Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-22 Thread RickG 

Thanks Matt! Yes, the first thing I did was set up my own speed test
site "on net".

On 1/22/07, Matt Liotta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

RickG wrote:
> Dave,
>
> Thanks for the explanation. Really, my clients want to improve their
> browsing speed. Of course, like most people, they associate speed with
> speed test website such as speakeasy, etc.
In order to improve speed you need lower RTT and less congestion/packet
loss on any given route. The best way to achieve that is with a proper
blend of transit providers and peers. Additionally, having your own
hosted speedtest helps.

-Matt

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RE: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-22 Thread Jeff Broadwick 
Well said David,

It is very frustrating to have the terms bandied about improperly.  Bonding
sets up one logical pipe.  The traffic is balanced both in and out.  There
are 4 different protocols that I'm aware of to do this:  CEF, MLPPP, MLFR,
and ATM T1 IMA.  All of these require that all circuits be connected to a
single router on either end.

Anything other than bonding does NOT do inbound load balancing really.  You
can balance the outbound traffic to some extent with NAT, and you can do
outbound failover with NAT, but you are out of luck with inbound. 

BGP gives you inbound and outbound failover, but does NOTHING for load
balancing.  

Regards,

Jeff


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David E. Smith
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:40 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

RickG wrote:

> According to the responses I'm getting is that load sharing wont work.
> So, why do I find so many article sayign it does such as
> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=13103 ?

Depends on your definition of load-balancing. Traditionally, that means you
can balance traffic between your connections on a per-packet basis. 
Thus, if you have two 1Mbps connections, you can download a single given
file at 2Mbps. (That's probably technically bonding, not load balancing. 
The terminology is a bit fuzzy, and sometimes means different things to
different people.)

If your two Internet connections are to two different ISPs, that is
basically impossible. With a sufficiently smart router, you'll be able to
download two different files each at 1Mbps, though, which is often "good
enough."

David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-22 Thread Matt Liotta 

RickG wrote:

Dave,

Thanks for the explanation. Really, my clients want to improve their
browsing speed. Of course, like most people, they associate speed with
speed test website such as speakeasy, etc.
In order to improve speed you need lower RTT and less congestion/packet 
loss on any given route. The best way to achieve that is with a proper 
blend of transit providers and peers. Additionally, having your own 
hosted speedtest helps.


-Matt

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Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-21 Thread RickG 

Dave,

Thanks for the explanation. Really, my clients want to improve their
browsing speed. Of course, like most people, they associate speed with
speed test website such as speakeasy, etc.

-RickG

On 1/21/07, David E. Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

RickG wrote:

> According to the responses I'm getting is that load sharing wont work.
> So, why do I find so many article sayign it does such as
> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=13103 ?

Depends on your definition of load-balancing. Traditionally, that means
you can balance traffic between your connections on a per-packet basis.
Thus, if you have two 1Mbps connections, you can download a single given
file at 2Mbps. (That's probably technically bonding, not load balancing.
The terminology is a bit fuzzy, and sometimes means different things to
different people.)

If your two Internet connections are to two different ISPs, that is
basically impossible. With a sufficiently smart router, you'll be able
to download two different files each at 1Mbps, though, which is often
"good enough."

David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-21 Thread David E. Smith 

RickG wrote:


According to the responses I'm getting is that load sharing wont work.
So, why do I find so many article sayign it does such as
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=13103 ?


Depends on your definition of load-balancing. Traditionally, that means 
you can balance traffic between your connections on a per-packet basis. 
Thus, if you have two 1Mbps connections, you can download a single given 
file at 2Mbps. (That's probably technically bonding, not load balancing. 
The terminology is a bit fuzzy, and sometimes means different things to 
different people.)


If your two Internet connections are to two different ISPs, that is 
basically impossible. With a sufficiently smart router, you'll be able 
to download two different files each at 1Mbps, though, which is often 
"good enough."


David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-21 Thread RickG 

This has been the case for me. Everyone wants a unique connection to
the net in case of an outage.

