Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
I use XHTML Strict, and have modded the DTD to accept New Window code. If you would like you can use my version: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC XHTML 1.01 Strict http://www.neester.com/DTD/xhtml-target.dtd; I dubbed it XHTML 1.01 Strict... I know incorrectly named 1.01 - but I thought it was cute at the time... john wrote: Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. Is there a standard answer for Web standards, or what are your points of view on this? If you were to do it, what's your preferred method? Thanks. -- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.neester.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Chris Stratford wrote: I use XHTML Strict, and have modded the DTD to accept New Window code. What always makes me wonder about these solutions is that, in effect, they are still reliant on the fact that current browsers have the built-in understanding and capability of reacting a certain way (i.e. popping up a new window) when they encounter something like target=_blank. It's not the DTD that automatically causes this behaviour, it only tells the browser that it's ok to have those attributes in the code. If (I know, unlikely in the foreseeable future) a browser came out that only understood anything from xhtml 1.0 strict onwards, I wonder how this type of functionality could be forced. Surely, beyond modifying a DTD, there must be some additional piece of behavioural code that will have to be passed on to the user agent? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole eXtensible nature of XHTML here? Hypothetically speaking, anyway... Patrick _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
The browser will understand the target=_blank no matter what the DTD is. I think it would just assume HTML, and therefore _blank = new window. The DTD I forged with the help of a tutorial - will allow you the VALIDATE XHTML 1.0 Strict code. That is all - I should have mentioned that earlier. And sorry - my messsage was 2 days late. It was in my outbox - uni have blocked port 25 so I cannot email from my neester account - only my UTS account, which isnt registered to the list... and things would jsut get confusing then... so i thought i would just post it when I am at home. :) Sorry - lol. Cheers, *Chris Stratford* Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Chris Stratford wrote: I use XHTML Strict, and have modded the DTD to accept New Window code. What always makes me wonder about these solutions is that, in effect, they are still reliant on the fact that current browsers have the built-in understanding and capability of reacting a certain way (i.e. popping up a new window) when they encounter something like target=_blank. It's not the DTD that automatically causes this behaviour, it only tells the browser that it's ok to have those attributes in the code. If (I know, unlikely in the foreseeable future) a browser came out that only understood anything from xhtml 1.0 strict onwards, I wonder how this type of functionality could be forced. Surely, beyond modifying a DTD, there must be some additional piece of behavioural code that will have to be passed on to the user agent? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole eXtensible nature of XHTML here? Hypothetically speaking, anyway... Patrick _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.neester.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
I think you are correct in your assessment that opening a new window is a behavior of the UA, and therefore (arguably) should not be included in the DTD that describes the structure of a document. Having said all that Chris's solution of having extended and published the DTD is perfectly acceptable. I personally think opening windows should be handled via javascript where it is possible to test for the existence of such behavior. A good UA will then determine what cause of action to take based on it's own configuration - such as we have with Firefox. In this case it is perfectly acceptable to mark up your document with something along the lines of: a href=someurl.html rel=external or a href=someurl.html rel=supplementary or a href=someurl.html rel=help and attach a behavior script to open a new window for links marked up with the rel attribute. This approach to markup is valid with the W3C published DTD's, although the values external and supplementary for the rel attribute are not described. ./tdw On 8/10/04 9:53 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Chris Stratford wrote: I use XHTML Strict, and have modded the DTD to accept New Window code. What always makes me wonder about these solutions is that, in effect, they are still reliant on the fact that current browsers have the built-in understanding and capability of reacting a certain way (i.e. popping up a new window) when they encounter something like target=_blank. It's not the DTD that automatically causes this behaviour, it only tells the browser that it's ok to have those attributes in the code. If (I know, unlikely in the foreseeable future) a browser came out that only understood anything from xhtml 1.0 strict onwards, I wonder how this type of functionality could be forced. Surely, beyond modifying a DTD, there must be some additional piece of behavioural code that will have to be passed on to the user agent? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole eXtensible nature of XHTML here? Hypothetically speaking, anyway... Patrick _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Terrence Wood wrote: Having said all that Chris's solution of having extended and published the DTD is perfectly acceptable. Yes, sorry...I wasn't questioning the validity of Chris' solution per se. I was just taking a step back to look at the bigger picture, beyond mere validation, to what it actually means to create your own DTD and how any effect is still dependent on legacy (well, if you consider xhtml 1.0 transitional and before as legacy) behaviour hardcoded into the UA so that it can cope with older code. Extending a DTD to allow for deprecated elements/attributes is a working solution today, but is more akin, in my humble opinion, to those methods that rely on javascript to pepper a document with legacy code onload so that it passes validation but then - after the DOM has been manipulated - in effect turns into invalid code. Not passing judgement, merely observing that if there were a strict browser out there, even a hand-rolled DTD allowing target=_blank would not actually mean that the UA would understand your intentions... Patrick _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Ryan Nichols wrote: The reason you would want to usa a 'popup' is for contextual information. Usually this is in more of a web application scenario than a website per-se. So you have to think more broadly in the term of website than serving documents with content in them (ala 'surfing'). Contextual information has been used for a looong time in user interfaces. Just think of the numerous desktop applications you use on a daily basis and how they use pop-up windows to either prompt for more data, or provide other useful information. An interesting perspective, Ryan, but I find your contextual argument to be thoroughly convincing as a reinforcement of my own If a user wants to maintain their context by opening a new tab/window, they may (as indeed, I almost always do). Forcing a new tab/window provides no choice to the user I could possibly be swayed to agree with you when we are talking about literal, full web applications. If someone chooses to purchase, or install, a specific web application then I am happy to assume that they have done their research. Hence they would be aware of the application's policy regarding use of popups for certain functions etc I would not consider a shopping cart on a site to qualify as such a web application. The user on an ecommerce site has not chosen the application or its functionality. They using it merely as a means to an end The difference between the two being that one allows the user a choice (in purchasing the application) whereas the other does not Now that we are significantly off into the philosophical waffle of hypothetical scenarios and ethical stances (not necessarily a bad thing), I hope all this is helping John sway his usability team! Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Don't imagine that users of visual browsers are automatically free of disabilities. Think for instance about users with learning disabilities...they too would get confused by a new window being popped up, effectively breaking the back button navigation. I believe I've seen these icons before, but can you tell me where to find some I can choose from and freely use? Thanks. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
