Re: [WSG] IE6/7 behaviour
On 24 Jun 2008, at 15:41, Rob Enslin wrote:
Code CSS snippet:
body {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
text-align: center;
}
#wrap {
width: 832px;
margin: 0 auto;
}
…that should do it.
All the best,
Jon
-
http://jontangerine.com/
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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems
On 19 Jun 2008, at 11:06, Jon Tan wrote: On 19 Jun 2008, at 10:08, James Jeffery wrote: A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'. I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to use P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this case. [snip] It would be interesting to know how alternative browsers handle both s and single/double line breaks in blocks. Do they inject a pause or other aural boundary? Jon Gibbins (http://dotjay.co.uk) of GAWDS and Accessify forum has kindly run some screen reader tests on both with and . He's also published the actual results as .MP3s: http://lab.dotjay.co.uk/tests/screen-readers/poetry/ Jon - http://jontangerine.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems
On 19 Jun 2008, at 10:08, James Jeffery wrote: A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'. I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to use P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this case. Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before? Historically each stanza in a poem is a paragraph. Layout (new lines) began punctuating paragraphs in the later Middle Ages. Prior to that the lines ran into one another with punctuation used to indicate where breaths and breaks in the running text occurred [1]. Syntactic punctuation was not commonplace until after Ben Johnson's English Grammar in 1640. That means that layout /is/ punctuation for modern poetry, so markup needs to reflect that. My recommendation would be for stanzas and line breaks for most verse. To do anything that returns stanzas to running text when CSS is disabled would break the syntax of the verse /unless/ lines are specifically punctuated with something other than a break at the end; a comma for example. is an alternative but does not punctuate line ends at all, except visually. It would be interesting to know how alternative browsers handle both s and single/double line breaks in blocks. Do they inject a pause or other aural boundary? Jon Tan - http://jontangerine.com/ [1] http://www.ualberta.ca/~sreimer/ms-course/course/punc.htm *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
Tom Livingston provided the following information on 28/05/2008 3:26 AM: Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight to me... Hi Tom, This might be useful: "The alt attribute must be specified for the IMG and AREA elements. It is optional for the INPUT and APPLET elements." It's taken directly from: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#adef-alt Perhaps worth noting is that "alt" is short for "alternative text". Literally, a text equivalent of the element. On 27 May 2008, at 20:10, Andrew Freedman wrote: I may be wrong here but I've always worked on the premise that alt is alternative text for when the image isn't available (For whatever reason) and the title is the title of the image. An example would be alt="Customer Care Logo" title="We Care about you" If I read your right (assuming this hypothetical image actual has the text "We Care About You" embedded in it), the alt attribute value would be "We Care about you" and there would be no title. Regarding the title attribute: "The title attribute may annotate any number of elements". Taken from: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-title How about a real 'attributes for dummies' reference?? You can pretty much get all the information you need on any attribute from the recommendation: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/attributes.html Hope that helps, Jon - http://jontangerine.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] maximum backward compartible to mobile phone (WAP) users? Which XHTML DTD?
Dejan Kozina wrote: [...] phone owners just do not upgrade their browsers. They're far more likely to buy a new phone that to mess with the handset's preinstalled software. [...] Very interesting and informative reply Dejan, thank you. We've been discussing mobile content publishing for (ironically) a mobile phone provider to deliver content to their own employees - the user behaviour you describe sounds reasonable but if you have any data to support your statement could you let me know? I'm particularly interested in Opera downloads or usage where Opera is not the default device browser. Thanks Jon Tan www.gr0w.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant slideshow
Darren West wrote: Hello, Can anyone please recommend a standards compliant slideshow script that uses a list of images within the HTML markup to dynamically create the show. Slightly self-promoting but try http://scooch.gr0w.com . The current demo is woefully out of date already with a lot of work being done now around extra functionality but the core slide show features will persist. Please feel free to try it and let us know what you think. There's a free for personal use download coming shortly. All the best, Jon ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: "Respect" - be courteous up or leave
Russ, that was beautiful. The gentle sarcasm brought a tear of mirth to my eye. ta. lol. russ - maxdesign wrote: I want to talk today about "respect". For those of you who have not heard of this concept, "respect" is sometimes defined as "courteous regard for people's feelings". When you reply to a post on the list, you should at all times try to do so with respect. Everyone on this list is entitled to their own opinion. Sometimes they may be factually incorrect, other times they may have a different view from you but EVERYONE should be treated with respect. Below are some examples of replies that LACK respect: "You are totally wrong" "That is silly" "That is stupid" "You know nothing about..." "You are dumb" "You smell" Below are some more respectful alternatives: "I'm not sure I agree with that" "I think you may be misinterpreting..." "I respectfully disagree for the following reasons" "Have you considered taking a bath?" Today's lesson: when replying to others, be courteous or leave! In the near future I will cover a more subtle concept: "how not to always have the last word on a subject". However, that is a bit advanced for now, one step at a time. Russ Miss Manors ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Search Engine Script *Little off topic*
