RE: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

A message from Mahakasyapa is not a message from you.

Don’t wait until you're dead.  Send us a message now!  Speak!  Show us your 
Buddha Nature!

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony 
Wu
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 5:46 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

Edgar,
 
You are still a nihilist, to deny 'life after death' (against Dr Raymond 
Moody). In nderf, there are experiences where dead people (not just sleeping, 
as the pulse and brain function have stopped) can 'see' and 'hear' something 
going on in the room and 'beyond'. So the physician concluded the consciousness 
must have left the body. Please note this is not religious discussion, it is 
science.
 
Years ago, your fellow countryman Conan Doyle joined a club that was able to 
'call' back deceased people. He was told the dead goes to a place depending on 
what deed they do when alive. OK, you can consider is an extension of Sherlock 
Holmes.
 
I will have Mahakasyapa send you a message, after I die, to prove you are wrong.
 
regards,
Anthony

--- On Fri, 10/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 10 October, 2008, 12:23 AM
Anthony, 

Is their consciousness in deep sleep, when you are on the operating table? Then 
why do you expect it after death?

BTW do you know how consciousness stops in deep sleep? It's easy, the brain's 
internal sense of the passage of time is temporarily shut off.

I accept your challenge to prove there is not personal consciousness after 
death, but you have to wait until after you die to get my proof!
:-)

Edgar



On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:



I agree the question of consciousness surving the body or not is irrelevant to 
zen. So is zen master Huineng's temporary hunting job. I just challene Edgar to 
prove me wrong in regard to the idea.
 
regards,
Anthony

--- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com> wrote:
From: roloro1557 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 12:18 PM
Yes, I agree with Bill, why all the interest in life after death?

Death is inevitable, no one escapes it.

Whether there is or is not life after death is not in our hands,
either way there's nothing we can do about it.

If there's not we won't know it. If there is we will. Seems to me
that's all there is to it.

Maybe I'm being overly simplistic.. .
Margie (roloro1557)

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps..com, <[EMAIL PROTECTED] ...> wrote:
> Al and Edgar,
> 
> With all due respect I fail to see the relevance of this 
> discussion of whether consciousness survives the death of 
> the body. Who cares? We only have today, right now. 
> Tomorrow will never exist, much less death.
> 
> Don't take this post as a request for you to stop your 
> discussion, but I'd like to know why you have such an 
> interest in this topic.


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Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Anthony Wu]

Edgar,
 
You are still a nihilist, to deny 'life after death' (against Dr Raymond 
Moody). In nderf, there are experiences where dead people (not just sleeping, 
as the pulse and brain function have stopped) can 'see' and 'hear' something 
going on in the room and 'beyond'. So the physician concluded the consciousness 
must have left the body. Please note this is not religious discussion, it is 
science.
 
Years ago, your fellow countryman Conan Doyle joined a club that was able to 
'call' back deceased people. He was told the dead goes to a place depending on 
what deed they do when alive. OK, you can consider is an extension of Sherlock 
Holmes.
 
I will have Mahakasyapa send you a message, after I die, to prove you are wrong.
 
regards,
Anthony

--- On Fri, 10/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 10 October, 2008, 12:23 AM






Anthony,


Is their consciousness in deep sleep, when you are on the operating table? Then 
why do you expect it after death?


BTW do you know how consciousness stops in deep sleep? It's easy, the brain's 
internal sense of the passage of time is temporarily shut off.


I accept your challenge to prove there is not personal consciousness after 
death, but you have to wait until after you die to get my proof!
:-)


Edgar







On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:











I agree the question of consciousness surving the body or not is irrelevant to 
zen. So is zen master Huineng's temporary hunting job. I just challene Edgar to 
prove me wrong in regard to the idea.
 
regards,
Anthony

--- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com> wrote:

From: roloro1557 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 12:18 PM




Yes, I agree with Bill, why all the interest in life after death?

