Which is the monkey-mind?
Jo
--- On Fri, 10/24/08, Karin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Karin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, October 24, 2008, 3:29 PM
Jo Rose <> I can sort of understand what you'
Jo Rose <> I can sort of understand what you're saying about the Tao
thing, but I'm still floundering>
That is your monkey-mind. Stop monkeying around. Then again, you might
be a man. That is like a dirty monkey-mind.
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 23 October, 2008 6:58:05
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality
>
>
> Hi Mike again,
>
> Yes San Sebastian is a very pretty elegant city. Sorry you
couldn't
> translate the page. Just to let y
ourself and Bill, and to
some extent Anthony, btw
--- On Wed, 10/15/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 12:27 PM
Mike,
We don't. Even a z
a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 October, 2008 11:46:55
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality
>
>
> Hi Mike;
>
> Thanks for your views.
>
> You've asked where I am from.
> I'm originally from San Sebastian, Capital
rom, Mayka?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message
> From: Mayka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 9:38:38
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality
>
>
> Thanks Mike to summarise so clearly what is the
Edgar,
I asked you if your concept of 'self' was real or an illusion.
You answered:
>BTW to answer your question I have no concept of self.
>If I had one it would be an illusion, though a consistent one for sure!
I find that a queer response, or at an unexpected one. First of all you
seem to h
the Plummer thinks...Bill!
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:00 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality, perception, reality, consciousness, etc, etc
Bill,
Strange, I thought you believed every
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> Maybe you say they are illusory, but you still follow and live
> according to the rules of causality 24/7 and have been all your
life,
> except perhaps when sitting in zazen. Why is that if they aren't
> v
gt; >
> > - Original Message
> > From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 9:21:41
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> >
> > That sounds li
m
JUST THIS! is 'karma' (a useful, but ultimately an illusionary idea)
extinguished. My apologises if I've misrepresented anyone's argument.
>
> Mike.
>
>
>
> - Original Message
> From: Mayka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Zen_Forum@
Why Great Minds Can't Grasp Consciousness
By Ker Than, LiveScience Staff Writer
http://www.livescience.com/health/050808_human_consciousness.html
At a physics meeting last October, Nobel laureate David Gross outlined
25 questions in science that he thought physics might help answer.
Nestled among
observer (such as causality) is an
illusion.
Is your concept of 'self' real or an illusion?
...Bill!
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 12:59 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Cau
as an observer (such as causality) is an illusion.
Is your concept of 'self' real or an illusion?
...Bill!
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 12:59 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen]
Hi Edgar,
I've been saying it since I began posting here.. 5 years ago!
Mike
- Original Message
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 10:33:25
Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality
Yes, but I said it before you did!
:-)
Edgar
Hi Edgar,
Good to see you've finally come around to my way of thinking then :)
Mike.
- Original Message
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 9:21:41
Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality
Hi Mike,
That sounds like
Hi Edgar,
My comment is written below:
>What nonsense! That experience suggests there is an
objective world (the eggplant) and that the cognitive >representation of
that world is illusion. Only if the monk went back again later and it
wasn't an eggplant but a >squashed frog and kept changing ever
ogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 21:27:58
Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality
Mike,
We don't. Even a zen master still places one foot in front of the other. He
just realizes he's treading on nonexistence. Thus the energy rushes in through
the soles of his feet.
If I remember co
y. Like in Tibetan Buddhism, in the
beginning, you 'visualize' wrathful deities, eventually, they become as real as
you can face and not be scared to death. C'est la zen.
Regards,
Anthony
--- On Thu, 16/10/08, Karin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Karin [EMAIL PROTECTE
Chris,
Glad to hear we are of one mind!
Best,
Edgar
On Oct 15, 2008, at 3:47 PM, cid830 wrote:
Edgar,
Brilliant! How can one argue with that? Everyone may have their own
perception of reality. That perception itself is the illusion. I
think you have really topped off your arguement. I have
Hi Chris,
I'm essentially in agreement with your post and thanks for letting us
know you do find the discussion on topic.