Not to beat a dead horse but back to the load-sharing question:
According to the responses I'm getting is that load sharing wont work.
So, why do I find so many article sayign it does such as
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=13103 ?
-RickG

On 1/21/07, Joe Laura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

We just picked up a big account here. The owner of a coffee shop chain is
adding day trading to his offerings. Someone was trying to sell him two adsl
lines. One for redundancy. After laying the idea of wireless as a true
redundancy we got the contract for the whole chain.
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com


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Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-21 Thread Joe Laura 
We just picked up a big account here. The owner of a coffee shop chain is
adding day trading to his offerings. Someone was trying to sell him two adsl
lines. One for redundancy. After laying the idea of wireless as a true
redundancy we got the contract for the whole chain.
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com


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RE: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-21 Thread Jeff Broadwick 
On top of that, if you are going to two different providers, but the links
go over the same pipe anywhere in the route, you are still vulnerable.  I
know there are some towns where there is only one provider...that's where
wireless can come in...unless you are REALLY remote.

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 6:51 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

And Using two links to one provider does nothing for true redundancy,
diversity, and failover..

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: "RickG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers


> Juat catching up on the list after a busy couple of weeks. So, are we
> saying that all the products that claim load balancing dont work? I
> can testify that the auto-failover works but the load sharing seems to
> make things slower not faster. Keep in mind I have not tested
> everything.
>
> -RickG
>
> On 1/8/07, Jeff Broadwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Great points Butch!
>>
>> There are products out there that claim "load balancing" and "failover", 
>> but
>> there is only one way to do both, and that is through bonding.  Bonding
>> requires that the circuits be terminated in one router on your end and 
>> one
>> router on the provider end.
>>
>> The only true failover with multiple providers is BGP, although there are
>> companies claiming otherwise on that also.  BGP does nothing for load
>> balancing.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Butch Evans
>> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 1:49 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers
>>
>> On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, David E. Smith wrote:
>>
>> >> This is for the end user cpe side. I'd like to see both fail-over and
>> >> load balancing but fail-over is priority. No need for wireless. I'll
>> >> look into the microtik. Thanks! -RickG
>>
>> Rick, keeping in mind that "load balancing" where you don't control both
>> ends of both links is not truly possible, there is a way to SORT OF get 
>> this
>> effect.  The problem is that some things have to be treated in a special 
>> way
>> when you are using NAT (actually, masquerade, but we won't go there). 
>> VoIP,
>> P2P, VPN and a few others come to mind.  Either way, there are some 
>> things
>> you can do to make this work with MT, and it's not that hard, but it IS a
>> bit time consuming to get it right.
>>
>> As for failover, there are several ways to do this, and some of them are
>> pretty simple.  A bit of scripting knowledge is required, but other than
>> that, it is not that bad to do.  There are some examples in the manual 
>> (as
>> David pointed out)
>>
>> >Mikrotik RouterOS manual. In a pinch, I know we've got one or two
>> >Mikrotik trainers on the list; you could get them to show you how to do
>> >it. You only have to pay for it once, then you can just copy-and-paste
>> >the configuration from there on out. :D
>>
>> Well, copy/paste for policy routing is not really that cut and dried.  It

>> is
>> best to understand what the policy states, then moving it to a new system

>> is
>> not that hard.  As I said, it is somewhat time consuming to get it 
>> working,
>> however.
>>
>> >Fair warning, I haven't used the RouterBoard 150 hardware I mentioned,
>> >but most of their other hardware has treated me well, so I wouldn't
>> >expect that board to be any different.
>>
>> I like the 150...it is a very inexpensive solution for a low end router
>> (just $70 plus a case and powersupply).  The 153 is only $120 and you can
>> add radio cards.
>>
>> --
>> Butch Evans
>> Network Engineering and Security Consulting
>> 573-276-2879
>> http://www.butchevans.com/
>> My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
>> Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant
>> http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html
>> --
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>

Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-20 Thread RickG 

lol! That really makes sense. I use two differnt providers with two
different technolgies (wireless & dsl). Thanks! RickG

On 1/20/07, Tom DeReggi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

And Using two links to one provider does nothing for true redundancy,
diversity, and failover..