Death is inevitable, no one escapes it.

Whether there is or is not life after death is not in our hands,
either way there's nothing we can do about it.

If there's not we won't know it. If there is we will. Seems to me
that's all there is to it.

Maybe I'm being overly simplistic.. .
Margie (roloro1557)

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps..com, <[EMAIL PROTECTED] ..> wrote:
> Al and Edgar,
> 
> With all due respect I fail to see the relevance of this 
> discussion of whether consciousness survives the death of 
> the body. Who cares? We only have today, right now. 
> Tomorrow will never exist, much less death.
> 
> Don't take this post as a request for you to stop your 
> discussion, but I'd like to know why you have such an 
> interest in this topic.




Get your new Email address! 
Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does!


 














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Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Edgar Owen]

Anthony,

Is their consciousness in deep sleep, when you are on the operating  
table? Then why do you expect it after death?


BTW do you know how consciousness stops in deep sleep? It's easy, the  
brain's internal sense of the passage of time is temporarily shut off.


I accept your challenge to prove there is not personal consciousness  
after death, but you have to wait until after you die to get my proof!

:-)

Edgar



On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:



I agree the question of consciousness surving the body or not is  
irrelevant to zen. So is zen master Huineng's temporary hunting  
job. I just challene Edgar to prove me wrong in regard to the idea.


regards,
Anthony

--- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: roloro1557 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 12:18 PM

Yes, I agree with Bill, why all the interest in life after death?

Death is inevitable, no one escapes it.

Whether there is or is not life after death is not in our hands,
either way there's nothing we can do about it.

If there's not we won't know it. If there is we will. Seems to me
that's all there is to it.

Maybe I'm being overly simplistic.. .
Margie (roloro1557)

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps..com, <[EMAIL PROTECTED] ..> wrote:
> Al and Edgar,
>
> With all due respect I fail to see the relevance of this
> discussion of whether consciousness survives the death of
> the body. Who cares? We only have today, right now.
> Tomorrow will never exist, much less death.
>
> Don't take this post as a request for you to stop your
> discussion, but I'd like to know why you have such an
> interest in this topic.


Get your new Email address!
Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does!

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Anthony Wu]

I agree the question of consciousness surving the body or not is irrelevant to 
zen. So is zen master Huineng's temporary hunting job. I just challene Edgar to 
prove me wrong in regard to the idea.
 
regards,
Anthony

--- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: roloro1557 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 12:18 PM






Yes, I agree with Bill, why all the interest in life after death?

Death is inevitable, no one escapes it.

Whether there is or is not life after death is not in our hands,
either way there's nothing we can do about it.

If there's not we won't know it. If there is we will. Seems to me
that's all there is to it.

Maybe I'm being overly simplistic.. .
Margie (roloro1557)

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, <[EMAIL PROTECTED] ..> wrote:
> Al and Edgar,
> 
> With all due respect I fail to see the relevance of this 
> discussion of whether consciousness survives the death of 
> the body. Who cares? We only have today, right now. 
> Tomorrow will never exist, much less death.
> 
> Don't take this post as a request for you to stop your 
> discussion, but I'd like to know why you have such an 
> interest in this topic.

 














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Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does!
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Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Edgar Owen]

Hi Bill,

I don't, and rarely think about death. Just responding to Anthony who  
I believe brought it up. I do however think a proper understanding of  
consciousness is important on the path to Zen, and death helps us  
understand the true nature of consciousness.


Edgar



On Oct 8, 2008, at 8:15 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Al and Edgar,

With all due respect I fail to see the relevance of this discussion  
of whether consciousness survives the death of the body. Who cares?  
We only have today, right now. Tomorrow will never exist, much less  
death.


Don't take this post as a request for you to stop your discussion,  
but I'd like to know why you have such an interest in this topic.


Thanks...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
On Behalf Of Anthony Wu

Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 4:59 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

Edgar,

We need to talk more to gradually understand each other. As regards  
consciousness surviving the body, please read nderf.org for  
scientific evidence.