The main point they were making was that they wanted the new site in a new window so that they can visually separate my site from external links (a point I don't understand, since it should be pretty obvious when you're leaving the original site). They also enjoyed the idea of having the other window there when they're done with my site, so they can easily check it out (um...hello? Bookmarks?). After perusing the responses (which I appreciate very much), I've made a decision against new windows. Thanks. ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter Terrence Wood wrote: There is a whole plethora of points against opening new windows... I am really curious as to what your usability team, or anybody else, see as the benfits of opening new windows. ./tdw john wrote: Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Have a look at Disability Online (http://www.disability.vic.gov.au) - they solve it quite nicely by opening external links in new windows, yet providing little icons which inform the user that the link will open new windows. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of john Sent: Wednesday, 6 October 2004 2:30 AM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. Is there a standard answer for Web standards, or what are your points of view on this? If you were to do it, what's your preferred method? Thanks. -- ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Assuming the user knows what the icons mean. In my experience, they unfortunately don't. Cheers, Dey On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:48:50 +1000, Andreas Boehmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have a look at Disability Online (http://www.disability.vic.gov.au) - they solve it quite nicely by opening external links in new windows, yet providing little icons which inform the user that the link will open new windows. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
On 10/6/04 1:48 AM Andreas Boehmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: Have a look at Disability Online (http://www.disability.vic.gov.au) - they solve it quite nicely by opening external links in new windows, yet providing little icons which inform the user that the link will open new windows. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of john Sent: Wednesday, 6 October 2004 2:30 AM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. I don't have a screen reader, but does a screen reader say new window or something on those links? Thanks Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dey Alexander Assuming the user knows what the icons mean. In my experience, they unfortunately don't. Hi Dey, I agree, but then again I don't think it harms anybody to have them. And for the general user it is just a matter of education: the first time you wonder what the icon is, then you learn its meaning by clicking on it (or moving the mouse over it to read the title), from then on you will most likely understand and appreciate its existance. If icons such as these could be introduced as a standard on websites, they would be a helpful and user-friendly tool. On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:48:50 +1000, Andreas Boehmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have a look at Disability Online (http://www.disability.vic.gov.au) - they solve it quite nicely by opening external links in new windows, yet providing little icons which inform the user that the link will open new windows. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rick Faaberg Sent: Wednesday, 6 October 2004 7:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? On 10/6/04 1:48 AM Andreas Boehmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: Have a look at Disability Online (http://www.disability.vic.gov.au) - they solve it quite nicely by opening external links in new windows, yet providing little icons which inform the user that the link will open new windows. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of john Sent: Wednesday, 6 October 2004 2:30 AM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. I don't have a screen reader, but does a screen reader say new window or something on those links? It sort of does: the icon that is sitting just before the link have an ALT tag saying Link opens new window. So if the link is being read in context, blind users will most likely understand it. Then again, if they jump from one link to another, they will miss it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
I would like to share an interesting experience I had during accessibility testing of a website, in regards to this topic: We were testing a blind participant using JAWS. The website we tested opened external links in new windows. The problem was, however, that the computer had Google Toolbar installed, which as a default blocks popups. While doing so, Google displays a little warning to inform the user that a popup was just blocked. The problem was, that these warnings are not being read by JAWS. So our blind user didn't have any clue why pressing on the links did not get him to the new page! That's a problem caused by Google, not the website, of course. But nonetheless it is an accessibility issue that probably needs to be considered. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lachlan Hardy Sent: Wednesday, 6 October 2004 4:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Ryan Nichols wrote: The reason you would want to usa a 'popup' is for contextual information. Usually this is in more of a web application scenario than a website per-se. So you have to think more broadly in the term of website than serving documents with content in them (ala 'surfing'). Contextual information has been used for a looong time in user interfaces. Just think of the numerous desktop applications you use on a daily basis and how they use pop-up windows to either prompt for more data, or provide other useful information. An interesting perspective, Ryan, but I find your contextual argument to be thoroughly convincing as a reinforcement of my own If a user wants to maintain their context by opening a new tab/window, they may (as indeed, I almost always do). Forcing a new tab/window provides no choice to the user I could possibly be swayed to agree with you when we are talking about literal, full web applications. If someone chooses to purchase, or install, a specific web application then I am happy to assume that they have done their research. Hence they would be aware of the application's policy regarding use of popups for certain functions etc I would not consider a shopping cart on a site to qualify as such a web application. The user on an ecommerce site has not chosen the application or its functionality. They using it merely as a means to an end The difference between the two being that one allows the user a choice (in purchasing the application) whereas the other does not Now that we are significantly off into the philosophical waffle of hypothetical scenarios and ethical stances (not necessarily a bad thing), I hope all this is helping John sway his usability team! Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