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: "RickG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers


> Juat catching up on the list after a busy couple of weeks. So, are we
> saying that all the products that claim load balancing dont work? I
> can testify that the auto-failover works but the load sharing seems to
> make things slower not faster. Keep in mind I have not tested
> everything.
>
> -RickG
>
> On 1/8/07, Jeff Broadwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Great points Butch!
>>
>> There are products out there that claim "load balancing" and "failover",
>> but
>> there is only one way to do both, and that is through bonding.  Bonding
>> requires that the circuits be terminated in one router on your end and
>> one
>> router on the provider end.
>>
>> The only true failover with multiple providers is BGP, although there are
>> companies claiming otherwise on that also.  BGP does nothing for load
>> balancing.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Butch Evans
>> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 1:49 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers
>>
>> On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, David E. Smith wrote:
>>
>> >> This is for the end user cpe side. I'd like to see both fail-over and
>> >> load balancing but fail-over is priority. No need for wireless. I'll
>> >> look into the microtik. Thanks! -RickG
>>
>> Rick, keeping in mind that "load balancing" where you don't control both
>> ends of both links is not truly possible, there is a way to SORT OF get
>> this
>> effect.  The problem is that some things have to be treated in a special
>> way
>> when you are using NAT (actually, masquerade, but we won't go there).
>> VoIP,
>> P2P, VPN and a few others come to mind.  Either way, there are some
>> things
>> you can do to make this work with MT, and it's not that hard, but it IS a
>> bit time consuming to get it right.
>>
>> As for failover, there are several ways to do this, and some of them are
>> pretty simple.  A bit of scripting knowledge is required, but other than
>> that, it is not that bad to do.  There are some examples in the manual
>> (as
>> David pointed out)
>>
>> >Mikrotik RouterOS manual. In a pinch, I know we've got one or two
>> >Mikrotik trainers on the list; you could get them to show you how to do
>> >it. You only have to pay for it once, then you can just copy-and-paste
>> >the configuration from there on out. :D
>>
>> Well, copy/paste for policy routing is not really that cut and dried.  It
>> is
>> best to understand what the policy states, then moving it to a new system
>> is
>> not that hard.  As I said, it is somewhat time consuming to get it
>> working,
>> however.
>>
>> >Fair warning, I haven't used the RouterBoard 150 hardware I mentioned,
>> >but most of their other hardware has treated me well, so I wouldn't
>> >expect that board to be any different.
>>
>> I like the 150...it is a very inexpensive solution for a low end router
>> (just $70 plus a case and powersupply).  The 153 is only $120 and you can
>> add radio cards.
>>
>> --
>> Butch Evans
>> Network Engineering and Security Consulting
>> 573-276-2879
>> http://www.butchevans.com/
>> My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
>> Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant
>> http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html
>> --
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
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Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-20 Thread Tom DeReggi 
And Using two links to one provider does nothing for true redundancy, 
diversity, and failover..


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "RickG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers



Juat catching up on the list after a busy couple of weeks. So, are we
saying that all the products that claim load balancing dont work? I
can testify that the auto-failover works but the load sharing seems to
make things slower not faster. Keep in mind I have not tested
everything.

-RickG

On 1/8/07, Jeff Broadwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Great points Butch!

There are products out there that claim "load balancing" and "failover", 
but

there is only one way to do both, and that is through bonding.  Bonding
requires that the circuits be terminated in one router on your end and 
one

router on the provider end.

The only true failover with multiple providers is BGP, although there are
companies claiming otherwise on that also.  BGP does nothing for load
balancing.

Jeff


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 1:49 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, David E. Smith wrote:

>> This is for the end user cpe side. I'd like to see both fail-over and
>> load balancing but fail-over is priority. No need for wireless. I'll
>> look into the microtik. Thanks! -RickG

Rick, keeping in mind that "load balancing" where you don't control both
ends of both links is not truly possible, there is a way to SORT OF get 
this
effect.  The problem is that some things have to be treated in a special 
way
when you are using NAT (actually, masquerade, but we won't go there). 
VoIP,
P2P, VPN and a few others come to mind.  Either way, there are some 
things

you can do to make this work with MT, and it's not that hard, but it IS a
bit time consuming to get it right.

