Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
I've found similar assistance going to Economic Development folks. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/21/2010 11:32 PM, Robert West wrote: I've tried. Oh boy, have I tried! I look at every little telco farm along the road, cruise the railroad crossings looking for fiber, visit the county engineers office asking for maps of underground lines. Call the local telco/cable office, beat up the Time Warner guy or gal for info.. It's all one big ol' secret. OH! One county that I'm in, they have a guy whose only job is to HELP provide info for the betterment of business and to help the rural folk. His answer when I ask if he can find out fiber locations... His answer Wow, great idea! But... I dunno. End of conversation. Sucks. Me- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 10:48 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3? Agreed. It amazes me how little people know about the telecommunications infrastructure in their area. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/20/2010 5:57 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: I have been quietly watching this discussion I don't claim to be an expert, but being a wire line ISP, let me add / clarify some thoughts / facts T1 / T3 or DS3 / OC3 are all TDM / Legacy services T1, can be extended (long distance) via field repeaters... (T1's are based on HDSL technology and go about 12000ft from the CO or Repeater.) T3/DS3 are peeled off OC3 or Sonet (optical) MuxesThese are larger expensive pieces of equipment that require a lot of power and are fiber fed. While all of the legacy TDM services are regulated (i.e the price is disclosed on a tariff) but the ILEC is allowed to recover build out costs... these costs are high, in addition, the ILEC's are also aware that these High Cap transports are used by other Competitors and as such exercise full discretion on discouraging purchase of these circuits, by using extra inflated build out costs, and if you agree to pay that, then the 2nd option they use is extra extra long build out time schedule... 9 to 12 months easy. For Enterprise customers, they will do the build at no cost or little cost, but the Enterprise customer also has to provide them with space and power, typically 2-3 racks of space and 20-40 amps of power. Today, the ILEC's are not interested in doing such buildout, unless someone is buying SONET transport from them or a bundle of multiple DS3's / OC'3 combination, and there are a few more if's... The most cost effective form of transport that an ISP / WISP can purchase from a Carrier (ILEC or Cable Co or another type of provider) would be Ethernet .. 100Meg or Gig E While these are un-regulated services, which means an ILEC's can exercise their discretion on providing this type of service to you and I or another Carrier however in many places (typically office buildings in a metro downtown area) would have equipment / fiber already installed that they can deliver the service at that location. These days the local Cable Company who has been doing fiber build outs for their cable plants is also pretty eager to sell IP Transit or Ethernet Transport over the Fiber system.. Most of them are working on a pretty fair means of pricing the fiber service and will not discriminate against service providers... (most of them...) Another often overlooked fiber carrier is the local Power Company. Most power companies have a Fiber / Network Division they have been the largest providers of dark fiber for a lot of carriers (including cell carriers, when they cell carriers were not owned by the ILEC and the ILEC would not provide them high speed pipes to the cell towers..). But these folks are normally harder to track down unless they are aggressively selling services... I often collect Network Maps from carriers and competitive service providers, just to be able to find out what are On-Net locations for them... make life much easier in determining where to pickup the service from rather than having them do the buildout and bring them to where you are Hope this helps. Regards Faisal Imtiaz Snappy InternetTelecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 7/20/2010 6:19 PM, RickG wrote: In my previous life as an ATT Cellular switch manager, we had hundreds of T1'sT3's ordered that never came in - yes, I mean never. And we practically had a blank check! -RickG On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmannkh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
But interestingly enough, I had many phone calls from inside the manhole in Manhattan. NO PLACE TO CONNECT! HA! It was either no facilities existing or all facilities taken. The East coast always sucked. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 1:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3? LOL! Ya, we had some overly optimistic carriers alright. Trying to get T1's at cell towers in the middle of cornfield was a challenge. But wait, it gets better - E911 came along and we had to get addresses for the tower - lol! On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: When I was a Qwest Install Manager, I had a folder that I called, Never Gonna Happen. Mostly very rural areas with zero facilities yet the sales department were very optimistic. The best one that comes to mind was a company called Austin Powder. They make explosives so they tend to locate their facilities WAY out in the middle of nowhere. A T-1 out in the desert, 50 miles from any phone line? SURE! Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 6:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3? In my previous life as an ATT Cellular switch manager, we had hundreds of T1's T3's ordered that never came in - yes, I mean never. And we practically had a blank check! -RickG On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmann kh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones closest to our network, made an agreement with a tenant nearby, and did a wireless PtP to connect it to our network. Moral of the story, we were shooting in the dark until we had an in in the right department at ATT. On a related note, does anyone have an experience with Charter's fiber services? -- Kristian Hoffmann System Administrator kh...@fire2wire.com http://www.fire2wire.com Office - 209-543-1800 | Fax - 209-545-1469 | Toll Free - 800-905-FIRE On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 22:33 -0500, Roger Howard wrote: Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3 and upgrade my bandwidth. Not so. Just because you can get a T1 doesn't mean you can get a T3 without huge buildout costs. I was quoted $400,000 dollars to upgrade to a T3. I managed to get around it because otherwise ATT would have had to install a high count copper line down my road to be able to keep offering POTS service here, so I got lucky, and had a free install. But you may not be that fortunate. I just thought if I posted this, it might give some people a heads up to start planning for more bandwidth when you're coming close to needing t3 type capacity. Thanks, Roger -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
When I was a Qwest Install Manager, I had a folder that I called, Never Gonna Happen. Mostly very rural areas with zero facilities yet the sales department were very optimistic. The best one that comes to mind was a company called Austin Powder. They make explosives so they tend to locate their facilities WAY out in the middle of nowhere. A T-1 out in the desert, 50 miles from any phone line? SURE! Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 6:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3? In my previous life as an ATT Cellular switch manager, we had hundreds of T1's T3's ordered that never came in - yes, I mean never. And we practically had a blank check! -RickG On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmann kh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones closest to our network, made an agreement with a tenant nearby, and did a wireless PtP to connect it to our network. Moral of the story, we were shooting in the dark until we had an in in the right department at ATT. On a related note, does anyone have an experience with Charter's fiber services? -- Kristian Hoffmann System Administrator kh...@fire2wire.com http://www.fire2wire.com Office - 209-543-1800 | Fax - 209-545-1469 | Toll Free - 800-905-FIRE On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 22:33 -0500, Roger Howard wrote: Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3 and upgrade my bandwidth. Not so. Just because you can get a T1 doesn't mean you can get a T3 without huge buildout costs. I was quoted $400,000 dollars to upgrade to a T3. I managed to get around it because otherwise ATT would have had to install a high count copper line down my road to be able to keep offering POTS service here, so I got lucky, and had a free install. But you may not be that fortunate. I just thought if I posted this, it might give some people a heads up to start planning for more bandwidth when you're coming close to needing t3 type capacity. Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