Regards,
Anthony

--- On Wed, 8/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 8 October, 2008, 8:00 AM
Anthony,

I don't consider myself a nihilist, though I can see how nihilists  
might consider me as such. I don't think nihilism has concepts of  
Zen, it just might accept all the negatives of Zen though. Also I  
don't think there is any scientific conclusion that consciousness  
survives the body at all, just the opposite.


Edgar

On Oct 7, 2008, at 6:42 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

Hi Edgar,

That is why I assume you are a nihilist. Wait a moment. Doctors  
(non-religious) have concluded consciousness survives the body.  
Though they cannot prove what comes after death. That is a  
scientific conclusion so far.


Regards,
Anthony

--- On Tue, 7/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Tuesday, 7 October, 2008, 10:38 PM
Hi Anthony,

I understand that Tibetans believe that Bardo occurs after death,  
but I think it's an nde instead since I don't believe in 'after  
death'. As I implied in my previous post nde's don't prove  
consciousness persists after death, only that the consciousness  
(the brain) takes a while to gradually shut down after the rest of  
the body does. Death is not an instantaneous occurrence, it  
proceeds from the outside in towards the center of consciousness  
where a tiny flame lingers for awhile before finally going out.


This was written about by Kazantzakis at the end of 'The Odyssey, A  
Modern Sequel' BTW.


Gosh, I'm almost depressing myself here! :-)

Edgar

On Oct 6, 2008, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:

Hi Edgar,

Are you a materialist or nihilist? I hope you are right. If I come  
to nothing after death. That is perfect. What if the Tibetan  
Buddhism is right and I go through a lot of horrible things in the  
bardo period. Please note the bardo appears after death, while nde  
occurs when still alive, or half dead. The latter only has a  
glimpse of the other world and then comes back to earth. That is  
why nders mainly have bliss. Few have hell. If you read nde  
literature, the researchers has consensus that consciousness  
survive the body.

Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 7:15 AM
Hi Anthony,

Just punch old Mahakasyapa in the nose when you meet him. He will  
disappear along with the rest of them. All those Bardo characters  
are illusion. Read the Tibetan Book of the Dead for instructions on  
what to do after you die. Then be prepared for something totally  
different. In any case the Bardo realm is not when you are  
completely dead, but just during the gradual process of death when  
time slows as the external layers of your body shut down and your  
consciousness gradually retreats towards the center of your brain.  
After that which may seem a long time but is not really very long  
in external time there is not even nothing so all problems will be  
over.


Anyway glad to see I am cheering you up already!
:-)

Edgar

On Oct 5, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

Edgar,

I would like to send you an email after I die, but Mahakasyapa says  
it is unlikely you will receive one. If I am enjoying life in  
heaven, I would not care about the earth because all things there  
are dirty, not worth even thinking about. If I am suffering in  
hell, I will not be capable of sending a message,

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[roloro1557]

Yes, I agree with Bill, why all the interest in life after death?

Death is inevitable, no one escapes it.

Whether there is or is not life after death is not in our hands,
either way there's nothing we can do about it.

If there's not we won't know it. If there is we will. Seems to me
that's all there is to it.

Maybe I'm being overly simplistic...
Margie (roloro1557)



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Al and Edgar,
> 
> With all due respect I fail to see the relevance of this 
> discussion of whether consciousness survives the death of 
> the body.  Who cares?  We only have today, right now.  
> Tomorrow will never exist, much less death.
> 
> Don't take this post as a request for you to stop your 
> discussion, but I'd like to know why you have such an 
> interest in this topic.






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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RE: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[BillSmart]

Al and Edgar,

With all due respect I fail to see the relevance of this discussion of whether 
consciousness survives the death of the body.  Who cares?  We only have today, 
right now.  Tomorrow will never exist, much less death.