As for failover, there are several ways to do this, and some of them are
pretty simple.  A bit of scripting knowledge is required, but other than
that, it is not that bad to do.  There are some examples in the manual 
(as

David pointed out)

>Mikrotik RouterOS manual. In a pinch, I know we've got one or two
>Mikrotik trainers on the list; you could get them to show you how to do
>it. You only have to pay for it once, then you can just copy-and-paste
>the configuration from there on out. :D

Well, copy/paste for policy routing is not really that cut and dried.  It 
is
best to understand what the policy states, then moving it to a new system 
is
not that hard.  As I said, it is somewhat time consuming to get it 
working,

however.

>Fair warning, I haven't used the RouterBoard 150 hardware I mentioned,
>but most of their other hardware has treated me well, so I wouldn't
>expect that board to be any different.

I like the 150...it is a very inexpensive solution for a low end router
(just $70 plus a case and powersupply).  The 153 is only $120 and you can
add radio cards.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html
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Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-19 Thread RickG 

Juat catching up on the list after a busy couple of weeks. So, are we
saying that all the products that claim load balancing dont work? I
can testify that the auto-failover works but the load sharing seems to
make things slower not faster. Keep in mind I have not tested
everything.

-RickG

On 1/8/07, Jeff Broadwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Great points Butch!

There are products out there that claim "load balancing" and "failover", but
there is only one way to do both, and that is through bonding.  Bonding
requires that the circuits be terminated in one router on your end and one
router on the provider end.

The only true failover with multiple providers is BGP, although there are
companies claiming otherwise on that also.  BGP does nothing for load
balancing.

Jeff


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 1:49 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, David E. Smith wrote:

>> This is for the end user cpe side. I'd like to see both fail-over and
>> load balancing but fail-over is priority. No need for wireless. I'll
>> look into the microtik. Thanks! -RickG

Rick, keeping in mind that "load balancing" where you don't control both
ends of both links is not truly possible, there is a way to SORT OF get this
effect.  The problem is that some things have to be treated in a special way
when you are using NAT (actually, masquerade, but we won't go there).  VoIP,
P2P, VPN and a few others come to mind.  Either way, there are some things
you can do to make this work with MT, and it's not that hard, but it IS a
bit time consuming to get it right.

As for failover, there are several ways to do this, and some of them are
pretty simple.  A bit of scripting knowledge is required, but other than
that, it is not that bad to do.  There are some examples in the manual (as
David pointed out)

>Mikrotik RouterOS manual. In a pinch, I know we've got one or two
>Mikrotik trainers on the list; you could get them to show you how to do
>it. You only have to pay for it once, then you can just copy-and-paste
>the configuration from there on out. :D

Well, copy/paste for policy routing is not really that cut and dried.  It is
best to understand what the policy states, then moving it to a new system is
not that hard.  As I said, it is somewhat time consuming to get it working,
however.

>Fair warning, I haven't used the RouterBoard 150 hardware I mentioned,
>but most of their other hardware has treated me well, so I wouldn't
>expect that board to be any different.

I like the 150...it is a very inexpensive solution for a low end router
(just $70 plus a case and powersupply).  The 153 is only $120 and you can
add radio cards.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html
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RE: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-08 Thread Jeff Broadwick 
Great points Butch!

There are products out there that claim "load balancing" and "failover", but
there is only one way to do both, and that is through bonding.  Bonding
requires that the circuits be terminated in one router on your end and one
router on the provider end. 

The only true failover with multiple providers is BGP, although there are
companies claiming otherwise on that also.  BGP does nothing for load
balancing.

Jeff


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 1:49 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, David E. Smith wrote:

>> This is for the end user cpe side. I'd like to see both fail-over and 
>> load balancing but fail-over is priority. No need for wireless. I'll 
>> look into the microtik. Thanks! -RickG

Rick, keeping in mind that "load balancing" where you don't control both
ends of both links is not truly possible, there is a way to SORT OF get this
effect.  The problem is that some things have to be treated in a special way
when you are using NAT (actually, masquerade, but we won't go there).  VoIP,
P2P, VPN and a few others come to mind.  Either way, there are some things
you can do to make this work with MT, and it's not that hard, but it IS a
bit time consuming to get it right.