I also just noticed: the website has got a little legend at the bottom explaining the icon. But of course having the legend there does not mean that the users will see and read it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dey Alexander Sent: Wednesday, 6 October 2004 7:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Assuming the user knows what the icons mean. In my experience, they unfortunately don't. Cheers, Dey On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:48:50 +1000, Andreas Boehmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have a look at Disability Online (http://www.disability.vic.gov.au) - they solve it quite nicely by opening external links in new windows, yet providing little icons which inform the user that the link will open new windows. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Ryan, you have put forward a lot of ideas, but I can't help but thinking that the examples you provide make a stronger case for the counterpoint to the argument you are trying to make. Ryan Nichols wrote: The reason you would want to usa a 'popup' is for contextual information. Usually this is in more of a web application scenario than a website per-se. So you have to think more broadly in the term of website than serving documents with content in them (ala 'surfing'). Contextual information has been used for a looong time in user interfaces. Just think of the numerous desktop applications you use on a daily basis and how they use pop-up windows to either prompt for more data, or provide other useful information. Computers are incredibly complex things to use and it generally takes a long time to learn how to use one properly... even double clicking is a skill that must be learnt. Not too many web sites have the luxury of making people learn how to use 'em. The only pop-up windows I have encountered contained advertising, or content better suited as inline content... not really helpful stuff like preventing me from overwriting a file in a save dialog. Also, with desktop applications you usually cannot proceed with a task until you have completed whatever subtask a dialog (pop-up) requires, which is not the case with pop-ups in a web browser. If you think about these scenarios, it is when the application needs to present something new to you, but do so in a way that you don't lose your context. You don't want to alter the layout of the 'page' for this, because the content may not be directly related, and it can confuse the user from accomplishing their task. If it's not directly related to the task enough to include in the page content how is opening a pop-up window any more conducive to task completion or any less confusing than inline content to someone who hasn't used your web application before? Think of complex scenarios such as when your funneling a user through a shopping cart checkout. In these scenarios, you do not want to distract the user in any way from the task, you don't want to confuse them. However, often you might need to collect data on a particular topic related to the checkout process. This is a fantastic time to use contextual windows. But wait theres more? At what point in making a sale do you want to interrupt that process? If it's related, and important enough to the checkout process, then include it inline. If not, then it's not really about task completion... it's about something else entirely. There are entire careers to be had in discovering why people abandon shopping carts. They allow the user to answer the question in a way that they can still 'see' or be aware of what they were originally doing, rather than going to another page and losing context. Now the reason 'it's up to the user' bit doesn't apply is because this is an application. By this reasoning it's ok that each time you save a file your OS asks you something related to files, but not the file you are saving. For example: Alert: I've notice that you haven't saved anything in Projects December 2002 for a while. You have a file called notes2003.txt will I make a copy in Projects December 2002? [OK][CANCEL] (wait a minute... that's XP) The user is already using the application and they are actively engaged in it. Applications are geared to helping the user accomplish a task. Passive browsing is different, and most of the arguments expressed here are great points for that user context. I completely agree that applications should help in task completion. However, as stated earlier the examples given don't seem to do that. To use another example, imagine a long article on a webpage. You funneled through the navigation and selected your article you are going to invest time to read. The article has a lot of diagrams. This is a good place to use contextual information. Think of a physical book. Ever been anoyed at having to skip ahead or back to find that diagram they referenced? Your annoyed because you lost your context, you lost your place in the text and had to go somewhere else to find the extra information. In a web article, those same diagrams can 'popup' in small windows, and you can view and close them without having to lose your place. This is not possible by sending the user to a whole new webpage. except with either the back button (which doesn't break when you don't open a window) or a good ol' hypertext link. Trust me, user testing would find the contextual scenario much more pleasing. Also remember dial-up users. Loading and reloading that page takes time, even with 'cache'. Viewing the contextual information is much faster if it appears in it's own window. I am a dial up user at home. Content must still load regardless of which window it loads into. Generally user testing finds against the use of pop-ups. Now you could use DHTML for this. This is a pretty feasible
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Regarding external links in new window, like many of you I have the usual concerns. Although most users are familiar with the idea of closing external windows, some users will be confused. Some people with cognitive disabilities fit this description. Also changing the current window or popping up new windows can be very disorienting to users who cannot see that this has happened. Most users of assistive technology prefer not having to deal with multiple browser windows, especially unannounced ones. It's a spatial orientation issue. Keeping focus on multiple windows is often problematic for people with visual impairments. Finally, alternative user agents may not support multiple screen windows, and/or older machines may experience a performance hit if running multiple browser windows. If a client insists on having a link open in a new window, I would suggest explicitly warning the user with a clear indication that the page will open in a different window. Also it is a good idea to provide a title attribute with a description indicating that the link opens a new window. Some references: http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/usability#popups Laura ___ Laura L. Carlson Information Technology Systems and Services University of Minnesota Duluth Duluth, MN 55812-3009 http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
In most of the usability testing I've conducted or been involved in, participants have stated that they do not like pop up windows. - Susan I don't doubt that! Let's replace our word of 'pop-up' (which many web surfers would shudder at the thought of :) and replace it with 'information I can get / action I can do, without leaving the page'. That's what will pass. Here, I'll bring in the help of an expert. Excellent book, 'The Design of Sites' by Douglas Duyne, James Landay, and Jason Hong. Quote is from the section on Process Funnels. Sometimes customers need additional information that you have not provided on a page, such as extra help or product details. Provide a link to a pop-up window containing clean product details, context sensitive help, or information from the frequently asked questions to make the extra information less intrusive. Your challenge is to implement this extra content without detracting from the main purpose. not really helpful stuff like preventing me from overwriting a file in a save dialog. Also, with desktop applications you usually cannot proceed with a task until you have completed whatever subtask a dialog (pop-up) requires, which is not the case with pop-ups in a web browser. - Terrance Ah.. Exactly, that's a situation which happens many many times in web applications. You are thinking of traditional pop-ups. But wait theres more? At what point in making a sale do you want to interrupt that process? If it's related, and important enough to the checkout process, then include it inline. - Terrence Your forgetting, nothing you do inline will command as much attention as info displayed on top of the page content. It attracts our attention visually and will produce quicker and more accurate responses from users. Disturbing the page layout to show complex information will confuse the user and you risk them not even noticing the change. The key is a process funnel. The user is attempting to accomplish a clearly defined task. They want to accomplish it, they've 'signed up' to accomplish it. THAT's where the pop-up window (DHTML or Browser) is useful. Forcing them onto another page will lose sales and disorient the user. Imagine filling out a complex form and you click on a link called need help? and you are whisked away to an entirely different page deep in the help section? User choice? The user doesn't know WHAT'S going to happen before clicking, and in this case, disorientation shouldn't be a