Don't take this post as a request for you to stop your discussion, but I'd like 
to know why you have such an interest in this topic.

Thanks...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony 
Wu
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 4:59 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

Edgar,
 
We need to talk more to gradually understand each other. As regards 
consciousness surviving the body, please read nderf.org for scientific evidence.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Wed, 8/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 8 October, 2008, 8:00 AM
Anthony, 

I don't consider myself a nihilist, though I can see how nihilists might 
consider me as such. I don't think nihilism has concepts of Zen, it just might 
accept all the negatives of Zen though. Also I don't think there is any 
scientific conclusion that consciousness survives the body at all, just the 
opposite.

Edgar


On Oct 7, 2008, at 6:42 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Hi Edgar,
 
That is why I assume you are a nihilist. Wait a moment. Doctors (non-religious) 
have concluded consciousness survives the body. Though they cannot prove what 
comes after death. That is a scientific conclusion so far.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Tue, 7/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Tuesday, 7 October, 2008, 10:38 PM
Hi Anthony, 

I understand that Tibetans believe that Bardo occurs after death, but I think 
it's an nde instead since I don't believe in 'after death'. As I implied in my 
previous post nde's don't prove consciousness persists after death, only that 
the consciousness (the brain) takes a while to gradually shut down after the 
rest of the body does. Death is not an instantaneous occurrence, it proceeds 
from the outside in towards the center of consciousness where a tiny flame 
lingers for awhile before finally going out.

This was written about by Kazantzakis at the end of 'The Odyssey, A Modern 
Sequel' BTW.

Gosh, I'm almost depressing myself here! :-)

Edgar



On Oct 6, 2008, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Hi Edgar,
 
Are you a materialist or nihilist? I hope you are right. If I come to nothing 
after death. That is perfect. What if the Tibetan Buddhism is right and I go 
through a lot of horrible things in the bardo period. Please note the bardo 
appears after death, while nde occurs when still alive, or half dead. The 
latter only has a glimpse of the other world and then comes back to earth. That 
is why nders mainly have bliss. Few have hell. If you read nde literature, the 
researchers has consensus that consciousness survive the body.
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 7:15 AM
Hi Anthony, 

Just punch old Mahakasyapa in the nose when you meet him. He will disappear 
along with the rest of them. All those Bardo characters are illusion. Read the 
Tibetan Book of the Dead for instructions on what to do after you die. Then be 
prepared for something totally different. In any case the Bardo realm is not 
when you are completely dead, but just during the gradual process of death when 
time slows as the external layers of your body shut down and your consciousness 
gradually retreats towards the center of your brain. After that which may seem 
a long time but is not really very long in external time there is not even 
nothing so all problems will be over.

Anyway glad to see I am cheering you up already!
:-)

Edgar



On Oct 5, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Edgar,
 
I would like to send you an email after I die, but Mahakasyapa says it is 
unlikely you will receive one. If I am enjoying life in heaven, I would not 
care about the earth because all things there are dirty, not worth even 
thinking about. If I am suffering in hell, I will not be capable of sending a 
message, because the devil who tortures me will not allow it. In either case, 
you will be receive an email. Sorry.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 6:45 AM
Anthony, 

I w

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Anthony Wu]

Edgar,
 
We need to talk more to gradually understand each other. As regards 
consciousness surviving the body, please read nderf.org for scientific evidence.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Wed, 8/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 8 October, 2008, 8:00 AM






Anthony,


I don't consider myself a nihilist, though I can see how nihilists might 
consider me as such. I don't think nihilism has concepts of Zen, it just might 
accept all the negatives of Zen though. Also I don't think there is any 
scientific conclusion that consciousness survives the body at all, just the 
opposite.