LOL! Ya, we had some overly optimistic carriers alright. Trying to get T1's at cell towers in the middle of cornfield was a challenge. But wait, it gets better - E911 came along and we had to get addresses for the tower - lol! On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: When I was a Qwest Install Manager, I had a folder that I called, Never Gonna Happen. Mostly very rural areas with zero facilities yet the sales department were very optimistic. The best one that comes to mind was a company called Austin Powder. They make explosives so they tend to locate their facilities WAY out in the middle of nowhere. A T-1 out in the desert, 50 miles from any phone line? SURE! Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 6:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3? In my previous life as an ATT Cellular switch manager, we had hundreds of T1's T3's ordered that never came in - yes, I mean never. And we practically had a blank check! -RickG On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmann kh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones closest to our network, made an agreement with a tenant nearby, and did a wireless PtP to connect it to our network. Moral of the story, we were shooting in the dark until we had an in in the right department at ATT. On a related note, does anyone have an experience with Charter's fiber services? -- Kristian Hoffmann System Administrator kh...@fire2wire.com http://www.fire2wire.com Office - 209-543-1800 | Fax - 209-545-1469 | Toll Free - 800-905-FIRE On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 22:33 -0500, Roger Howard wrote: Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3 and upgrade my bandwidth. Not so. Just because you can get a T1 doesn't mean you can get a T3 without huge buildout costs. I was quoted $400,000 dollars to upgrade to a T3. I managed to get around it because otherwise ATT would have had to install a high count copper line down my road to be able to keep offering POTS service here, so I got lucky, and had a free install. But you may not be that fortunate. I just thought if I posted this, it might give some people a heads up to start planning for more bandwidth when you're coming close to needing t3 type capacity. Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
Cornfield 3, Grain street, Rural USA comes to mind. Richard WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
Hehe! Thats what I said! On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 1:12 PM, richard sterne wireless.r...@gmail.com wrote: Cornfield 3, Grain street, Rural USA comes to mind. Richard WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
I kid you not... I have a 40 foot telephone pole solar site in a bean field that I had to get an address for in order to get access. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 1:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3? LOL! Ya, we had some overly optimistic carriers alright. Trying to get T1's at cell towers in the middle of cornfield was a challenge. But wait, it gets better - E911 came along and we had to get addresses for the tower - lol! On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: When I was a Qwest Install Manager, I had a folder that I called, Never Gonna Happen. Mostly very rural areas with zero facilities yet the sales department were very optimistic. The best one that comes to mind was a company called Austin Powder. They make explosives so they tend to locate their facilities WAY out in the middle of nowhere. A T-1 out in the desert, 50 miles from any phone line? SURE! Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 6:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3? In my previous life as an ATT Cellular switch manager, we had hundreds of T1's T3's ordered that never came in - yes, I mean never. And we practically had a blank check! -RickG On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmann kh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones closest to our network, made an agreement with a tenant nearby, and did a wireless PtP to connect it to our network. Moral of the story, we were shooting in the dark until we had an in in the right department at ATT. On a related note, does anyone have an experience with Charter's fiber services? -- Kristian Hoffmann System Administrator kh...@fire2wire.com http://www.fire2wire.com Office - 209-543-1800 | Fax - 209-545-1469 | Toll Free - 800-905-FIRE On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 22:33 -0500, Roger Howard wrote: Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3 and upgrade my bandwidth. Not so. Just because you can get a T1 doesn't mean you can get a T3 without huge buildout costs. I was quoted $400,000 dollars to upgrade to a T3. I managed to get around it because otherwise ATT would have had to install a high count copper line down my road to be able to keep offering POTS service here, so I got lucky, and had a free install. But you may not be that fortunate. I just thought if I posted this, it might give some people a heads up to start planning for more bandwidth when you're coming close to needing t3 type capacity. Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
I do. ;-) The difference, however, is that our livelihoods are telecommunications and far too often people don't know what's around them. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/20/2010 11:24 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: Well .. it is like plumbing How many of us know the Plumbing and Drainage infrastructure in our areas ? (Myself very little, cause I don't have to deal with it... :) ) Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 7/20/2010 11:57 PM, RickG wrote: It amazes me how little people know about telecommunications infrastructure - or lack thereof. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Mike Hammettwispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: Agreed. It amazes me how little people know about the telecommunications infrastructure in their area. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/20/2010 5:57 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: I have been quietly watching this discussion I don't claim to be an expert, but being a wire line ISP, let me add / clarify some thoughts / facts T1 / T3 or DS3 / OC3 are all TDM / Legacy services T1, can be extended (long distance) via field repeaters... (T1's are based on HDSL technology and go about 12000ft from the CO or Repeater.) T3/DS3 are peeled off OC3 or Sonet (optical) MuxesThese are larger expensive pieces of equipment that require a lot of power and are fiber fed. While all of the legacy TDM services are regulated (i.e the price is disclosed on a tariff) but the ILEC is allowed to recover build out costs... these costs are high, in addition, the ILEC's are also aware that these High Cap transports are used by other Competitors and as such exercise full discretion on discouraging purchase of these circuits, by using extra inflated build out costs, and if you agree to pay that, then the 2nd option they use is extra extra long build out time schedule... 9 to 12 months easy. For Enterprise customers, they will do the build at no cost or little cost, but the Enterprise customer also has to provide them with space and power, typically 2-3 racks of space and 20-40 amps of power. Today, the ILEC's are not interested in doing such buildout, unless someone is buying SONET transport from them or a bundle of multiple DS3's / OC'3 combination, and there are a few more if's... The most cost effective form of transport that an ISP / WISP can purchase from a Carrier (ILEC or Cable Co or another type of provider) would be Ethernet .. 100Meg or Gig E While these are un-regulated services, which means an ILEC's can exercise their discretion on providing this type of service to you and I or another Carrier however in many places (typically office buildings in a metro downtown area) would have equipment / fiber already installed that they can deliver the service at that location. These days the local Cable Company who has been doing fiber build outs for their cable plants is also pretty eager to sell IP Transit or Ethernet Transport over the Fiber system.. Most of them are working on a pretty fair means of pricing the fiber service and will not discriminate against service providers... (most of them...) Another often overlooked fiber carrier is the local Power Company. Most power companies have a Fiber / Network Division they have been the largest providers of dark fiber for a lot of carriers (including cell carriers, when they cell carriers were not owned by the ILEC and the ILEC would not provide them high speed pipes to the cell towers..). But these folks are normally harder to track down unless they are aggressively selling services... I often collect Network Maps from carriers and competitive service providers, just to be able to find out what are On-Net locations for them... make life much easier in determining where to pickup the service from rather than having them do the buildout and bring them to where you are Hope this helps. Regards Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 7/20/2010 6:19 PM, RickG wrote: In my previous life as an ATT Cellular switch manager, we had hundreds of T1's T3's ordered that never came in - yes, I mean never. And we practically had a blank check! -RickG On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmannkh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