As for failover, there are several ways to do this, and some of them are
pretty simple.  A bit of scripting knowledge is required, but other than
that, it is not that bad to do.  There are some examples in the manual (as
David pointed out)

>Mikrotik RouterOS manual. In a pinch, I know we've got one or two 
>Mikrotik trainers on the list; you could get them to show you how to do 
>it. You only have to pay for it once, then you can just copy-and-paste 
>the configuration from there on out. :D

Well, copy/paste for policy routing is not really that cut and dried.  It is
best to understand what the policy states, then moving it to a new system is
not that hard.  As I said, it is somewhat time consuming to get it working,
however.

>Fair warning, I haven't used the RouterBoard 150 hardware I mentioned, 
>but most of their other hardware has treated me well, so I wouldn't 
>expect that board to be any different.

I like the 150...it is a very inexpensive solution for a low end router
(just $70 plus a case and powersupply).  The 153 is only $120 and you can
add radio cards.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html
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Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-07 Thread RickG 

Another thing for my R&D department! Thanks! -RickG

On 1/7/07, Butch Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, David E. Smith wrote:

>> This is for the end user cpe side. I'd like to see both fail-over and
>> load balancing but fail-over is priority. No need for wireless. I'll
>> look into the microtik. Thanks! -RickG

Rick, keeping in mind that "load balancing" where you don't control
both ends of both links is not truly possible, there is a way to
SORT OF get this effect.  The problem is that some things have to be
treated in a special way when you are using NAT (actually,
masquerade, but we won't go there).  VoIP, P2P, VPN and a few others
come to mind.  Either way, there are some things you can do to make
this work with MT, and it's not that hard, but it IS a bit time
consuming to get it right.

As for failover, there are several ways to do this, and some of them
are pretty simple.  A bit of scripting knowledge is required, but
other than that, it is not that bad to do.  There are some examples
in the manual (as David pointed out)

>Mikrotik RouterOS manual. In a pinch, I know we've got one or two
>Mikrotik trainers on the list; you could get them to show you how
>to do it. You only have to pay for it once, then you can just
>copy-and-paste the configuration from there on out. :D

Well, copy/paste for policy routing is not really that cut and
dried.  It is best to understand what the policy states, then moving
it to a new system is not that hard.  As I said, it is somewhat time
consuming to get it working, however.

>Fair warning, I haven't used the RouterBoard 150 hardware I
>mentioned, but most of their other hardware has treated me well, so
>I wouldn't expect that board to be any different.

I like the 150...it is a very inexpensive solution for a low end
router (just $70 plus a case and powersupply).  The 153 is only $120
and you can add radio cards.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html
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-RickG
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Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-06 Thread Butch Evans 

On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, David E. Smith wrote:


This is for the end user cpe side. I'd like to see both fail-over and
load balancing but fail-over is priority. No need for wireless. I'll
look into the microtik. Thanks! -RickG


Rick, keeping in mind that "load balancing" where you don't control 
both ends of both links is not truly possible, there is a way to 
SORT OF get this effect.  The problem is that some things have to be 
treated in a special way when you are using NAT (actually, 
masquerade, but we won't go there).  VoIP, P2P, VPN and a few others 
come to mind.  Either way, there are some things you can do to make 
this work with MT, and it's not that hard, but it IS a bit time 
consuming to get it right.


As for failover, there are several ways to do this, and some of them 
are pretty simple.  A bit of scripting knowledge is required, but 
other than that, it is not that bad to do.  There are some examples 
in the manual (as David pointed out)


Mikrotik RouterOS manual. In a pinch, I know we've got one or two 
Mikrotik trainers on the list; you could get them to show you how 
to do it. You only have to pay for it once, then you can just 
copy-and-paste the configuration from there on out. :D


Well, copy/paste for policy routing is not really that cut and 
dried.  It is best to understand what the policy states, then moving 
it to a new system is not that hard.  As I said, it is somewhat time 
consuming to get it working, however.


Fair warning, I haven't used the RouterBoard 150 hardware I 
mentioned, but most of their other hardware has treated me well, so 
I wouldn't expect that board to be any different.