Hi Todd This is self promoting but we might have what you're looking for. Please feel free to check our PHP plug-in Grow Search listed here: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resourcecat30.cfm or directly here: http://www.gr0w.com/amos/growsearch/ There's also a livesearch version available which we've tested but not deployed. Regards Jon www.gr0w.com - Original Message - From: Todd Gleaton To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Search Engine Script *Little off topic* No database here. Just looking for a simple script that searches the site without advertisements or annual fee. thanks for the infotg - Original Message - From: Joseph R. B. Taylor To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Search Engine Script *Little off topic* You can always get the google "search this site", or you can find free scripts that search html documents, usually in the asp/php flavor. If the content of your site (articles and such) is databased, its very easy to write a search engine for that. Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Todd Gleaton wrote: Hello Everyone, As I said in the Subject...this maybe a little off topic but I thought I would ask the group since I am having a hard time finding what I am looking for. I am looking for a Search script to put on a website that will have about 35 to 40 web pages in it. Most of the scripts I've found through looking you have to pay annually. I am looking for preferablya free script or at least one I can buy for a 1 time fee. Anybody have any suggestions? Thankstg No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.2/253 - Release Date: 2/7/2006 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
Terrence Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Donna Jones said: A non-profit that i've maintained the website for for 8 years or so has recently...hired a PR firm. Why do the PR firm think they should maintain the site and not you? Have they put forward any compelling reasons why they are better qualified to look after a web site? Get them to justify their position. What are the long term implications when the grant money runs out? [...] Terrence makes good points. I'm not being funny but how, after an 8 year relationship, does a PR firm have the ability to over-ride your recommendations to the NFP? Sounds to me like you're due a little more respect and some support from the NFP in your work to make sure the NFP gets a good site. My points: - Expert PR /= expert web technologist. They are not necessarily the professionals [1]. - I'd be asking why web standards are *not* important, not feeling I have to justify why they are. - A quick demo with JAWS or even just no style view in FF should fix their claims to expertise when a test page is produced. - Reference to statutory requirements: http://www.w3.org/WAI/Policy/ Also, money saved in rubbish web design from this PR firm can go to more effect work. Even if (and no disrespect meant by this) they love the PR firm's designs and don't like your own ideas they can always produce the visual design and you code it. Either way your NFP saves money. Jon Tan www.gr0w.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] [1] http://webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2005_11.html#a000590 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Newcomers and Web Standards
Lori Cole wrote: I think I will start attending a local user group rather than using this list as I think people behave differently face to face[...] Lowri, I agree that people sometimes behave differently face to face. My impression is that the response you received was not due to any sexism - there are many women who participate in this list. Your impression may be due to what some might style arrogance but I would simply call it impoliteness. Taking the time to construct thoughtful responses in language that will most benefit the audience rather than the reputation of the writer is something we all need a reminder on now and again I think. What I would say is that after many years of participating in mailing lists etc. what's often lacking is courtesy and social skills rather than willingness to share knowledge. In fact it's the opposite; knowledge is often shared willingly for a price which can sometimes include an impolite tone to the language. I do not relate this to the WSG list specifically, IMO it is a symptom of online communities generally and perhaps egos specifically. There are many contributors to this mailing list that are worth listening to even if some of the language gives the impression of lacking in graciousness. I'd say that any lapse only relects on the person writing not the audience reading, nor the list in general from my observations. So don't miss out on the important bit regardless of anything else: The knowledge. I am just using Notepad now to write SCRICT code and rather than reaching for a reference book to remember a small detail or rather than running it through a validator, I thought a text editor might help. I can certainly research text editors myself but thought my question would be interesting for this list to address in terms of trying to stick to standards. Other have advised on specific tools. My advice would be that colour highlighting of code will help you immensly as you learn and many free editors either support standards / xhtml etc or have user-contributed plug-ins to do so. Cheking your code with the a validator will also help you along the way. In any case, you can definitely do better than notepad. Good luck. Jon Tan www.gr0w.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: UK Government Web Accessibility