The most cost effective form of transport that an ISP / WISP can purchase from a Carrier (ILEC or Cable Co or another type of provider) would be Ethernet .. 100Meg or Gig E While these are un-regulated services, which means an ILEC's can exercise their discretion on providing this type of service to you and I or another Carrier however in many places I have begged ATT for an ethernet option but they keep saying its not available and no ETA. Last time I asked was about 6 months ago though. I think in rural areas where you have no other options they know it. At least it seems like it. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
Talk with your power coop to see if there is fiber in the area. Talk with your chamber, city council, whatever to find out if there is anything in the area (or close to the area) for fiber. We are very rural but are also able to get fiber backhaul to some major metros. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 9:29 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3? The most cost effective form of transport that an ISP / WISP can purchase from a Carrier (ILEC or Cable Co or another type of provider) would be Ethernet .. 100Meg or Gig E While these are un-regulated services, which means an ILEC's can exercise their discretion on providing this type of service to you and I or another Carrier however in many places I have begged ATT for an ethernet option but they keep saying its not available and no ETA. Last time I asked was about 6 months ago though. I think in rural areas where you have no other options they know it. At least it seems like it. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
Very true. I'll add that my story is 4 years old, and the T3s mentioned have already or are being switched to Ethernet services. Didn't help that it took 9 months to finally get a hold of a Charter wholesale/ISP rep. :-| It also took us 6-7 months from yes send me the contract to turn-up with our ATT Ethernet circuit, even though there was active ATT fiber at our POP. -Kristian On Tue, 2010-07-20 at 18:57 -0400, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: I have been quietly watching this discussion I don't claim to be an expert, but being a wire line ISP, let me add / clarify some thoughts / facts T1 / T3 or DS3 / OC3 are all TDM / Legacy services T1, can be extended (long distance) via field repeaters... (T1's are based on HDSL technology and go about 12000ft from the CO or Repeater.) T3/DS3 are peeled off OC3 or Sonet (optical) MuxesThese are larger expensive pieces of equipment that require a lot of power and are fiber fed. While all of the legacy TDM services are regulated (i.e the price is disclosed on a tariff) but the ILEC is allowed to recover build out costs... these costs are high, in addition, the ILEC's are also aware that these High Cap transports are used by other Competitors and as such exercise full discretion on discouraging purchase of these circuits, by using extra inflated build out costs, and if you agree to pay that, then the 2nd option they use is extra extra long build out time schedule... 9 to 12 months easy. For Enterprise customers, they will do the build at no cost or little cost, but the Enterprise customer also has to provide them with space and power, typically 2-3 racks of space and 20-40 amps of power. Today, the ILEC's are not interested in doing such buildout, unless someone is buying SONET transport from them or a bundle of multiple DS3's / OC'3 combination, and there are a few more if's... The most cost effective form of transport that an ISP / WISP can purchase from a Carrier (ILEC or Cable Co or another type of provider) would be Ethernet .. 100Meg or Gig E While these are un-regulated services, which means an ILEC's can exercise their discretion on providing this type of service to you and I or another Carrier however in many places (typically office buildings in a metro downtown area) would have equipment / fiber already installed that they can deliver the service at that location. These days the local Cable Company who has been doing fiber build outs for their cable plants is also pretty eager to sell IP Transit or Ethernet Transport over the Fiber system.. Most of them are working on a pretty fair means of pricing the fiber service and will not discriminate against service providers... (most of them...) Another often overlooked fiber carrier is the local Power Company. Most power companies have a Fiber / Network Division they have been the largest providers of dark fiber for a lot of carriers (including cell carriers, when they cell carriers were not owned by the ILEC and the ILEC would not provide them high speed pipes to the cell towers..). But these folks are normally harder to track down unless they are aggressively selling services... I often collect Network Maps from carriers and competitive service providers, just to be able to find out what are On-Net locations for them... make life much easier in determining where to pickup the service from rather than having them do the buildout and bring them to where you are Hope this helps. Regards Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 7/20/2010 6:19 PM, RickG wrote: In my previous life as an ATT Cellular switch manager, we had hundreds of T1's T3's ordered that never came in - yes, I mean never. And we practically had a blank check! -RickG On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmannkh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones closest to our network, made an agreement with a tenant nearby, and did a wireless PtP to connect it to our network. Moral of the story, we were shooting in the dark until we had an in in the right department at ATT. On a related note, does anyone have an experience with Charter's fiber services? -- Kristian Hoffmann System Administrator kh...@fire2wire.com http://www.fire2wire.com Office - 209-543-1800 | Fax - 209-545-1469 | Toll Free - 800-905-FIRE On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 22:33 -0500, Roger Howard wrote: Quick alert to those
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
I've tried. Oh boy, have I tried! I look at every little telco farm along the road, cruise the railroad crossings looking for fiber, visit the county engineers office asking for maps of underground lines. Call the local telco/cable office, beat up the Time Warner guy or gal for info.. It's all one big ol' secret. OH! One county that I'm in, they have a guy whose only job is to HELP provide info for the betterment of business and to help the rural folk. His answer when I ask if he can find out fiber locations... His answer Wow, great idea! But... I dunno. End of conversation. Sucks. Me- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 10:48 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3? Agreed. It amazes me how little people know about the telecommunications infrastructure in their area. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/20/2010 5:57 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: I have been quietly watching this discussion I don't claim to be an expert, but being a wire line ISP, let me add / clarify some thoughts / facts T1 / T3 or DS3 / OC3 are all TDM / Legacy services T1, can be extended (long distance) via field repeaters... (T1's are based on HDSL technology and go about 12000ft from the CO or Repeater.) T3/DS3 are peeled off OC3 or Sonet (optical) MuxesThese are larger expensive pieces of equipment that require a lot of power and are fiber fed. While all of the legacy TDM services are regulated (i.e the price is disclosed on a tariff) but the ILEC is allowed to recover build out costs... these costs are high, in addition, the ILEC's are also aware that these High Cap transports are used by other Competitors and as such exercise full discretion on discouraging purchase of these circuits, by using extra inflated build out costs, and if you agree to pay that, then the 2nd option they use is extra extra long build out time schedule... 