choice. Again, I have to say in a shopping cart scenario, you will lose sales when you remove people from a process funnel in the middle of the transaction. You and I know how to right-click and open in a tab...but most people do not. Also keep in mind in the same scenarios, it may not be a link. You might want to show a window with a critical error alert, something that must be dealt with by the user before continuing. Pop-up windows command more attention than anything you can do on the page itself. (Think warning dialog boxes in windows) I think we're all deeply scarred and mentally distraught from annoying pop-up ads...I know I am! But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. At any rate, back to semantics...I'd personally love to see the addition of link types for anchors in future versions. Cheers! Ryan Nichols Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan R. Grossman Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 6:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? A number of the corporations I've work for have the best practice of presenting a page in the same window which notifies the user that they are about to leave the coproration name web site with links that give the user the choice of continuing on to an external website or returning to the page they clicked on the external link from. Many of them also add a disclaimer on this page that lets the user know that the website they are going to content is not controlled by them and therefore they can't gaurantee the content. If they choose to go on, the external site is opened in the same window to avoid confusion of windows lost behind, or not knowing what has happened. After careful thought I have instituted this process during many other contracts since it allows the user to make a decision. Since they are links, not buttons the user can also opt to open the external link in a separate window and return to the the page the external link was on. Though I do not urge clients to use the disclaimer since they're already announcing it's not their website. This is done whether the external link is integrated into text or on a links page, since it's not reasonable to assume that all web users understand that a links page generally means external links. Susan Grossman On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 10:43:30
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Funny - the mail-archive.com link at http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/ opens in a new window... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
On 7/10/04 4:15 AM, Ryan Nichols wrote: Here, I'll bring in the help of an expert. Excellent book, 'The Design of Sites' by Douglas Duyne, James Landay, and Jason Hong. Quote is from the section on Process Funnels. I have this book, and as a formal collection of design patterns it's a fantastic resource. But, I don't rate it highly in terms of it's usability e.g. the TOC uses condensed light all caps which is really hard to scan. And, a cursory look before leaving for work this morning failed to turn up the term process funnel. My point is this: the book lacks usabilty, and by extension so will many of their suggestions. The last sentence you cite is good. not really helpful stuff like preventing me from overwriting a file in a save dialog. Also, with desktop applications you usually cannot proceed with a task until you have completed whatever subtask a dialog (pop-up) requires, which is not the case with pop-ups in a web browser. - Terrance Ah.. Exactly, that's a situation which happens many many times in web applications. You are thinking of traditional pop-ups. Exactly what situation happens many times in web applications? The nature, or behavior of pop-ups doesn't change because of their content. Can you be more specific about what a non-traditional pop-up is? But wait theres more? At what point in making a sale do you want to interrupt that process? If it's related, and important enough to the checkout process, then include it inline. - Terrence Your forgetting, nothing you do inline will command as much attention as info displayed on top of the page content. It attracts our attention visually and will produce quicker and more accurate responses from users. Disturbing the page layout to show complex information will confuse the user and you risk them not even noticing the change. I'm sure the invetor of the blink tag and marquee tag, and 1px killer design said the same... there are countless ways of focusing attention. And my question stands: what would you want to do that is more important than confirming an order? Clear labeling and familiar patterns produce quick and accurate results - nothing else. The key is a process funnel. The user is attempting to accomplish a clearly defined task. They want to accomplish it, they've 'signed up' to accomplish it. THAT's where the pop-up window (DHTML or Browser) is useful. Forcing them onto another page will lose sales and disorient the user. Imagine filling out a complex form and you click on a link called need help? and you are whisked away to an entirely different page deep in the help section? Ryan, I think you're missing the point. I've said If the information is important to task completion include it inline. My sense of inline is not neccessarily a new page - it can come after the task oriented stuff placed at the top of the page. A new window usually *does* load a new page and this is why you assume additional information comes from a separate document. User choice? The user doesn't know WHAT'S going to happen before clicking, and in this case, disorientation shouldn't be a choice. Again, I have to say in a shopping cart scenario, you will lose sales when you remove people from a process funnel in the middle of the transaction. You and I know how to right-click and open in a tab...but most people do not. Also keep in mind in the same scenarios, it may not be a link. see comments above... and again how is a popup window not removing a person from the task at hand?. You might want to show a window with a critical error alert, something that must be dealt with by the user before continuing. Pop-up windows command more attention than anything you can do on the page itself. (Think warning dialog boxes in windows) As I stated earlier, and which you quote at the beginning of this email: Pop-up windows do not behave in the same way as warning dialogs. Perhaps you are thinking of javascript alerts, which do provide this type of functionality. I think we're all deeply scarred and mentally distraught from annoying pop-up ads...I know I am! But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. At any rate, back to semantics...I'd personally love to see the addition of link types for anchors in future versions. link types already exist, it's called the rel attribute: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/links.html#edef-A cheers Terrence. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
I'm intitially responded to a post regarding any possible usability reasons why you would want 'pop-ups'. I re-defined pop-ups as not limited to web pop-ups, but any windowed information which appears on top of content to show contextual information or prompt for user action. Whether it is implemented with flash, javascript, browser window, or a desktop GUI, I gave usability reasons why those paradigms are used and the context in which they are useful. At this point any further discussion boils down to misunderstandings. I fully understand why 95% of the time on websites/applications new browser windows are not good I only wanted to make an alternate point. At any rate this is a great list and the posts here are very informative to read. Cheers! Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 2:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? On 7/10/04 4:15 AM, Ryan Nichols wrote: Here, I'll bring in the help of an expert. Excellent book, 'The Design of Sites' by Douglas Duyne, James Landay, and Jason Hong. Quote is from the section on Process Funnels. I have this book, and as a formal collection of design patterns it's a fantastic resource. But, I don't rate it highly in terms of it's usability e.g. the TOC uses condensed light all caps which is really hard to scan. And, a cursory look before leaving for work this morning failed to turn up the term process funnel. My point is this: the book lacks usabilty, and by extension so will many of their suggestions. The last sentence you cite is good. not really helpful stuff like preventing me from overwriting a file in a save dialog. Also, with desktop applications you usually cannot proceed with a task until you have completed whatever subtask a dialog (pop-up) requires, which is not the case with pop-ups in a web browser. - Terrance Ah.. Exactly, that's a situation which happens many many times in web applications. You are thinking of traditional pop-ups. Exactly what situation happens many times in web applications? The nature, or behavior of pop-ups doesn't change because of their content. Can you be more specific about what a non-traditional pop-up is? But wait theres more? At what point in making a sale do you want to interrupt that process? If it's related, and important enough to the checkout process, then include it inline. - Terrence Your forgetting, nothing you do inline will command as much attention as info displayed on top of the page content. It attracts our attention visually and will produce quicker and more accurate responses from users. Disturbing the page layout to show complex information will confuse the user and you risk them not even noticing the change. I'm sure the invetor of the blink tag and marquee tag, and 1px killer design said the same... there are countless ways of focusing attention. And my question stands: what would you want to do that is more important than confirming an order? Clear labeling and familiar patterns produce quick and accurate results - nothing else. The key is a process funnel. The user is attempting to accomplish a clearly defined task. They want to accomplish it, they've 'signed up' to accomplish it. THAT's where the pop-up window (DHTML or Browser) is useful. Forcing them onto another page will lose sales and disorient the user. Imagine filling out a complex form and you click on a link called need help? and you are whisked away to an entirely different page deep in the help section? Ryan, I think you're missing the point. I've said If the information is important to task completion include it inline. My sense of inline is not neccessarily a new page - it can come after the task oriented stuff placed at the top of the page. A new window usually *does* load a new page and this is why you assume additional information comes from a separate document. User choice? The user doesn't know WHAT'S going to happen before clicking, and in this case, disorientation shouldn't be a choice. Again, I have to say in a shopping cart scenario, you will lose sales when you remove people from a process funnel in the middle of the transaction. You and I know how to right-click and open in a tab...but most people do not. Also keep in mind in the same scenarios, it may not be a link. see comments above... and again how is a popup window not removing a person from the task at hand?. You might want to show a window with a critical error alert, something that must be dealt with by the user before continuing. Pop-up windows command more attention than anything you can do on the page itself. (Think warning dialog boxes in windows) As I stated earlier, and which you quote at the beginning of this email
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Thanks for you contribution to this discussion Ryan, my apologies if you felt 'got at' in any way by me... it certainly was a lively debate, and it was great that you voiced your opinion with such enthusiasm. cheers ./tdw On 7/10/04 1:26 PM, Ryan Nichols wrote: I'm intitially responded to a post regarding any possible usability reasons why you would want 'pop-ups'. I re-defined pop-ups as not limited to web pop-ups, but any windowed information which appears on top of content to show contextual information or prompt for user action. Whether it is implemented with flash, javascript, browser window, or a desktop GUI, I gave usability reasons why those paradigms are used and the context in which they are useful. At this point any further discussion boils down to misunderstandings. I fully understand why 95% of the time on websites/applications new browser windows are not good I only wanted to make an alternate point. At any rate this is a great list and the posts here are very informative to read. Cheers! Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. Is there a standard answer for Web standards, or what are your points of view on this? If you were to do it, what's your preferred method? Thanks. -- ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
John, Imagine using a screen reader when you are suddenly catapulted into a new browser window. Your navigation is shot to pieces. It is best practice to always open external links within the same browser session. At worst, it is permissible when, for instance, you deem a pop-up associated with the current site to be the optimum solution for displaying additional information or when expanding a thumbnail but you should offer a courtesy warning such as This will open in a new window, or similar. Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer www.seowebsitepromotion.com www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of john Sent: 05 October 2004 17:30 To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. Is there a standard answer for Web standards, or what are your points of view on this? If you were to do it, what's your preferred method? Thanks. -- ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Also, checkout WAI Priority 2 Checkpoint 10.1 Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer www.seowebsitepromotion.com www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of john Sent: 05 October 2004 17:30 To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. Is there a standard answer for Web standards, or what are your points of view on this? If you were to do it, what's your preferred method? Thanks. -- ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Thank you, Mike. This goes along with my line of thinking as well. ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter Mike Pepper wrote: John, Imagine using a screen reader when you are suddenly catapulted into a new browser window. Your navigation is shot to pieces. It is best practice to always open external links within the same browser session. At worst, it is permissible when, for instance, you deem a pop-up associated with the current site to be the optimum solution for displaying additional information or when expanding a thumbnail but you should offer a courtesy warning such as This will open in a new window, or similar. Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer www.seowebsitepromotion.com www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of john Sent: 05 October 2004 17:30 To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. Is there a standard answer for Web standards, or what are your points of view on this? If you were to do it, what's your preferred method? Thanks. -- ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Mike Pepper wrote: John, Imagine using a screen reader when you are suddenly catapulted into a new browser window. Your navigation is shot to pieces. It is best practice to always open external links within the same browser session. At worst, it is permissible when, for instance, you deem a pop-up associated with the current site to be the optimum solution for displaying additional information or when expanding a thumbnail but you should offer a courtesy warning such as This will open in a new window, or similar. Many marketing groups would never accept replacing the content of the current browser window of their site with the content of an external site. Is there some standard way to give the user control of popups, such as a checbox (maybe somewhat obscured from visual browsers)? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
John wrote: Many marketing groups would never accept replacing the content of the current browser window of their site with the content of an external site. Is there some standard way to give the user control of popups, such as a checbox (maybe somewhat obscured from visual browsers)? Don't imagine that users of visual browsers are automatically free of disabilities. Think for instance about users with learning disabilities...they too would get confused by a new window being popped up, effectively breaking the back button navigation. The best thing to do, if the client is absolutely adamant that new windows be popped up, is to give users enough direct clues that activating a link will indeed open a new window (e.g. adding (opens in a new window) to the link text of title attribute, adding an icon - for instance via css' background property - or similar) Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