Edgar





On Oct 7, 2008, at 6:42 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:











Hi Edgar,
 
That is why I assume you are a nihilist. Wait a moment. Doctors (non-religious) 
have concluded consciousness survives the body. Though they cannot prove what 
comes after death. That is a scientific conclusion so far.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Tue, 7/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Tuesday, 7 October, 2008, 10:38 PM




Hi Anthony,


I understand that Tibetans believe that Bardo occurs after death, but I think 
it's an nde instead since I don't believe in 'after death'. As I implied in my 
previous post nde's don't prove consciousness persists after death, only that 
the consciousness (the brain) takes a while to gradually shut down after the 
rest of the body does. Death is not an instantaneous occurrence, it proceeds 
from the outside in towards the center of consciousness where a tiny flame 
lingers for awhile before finally going out.


This was written about by Kazantzakis at the end of 'The Odyssey, A Modern 
Sequel' BTW.


Gosh, I'm almost depressing myself here! :-)


Edgar







On Oct 6, 2008, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:











Hi Edgar,
 
Are you a materialist or nihilist? I hope you are right. If I come to nothing 
after death. That is perfect. What if the Tibetan Buddhism is right and I go 
through a lot of horrible things in the bardo period. Please note the bardo 
appears after death, while nde occurs when still alive, or half dead. The 
latter only has a glimpse of the other world and then comes back to earth. That 
is why nders mainly have bliss. Few have hell. If you read nde literature, the 
researchers has consensus that consciousness survive the body..
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 7:15 AM




Hi Anthony,


Just punch old Mahakasyapa in the nose when you meet him. He will disappear 
along with the rest of them. All those Bardo characters are illusion. Read the 
Tibetan Book of the Dead for instructions on what to do after you die. Then be 
prepared for something totally different. In any case the Bardo realm is not 
when you are completely dead, but just during the gradual process of death when 
time slows as the external layers of your body shut down and your consciousness 
gradually retreats towards the center of your brain. After that which may seem 
a long time but is not really very long in external time there is not even 
nothing so all problems will be over.


Anyway glad to see I am cheering you up already!
:-)


Edgar







On Oct 5, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:











Edgar,
 
I would like to send you an email after I die, but Mahakasyapa says it is 
unlikely you will receive one. If I am enjoying life in heaven, I would not 
care about the earth because all things there are dirty, not worth even 
thinking about. If I am suffering in hell, I will not be capable of sending a 
message, because the devil who tortures me will not allow it. In either case, 
you will be receive an email. Sorry.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 6:45 AM




Anthony,


I wouldn't worry about suffering after death. Just let go of worry suffering 
right now. In the very unlikely event you find you are still suffering after 
death then send me another email
:-)


Edgar







On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:











Hi Edgar,
 
I can only appreciate and agree. As a zen master says, "an imaginery pain is 
more painful than a real one". But just in case, can we do something, less than 
becoming a Buddha, to avoid suffering after death? Or should we just ignore it 
as a fo

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Edgar Owen]

Anthony,

I don't consider myself a nihilist, though I can see how nihilists  
might consider me as such. I don't think nihilism has concepts of  
Zen, it just might accept all the negatives of Zen though. Also I  
don't think there is any scientific conclusion that consciousness  
survives the body at all, just the opposite.


Edgar


On Oct 7, 2008, at 6:42 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Hi Edgar,

That is why I assume you are a nihilist. Wait a moment. Doctors  
(non-religious) have concluded consciousness survives the body.  
Though they cannot prove what comes after death. That is a  
scientific conclusion so far.


Regards,
Anthony

--- On Tue, 7/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 7 October, 2008, 10:38 PM

Hi Anthony,

I understand that Tibetans believe that Bardo occurs after death,  
but I think it's an nde instead since I don't believe in 'after  
death'. As I implied in my previous post nde's don't prove  
consciousness persists after death, only that the consciousness  
(the brain) takes a while to gradually shut down after the rest of  
the body does. Death is not an instantaneous occurrence, it  
proceeds from the outside in towards the center of consciousness  
where a tiny flame lingers for awhile before finally going out.