9 to 12 months easy. For Enterprise customers, they will do the build at no cost or little cost, but the Enterprise customer also has to provide them with space and power, typically 2-3 racks of space and 20-40 amps of power. Today, the ILEC's are not interested in doing such buildout, unless someone is buying SONET transport from them or a bundle of multiple DS3's / OC'3 combination, and there are a few more if's... The most cost effective form of transport that an ISP / WISP can purchase from a Carrier (ILEC or Cable Co or another type of provider) would be Ethernet .. 100Meg or Gig E While these are un-regulated services, which means an ILEC's can exercise their discretion on providing this type of service to you and I or another Carrier however in many places (typically office buildings in a metro downtown area) would have equipment / fiber already installed that they can deliver the service at that location. These days the local Cable Company who has been doing fiber build outs for their cable plants is also pretty eager to sell IP Transit or Ethernet Transport over the Fiber system.. Most of them are working on a pretty fair means of pricing the fiber service and will not discriminate against service providers... (most of them...) Another often overlooked fiber carrier is the local Power Company. Most power companies have a Fiber / Network Division they have been the largest providers of dark fiber for a lot of carriers (including cell carriers, when they cell carriers were not owned by the ILEC and the ILEC would not provide them high speed pipes to the cell towers..). But these folks are normally harder to track down unless they are aggressively selling services... I often collect Network Maps from carriers and competitive service providers, just to be able to find out what are On-Net locations for them... make life much easier in determining where to pickup the service from rather than having them do the buildout and bring them to where you are Hope this helps. Regards Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 7/20/2010 6:19 PM, RickG wrote: In my previous life as an ATT Cellular switch manager, we had hundreds of T1's T3's ordered that never came in - yes, I mean never. And we practically had a blank check! -RickG On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmannkh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones closest to our network, made an agreement with a tenant nearby, and did a wireless PtP to connect it to our network. Moral of the story, we were shooting in the dark until we had an in in the right department at ATT. On a related note, does anyone have an experience with Charter's fiber services? -- Kristian Hoffmann System Administrator kh...@fire2wire.com http://www.fire2wire.com Office - 209-543-1800 | Fax - 209-545-1469 | Toll Free - 800-905-FIRE On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 22:33 -0500, Roger Howard wrote: Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3 and upgrade my bandwidth. Not so. Just because you can get a T1 doesn't mean you can get a T3 without huge buildout costs. I was quoted $400,000 dollars to upgrade to a T3. I managed to get around it because otherwise ATT would have had to install a high count copper line down my road to be able to keep offering POTS service here, so I got lucky, and had a free install. But you may not be that fortunate. I just thought if I posted this, it might give some people a heads up to start planning for more bandwidth when you're coming close to needing t3 type capacity. Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
We used Charter fiber for PTP and Internet Access for a few years, a few years ago. It was OK. Way more outages than the SBC DS3 that we had at the time. (a few hours of planned or unplanned downtime in the middle of the night every month) Pricing was far better than SBC. We dropped them once we built out PTP links to a datacenter with less expensive bandwidth. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmann kh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones closest to our network, made an agreement with a tenant nearby, and did a wireless PtP to connect it to our network. Moral of the story, we were shooting in the dark until we had an in in the right department at ATT. On a related note, does anyone have an experience with Charter's fiber services? -- Kristian Hoffmann System Administrator kh...@fire2wire.com http://www.fire2wire.com Office - 209-543-1800 | Fax - 209-545-1469 | Toll Free - 800-905-FIRE On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 22:33 -0500, Roger Howard wrote: Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3 and upgrade my bandwidth. Not so. Just because you can get a T1 doesn't mean you can get a T3 without huge buildout costs. I was quoted $400,000 dollars to upgrade to a T3. I managed to get around it because otherwise ATT would have had to install a high count copper line down my road to be able to keep offering POTS service here, so I got lucky, and had a free install. But you may not be that fortunate. I just thought if I posted this, it might give some people a heads up to start planning for more bandwidth when you're coming close to needing t3 type capacity. Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
Very good experience with them here. Best pricing available out in the boondocks of MN. They own the tower where the fiber pop is, so or PtP link on that side is no rent. They do average a short outage every 6 weeks or so for upgrades and such, but the last notice I got was for BGP tables so looks like they finally are installing a ring at this location. My only grip with them is their peering with XO and XO's router has a tendency to start flapping. Anthony Will Broadband Corp Jon Auer wrote: We used Charter fiber for PTP and Internet Access for a few years, a few years ago. It was OK. Way more outages than the SBC DS3 that we had at the time. (a few hours of planned or unplanned downtime in the middle of the night every month) Pricing was far better than SBC. We dropped them once we built out PTP links to a datacenter with less expensive bandwidth. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmann kh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones closest to our network, made an agreement with a tenant nearby, and did a wireless PtP to connect it to our network. Moral of the story, we were shooting in the dark until we had an in in the right department at ATT. On a related note, does anyone have an experience with Charter's fiber services? -- Kristian Hoffmann System Administrator kh...@fire2wire.com http://www.fire2wire.com Office - 209-543-1800 | Fax - 209-545-1469 | Toll Free - 800-905-FIRE On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 22:33 -0500, Roger Howard wrote: Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3 and upgrade my bandwidth. Not so. Just because you can get a T1 doesn't mean you can get a T3 without huge buildout costs. I was quoted $400,000 dollars to upgrade to a T3. I managed to get around it because otherwise ATT would have had to install a high count copper line down my road to be able to keep offering POTS service here, so I got lucky, and had a free install. But you may not be that fortunate. I just thought if I posted this, it might give some people a heads up to start planning for more bandwidth when you're coming close to needing t3 type capacity. Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3 and upgrade my bandwidth. Not so. Just because you can get a T1 doesn't mean you can get a T3 without huge buildout costs. I was quoted $400,000 dollars to upgrade to a T3. I managed to get around it because otherwise ATT would have had to install a high count copper line down my road to be able to keep offering POTS service here, so I got lucky, and had a free install. But you may not be that fortunate. I just thought if I posted this, it might give some people a heads up to start planning for more bandwidth when you're coming close to needing t3 type capacity. What are you paying for your DS3? We are nearing the point of moving to OC3's at both locations and the loops are outrageous. This is on ATT as well. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