"Edward Clarke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've just been informed of a BBC article referencing the UK Government and accessibility. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4478702.stm The stats claimed are actually a lot sharper than I'd imagine but I can see why this is the case. The actual report, 'eAccessibility of public sector services in the European Union' is here: http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/e-government/resources/eaccessibility/index.asp FWIW my summary is here with the stats converted to accessible tables: http://www.gr0w.com/articles/design/accessibility_of_eu_governments_web_sites_report/ They are paying for expert advice and being misinformed so who's fault is this? Is an accountant meant to know about W3C validation? IMO anyone buying any service for an organisation should be concerned with ROI / value for money and therefore should do their research or at the very least, ask a few service providers what they need to be looking out for and then research the answers. I've seen and contributed to articles in business magazines and industry publications that discuss these very issues. That's not to say there isn't more overt publicity that could be drawn to professional standards in design (I for one would lend as much support as I'm able to such a campaign), but information for procurers is out there if they look. Having said that, there are a list of stakeholders a mile long who should be interested in highlighting the issues you have in E Sussex, not least of all, the DTI and Chambers of Commerce. How do we address the bigger picture though? Micro-perfection of HTML tags and solid CSS design across even the most stubborn of browsers is not financially viable for the majority of the website market. I disagree. It's no less financially viable than tag-soup. In fact, accessible, standards-based design is more financially viable in the long term than not. It's inherent SEO and as such, any SEO / marketing budget that might otherwise go to adwords or meatspace marketing of the web site per se should be channelled in to the development and agencies could be advising this and evidencing it. I agree most businesses look at the bottom line; this appeals directly to that. All the best, Jon Tan www.gr0w.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems
On Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:53 PM, Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I could have sworn I got all these e-mails last night, what's going on?!? Ditto. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems
csslist wrote: Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: "So now one has to scroll both the window and the inner element in order to get to the content. Cute." Ok smart ass, thats 1 page that has a vertical scroller because I havent resized the flash >form on that 1 FRICKIN page, so there is a scroll bar, geezo Personal insults are not necessary. Gunlaug is correct. At 800x600 you have to scroll vertically and horizontally to even see the whole of your main content div. This is an EXACT 800x600 px screenshot without taking in to account other native elements that will be below / to the site of the browser window: http://gr0w.com/test/img/800x600.jpg (115.84 KB). Even if, as you state, the site is designed to fit within 800x600 screen resolution, it won't. Not only that but every empty href you have will be a dead link with javascript turned off. That's potentially about 10% of your audience. There are simple ways to have them degrade gracefully. Some people are taking the time to make suggestions. Granted you asked about a specific issue however, if you don't like what they have to say feel free to ignore it rather than acting like a child and spitting your dummy out at the list. Nothing that anyone has said so far would stop your client getting more business. In fact, it would do the opposite by making the site better. Perhaps part of all of our jobs is doing what we're asked by clients, but perhaps part of it is advising our clients when what they want is a hindrance to their business. In any event, by reacting so ungraciously to input, I doubt it will encourage further assistance with your problem. Jon Tan www.gr0w.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: University textbook or other resources?
"Laura Carlson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've been asked if there are useful university-focused textbooks or other resources suitable for teaching accessible web design. Hi Laura, if you didn't know already, these are superb live resources in addition to books: http://www.accessify.com/ http://www.accessifyforum.com http://www.gawds.org/ Books don't debate best practice like more dynamic sources so I'd be careful how they were used by students. That's not to say they aren't extremely useful though. Perhaps the WCAG would be the place to start along with case studies to demonstrate practical technique - contrary to the myth its pretty easy to read (and even easier with a tutor explaining as you go) http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/. There's also a working draft of the WCAG 2.0 too: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/. Supplementing that with judicious samples from the sites listed to flesh out the practice of accessible design based around the WCAG etc would top it off nicely. The RNIB has good resources on web practice: http://www.rnib.org/xpedio/groups/public/documents/code/public_rnib003460.hcsp also a useful article on UK law: http://www.thepickards.co.uk/Articles/The_DDA_and_IT.cfm Jon Tan www.gr0w.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Casual Friday[Drop-Down Menus]
"Al Sparber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: But drop-down hierarchical menus can be useful if well-deployed - and they can be integrated into an accessible web site, too. Yes. Exactly my point Al. 'Well deployed' is the issue. Most are not. I would add, 'only if absolutely necessary' by personal choice. I'm sure you'd agree the majority are inaccessible, unlike PMM. Most also fail for keyboard only users. That being said, I realise they have their fans but I'm just not one of them for all previous reasons. Jon Tan www.gr0w.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Casual Friday[Drop-Down Menus]
Chris Kennon wrote: I've adopted the philosophy, drop down menus are a surrogate for detailed Information Architecture. Sub-navigation should be introduced on internal pages to navigate sub-sections. Agreed under the assumption that you're not referring to navigating by select box. I only say that because I had a 10 minute debate with someone who was referring to drop-downs when they meant . :| Menus with drop down features are my idea of hyperhell and the majority of implementations are hyperdeath for screenreaders. IMO, they are often used instead of good contextual links, calls to action and invitations to action within the content proper which deliver much better usability. FWIW I think contextual links are also more 'natural' in the sense that in most cases, links from the actual content are an organic drill-down/across/up and allow users to make a series of logical steps towrds their goals. Too often I've been interested in something mentioned in the content of page but then being _forced_ to use a master drop down menu to find related information becuse there was no link from the content to quickly drill to it. Jon Tan www.gr0w.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Dragon Way (Site Check)