This was written about by Kazantzakis at the end of 'The Odyssey, A  
Modern Sequel' BTW.


Gosh, I'm almost depressing myself here! :-)

Edgar



On Oct 6, 2008, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Hi Edgar,

Are you a materialist or nihilist? I hope you are right. If I come  
to nothing after death. That is perfect. What if the Tibetan  
Buddhism is right and I go through a lot of horrible things in the  
bardo period. Please note the bardo appears after death, while nde  
occurs when still alive, or half dead. The latter only has a  
glimpse of the other world and then comes back to earth. That is  
why nders mainly have bliss. Few have hell. If you read nde  
literature, the researchers has consensus that consciousness  
survive the body.

Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 7:15 AM

Hi Anthony,

Just punch old Mahakasyapa in the nose when you meet him. He will  
disappear along with the rest of them. All those Bardo characters  
are illusion. Read the Tibetan Book of the Dead for instructions  
on what to do after you die. Then be prepared for something  
totally different. In any case the Bardo realm is not when you are  
completely dead, but just during the gradual process of death when  
time slows as the external layers of your body shut down and your  
consciousness gradually retreats towards the center of your brain.  
After that which may seem a long time but is not really very long  
in external time there is not even nothing so all problems will be  
over.


Anyway glad to see I am cheering you up already!
:-)

Edgar



On Oct 5, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Edgar,

I would like to send you an email after I die, but Mahakasyapa  
says it is unlikely you will receive one. If I am enjoying life  
in heaven, I would not care about the earth because all things  
there are dirty, not worth even thinking about. If I am suffering  
in hell, I will not be capable of sending a message, because the  
devil who tortures me will not allow it. In either case, you will  
be receive an email. Sorry.


Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 6:45 AM

Anthony,

I wouldn't worry about suffering after death. Just let go of  
worry suffering right now. In the very unlikely event you find  
you are still suffering after death then send me another email

:-)

Edgar



On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Hi Edgar,

I can only appreciate and agree. As a zen master says, "an  
imaginery pain is more painful than a real one". But just in  
case, can we do something, less than becoming a Buddha, to avoid  
suffering after death? Or should we just ignore it as a foolish  
idea?


regards,
Anthony

--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] . .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 11:06 PM

JM and Anthony,

If I can add just one more point. Most of Anthony's current  
'suffering' seems to be from worrying about something which  
hasn't ye

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Anthony Wu]

Hi Edgar,
 
That is why I assume you are a nihilist. Wait a moment. Doctors (non-religious) 
have concluded consciousness survives the body. Though they cannot prove what 
comes after death. That is a scientific conclusion so far.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Tue, 7/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 7 October, 2008, 10:38 PM






Hi Anthony,


I understand that Tibetans believe that Bardo occurs after death, but I think 
it's an nde instead since I don't believe in 'after death'. As I implied in my 
previous post nde's don't prove consciousness persists after death, only that 
the consciousness (the brain) takes a while to gradually shut down after the 
rest of the body does. Death is not an instantaneous occurrence, it proceeds 
from the outside in towards the center of consciousness where a tiny flame 
lingers for awhile before finally going out.


This was written about by Kazantzakis at the end of 'The Odyssey, A Modern 
Sequel' BTW.


Gosh, I'm almost depressing myself here! :-)


Edgar







On Oct 6, 2008, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:











Hi Edgar,
 
Are you a materialist or nihilist? I hope you are right. If I come to nothing 
after death. That is perfect. What if the Tibetan Buddhism is right and I go 
through a lot of horrible things in the bardo period. Please note the bardo 
appears after death, while nde occurs when still alive, or half dead. The 
latter only has a glimpse of the other world and then comes back to earth. That 
is why nders mainly have bliss. Few have hell. If you read nde literature, the 
researchers has consensus that consciousness survive the body..
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 7:15 AM




Hi Anthony,


Just punch old Mahakasyapa in the nose when you meet him. He will disappear 
along with the rest of them. All those Bardo characters are illusion. Read the 
Tibetan Book of the Dead for instructions on what to do after you die. Then be 
prepared for something totally different. In any case the Bardo realm is not 
when you are completely dead, but just during the gradual process of death when 
time slows as the external layers of your body shut down and your consciousness 
gradually retreats towards the center of your brain. After that which may seem 
a long time but is not really very long in external time there is not even 
nothing so all problems will be over.