100meg metro e is running 3000.00 here. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Matt lm7...@gmail.com wrote: Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3 and upgrade my bandwidth. Not so. Just because you can get a T1 doesn't mean you can get a T3 without huge buildout costs. I was quoted $400,000 dollars to upgrade to a T3. I managed to get around it because otherwise ATT would have had to install a high count copper line down my road to be able to keep offering POTS service here, so I got lucky, and had a free install. But you may not be that fortunate. I just thought if I posted this, it might give some people a heads up to start planning for more bandwidth when you're coming close to needing t3 type capacity. What are you paying for your DS3? We are nearing the point of moving to OC3's at both locations and the loops are outrageous. This is on ATT as well. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jeremie Chism TritonDataLink WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
100meg metro e is running 3000.00 here. What are you paying for your DS3? We are nearing the point of moving to OC3's at both locations and the loops are outrageous. This is on ATT as well. 100meg metro e is running 3000.00 here. Ugh, right now paying quite a bit more for 45mbps DS3. Location, location and location. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
Wish I could get that here...100Mbps where I'm at is closer to $8000. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeremie Chism Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3? 100meg metro e is running 3000.00 here. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Matt lm7...@gmail.com wrote: Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3 and upgrade my bandwidth. Not so. Just because you can get a T1 doesn't mean you can get a T3 without huge buildout costs. I was quoted $400,000 dollars to upgrade to a T3. I managed to get around it because otherwise ATT would have had to install a high count copper line down my road to be able to keep offering POTS service here, so I got lucky, and had a free install. But you may not be that fortunate. I just thought if I posted this, it might give some people a heads up to start planning for more bandwidth when you're coming close to needing t3 type capacity. What are you paying for your DS3? We are nearing the point of moving to OC3's at both locations and the loops are outrageous. This is on ATT as well. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jeremie Chism TritonDataLink WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
In my previous life as an ATT Cellular switch manager, we had hundreds of T1's T3's ordered that never came in - yes, I mean never. And we practically had a blank check! -RickG On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmann kh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones closest to our network, made an agreement with a tenant nearby, and did a wireless PtP to connect it to our network. Moral of the story, we were shooting in the dark until we had an in in the right department at ATT. On a related note, does anyone have an experience with Charter's fiber services? -- Kristian Hoffmann System Administrator kh...@fire2wire.com http://www.fire2wire.com Office - 209-543-1800 | Fax - 209-545-1469 | Toll Free - 800-905-FIRE On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 22:33 -0500, Roger Howard wrote: Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3 and upgrade my bandwidth. Not so. Just because you can get a T1 doesn't mean you can get a T3 without huge buildout costs. I was quoted $400,000 dollars to upgrade to a T3. I managed to get around it because otherwise ATT would have had to install a high count copper line down my road to be able to keep offering POTS service here, so I got lucky, and had a free install. But you may not be that fortunate. I just thought if I posted this, it might give some people a heads up to start planning for more bandwidth when you're coming close to needing t3 type capacity. Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
I have been quietly watching this discussion I don't claim to be an expert, but being a wire line ISP, let me add / clarify some thoughts / facts T1 / T3 or DS3 / OC3 are all TDM / Legacy services T1, can be extended (long distance) via field repeaters... (T1's are based on HDSL technology and go about 12000ft from the CO or Repeater.) T3/DS3 are peeled off OC3 or Sonet (optical) MuxesThese are larger expensive pieces of equipment that require a lot of power and are fiber fed. While all of the legacy TDM services are regulated (i.e the price is disclosed on a tariff) but the ILEC is allowed to recover build out costs... these costs are high, in addition, the ILEC's are also aware that these High Cap transports are used by other Competitors and as such exercise full discretion on discouraging purchase of these circuits, by using extra inflated build out costs, and if you agree to pay that, then the 2nd option they use is extra extra long build out time schedule... 9 to 12 months easy. For Enterprise customers, they will do the build at no cost or little cost, but the Enterprise customer also has to provide them with space and power, typically 2-3 racks of space and 20-40 amps of power. Today, the ILEC's are not interested in doing such buildout, unless someone is buying SONET transport from them or a bundle of multiple DS3's / OC'3 combination, and there are a few more if's... The most cost effective form of transport that an ISP / WISP can purchase from a Carrier (ILEC or Cable Co or another type of provider) would be Ethernet .. 100Meg or Gig E While these are un-regulated services, which means an ILEC's can exercise their discretion on providing this type of service to you and I or another Carrier however in many places (typically office buildings in a metro downtown area) would have equipment / fiber already installed that they can deliver the service at that location. These days the local Cable Company who has been doing fiber build outs for their cable plants is also pretty eager to sell IP Transit or Ethernet Transport over the Fiber system.. Most of them are working on a pretty fair means of pricing the fiber service and will not discriminate against service providers... (most of them...) Another often overlooked fiber carrier is the local Power Company. Most power companies have a Fiber / Network Division they have been the largest providers of dark fiber for a lot of carriers (including cell carriers, when they cell carriers were not owned by the ILEC and the ILEC would not provide them high speed pipes to the cell towers..). But these folks are normally harder to track down unless they are aggressively selling services... I often collect Network Maps from carriers and competitive service providers, just to be able to find out what are On-Net locations for them... make life much easier in determining where to pickup the service from rather than having them do the buildout and bring them to where you are Hope this helps. Regards Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 7/20/2010 6:19 PM, RickG wrote: In my previous life as an ATT Cellular switch manager, we had hundreds of T1's T3's ordered that never came in - yes, I mean never. And we practically had a blank check! -RickG On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmannkh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones closest to our network, made an agreement with a tenant nearby, and did a wireless PtP to connect it to our network. Moral of the story, we were shooting in the dark until we had an in in the right department at ATT. On a related note, does anyone have an experience with Charter's fiber services? -- Kristian Hoffmann System Administrator kh...@fire2wire.com http://www.fire2wire.com Office - 209-543-1800 | Fax - 209-545-1469 | Toll Free - 800-905-FIRE On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 22:33 -0500, Roger Howard wrote: Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3 and upgrade my bandwidth. Not so. Just because you can get a T1 doesn't mean you can get a T3 without huge buildout costs. I was quoted $400,000 dollars to upgrade to a T3. I managed to get around it because otherwise ATT would have had to install a high count copper line down my road to be able to keep offering POTS service here, so I got lucky, and had a free install. But you may not be that fortunate. I just
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