I like the 150...it is a very inexpensive solution for a low end 
router (just $70 plus a case and powersupply).  The 153 is only $120 
and you can add radio cards.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html
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Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-06 Thread David E. Smith 

RickG wrote:


This is for the end user cpe side. I'd like to see both fail-over and
load balancing but fail-over is priority. No need for wireless. I'll
look into the microtik. Thanks! -RickG


I could never get load balancing and policy routing to work quite right, 
but it also wasn't a high priority for any of the locations where I've 
done this. And simple failover is detailed in the Mikrotik RouterOS 
manual. In a pinch, I know we've got one or two Mikrotik trainers on the 
list; you could get them to show you how to do it. You only have to pay 
for it once, then you can just copy-and-paste the configuration from 
there on out. :D


Fair warning, I haven't used the RouterBoard 150 hardware I mentioned, 
but most of their other hardware has treated me well, so I wouldn't 
expect that board to be any different.


David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-06 Thread RickG 

David,

This is for the end user cpe side. I'd like to see both fail-over and
load balancing but fail-over is priority. No need for wireless. I'll
look into the microtik. Thanks! -RickG

On 1/6/07, David E. Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

RickG wrote:

> Hey, I've been testing Dual-WAN routers. I've used Xincom, Linksys, &
> D-Link. The Linksys seems to be most reliable because it has a "health
> check feature". Has anyone out there tried anything else?

Are you just looking for redundancy (i.e. automatic failover so if one
ISP or connection dies, you'll more-or-less transparently switch to the
second one), or for bonding or load balancing (i.e. double your
bandwidth by using both connections at once)?

Either way, building a system with Mikrotik's RouterOS software is
probably the answer you're looking for, or at least an acceptable
answer. Automatic failover is so easy, even I was able to figure it out;
the other fancy stuff you'd have to read up a bit, but it's quite possible.

Heck, the new(ish) RouterBoard 150 hardware comes with the software, and
the board itself can be found for around $70. Add in a power supply and
a case of some sort, and you've got a nice complete setup for around
$100. (I'm assuming you need JUST routing here; if you want this to be a
wireless client as well, you'd need a slightly more expensive piece of kit.)

David Smith
MVN.net
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-RickG
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Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-06 Thread RickG 

Nice article! Thx! RickG

On 1/6/07, CHUCK  PROFITO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

NO EXPERIENCE, BUT AN INTERESTING ARTICLE TO READ AT
http://www.networkworld.com/reviews/2004/0913rev.html
CHUCK

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 12:35 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers


Happy New Year!

Hey, I've been testing Dual-WAN routers. I've used Xincom, Linksys, &
D-Link. The Linksys seems to be most reliable because it has a "health check
feature". Has anyone out there tried anything else?

-RickG
Palm Beach Broadband
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Re: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-06 Thread David E. Smith 

RickG wrote:


Hey, I've been testing Dual-WAN routers. I've used Xincom, Linksys, &
D-Link. The Linksys seems to be most reliable because it has a "health
check feature". Has anyone out there tried anything else?


Are you just looking for redundancy (i.e. automatic failover so if one 
ISP or connection dies, you'll more-or-less transparently switch to the 
second one), or for bonding or load balancing (i.e. double your 
bandwidth by using both connections at once)?


Either way, building a system with Mikrotik's RouterOS software is 
probably the answer you're looking for, or at least an acceptable 
answer. Automatic failover is so easy, even I was able to figure it out; 
the other fancy stuff you'd have to read up a bit, but it's quite possible.


Heck, the new(ish) RouterBoard 150 hardware comes with the software, and 
the board itself can be found for around $70. Add in a power supply and 
a case of some sort, and you've got a nice complete setup for around 
$100. (I'm assuming you need JUST routing here; if you want this to be a 
wireless client as well, you'd need a slightly more expensive piece of kit.)


David Smith
MVN.net
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RE: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers

2007-01-06 Thread CHUCK PROFITO 
NO EXPERIENCE, BUT AN INTERESTING ARTICLE TO READ AT
http://www.networkworld.com/reviews/2004/0913rev.html 
CHUCK

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 12:35 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Dual-WAN routers


Happy New Year!

Hey, I've been testing Dual-WAN routers. I've used Xincom, Linksys, &
D-Link. The Linksys seems to be most reliable because it has a "health check
feature". Has anyone out there tried anything else?