The best thing to do, if the client is absolutely adamant that new windows be popped up, is to give users enough direct clues that activating a link will indeed open a new window (e.g. adding (opens in a new window) to the link text of title attribute, adding an icon - for instance via css' background property - or similar) I agree with this thinking. Give people ample warning through surrounding text, title attributes, maybe an icon of some sort that lets them know they are leaving your page. -- Clayton Lengel-Zigich http://www.lengelzigich.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
john wrote: Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. Please see the first two items at: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html Is there a standard answer for Web standards, or what are your points of view on this? If you were to do it, what's your preferred method? I have more respect for a user than to decide for him when he needs a new window. It's his computer, not yours. Modern browsers (those not made by M$) give either partial or complete power to disregard any site attempt to open a new window. You can see discussion of development of the power to do this and issues involved in the Firefox browser at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=172962 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=227241 as well as several others on Mozilla.org's bugzilla. -- [W]hoever finds me finds life[A]ll who hate me love death. Proverbs 8:35-6 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Is there a standard answer for Web standards, or what are your points of view on this? The fact that the target attribute has disappeared from XHTML speaks volumes: don't open new windows. Opening new browser windows is about annoying as blinking text, or marquee text, and I can't think of a single instance where a popup window resolves a design issue cannot be resolved through other means. Many marketing groups would never accept replacing the content of the current browser window of their site with the content of an external site. Marketing groups need to 'get with the program' and 'raise the bar' if they want to be known for 'excellence' in web design, and realise pop ups are just s twentith century. It is arrogance of the highest order to assume that by following a link on your page your visitor has not achieved what they want from your site. If I want to open a window I'll do it myself thanks, assuming my UA has that capability. ./tdw ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
On Wed, 2004-10-06 at 02:30, john wrote: Is there a standard answer for Web standards, or what are your points of view on this? Here is a recent discussion on the proposed CSS3 property 'target-new' which was considering putting target behaviour into CSS, uurrgh! I think the points raised here, very much hit the nail on the head. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2004Sep/0074.html Regards Chris Blown ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
There is a whole plethora of points against opening new windows... I am really curious as to what your usability team, or anybody else, see as the benfits of opening new windows. ./tdw john wrote: Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Okay, I'll stick my neck out here for a list chopping. I personally like opening a new window whenever I'm web surfing. It's something that I got into a habit or doing long ago and far away. I'm still waiting for a big, honking G5 to be sitting under my fingertips, but until that day I'm stuck on a G3 Mac at OS9 on IE5.1.7. I hate the IE interface (actually, I hate all browser interfaces) and I close it down to nothing but the address bar. The back, forward, stop and reload buttons are available in the top left hand corner, but the only one I really use is the reload button. Even with the tab browsers that I've tried, I still end up opening a new tab more often than using the back and forward buttons. This is just the way I ended up traveling the web, I'm sure that others have their own ways as well. I've discussed this with my partners and others and they all like the open a new window concept. I fully understand the other point of view and why the W3C believes what they believe. I've never been ticked off by a site opening a link in a new window, but I sure as heck have been royally unhappy with pop-up, under and through windows as well as poorly coded java script that freeze my machine or web sites that only work in IE for windows. In fact, those are much higher sins (IMHO) than opening a link in a new window... gulp On 10/5/04 7:19 PM, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is a whole plethora of points against opening new windows... I am really curious as to what your usability team, or anybody else, see as the benfits of opening new windows. ./tdw john wrote: Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
I think the key word here is choice. you can choose to open it up in a new window if that's your preference. But where it makes surfing impossible , or difficult, then it probably shouldn't be the default. Lisa -Original Message- From: Wayne Godfrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 9:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Okay, I'll stick my neck out here for a list chopping. I personally like opening a new window whenever I'm web surfing. It's something that I got into a habit or doing long ago and far away. I'm still waiting for a big, honking G5 to be sitting under my fingertips, but until that day I'm stuck on a G3 Mac at OS9 on IE5.1.7. I hate the IE interface (actually, I hate all browser interfaces) and I close it down to nothing but the address bar. The back, forward, stop and reload buttons are available in the top left hand corner, but the only one I really use is the reload button. Even with the tab browsers that I've tried, I still end up opening a new tab more often than using the back and forward buttons. This is just the way I ended up traveling the web, I'm sure that others have their own ways as well. I've discussed this with my partners and others and they all like the open a new window concept. I fully understand the other point of view and why the W3C believes what they believe. I've never been ticked off by a site opening a link in a new window, but I sure as heck have been royally unhappy with pop-up, under and through windows as well as poorly coded java script that freeze my machine or web sites that only work in IE for windows. In fact, those are much higher sins (IMHO) than opening a link in a new window... gulp On 10/5/04 7:19 PM, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is a whole plethora of points against opening new windows... I am really curious as to what your usability team, or anybody else, see as the benfits of opening new windows. ./tdw john wrote: Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Wayne Godfrey wrote: Even with the tab browsers that I've tried, I still end up opening a new tab more often than using the back and forward buttons. Key here is *I* [...] ended up opening a new tab. You, the user, made that choice. Not the web author/developer... Patrick _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Thanks Wayne, appreciate the risk ;-) What you are describing though is your personal preference for opening new windows - which I am all in favour for. I prefer tabbed window browsers myself and open alot of tabs - and therein lies my point. Opening my own windows suits me and my workflow for the variety of computers I work on. Having someone else do it is annoying, distruptive, and rude. But I will change my opinion if there is good reason to... especially one related to usability. ./tdw On 6/10/04 12:58 PM, Wayne Godfrey wrote: Okay, I'll stick my neck out here for a list chopping. I personally like opening a new window whenever I'm web surfing. It's something that I got into a habit or doing long ago and far away. I'm still waiting for a big, honking G5 to be sitting under my fingertips, but until that day I'm stuck on a G3 Mac at OS9 on IE5.1.7. I hate the IE interface (actually, I hate all browser interfaces) and I close it down to nothing but the address bar. The back, forward, stop and reload buttons are available in the top left hand corner, but the only one I really use is the reload button. Even with the tab browsers that I've tried, I still end up opening a new tab more often than using the back and forward buttons. This is just the way I ended up traveling the web, I'm sure that others have their own ways as well. I've discussed this with my partners and others and they all like the open a new window concept. I fully understand the other point of view and why the W3C believes what they believe. I've never been ticked off by a site opening a link in a new window, but I sure as heck have been royally unhappy with pop-up, under and through windows as well as poorly coded java script that freeze my machine or web sites that only work in IE for windows. In fact, those are much higher sins (IMHO) than opening a link in a new window... gulp ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
