t Mahayana say that
Samsara is no different to Nirvana?
Mike
Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
*From: * Bill! ;
*To: * ;
*Subject: * Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
*Sent: * Wed, May 29, 2013 11:45:31 AM
Edgar and Mike,
So..
JM) saying everything is Zen.
Mike
Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
------------
*From: * Bill! ;
*To: * ;
*Subject: * Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
*Sent: * Wed, May 29, 2013 6:44:48 AM
Mike,
I have always believed 'dharma' as used in this 3r
Bill!, This is from Zen. Zen is full of such stories. 'Tell me you
have nothing and I'll take it away from you'. Etc etc etc ad nauseum.
MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Bill!,The reason I posted the description of maya by Nagarjuna was to
show that he recognised the impracticality of just naming all phenomena as
"illusion" and 'that's the end of the story'. If all it takes is to understand
that the material and immaterial are illusory, then why do you still con
Chris,
I agree with your correction. I don't stop my thoughts, as in forcefully stop
them, but I allow them to stop (quiesce)...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:
>
> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Bill! wrote:
>
> >
> > I can will myself to think about the th
On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Bill! wrote:
>
> I can will myself to think about the things I want to think about. There
> are also a lot of times I think about things spontaneously and even
> involuntarily. I can halt my thinking. That's what zazen/shikantaza is.
>
Perhaps my distinction
2013, at 12:49 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>> >
>> > > Edgar, Bill!,
>> > >
>> > > I don't have much invested in this topic, but just to clarify a few
>> things I'd like your feedback.
>> > > When we make our vows at every sit
!,
> > > >
> > > > I don't have much invested in this topic, but just to clarify a few
> > things I'd like your feedback.
> > > > When we make our vows at every sit, one of those vows is "The dharmas
> > are numberless, I vow to master them
Mike,
I've never heard that before, but could kind of see what it means. However at
some point I do start discounting Buddhist doctrine and dogma. I've told you
that before. I think Buddhist teachings are useful up to a point, as a general
metaphor which tries to explain all these things, bu
Mike,
I could accept the word 'distortions'. To me as you've explained it below
'distortions' seems to carry the same meaning for me as the term
'perceptions'. The important part for me is that they are clearly
distinguished from experience. For now I will continue to use the word
'illusio
Edgar,
Yet, it's standard ignorant cognition. And has nothing to do with Zen.
You heard it here Second.
Your teachers told you this First.
Not that they are proud of you. ;-)
...deceased as they are, and not aware of your mis-representing even the
long-hand (non-practicing), words-only teac
Bill!,
Rest!
Wishes,
--Joe
> "Bill!" wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm getting very, very weary of all this.
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on
ead to actions that are either wholesome or unwholesome.
Mike
Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
From: Edgar Owen ;
To: ;
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 11:17:37 AM
Mike,
Correct.
As I've said over and over, illusio
from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
________
From: Bill! ;
To: ;
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 10:14:01 AM
Mike,
I'm getting very, very weary of all this.
I could go through your quote below phrase by phrase, line by line to tell
> numberless, I vow to master them". Applying that to this topic, for me,
> > > means that a thought (a dharma) is real even if the object of that
> > > thought isn't. For example, if I said Edgar is a 20 year old member of a
> > > famous boy band, then the
ack.
> > > When we make our vows at every sit, one of those vows is "The dharmas
> are numberless, I vow to master them". Applying that to this topic, for me,
> means that a thought (a dharma) is real even if the object of that thought
> isn't. For example, if I said E
There is also a translation or interpretation of Dharma Gate as being a
particular type of path. One might say I have entered the way by the dharma
gate of pain, and now seek to enter the dharma gate of formal lay
training. Or one travels through the dharma gate of rearing small
children. The dha
Edgar,It makes no difference at all. Whether a thought is real
or non-real, what is important is not attaching to that thought and the
sensation of craving/aversion it raises.MikeSent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPad
really solid and are impermanent). For me, it's more a question of how we
> recognise that thoughts lead to actions that are either wholesome or
> unwholesome.
>
> Mike
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>
> From: Edgar Owen ;
> To: ;
>
Bill!,All dualities, contradictions and paradoxes are reconciled in
buddhahood, so I don't see a problem. Doesn't Mahayana say that Samsara is no
different to Nirvana?MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Edgar,To be honest, whether you are right or wrong makes no
difference to my practice. Many people realise that the world 'out there' is
just a process of the brain created in the head. BUT that doesn't necessarily
lead them to living an awakened life (just as a scientist specialising quantum
m
Bill!,I have no stake in this topic at all because I don't see the
problem with thoughts as being whether they are illusory or not, but rather
that the following of them leads to craving/aversion and thus suffering. The 20
year old Edgar is a falsehood and he clearly isn't real, but the the thou
then the thought is real (a dharma) *even though* it is a delusional
> > thought.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> >
> > From: Edgar Owen ;
> > To: ;
> > Subject: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
> > Sent: Wed,
at a thought (a dharma) is real even if the object of that thought isn't.