Web Man Walking <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks Jon. I thought I was going nuts. I have had a shot of the site on clients Mac and it is IE he is using. It does take over a minute to render the code on each page! yw Ed. Thought so. Code validates and seems OK to me? Am I just missing something obvious? To put it as gently as I can, yes: [1] Personally I put the user agents I design to in the job spec/quote so there re no misunderstandings later along the lines of, 'it doesn't look the sme in NN4 and FF'. [2] Consultation as to why supporting a certain agent is being depracated / depreciated if needed. E.g. Cost for extra work, audience use percentage etc. [3] Valid code doesn not mean the pages will look as you require in the browser. I'd suggest development in a standards compliant browser and cross-checking cross browser and platform _before_ showing the client in all other browsers as you go, rather than getting surprises at the end. OK that doesn't help you right now but as others have suggested, pointing out that the IE5.2- audience will make up (I'm guessing based on stats I monitor) <1% of the audience might help. The alterntive is (I assume not realistic) gettting a Mac, testing and re-writing your code. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Dragon Way (Site Check)
Dragon Way (Site Check)Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 8:45 AM, Web Man Walking wrote: I don't have a MAC and client is complaining of: 1. Homepage - Text under dolls is not centred Safari - exactly the same as FF/Win IE5.2/Mac: not present 2. Homepage - No logo showing Safari - exactly the same as FF/Win IE5.2/Mac: not present 3. Rest of site - Top bar missing If, 'top bar' = logo+deities/dolls menu then Safari 1.3.1: fine IE5.2/Mac: menu and logo masthead nudged flush with the top of the page and top border of the content hidden by the masthead/missing 4. Rest of site - dolls (same as 1.) see 3. 5. Slow Safari - fine IE5.2/Mac: Slow as hell (over a minute). Definitely not a connection issue as all other browsers are fine. Something is causing IE5.2 to struggle when rendering your code. Suggest they're using IE5.2/Mac to test unfortunately. Jon Tan www.gr0w.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1
Somaya Langley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...]* the way that's been selected is to show a thumbnail icon and the title or some descriptive metadata (similar to search results pages on the site: http://www.musicaustralia.org) If the is just to place the record in a block of search results like the example site then it might be worth considering with as the hyperlinked title - that would also apply more meningful html to the title of the item returned. The results description shown contextualy [Resources (1-20 of 529)] etc. numbers the block anyway. Interesting site btw. Jon Tan www.gr0w.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Tan Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 12:29 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1 Chris Kennon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute: is deprecated, or is it? It is depreciated ( http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html) although it is not obselete therefore will still be supported for backward compatibility. One possible reason could be that it completely destroys the semantics of an ordered list by allowing it to be broken up. I'm curious about the function of the list - does the numbering describe the images to make them meaningful in some way? An ordered list spread over multiple URIs strikes me as wrong as the list portion referenced by an individual URI may have less meaning when dislocated from other portions of the list. Something like spreading a library index over different rooms[files] in the building[domain]. Is there a reason apart from file size / download time that this list should be spread over multiple pages? I assume the archive is huge but if its just a contents list page then wouldn't it be hypertext with anchors for blocks and meaningful URIs for each image? I assume the library has some kind of tagging system or category system to classify images so access to groups of images themselves is achieved through that? Jon Tan www.gr0w.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** -- Incoming: No virus found. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.7/180 - Release Date: 23/11/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping
SunUp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is there a way to make it display the image at the END of the LINK, instead of at the end of the LINE? I've messed around w/ placement and padding etc. No joy. Hi Sunny Turning them off for IE has always been my answer. If you realy want the bg img in there to indicate an external link one workaround is to add a before the closing and apply a bg to that but it's a little verbose. btw... [off topic] for all of you who may go to the Melbourne bbq *blah* on behalf of anyone suffering under winter in the northern hemisphere; when people start talking about frisbees I get jealous. Jon Tan www.gr0w.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1
Chris Kennon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute: is deprecated, or is it? It is depreciated ( http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html) although it is not obselete therefore will still be supported for backward compatibility. One possible reason could be that it completely destroys the semantics of an ordered list by allowing it to be broken up. I'm curious about the function of the list - does the numbering describe the images to make them meaningful in some way? An ordered list spread over multiple URIs strikes me as wrong as the list portion referenced by an individual URI may have less meaning when dislocated from other portions of the list. Something like spreading a library index over different rooms[files] in the building[domain]. Is there a reason apart from file size / download time that this list should be spread over multiple pages? I assume the archive is huge but if its just a contents list page then wouldn't it be hypertext with anchors for blocks and meaningful URIs for each image? I assume the library has some kind of tagging system or category system to classify images so access to groups of images themselves is achieved through that? Jon Tan www.gr0w.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] More on character encoding
