for the gates/hawker/enersys batteries.
If I can find the source I will post it.

- Original Message - 
From: "rabbtux rabbtux" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Remote Powered Access Pont


> Thanks for the great info Chuck!  Almost made the trojan battery mistake.
> what exactly is the battery technology and brand you suggest?  if I have a 
> 5
> watt system you suggest a 120W  solar panel.  Also 30 days or 360AH of
> usable capacity at 12V?
>
> Thanks for  the clarification, and the pics that make your experience 
> clear!
>
> On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>
>> At 60% depth of discharge they freeze at 0F.  Once frozen they are dead.
>> Liquid electrolyte batteries need to be liquid to work.
>> Not to mention the risk of a broken case. (You most likely mean you try 
>> to
>> avoid taking them below 40% DOD, but 60% has a nice freezing point to
>> exploit for purposes of rhetoric).
>>
>> Trojans were designed for the cabin with the fireplace and the 
>> intermittent
>> use of the residential solar application.(Really, they were designed 
>> for
>> golf carts).
>>
>> Constant load, constant nightly cycling, periods of no charging and deep
>> discharge during the coldest days of the year is a different application 
>> and
>> takes a different battery technology.
>>
>> Here is a good VLRA white paper on the temperature issue:
>> http://www.cdtechno.com/custserv/pdf/7953.pdf
>>
>> We use VLRAs inside central offices where there is HVAC.  Not in the 
>> field.
>> And they are much better than flooded cells like the T-105
>>
>> AGMs go in the field. And for solar only a few types of AGMs can be
>> trusted.
>>
>> This app note is full of lots of good info.  It is on the batts we use 
>> that
>> will still deliver 40% of their power at -40 degrees.
>> http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US-GPL-AM-003_0906.pdf
>>
>> But the only really important point is that in a solar situation, where 
>> you
>> have weather and you have low temps, very few batteries will totally 
>> recover
>> from an extreme deep discharge.  And that happens all the time when 
>> people
>> scrimp on their battery capacity and solar panel capacity.
>>
>> 20X watts 30 days autonomy = you will sleep all winter long.
>>   - Original Message -
>>  From: Blair Davis
>>  To: WISPA General List
>>   Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:56 PM
>>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Remote Powered Access Pont
>>
>>
>>  Ok.  our answer to that problem has always been to double up on our 
>> total
>> battery size so we never discharge them below 60%
>>
>>  Sounds like you are in a much more inaccessible environment than we are!
>>  And in that kind of location, I'd likely be looking for the same thing.
>>
>>  But, for us, inaccessibility won't last more than a week or so...
>>
>>  Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>> We buy batts that are rated to give you the energy down to -20F.
>> Survive being at-20F while discharged to a stone cold state.
>> And recover when the next available bit of sunlight hits the panel 
>> (perhaps
>> days later).
>> And last 2000 cycles.
>> For that you pay 30 cents per watt hour.  And can sleep at night.
>> (we used to get these for 20 cents, I don't know why they are so much 
>> more
>> now)
>>
>> I just found a website selling a T-105 for $160\each
>> 6 volts, 225 aH  That comes to 11.8