-RickG
Palm Beach Broadband
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Re: [WISPA] Dual WAN Routers

2006-06-19 Thread Jon Langeler 
Unlesss your doing BGP/OSPF or something fancy, might want to check out 
www.hotbrick.com ~$250. You can configure some nice little things(email 
alert, universal client on LAN, services 'binding', desired 
loadbalancing %, etc.)in a matter of minutes that would take 
considerably longer on a Mikrotik(time=money right?). An this is coming 
from a Mikrotik fan!!! Now if Mikrotik started developing wizards like 
they have for the hotspot setup...


Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech

Bo Hamilton wrote:


Hello fellow list dwellers!
I'm in the market for a dual WAN router.  Could I get some feedback on 
the some that you guys and gals are using.  I have some clients using 
me as a backup for their T1's, so Im just trying to find out wich 
one's are the best to go with.  
 
thanks,
 
Bo Hamilton
NCOWirless.com 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 



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RE: [WISPA] Dual WAN Routers

2006-06-19 Thread Charles Wu 
Title: Message



it's a 
bit more complicated than OSPF if you're trying to backup ANOTHER provider's 
connection (assuming separate ASes, etc)
 
-Charles
 
P.S. 
-- ASes = Plural for Autonamous Systems, not that other dirty word 
=/
 
 
---CWLabTechnology 
Architectshttp://www.cwlab.com 

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  Mac DearmanSent: Monday, June 19, 2006 10:03 AMTo: 
  'WISPA General List'Subject: RE: [WISPA] Dual WAN 
  Routers
  
  Bo,
   
    I would use a 
  MikroTik box in an indoor enclosure, The RB532 w/64Megs of ram running OSPF 
  would be easy, fast and as reliable as anything I know. Another solution if 
  you were looking for a rack mount set up would be to get a Cisco router and 
  drop a couple modules in it and do their version of OSPF. You can generally 
  find a good price on some used (but guaranteed) Cisco gear on eBay at a nice 
  price.
   
   
  
  Mac 
  Dearman
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bo HamiltonSent: Monday, June 19, 2006 9:05 
  AMTo: WISPA General 
  ListSubject: [WISPA] Dual 
  WAN Routers
   
  
  Hello fellow list 
  dwellers!
  
  I'm in the market for a dual WAN router.  
  Could I get some feedback on the some that you guys and gals are 
  using.  I have some clients using me as a backup for their T1's, so Im 
  just trying to find out wich one's are the best to go with.   
  
  
   
  
  thanks,
  
   
  
  Bo Hamilton
  
  NCOWirless.com  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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RE: [WISPA] Dual WAN Routers

2006-06-19 Thread Charles Wu 
Title: Message



are 
you planning on getting your customer an AS & running 
BGP?
 
if not 
-- and you're willing to roll up your sleaves a bit, you can "hack it" w/ some 
Mikrotik scripting (In my ISP days, one of my customers back in 2002/2003, Larry 
Yunker actually, was doing this b/n our connection and a Verio T1) -- not 
perfect, b/c you'd have to "NAT" the backup link, but it kinda 
works
 
-Charles
---CWLabTechnology 
Architectshttp://www.cwlab.com 

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  Bo HamiltonSent: Monday, June 19, 2006 9:05 AMTo: 
  WISPA General ListSubject: [WISPA] Dual WAN 
  Routers
  Hello fellow list dwellers!
  I'm in the market for a dual WAN router.  Could I get some 
  feedback on the some that you guys and gals are using.  I have some 
  clients using me as a backup for their T1's, so Im just trying to find out 
  wich one's are the best to go with.   
   
  thanks,
   
  Bo Hamilton
  NCOWirless.com  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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Re: [WISPA] Dual WAN Routers

2006-06-19 Thread Bo Hamilton 
Thanks everyone for all the feedback!!!  
 