At 7/20/2010 06:57 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: I have been quietly watching this discussion I don't claim to be an expert, but being a wire line ISP, let me add / clarify some thoughts / facts T1 / T3 or DS3 / OC3 are all TDM / Legacy services That really shouldn't matter. The price of the equipment needed to generate those services, other than the outside plant cable (glass or copper), has plummeted in recent years. Even OC-48 gear now costs approximately bo diddley. Hence the recurring price for a local, in-city SONET circuit from a Bell is typically about the same as their total capital cost, paid every month or two. The installation cost of the circuit is added to the NRC or TLA so they can't lose. Nice work if you can get it, being an unregulated monopoly in a vital field. T1, can be extended (long distance) via field repeaters... (T1's are based on HDSL technology and go about 12000ft from the CO or Repeater.) T3/DS3 are peeled off OC3 or Sonet (optical) MuxesThese are larger expensive pieces of equipment that require a lot of power and are fiber fed. The stuff they pulled in the '90s was relatively expensive. Nowadays you can get an OC-3 or OC-12 Adtran or Fujitsu fiber MSPP (line terminal, mux, DACS) for around $10k, depending on the line card count, and it eats one or two amps. Cheap optics can go about 50 miles without amplification. However, the prices Bells charge for Special Access (regulated DS1, DS3) fall into one of two categories. In most metro areas, they are unregulated; the Bell can create its own price list. (SBC/ATT had a 3-year merger condition to lower rates a smidgen; that just expired and most rates have skyrocketed.) In other areas, they're price capped, where the caps are based on 1992's tariffs. Those pre-Internet rates were set when 56 kbps was considered a lightning-fast backbone data circuit. The price per DS0 was supposed to recover the lost toll revenues of leased voice tie lines. It's not based on cost. Did I mention that being a monopoly can be nice work if you can get it? While all of the legacy TDM services are regulated (i.e the price is disclosed on a tariff) but the ILEC is allowed to recover build out costs... these costs are high, in addition, the ILEC's are also aware that these High Cap transports are used by other Competitors and as such exercise full discretion on discouraging purchase of these circuits, by using extra inflated build out costs, and if you agree to pay that, then the 2nd option they use is extra extra long build out time schedule... 9 to 12 months easy. Yes, it's how ATT and VZ are putting the squeeze on Sprint, T-Mobile, and their other non-ILEC competitors while favoring their own wireless carriers. Dial tone is a shrinking business; Special Access is making up for it in spades, with typical rates of return over 100%. ... The most cost effective form of transport that an ISP / WISP can purchase from a Carrier (ILEC or Cable Co or another type of provider) would be Ethernet .. 100Meg or Gig E While these are un-regulated services, which means an ILEC's can exercise their discretion on providing this type of service to you and I or another Carrier however in many places (typically office buildings in a metro downtown area) would have equipment / fiber already installed that they can deliver the service at that location. In a major city, like say Miami, you can often get Carrier Ethernet from a non-ILEC, into major buildings. But even there, the price into other buildings is very high. Last year I asked Verizon for a quote within Boston. The on-net price, where VZB had its own fiber, was very reasonable. But to go across the street to an off-net building, VZB would have to hand off service to VZ Core, who would sell a Special Access DS3 to carry the 10Mbps Ethernet. That was several thousand dollars/month for a local loop. But the vast majority of WISPs are in rural areas, where there are no such choices. That's why Special Access reform is so important. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
To sum it up Location, location, location. :) Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Fred Goldstein Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 7:56 PM To: WISPA General List; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3? At 7/20/2010 06:57 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: I have been quietly watching this discussion I don't claim to be an expert, but being a wire line ISP, let me add / clarify some thoughts / facts T1 / T3 or DS3 / OC3 are all TDM / Legacy services That really shouldn't matter. The price of the equipment needed to generate those services, other than the outside plant cable (glass or copper), has plummeted in recent years. Even OC-48 gear now costs approximately bo diddley. Hence the recurring price for a local, in-city SONET circuit from a Bell is typically about the same as their total capital cost, paid every month or two. The installation cost of the circuit is added to the NRC or TLA so they can't lose. Nice work if you can get it, being an unregulated monopoly in a vital field. T1, can be extended (long distance) via field repeaters... (T1's are based on HDSL technology and go about 12000ft from the CO or Repeater.) T3/DS3 are peeled off OC3 or Sonet (optical) MuxesThese are larger expensive pieces of equipment that require a lot of power and are fiber fed. The stuff they pulled in the '90s was relatively expensive. Nowadays you can get an OC-3 or OC-12 Adtran or Fujitsu fiber MSPP (line terminal, mux, DACS) for around $10k, depending on the line card count, and it eats one or two amps. Cheap optics can go about 50 miles without amplification. However, the prices Bells charge for Special Access (regulated DS1, DS3) fall into one of two categories. In most metro areas, they are unregulated; the Bell can create its own price list. (SBC/ATT had a 3-year merger condition to lower rates a smidgen; that just expired and most rates have skyrocketed.) In other areas, they're price capped, where the caps are based on 1992's tariffs. Those pre-Internet rates were set when 56 kbps was considered a lightning-fast backbone data circuit. The price per DS0 was supposed to recover the lost toll revenues of leased voice tie lines. It's not based on cost. Did I mention that being a monopoly can be nice work if you can get it? While all of the legacy TDM services are regulated (i.e the price is disclosed on a tariff) but the ILEC is allowed to recover build out costs... these costs are high, in addition, the ILEC's are also aware that these High Cap transports are used by other Competitors and as such exercise full discretion on discouraging purchase of these circuits, by using extra inflated build out costs, and if you agree to pay that, then the 2nd option they use is extra extra long build out time schedule... 9 to 12 months easy. Yes, it's how ATT and VZ are putting the squeeze on Sprint, T-Mobile, and their other non-ILEC competitors while favoring their own wireless carriers. Dial tone is a shrinking business; Special Access is making up for it in spades, with typical rates of return over 100%. ... The most cost effective form of transport that an ISP / WISP can purchase from a Carrier (ILEC or Cable Co or another type of provider) would be Ethernet .. 100Meg or Gig E While these are un-regulated services, which means an ILEC's can exercise their discretion on providing this type of service to you and I or another Carrier however in many places (typically office buildings in a metro downtown area) would have equipment / fiber already installed that they can deliver the service at that location. In a major city, like say Miami, you can often get Carrier Ethernet from a non-ILEC, into major buildings. But even there, the price into other buildings is very high. Last year I asked Verizon for a quote within Boston. The on-net price, where VZB had its own fiber, was very reasonable. But to go across the street to an off-net building, VZB would have to hand off service to VZ Core, who would sell a Special Access DS3 to carry the 10Mbps Ethernet. That was several thousand dollars/month for a local loop. But the vast majority of WISPs are in rural areas, where there are no such choices. That's why Special Access reform is so important. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