Jona Decker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...]Are there any other resources people are aware of that may help me make this >argument using standards rationale? According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_address the character is valid in the local part of an address according to RFC 2822. However, WCAG Checkpoint 14.1 would be appropriate if the email address will be rendered on the page at any time: 14.1 Use the clearest and simplest language appropriate for a site's content. [Priority 1] http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-facilitate-comprehension Again, if it will be visible checkpoint 13.1 also applies: 13.1 Clearly identify the target of each link. [Priority 2] Link text should be meaningful enough to make sense when read out of context http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-facilitate-navigation Jon Tan www.gr0w.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil
span or div, if the purpose of wrapping these lines is just to make them behave as block elements, then why not wrapping only 2 our of 4? If it was pure presenation, sure, but this was with reference to sematics. A hCard (which was the original idea of the reply) needs more: http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Ref. using : Mordechai Peller pointed out within is invalid. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil
If is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 Hi Graham Without being pedantic, you're quoting from the HTML 3.0 Draft (Expired) which has been superceded by HTML4.01. It's arguable whether applies to the whole resource or just a document within it, but my personal reading of the spec suggests to me that it's not appropriate for global contact information for a whole resource like a web site which was the example intitally given in the discussion. The HTML4.01 address recommendation is here: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#h-7.5.6 Regards Jon Tan www.gr0w.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil
Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a div in the first place? What are we gaining that I have missed? Hi Lea, The use instead of was to allow for semantic class names as per http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also personal preference but I would always seek to minimise the block level grouping elements in my mark-up. Jon Tan www.gr0w.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil
All correspondence should be addressed to: The Secretary Your Club PO Box 999 Anytown VIC 3000 How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next? I think that for any agent the semantic way to separate address lines would be using a comma at the end of each line as appropriate, which regardless of what mark-up was used would be interpreted correctly by screen readers. Doesn't this also apply to non-CSS agents too? I.e: The Secretary, Your Club, PO Box 999, Anytown VIC 3000. Is just as semantically correct as The Secretary, Your Club, PO Box 999, Antown VIC 3000. Regards Jon Tan www.gr0w.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil
I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said was used only for information about the author, not for various adddresses that might be listed on a Contact Us page. I don't recall what he said about . I'll have to download the podcast and listen to it again -- it will be a pleasure! Yes, you're correct about : Part of the presentation was also a comment about being a misnomer with the example in the spec being contradictory or at least not congruent with the actual specification and therefore not suitable for addresses in this context. [...] considered using but to me the code looks much cleaner and the css has one less item by using . (I like the less-is-more concept.) |Hope Stewart I would usally totally agree with the 'less is more' point but I disagree that has any intrinsic semantic value - it is purely presentational whereas could if the hCard micoformat was used and it also neatly solves the visual requirement. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil
has absolutely no semantic value, so unless you are going to apply formatting to each constiuent of the address, or you are going to use the hcard microformat I really see no point in adding page weight simply to avoid using a element of two. kind regards Terrence Wood. The hCard format adds meaning to 's in this instance and additonal page weight is tiny. Kind regards Jon Tan www.gr0w.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil
Tantek Celik talks about the and tags in his Elements of
Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here:
http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view
My suggestion would be that is not necessary when the same visual
effect can be achieved with around each address item which is then
style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically
useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat:
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
Jon Tan
Grow Collective
www.gr0w.com
- Original Message -
From: "Hope Stewart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Web Standards Group"
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:47 PM
Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil
I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
and for the most part can totally avoid using . But in the example below
I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using :
All correspondence should be addressed to:
The Secretary
Your Club
PO Box 999
Anytown VIC 3000
How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be
contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using
a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?
If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?
Hope Stewart
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