We currently use popup windows to provide an answer/feedback for an activity/questionnaire. At one stage we were using hidden divs and JS to unhide the div when the user hit a submit button, but from a usability standpoint that was bad as it reset the page to the top (and so a screenreader would lose its place). If screenreaders don't like popups either, can anyone suggest an accessable way to unhide content such as answers to a quiz? Ben. There is a whole plethora of points against opening new windows... I am really curious as to what your usability team, or anybody else, see as the benfits of opening new windows. ./tdw ** This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain privileged information or confidential information or both. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender. ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
That's the point that needs to be made. Until the recent push to standards and usability, everyone was just doing what was considered the norm. This journey into standards and accessibility is completely new to me and many others. BUT, there is still a stronghold of folks who think in tables, pop-up windows and bad code. The real challenge for me has been less in the changing of my code and more in the changing of my mind. The standards mode has made me think differently. I never even considered accessibility until I read Zeldman, Cederholm, Myers and the rest. My battle is not here, but with my partners, as I have a site full of links opening in new windows. Arrrg!! Now I have to change their minds and ways! The irony is, that version 2 of our site that currently validates in XHTML Transitional, will actually be ready to go before the tables version 1 is even finished! And that's what I love about the standards process. BTW, I was a little hesitant to join this list, but am I ever glad I did. I've gotten more answers and info in a week and a half than I could have ever imagined. AND the topper, is you all are great people as well. Many, many thanks to everyone out there. w On 10/5/04 8:17 PM, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Wayne, appreciate the risk ;-) What you are describing though is your personal preference for opening new windows - which I am all in favour for. I prefer tabbed window browsers myself and open alot of tabs - and therein lies my point. Opening my own windows suits me and my workflow for the variety of computers I work on. Having someone else do it is annoying, distruptive, and rude. But I will change my opinion if there is good reason to... especially one related to usability. ./tdw On 6/10/04 12:58 PM, Wayne Godfrey wrote: Okay, I'll stick my neck out here for a list chopping. I personally like opening a new window whenever I'm web surfing. It's something that I got into a habit or doing long ago and far away. I'm still waiting for a big, honking G5 to be sitting under my fingertips, but until that day I'm stuck on a G3 Mac at OS9 on IE5.1.7. I hate the IE interface (actually, I hate all browser interfaces) and I close it down to nothing but the address bar. The back, forward, stop and reload buttons are available in the top left hand corner, but the only one I really use is the reload button. Even with the tab browsers that I've tried, I still end up opening a new tab more often than using the back and forward buttons. This is just the way I ended up traveling the web, I'm sure that others have their own ways as well. I've discussed this with my partners and others and they all like the open a new window concept. I fully understand the other point of view and why the W3C believes what they believe. I've never been ticked off by a site opening a link in a new window, but I sure as heck have been royally unhappy with pop-up, under and through windows as well as poorly coded java script that freeze my machine or web sites that only work in IE for windows. In fact, those are much higher sins (IMHO) than opening a link in a new window... gulp ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Apparently I too browse in a very similar manner to Wayne, I open just about every link in a new tab. Back when I used IE, I opened them in a new window (Shift+Click was a wonderful thing, now it's Ctrl+Click) However, I totally disapprove of opening links in a new window for one reason only: If the link opens a new tab/window and I DON'T want one, how do I correct that easily? If the link doesn't open a new tab/window and I want one I can easily modify my actions to make it happen via keyboard shortcuts or the context menu. Cutting and pasting URLs = pain in the bum = annoyed user The only way to get by these days is to assume that the user knows what they want and how to get it, and at least provide a consistent experience for the users who don't know those things Someone previously mentioned those with learning disabilities becoming confused by new windows unexpectedly opening. This also applies to the non-IT savvy amongst us, of whom there are many. A consistent user-experience is absolutely necessary in order to allow these people to cope with the bewilderment they experience simply by being on a computer, let alone the web The argument that users will learn to cope doesn't hold water with me. Some users will, but there will always be some who won't. I work with one guy regularly who is quite smart and very knowledgeable in his own field but for the last ten years I've been trying to teach him how to save to a disk and he still doesn't get it. He is obviously an extreme case, but I work with many others with only slightly better IT capabilities. Anything which reduces confusion for these folks and increases consistency is a good thing! Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
1. p id=q1question/p a href=anwserq1.htmlcheck out the answer to question 1./a and in answerq1: a href=questions.html#q1return to quiz/a 2. write the answers into the document server side when the form is submitted and return it. 3. If the quiz relies on js then write the answer in using the DOM. I'd go with a combination of 2 3. ./tdw On 6/10/04 1:24 PM, Greer, Ben wrote: We currently use popup windows to provide an answer/feedback for an activity/questionnaire. At one stage we were using hidden divs and JS to unhide the div when the user hit a submit button, but from a usability standpoint that was bad as it reset the page to the top (and so a screenreader would lose its place). If screenreaders don't like popups either, can anyone suggest an accessable way to unhide content such as answers to a quiz? Ben. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