Anyway glad to see I am cheering you up already!
:-)


Edgar







On Oct 5, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:











Edgar,
 
I would like to send you an email after I die, but Mahakasyapa says it is 
unlikely you will receive one. If I am enjoying life in heaven, I would not 
care about the earth because all things there are dirty, not worth even 
thinking about. If I am suffering in hell, I will not be capable of sending a 
message, because the devil who tortures me will not allow it. In either case, 
you will be receive an email. Sorry.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 6:45 AM




Anthony,


I wouldn't worry about suffering after death. Just let go of worry suffering 
right now. In the very unlikely event you find you are still suffering after 
death then send me another email
:-)


Edgar







On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:











Hi Edgar,
 
I can only appreciate and agree. As a zen master says, "an imaginery pain is 
more painful than a real one". But just in case, can we do something, less than 
becoming a Buddha, to avoid suffering after death? Or should we just ignore it 
as a foolish idea?
 
regards,
Anthony

--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] . .net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 11:06 PM




JM and Anthony,


If I can add just one more point. Most of Anthony's current 'suffering' seems 
to be from worrying about something which hasn't yet happened and may never 
happen to him. As JM points out, it is certainly not real here now. This 
suffering from worrying about a nonexistent future simply needs to be let go 
of. Why magnify the very pain of dying you worry about by worrying about it 
when it hasn't even happened and may never happen? That's clinging to the very 
thing you wish to avoid


Edgar

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Edgar Owen]

Hi Anthony,

I understand that Tibetans believe that Bardo occurs after death, but  
I think it's an nde instead since I don't believe in 'after death'.  
As I implied in my previous post nde's don't prove consciousness  
persists after death, only that the consciousness (the brain) takes a  
while to gradually shut down after the rest of the body does. Death  
is not an instantaneous occurrence, it proceeds from the outside in  
towards the center of consciousness where a tiny flame lingers for  
awhile before finally going out.


This was written about by Kazantzakis at the end of 'The Odyssey, A  
Modern Sequel' BTW.


Gosh, I'm almost depressing myself here! :-)

Edgar



On Oct 6, 2008, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Hi Edgar,

Are you a materialist or nihilist? I hope you are right. If I come  
to nothing after death. That is perfect. What if the Tibetan  
Buddhism is right and I go through a lot of horrible things in the  
bardo period. Please note the bardo appears after death, while nde  
occurs when still alive, or half dead. The latter only has a  
glimpse of the other world and then comes back to earth. That is  
why nders mainly have bliss. Few have hell. If you read nde  
literature, the researchers has consensus that consciousness  
survive the body.

Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 7:15 AM

Hi Anthony,

Just punch old Mahakasyapa in the nose when you meet him. He will  
disappear along with the rest of them. All those Bardo characters  
are illusion. Read the Tibetan Book of the Dead for instructions on  
what to do after you die. Then be prepared for something totally  
different. In any case the Bardo realm is not when you are  
completely dead, but just during the gradual process of death when  
time slows as the external layers of your body shut down and your  
consciousness gradually retreats towards the center of your brain.  
After that which may seem a long time but is not really very long  
in external time there is not even nothing so all problems will be  
over.