> For example, if I said Edgar is a 20 year old member of a famous boy band,
> then the thought is real (a dharma) *even though* it is a delusional thought.
>
> Mike
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail
Mike,
I'm getting very, very weary of all this.
I could go through your quote below phrase by phrase, line by line to tell you
why I think it is either wrong or why you are misinterpreting it, but what good
would that do? If you and Edgar won't or can't recognize the difference
between though
Bill!,Just looked up a definition of 'dharma', too.
Buddhism.about.comDefinition:Dharma in both Hinduism and
Buddhism refers to the principle or law that orders the universe. In Buddhism,
the word in particular points to the law of karma and rebirth.Because
this law was recognized and formulat
Mike,
I never have said everything is illusory. Experience (Buddha Nature) is not
illusory.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> Bill!,I also meant to add that saying everything is illusory is
> just as problematic as Edgar's (and JMJM) saying everything is
>
Mike,
'Dharma' does have many meanings. I looked it up at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma and one of the meaning in Buddhist
Phenomenology is what you've said, however the most common meaning in Buddhism
is Buddha's teachings.
Desire is attachment. The bottom line is you are attached to
bill... good explanation..i get it...merle
Mike,
I have always believed 'dharma' as used in this 3rd part of the Bodhisattva Vow
refers to 'the teachings of Buddha'. I agree that teachings are thoughts, so I
do agree the use of the term 'dharma' in this vow refers to thoughts.
The
Bill!,I also meant to add that saying everything is illusory is just
as problematic as Edgar's (and JMJM) saying everything is
Zen.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Bill!,I agree with most of what you say, but I think you give a
limited account of what 'dharma' means. The Dharma is, of course, the main body
of Buddha's teaching as well as universal law. But 'dharmas' also have another
meaning related to how reality manifests (in this case - thoughts). There
Mike,
I have always believed 'dharma' as used in this 3rd part of the Bodhisattva Vow
refers to 'the teachings of Buddha'. I agree that teachings are thoughts, so I
do agree the use of the term 'dharma' in this vow refers to thoughts.
The 1st part of that vow refers to 'sentient beings'. The
Edgar, Bill!,I don't have much invested in this topic, but just to
clarify a few things I'd like your feedback.When we make our vows at every
sit, one of those vows is "The dharmas are numberless, I vow to master them".
Applying that to this topic, for me, means that a thought (a dharma) is real
Merle,
Yes, this is a key statement in the article, but let's wait until Edgar
responds to let us know why he thinks the article he posted supports his
position and presumably thinks it does not support mine.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
> "The truth of th
"The truth of the world is something which can only be experienced by removing
the identity (ego)."
Edgar
Bill,
Philosophy and illusion
[edit]
Just like many other words often used in a different sense in spirituality the
word "illusion" is used to denote different aspects in Hindu Philosophy (Maya).
Many Monist philosophies clearly demarcate illusion from truth and falsehood.
As per Hindu advait
mike..we are part and parcel of nature..what is the point you are making...?
merle
Merle,
Buddhism would say - what will you do if the road doesn't rise up to meet you?
Or the wind is head-on and the sun isn't warm on your face? Better to rely on
ourselves than a god.
Mike (who is cele
Dear All,
My I share the following about compassion which was discussed
extensively in this forum recently?
Compassion is our nature, which is embedded in everyone of us. It is one
of the many instincts, or self nature, or Buddha nature, such as
oneness, equality and awareness, while they are
Karin,
Consciousness does not require not self consciousness. Otherwise Zen
masters who have realized that the self is an illusion and a
cognitive construct and given up the notion of self would not be
conscious. Insects have already figured that out.
Edgar
On Dec 21, 2008, at 10:25 P
e directly experienced.
...Bill!
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 7:51 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature?
Bill,
Just constantly repeating X=X tells us nothing about the truth of
Zen. It
In my next life as an ant, I will organize a struggle against the oppressing
ant class, to set up a proletarian dictatorship, so that both the princess and
the worker will be saved.
Anthony
--- On Mon, 22/12/08, mike brown wrote:
From: mike brown
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature?
To: Zen_Forum
x27;gung' is
correct in a Chinese way. 'Kung' probably in a French way. Doesn't the Bible
say God created different languages so people fight each other?
Regards,
Anthony
--- On Mon, 22/12/08, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Natu
Karin,
You do realize, don't you, that the discarding of self-awareness is what zen
is all about?