Agreed. It amazes me how little people know about the telecommunications infrastructure in their area. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/20/2010 5:57 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: I have been quietly watching this discussion I don't claim to be an expert, but being a wire line ISP, let me add / clarify some thoughts / facts T1 / T3 or DS3 / OC3 are all TDM / Legacy services T1, can be extended (long distance) via field repeaters... (T1's are based on HDSL technology and go about 12000ft from the CO or Repeater.) T3/DS3 are peeled off OC3 or Sonet (optical) MuxesThese are larger expensive pieces of equipment that require a lot of power and are fiber fed. While all of the legacy TDM services are regulated (i.e the price is disclosed on a tariff) but the ILEC is allowed to recover build out costs... these costs are high, in addition, the ILEC's are also aware that these High Cap transports are used by other Competitors and as such exercise full discretion on discouraging purchase of these circuits, by using extra inflated build out costs, and if you agree to pay that, then the 2nd option they use is extra extra long build out time schedule... 9 to 12 months easy. For Enterprise customers, they will do the build at no cost or little cost, but the Enterprise customer also has to provide them with space and power, typically 2-3 racks of space and 20-40 amps of power. Today, the ILEC's are not interested in doing such buildout, unless someone is buying SONET transport from them or a bundle of multiple DS3's / OC'3 combination, and there are a few more if's... The most cost effective form of transport that an ISP / WISP can purchase from a Carrier (ILEC or Cable Co or another type of provider) would be Ethernet .. 100Meg or Gig E While these are un-regulated services, which means an ILEC's can exercise their discretion on providing this type of service to you and I or another Carrier however in many places (typically office buildings in a metro downtown area) would have equipment / fiber already installed that they can deliver the service at that location. These days the local Cable Company who has been doing fiber build outs for their cable plants is also pretty eager to sell IP Transit or Ethernet Transport over the Fiber system.. Most of them are working on a pretty fair means of pricing the fiber service and will not discriminate against service providers... (most of them...) Another often overlooked fiber carrier is the local Power Company. Most power companies have a Fiber / Network Division they have been the largest providers of dark fiber for a lot of carriers (including cell carriers, when they cell carriers were not owned by the ILEC and the ILEC would not provide them high speed pipes to the cell towers..). But these folks are normally harder to track down unless they are aggressively selling services... I often collect Network Maps from carriers and competitive service providers, just to be able to find out what are On-Net locations for them... make life much easier in determining where to pickup the service from rather than having them do the buildout and bring them to where you are Hope this helps. Regards Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 7/20/2010 6:19 PM, RickG wrote: In my previous life as an ATT Cellular switch manager, we had hundreds of T1's T3's ordered that never came in - yes, I mean never. And we practically had a blank check! -RickG On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmannkh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones closest to our network, made an agreement with a tenant nearby, and did a wireless PtP to connect it to our network. Moral of the story, we were shooting in the dark until we had an in in the right department at ATT. On a related note, does anyone have an experience with Charter's fiber services? -- Kristian Hoffmann System Administrator kh...@fire2wire.com http://www.fire2wire.com Office - 209-543-1800 | Fax - 209-545-1469 | Toll Free - 800-905-FIRE On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 22:33 -0500, Roger Howard wrote: Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3 and upgrade my bandwidth. Not so. Just because you can get a T1 doesn't mean you can get a T3 without huge buildout costs. I was quoted $400,000 dollars to upgrade to a T3. I
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
It amazes me how little people know about telecommunications infrastructure - or lack thereof. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: Agreed. It amazes me how little people know about the telecommunications infrastructure in their area. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/20/2010 5:57 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: I have been quietly watching this discussion I don't claim to be an expert, but being a wire line ISP, let me add / clarify some thoughts / facts T1 / T3 or DS3 / OC3 are all TDM / Legacy services T1, can be extended (long distance) via field repeaters... (T1's are based on HDSL technology and go about 12000ft from the CO or Repeater.) T3/DS3 are peeled off OC3 or Sonet (optical) MuxesThese are larger expensive pieces of equipment that require a lot of power and are fiber fed. While all of the legacy TDM services are regulated (i.e the price is disclosed on a tariff) but the ILEC is allowed to recover build out costs... these costs are high, in addition, the ILEC's are also aware that these High Cap transports are used by other Competitors and as such exercise full discretion on discouraging purchase of these circuits, by using extra inflated build out costs, and if you agree to pay that, then the 2nd option they use is extra extra long build out time schedule... 9 to 12 months easy. For Enterprise customers, they will do the build at no cost or little cost, but the Enterprise customer also has to provide them with space and power, typically 2-3 racks of space and 20-40 amps of power. Today, the ILEC's are not interested in doing such buildout, unless someone is buying SONET transport from them or a bundle of multiple DS3's / OC'3 combination, and there are a few more if's... The most cost effective form of transport that an ISP / WISP can purchase from a Carrier (ILEC or Cable Co or another type of provider) would be Ethernet .. 100Meg or Gig E While these are un-regulated services, which means an ILEC's can exercise their discretion on providing this type of service to you and I or another Carrier however in many places (typically office buildings in a metro downtown area) would have equipment / fiber already installed that they can deliver the service at that location. These days the local Cable Company who has been doing fiber build outs for their cable plants is also pretty eager to sell IP Transit or Ethernet Transport over the Fiber system.. Most of them are working on a pretty fair means of pricing the fiber service and will not discriminate against service providers... (most of them...) Another often overlooked fiber carrier is the local Power Company. Most power companies have a Fiber / Network Division they have been the largest providers of dark fiber for a lot of carriers (including cell carriers, when they cell carriers were not owned by the ILEC and the ILEC would not provide them high speed pipes to the cell towers..). But these folks are normally harder to track down unless they are aggressively selling services... I often collect Network Maps from carriers and competitive service providers, just to be able to find out what are On-Net locations for them... make life much easier in determining where to pickup the service from rather than having them do the buildout and bring them to where you are Hope this helps. Regards Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 7/20/2010 6:19 PM, RickG wrote: In my previous life as an ATT Cellular switch manager, we had hundreds of T1's T3's ordered that never came in - yes, I mean never. And we practically had a blank check! -RickG On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmannkh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones closest to our network, made an agreement with a tenant nearby, and did a wireless PtP to connect it to our network. Moral of the story, we were shooting in the dark until we had an in in the right department at ATT. On a related note, does anyone have an experience with Charter's fiber services? -- Kristian Hoffmann System Administrator kh...@fire2wire.com http://www.fire2wire.com Office - 209-543-1800 | Fax - 209-545-1469 | Toll Free - 800-905-FIRE On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 22:33 -0500, Roger Howard wrote: Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
Well .. it is like plumbing How many of us know the Plumbing and Drainage infrastructure in our areas ? (Myself very little, cause I don't have to deal with it... :) ) Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 7/20/2010 11:57 PM, RickG wrote: It amazes me how little people know about telecommunications infrastructure - or lack thereof. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Mike Hammettwispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: Agreed. It amazes me how little people know about the telecommunications infrastructure in their area. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/20/2010 5:57 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: I have been quietly watching this discussion I don't claim to be an expert, but being a wire line ISP, let me add / clarify some thoughts / facts T1 / T3 or DS3 / OC3 are all TDM / Legacy services T1, can be extended (long distance) via field repeaters... (T1's are based on HDSL technology and go about 12000ft from the CO or Repeater.) T3/DS3 are peeled off OC3 or Sonet (optical) MuxesThese are larger expensive pieces of equipment that require a lot of power and are fiber fed. While all of the legacy TDM services are regulated (i.e the price is disclosed on a tariff) but the ILEC is allowed to recover build out costs... these costs are high, in addition, the ILEC's are also aware that these High Cap transports are used by other Competitors and as such exercise full discretion on discouraging purchase of these circuits, by using extra inflated build out costs, and if you agree to pay that, then the 2nd option they use is extra extra long build out time schedule... 