A number of the corporations I've work for have the best practice of presenting a page in the same window which notifies the user that they are about to leave the coproration name web site with links that give the user the choice of continuing on to an external website or returning to the page they clicked on the external link from. Many of them also add a disclaimer on this page that lets the user know that the website they are going to content is not controlled by them and therefore they can't gaurantee the content. If they choose to go on, the external site is opened in the same window to avoid confusion of windows lost behind, or not knowing what has happened. After careful thought I have instituted this process during many other contracts since it allows the user to make a decision. Since they are links, not buttons the user can also opt to open the external link in a separate window and return to the the page the external link was on. Though I do not urge clients to use the disclaimer since they're already announcing it's not their website. This is done whether the external link is integrated into text or on a links page, since it's not reasonable to assume that all web users understand that a links page generally means external links. Susan Grossman On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 10:43:30 +1000, Lachlan Hardy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Apparently I too browse in a very similar manner to Wayne, I open just about every link in a new tab. Back when I used IE, I opened them in a new window (Shift+Click was a wonderful thing, now it's Ctrl+Click) However, I totally disapprove of opening links in a new window for one reason only: If the link opens a new tab/window and I DON'T want one, how do I correct that easily? If the link doesn't open a new tab/window and I want one I can easily modify my actions to make it happen via keyboard shortcuts or the context menu. Cutting and pasting URLs = pain in the bum = annoyed user The only way to get by these days is to assume that the user knows what they want and how to get it, and at least provide a consistent experience for the users who don't know those things Someone previously mentioned those with learning disabilities becoming confused by new windows unexpectedly opening. This also applies to the non-IT savvy amongst us, of whom there are many. A consistent user-experience is absolutely necessary in order to allow these people to cope with the bewilderment they experience simply by being on a computer, let alone the web The argument that users will learn to cope doesn't hold water with me. Some users will, but there will always be some who won't. I work with one guy regularly who is quite smart and very knowledgeable in his own field but for the last ten years I've been trying to teach him how to save to a disk and he still doesn't get it. He is obviously an extreme case, but I work with many others with only slightly better IT capabilities. Anything which reduces confusion for these folks and increases consistency is a good thing! Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Susan R. Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Almost too obvious to point out, but we have a web-based app which opens (full-sized) new windows sometimes, and in training, I often have people say what happened to the Back button? It doesn't work! -- if they're running a maximised Windows browser, a new window opening is often indistinguishable from navigation to another page. These are not the kind of users who will look down at the taskbar and notice a second window icon for IE and figure it out for themselves. Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 2110 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Apparently I too browse in a very similar manner to Wayne, I open just about every link in a new tab. Back when I used IE, I opened them in a new window (Shift+Click was a wonderful thing, now it's Ctrl+Click) However, I totally disapprove of opening links in a new window for one reason only: If the link opens a new tab/window and I DON'T want one, how do I correct that easily? If the link doesn't open a new tab/window and I want one I can easily modify my actions to make it happen via keyboard shortcuts or the context menu. Cutting and pasting URLs = pain in the bum = annoyed user The only way to get by these days is to assume that the user knows what they want and how to get it, and at least provide a consistent experience for the users who don't know those things Someone previously mentioned those with learning disabilities becoming confused by new windows unexpectedly opening. This also applies to the non-IT savvy amongst us, of whom there are many. A consistent user-experience is absolutely necessary in order to allow these people to cope with the bewilderment they experience simply by being on a computer, let alone the web The argument that users will learn to cope doesn't hold water with me. Some users will, but there will always be some who won't. I work with one guy regularly who is quite smart and very knowledgeable in his own field but for the last ten years I've been trying to teach him how to save to a disk and he still doesn't get it. He is obviously an extreme case, but I work with many others with only slightly better IT capabilities. Anything which reduces confusion for these folks and increases consistency is a good thing! Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
We currently use popup windows to provide an answer/feedback for an activity/questionnaire. At one stage we were using hidden divs and JS to unhide the div when the user hit a submit button, but from a usability standpoint that was bad as it reset the page to the top (and so a screenreader would lose its place). If screenreaders don't like popups either, can anyone suggest an accessable way to unhide content such as answers to a quiz? Ben. There is a whole plethora of points against opening new windows... I am really curious as to what your usability team, or anybody else, see as the benfits of opening new windows. ./tdw ** This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain privileged information or confidential information or both. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender. ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
The reason you would want to usa a 'popup' is for contextual information. Usually this is in more of a web application scenario than a website per-se. So you have to think more broadly in the term of website than serving documents with content in them (ala 'surfing'). Contextual information has been used for a looong time in user interfaces. Just think of the numerous desktop applications you use on a daily basis and how they use pop-up windows to either prompt for more data, or provide other useful information. If you think about these scenarios, it is when the application needs to present something new to you, but do so in a way that you don't lose your context. You don't want to alter the layout of the 'page' for this, because the content may not be directly related, and it can confuse the user from accomplishing their task. Think of complex scenarios such as when your funneling a user through a shopping cart checkout. In these scenarios, you do not want to distract the user in any way from the task, you don't want to confuse them. However, often you might need to collect data on a particular topic related to the checkout process. This is a fantastic time to use contextual windows. They allow the user to answer the question in a way that they can still 'see' or be aware of what they were originally doing, rather than going to another page and losing context. Now the reason 'it's up to the user' bit doesn't apply is because this is an application. The user is already using the application and they are actively engaged in it. Applications are geared to helping the user accomplish a task. Passive browsing is different, and most of the arguments expressed here are great points for that user context. To use another example, imagine a long article on a webpage. You funneled through the navigation and selected your article you are going to invest time to read. The article has a lot of diagrams. This is a good place to use contextual information. Think of a physical book. Ever been anoyed at having to skip ahead or back to find that diagram they referenced? Your annoyed because you lost your context, you lost your place in the text and had to go somewhere else to find the extra information. In a web article, those same diagrams can 'popup' in small windows, and you can view and close them without having to lose your place. This is not possible by sending the user to a whole new webpage. Trust me, user testing would find the contextual scenario much more pleasing. Also remember dial-up users. Loading and reloading that page takes time, even with 'cache'. Viewing the contextual information is much faster if it appears in it's own window. Now you could use DHTML for this. This is a pretty feasible alternative. But it has drawbacks all its own. The issue is not the mechanism for 'popping up', it's the usability of contextual information that is the issue. Remember there are years of history in user experience design for applications, and those tried and true methods don't fall off the face of the planet with a new medium :) Cheers Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 4:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? There is a whole plethora of points against opening new windows... I am really curious as to what your usability team, or anybody else, see as the benfits of opening new windows. ./tdw john wrote: Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