The world of phenomena is consistently causal - at least for sane
people. But we do ultimately have to realize that that world is
illusory in the sense that it is a pr
Edgar,
Brilliant! How can one argue with that? Everyone may have their own
perception of reality. That perception itself is the illusion. I
think you have really topped off your arguement. I have to say
though, I was preparing a post very similar to this, you just beat
me to the punch!
Late
Anthony Wu <> There is a flaw in the story. The Buddhist monk should
read Jainist monk. Stepping on a frog unwittingly is not considered as
breaking a buddhist precept>
Get your story straight! You sound like a real faker! First you fake
your satori, now you fake a story, what next? fake orgasm
Edgar,
I have to admit, I was pulling for you on this one. Although I
may not have grasped the full meaning of all of the posts, It seems
to me the jist of it was full of zen. Especially zen buddhism where
we acknowledge that we are here as a result of causality. Don't we?
We may not try
Margie (and Bill),
What nonsense! That experience suggests there is an objective world
(the eggplant) and that the cognitive representation of that world is
illusion. Only if the monk went back again later and it wasn't an
eggplant but a squashed frog and kept changing every time he looked
What can I say...I took a shot...
Un-dead frogs and pissed-off eggplants - very zen!
Margie (roloro1557)
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...but the next night he dreamed that hundreds of eggplants
> came to him demanding his life, and they were REALLY PISSED!
Bill,
Your extension can be included in the zen literature.
Regards,
Anthony
--- On Wed, 15/10/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Causality, perception, reality, consciousness, etc, etc
To: Zen_Forum@yah
Margie,
There is a flaw in the story. The Buddhist monk should read Jainist monk.
Stepping on a frog unwittingly is not considered as breaking a buddhist
precept, But in Jain, it does.
You see, Buddhism is more liberal.
Regards,
Anthony
--- On Wed, 15/10/08, roloro1557 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
...but the next night he dreamed that hundreds of eggplants came to him
demanding his life, and they were REALLY PISSED!
...Bill!
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of roloro1557
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 9:45 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen
Hi Bill,
I have no essential disagreement with your statements below as you do
seem to agree that you find it useful to follow the rules of
causality when dealing with other people. Thus you do agree that
those rules govern the realm of illusion, which of course is proven
by your many suc
e.
- Original Message
From: Mayka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 15:19:42
Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality
Hi Mike again;
You go beyond "rules" through the energy of mindfulness which will
lead you to the realization of
,
>
> Simple question: if there are rules - how do we go beyond them?
>
>
> Mike.
>
>
> - Original Message
> From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 8:03:44
> Subject: Re: [Zen] C
Hi Edgar,
Simple question: if there are rules - how do we go beyond them?
Mike.
- Original Message
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 8:03:44
Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality
Bill,
Maybe you say they are illusor
Edgar,
My responses are embedded below:
>Maybe you say they are illusory, but you still follow and live according
>to the rules of causality 24/7 and have been all your life, except perhaps
>when sitting in zazen. Why is that if they aren't valid rules?
Events are illusory. Relationships betwee
who has never been hit by a
bus'. What more is there to say?
For no reason...Bill!
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 7:42 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality
Hi Bill,
.Bill!
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 8:32 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality
Bill,
I'm in general agreement close enough to continue.
Bill,
I'm in general agreement close enough to continue. I agree with you
that in some sense both the hammer smashing your toe and the pain in
your toe are illusions, but my point is that they are consistently
related. One follows inevitably upon the other in all normal
circumstances. Tha
Edgar,
Thanks for your response, although it's far from satisfying for me. I could
go on with this discussion from the exchanges below, but I think we've
started in the middle and both have a lot of assumptions that we may not
fully share. If we're going to have a discussion on causality, and I
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