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Karin Machado
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 10:26 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature?
> I agree that Joju certainly did directly address the
question.>
Mojo Jojo? He used to be on the Powerpuff Girls! Really a great
character. He knew how to turn a phrase!
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
reading!
Karin Machado
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 22 December, 2008, 2:25 PM
Edgar Owen All living organisms have intelligence necessary to
survive within their particular environments. Otherwise they would have become
extinct.>
Pure
Edgar Owen All living organisms have intelligence necessary to survive within
their particular environments. Otherwise they would have become extinct.>
Pure genetic programming which is the mindless robotic survival instinct of
insects does NOT translate to sentient being.
Insects are not self
Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature?
Bill,
Just constantly repeating X=X tells us nothing about the truth of Zen. It
does not address the monk's question. Joju addressed the question by
invoking the answer, not stating a tautology.
Edgar
On Dec 21, 2008, at 4:39 PM, wr
nday, December 21, 2008 8:31 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature?
Bill and Anthony,
You guys' confusion stems from your lack of understanding that Mu =
Buddha
nature. Joju was simply invoking Buddha nature in response to the
question
of whether a dog has it.
Edgar
On Dec 21,
gar Owen
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 8:31 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature?
Bill and Anthony,
You guys' confusion stems from your lack of understanding that Mu = Buddha
nature. Joju was simply invoking Buddha nature in response to the question
of whether a dog
ecember 21, 2008 8:46 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature?
From: Edgar Owen
They are so dumb. Everyone knows insects are not sentient beings.
__ NOD32 3709 (20081220) Information __
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://ww
ecember 21, 2008 8:46 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature?
From: Edgar Owen
They are so dumb. Everyone knows insects are not sentient beings.
__ NOD32 3709 (20081220) Information __
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://ww
all zazen for me.
...Bill!
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 10:21 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Nature?
Bill,
I agree that at least 'mu' means 'no' or 'wh
The definition of a sentient being is whether it will run when under the threat
of being killed, and whether it pursues happiness. Insects have both these
characters, so they are sentient beings.
--- On Sun, 21/12/08, Karin Machado wrote:
From: Karin Machado
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature?
To
Edgar,
I will consider if I will treat your words as a koan.
Anthony
--- On Sun, 21/12/08, Edgar Owen wrote:
From: Edgar Owen
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 21 December, 2008, 9:30 PM
Bill and Anthony,
You guys' confusion stems from your
g more serious, did you read any pre-mahayana literature
that mentions 'Buddha nature'? I have not in my limited reading.
Regards,
Anthony
--- On Sun, 21/12/08, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Nature?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date:
Karin,
Insects are sentient. They are conscious of their environment and
experience pain and pleasure. They also engage in some degree of
abstract thought, planning and can remember details of their
environments. This is known to anyone who observes nature closely.
E.g. parasitic wasps wi
From: Edgar Owen
They are so dumb. Everyone knows insects are not sentient beings.
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go t
nd is
meeting Joju and all the other Buddhas and teachers face-to-face.
That No Mind is Buddha Nature.
...Bill!
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 4:34 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen]
an initial breakthrough. That No
Mind is meeting Joju and all the other Buddhas and teachers face-to-face. That
No Mind is Buddha Nature.
...Bill!
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 4:34 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogr
.Bill!
From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 3:42 PM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: [Zen] Nature?
Edgar,
Your missed the point. On the one hand, everything has Buddha nature (your word
'innate&#
I am working now and just fed the ducks. there is the odor of death outside i
am afraid a cat killed one of the ducks.
--Original Message--
From: Jody W. Ianuzzi
To:
Date: Sat, Dec 20, 2008 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature?
I think comments like God ranking animals by how much soul
20, 2008 3:42 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Nature?
Edgar,
Your missed the point. On the one hand, everything has Buddha nature (your word
'innate' is correct). On the other, you should not attach to that idea. That is
why Bill Smart's great grand father Zhao
I think comments like God ranking animals by how much soul they have should
just roll like water off a duck's back.
JODY
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visi
Anthony,
Zen master says "Quack, Quack, Quack"
Edgar
On Dec 20, 2008, at 3:41 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:
Edgar,
Your missed the point. On the one hand, everything has Buddha
nature (your word 'innate' is correct). On the other, you should
not attach to that idea. That is why Bill Smart's g
Edgar,
Your missed the point. On the one hand, everything has Buddha nature (your word
'innate' is correct). On the other, you should not attach to that idea.. That
is why Bill Smart's great grand father Zhaozhou zen master says, 'no', when
asked 'does a dog have Buddha nature?'.
Anthony
--
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