9 to 12 months easy. For Enterprise customers, they will do the build at no cost or little cost, but the Enterprise customer also has to provide them with space and power, typically 2-3 racks of space and 20-40 amps of power. Today, the ILEC's are not interested in doing such buildout, unless someone is buying SONET transport from them or a bundle of multiple DS3's / OC'3 combination, and there are a few more if's... The most cost effective form of transport that an ISP / WISP can purchase from a Carrier (ILEC or Cable Co or another type of provider) would be Ethernet .. 100Meg or Gig E While these are un-regulated services, which means an ILEC's can exercise their discretion on providing this type of service to you and I or another Carrier however in many places (typically office buildings in a metro downtown area) would have equipment / fiber already installed that they can deliver the service at that location. These days the local Cable Company who has been doing fiber build outs for their cable plants is also pretty eager to sell IP Transit or Ethernet Transport over the Fiber system.. Most of them are working on a pretty fair means of pricing the fiber service and will not discriminate against service providers... (most of them...) Another often overlooked fiber carrier is the local Power Company. Most power companies have a Fiber / Network Division they have been the largest providers of dark fiber for a lot of carriers (including cell carriers, when they cell carriers were not owned by the ILEC and the ILEC would not provide them high speed pipes to the cell towers..). But these folks are normally harder to track down unless they are aggressively selling services... I often collect Network Maps from carriers and competitive service providers, just to be able to find out what are On-Net locations for them... make life much easier in determining where to pickup the service from rather than having them do the buildout and bring them to where you are Hope this helps. Regards Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 7/20/2010 6:19 PM, RickG wrote: In my previous life as an ATT Cellular switch manager, we had hundreds of T1's T3's ordered that never came in - yes, I mean never. And we practically had a blank check! -RickG On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmannkh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones closest to our network, made an agreement with a tenant nearby, and did a wireless PtP to connect it to our network. Moral of the story, we were shooting in the dark until we had an in in the right department at ATT. On a related note, does anyone
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
But, if you're a plumber!?!? Now, to be fair, I've never claimed to be an expert nor expect to ever do so. Then again, not too many expert plumbers either :) Now, back to the outage list! -RickG On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Faisal Imtiaz fai...@snappydsl.net wrote: Well .. it is like plumbing How many of us know the Plumbing and Drainage infrastructure in our areas ? (Myself very little, cause I don't have to deal with it... :) ) Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 7/20/2010 11:57 PM, RickG wrote: It amazes me how little people know about telecommunications infrastructure - or lack thereof. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Mike Hammettwispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: Agreed. It amazes me how little people know about the telecommunications infrastructure in their area. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/20/2010 5:57 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: I have been quietly watching this discussion I don't claim to be an expert, but being a wire line ISP, let me add / clarify some thoughts / facts T1 / T3 or DS3 / OC3 are all TDM / Legacy services T1, can be extended (long distance) via field repeaters... (T1's are based on HDSL technology and go about 12000ft from the CO or Repeater.) T3/DS3 are peeled off OC3 or Sonet (optical) MuxesThese are larger expensive pieces of equipment that require a lot of power and are fiber fed. While all of the legacy TDM services are regulated (i.e the price is disclosed on a tariff) but the ILEC is allowed to recover build out costs... these costs are high, in addition, the ILEC's are also aware that these High Cap transports are used by other Competitors and as such exercise full discretion on discouraging purchase of these circuits, by using extra inflated build out costs, and if you agree to pay that, then the 2nd option they use is extra extra long build out time schedule... 9 to 12 months easy. For Enterprise customers, they will do the build at no cost or little cost, but the Enterprise customer also has to provide them with space and power, typically 2-3 racks of space and 20-40 amps of power. Today, the ILEC's are not interested in doing such buildout, unless someone is buying SONET transport from them or a bundle of multiple DS3's / OC'3 combination, and there are a few more if's... The most cost effective form of transport that an ISP / WISP can purchase from a Carrier (ILEC or Cable Co or another type of provider) would be Ethernet .. 100Meg or Gig E While these are un-regulated services, which means an ILEC's can exercise their discretion on providing this type of service to you and I or another Carrier however in many places (typically office buildings in a metro downtown area) would have equipment / fiber already installed that they can deliver the service at that location. These days the local Cable Company who has been doing fiber build outs for their cable plants is also pretty eager to sell IP Transit or Ethernet Transport over the Fiber system.. Most of them are working on a pretty fair means of pricing the fiber service and will not discriminate against service providers... (most of them...) Another often overlooked fiber carrier is the local Power Company. Most power companies have a Fiber / Network Division they have been the largest providers of dark fiber for a lot of carriers (including cell carriers, when they cell carriers were not owned by the ILEC and the ILEC would not provide them high speed pipes to the cell towers..). But these folks are normally harder to track down unless they are aggressively selling services... I often collect Network Maps from carriers and competitive service providers, just to be able to find out what are On-Net locations for them... make life much easier in determining where to pickup the service from rather than having them do the buildout and bring them to where you are Hope this helps. Regards Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 7/20/2010 6:19 PM, RickG wrote: In my previous life as an ATT Cellular switch manager, we had hundreds of T1's T3's ordered that never came in - yes, I mean never. And we practically had a blank check! -RickG On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kristian Hoffmannkh...@fire2wire.com wrote: After about a year of getting the same response from ATT after multiple order requests at different locations across our network, the guy in charge of building out fiber for the region called and said what in the world are you guys doing?!? He ended up giving us the location of a few fiber terminals in the area. We found the ones
Re: [WISPA] What if you can't get a T3?
I am paying close to $1200/mth here for 6 Mbit on metro-e. Located at middle TN/KY border. Scott 100meg metro e is running 3000.00 here. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Matt lm7...@gmail.com wrote: Quick alert to those who are not aware... back when I was running my business on T1 lines, I just assumed that when I was ready, I could order a T3 and upgrade my bandwidth. Not so. Just because you can get a T1 doesn't mean you can get a T3 without huge buildout costs. I was quoted $400,000 dollars to upgrade to a T3. I managed to get around it because otherwise ATT would have had to install a high count copper line down my road to be able to keep offering POTS service here, so I got lucky, and had a free install. But you may not be that fortunate. I just thought if I posted this, it might give some people a heads up to start planning for more bandwidth when you're coming close to needing t3 type capacity. What are you paying for your DS3? We are nearing the point of moving to OC3's at both locations and the loops are outrageous. This is on ATT as well. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jeremie Chism TritonDataLink WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