Bo 
On 6/19/06, Sam Tetherow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If you are familiar with RouterOS a routerboard 500 would do the trickand only run you about $175
   Sam Tetherow   Sandhills WirelessDylan Oliver wrote:> You might check Peplink.com  for its Balance> products -
> http://www.peplink.com/productsLoader.php?productName=balance . The> 200 supports two WAN connections with max throughput of 30 Mbps, and
> the 700 has seven WAN ports with max throughput of 350 Mbps. They are> $845 and $3995, respectively.>> I've been watching these guys with interest, and was happy to see> their Surf product selected as the first Tropos-approved client bridge.
>> Best,> --> Dylan Oliver> Primaverity, LLC !DSPAM:16,4496b95d180887450237654!--  Sam Tetherow  Sandhills Wireless--WISPA Wireless List: 
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Re: [WISPA] Dual WAN Routers

2006-06-19 Thread Sam Tetherow 
If you are familiar with RouterOS a routerboard 500 would do the trick 
and only run you about $175


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

Dylan Oliver wrote:
You might check Peplink.com  for its Balance 
products - 
http://www.peplink.com/productsLoader.php?productName=balance . The 
200 supports two WAN connections with max throughput of 30 Mbps, and 
the 700 has seven WAN ports with max throughput of 350 Mbps. They are 
$845 and $3995, respectively.


I've been watching these guys with interest, and was happy to see 
their Surf product selected as the first Tropos-approved client bridge.


Best,
--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC !DSPAM:16,4496b95d180887450237654! 



--
  Sam Tetherow
  Sandhills Wireless

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RE: [WISPA] Dual WAN Routers

2006-06-19 Thread Mac Dearman 








Bo,

 

  I would use a MikroTik box in an indoor
enclosure, The RB532 w/64Megs of ram running OSPF would be easy, fast and as
reliable as anything I know. Another solution if you were looking for a rack
mount set up would be to get a Cisco router and drop a couple modules in it and
do their version of OSPF. You can generally find a good price on some used (but
guaranteed) Cisco gear on eBay at a nice price.

 

 



Mac Dearman











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bo Hamilton
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 9:05
AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Dual WAN Routers



 



Hello fellow list dwellers!





I'm in the market for a dual WAN router.  Could I get some
feedback on the some that you guys and gals are using.  I have some
clients using me as a backup for their T1's, so Im just trying to find out wich
one's are the best to go with.   





 





thanks,





 





Bo Hamilton





NCOWirless.com  
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 








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Re: [WISPA] Dual WAN Routers

2006-06-19 Thread Butch Evans 

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, Bo Hamilton wrote:

I'm in the market for a dual WAN router.  Could I get some feedback 
on the some that you guys and gals are using.  I have some clients 
using me as a backup for their T1's, so Im just trying to find out 
wich one's are the best to go with.


Mikrotik with 3 ethernet ports?
--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Dual WAN Routers

2006-06-19 Thread Dylan Oliver 
You might check Peplink.com for its Balance products - http://www.peplink.com/productsLoader.php?productName=balance
. The 200 supports two WAN connections with max throughput of 30 Mbps, and the 700 has seven WAN ports with max throughput of 350 Mbps. They are $845 and $3995, respectively.I've been watching these guys with interest, and was happy to see their Surf product selected as the first Tropos-approved client bridge.
Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC
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Re: [WISPA] Dual WAN Routers

2006-06-19 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 



I have a Hawking wireless one.  Nothing to 
write home about thought.
 
If there's a t-1 involved I'd think you'd want to 
use the cisco (or whatever) that's already on the t-1.
 
If you are going to back up a t-1 I'd certainly 
look at a higher end unit than a Linksys or something along those lines.  
They'd be fine for backing up dsl or cable but not t-1.
 
Check with the image stream guys.  Jeff's on 
this list.
 
Or check out MT.  Butch sits in here 
too.
Marlon(509) 
982-2181   
Equipment sales(408) 907-6910 
(Vonage)    
Consulting services42846865 
(icq)    
And I run my own wisp!64.146.146.12 (net meeting)www.odessaoffice.com/wirelesswww.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Bo 
  Hamilton 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 7:05 AM
  Subject: [WISPA] Dual WAN Routers
  
  Hello fellow list dwellers!
  I'm in the market for a dual WAN router.  Could I get some 
  feedback on the some that you guys and gals are using.  I have some 
  clients using me as a backup for their T1's, so Im just trying to find out 
  wich one's are the best to go with.   
   
  thanks,
   
  Bo Hamilton
  NCOWirless.com  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  

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