Anyway glad to see I am cheering you up already!
:-)

Edgar



On Oct 5, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Edgar,

I would like to send you an email after I die, but Mahakasyapa  
says it is unlikely you will receive one. If I am enjoying life in  
heaven, I would not care about the earth because all things there  
are dirty, not worth even thinking about. If I am suffering in  
hell, I will not be capable of sending a message, because the  
devil who tortures me will not allow it. In either case, you will  
be receive an email. Sorry.


Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 6:45 AM

Anthony,

I wouldn't worry about suffering after death. Just let go of worry  
suffering right now. In the very unlikely event you find you are  
still suffering after death then send me another email

:-)

Edgar



On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Hi Edgar,

I can only appreciate and agree. As a zen master says, "an  
imaginery pain is more painful than a real one". But just in  
case, can we do something, less than becoming a Buddha, to avoid  
suffering after death? Or should we just ignore it as a foolish  
idea?


regards,
Anthony

--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] . .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 11:06 PM

JM and Anthony,

If I can add just one more point. Most of Anthony's current  
'suffering' seems to be from worrying about something which  
hasn't yet happened and may never happen to him. As JM points  
out, it is certainly not real here now. This suffering from  
worrying about a nonexistent future simply needs to be let go of.  
Why magnify the very pain of dying you worry about by worrying  
about it when it hasn't even happened and may never happen?  
That's clinging to the very thing you wish to avoid


Edgar




On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  
wrote:



Hi Anthony,

This is an important question.

Bill and Edgar both have stated many times that only the present  
moment
is real. A direct experience is the only thing matters. I am not  
sure
either of them will continue to post regarding this issue. And I  
agree

with them.

Since you still "want" to know and "believe and hope" there got  
to be
more than "just this". Perhaps I can answer in a traditional  

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Anthony Wu]

Hi Mike,
 
All things on earth are dirty is not my point of view. It is a teaching from 
Mahakasyapa, Buddha's senior disciple. There are besutiful as well as ugly 
things on this world.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 11:00 AM








Hi Anthony,

Do you really believe that all things on earth are "dirty" and not worth 
thinking about? What about watching a sunset or listening to Bach (that one was 
for you, Jody)? Or a mother holding her newborn baby.? Or when a stranger risks 
his/her life to help another stranger? I would suggest waking up in the early 
morning and going into the country just to watch a small flower open it's 
petals to a new day and THEN tell me this planet/life is "dirty". If your way 
of thinking is what theists do then I'll proudly wear the label 'atheist'. 
Mike. 



- Original Message 
From: Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com.sg>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Sent: Monday, 6 October, 2008 7:57:38
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"








Edgar,
 
I would like to send you an email after I die, but Mahakasyapa says it is 
unlikely you will receive one. If I am enjoying life in heaven, I would not 
care about the earth because all things there are dirty, not worth even 
thinking about. If I am suffering in hell, I will not be capable of sending a 
message, because the devil who tortures me will not allow it. In either case, 
you will be receive an email. Sorry.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 6:45 AM




Anthony, 


I wouldn't worry about suffering after death. Just let go of worry suffering 
right now. In the very unlikely event you find you are still suffering after 
death then send me another email
:-)


Edgar







On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:











Hi Edgar,
 
I can only appreciate and agree. As a zen master says, "an imaginery pain is 
more painful than a real one". But just in case, can we do something, less than 
becoming a Buddha, to avoid suffering after death? Or should we just ignore it 
as a foolish idea?
 
regards,
Anthony

--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] . .net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 11:06 PM




JM and Anthony, 


If I can add just one more point. Most of Anthony's current 'suffering' seems 
to be from worrying about something which hasn't yet happened and may never 
happen to him. As JM points out, it is certainly not real here now This 
suffering from worrying about a nonexistent future simply needs to be let go 
of. Why magnify the very pain of dying you worry about by worrying about it 
when it hasn't even happened and may never happen? That's clinging to the very 
thing you wish to avoid


Edgar









On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:





Hi Anthony,

This is an important question.

Bill and Edgar both have stated many times that only the present moment 
is real. A direct experience is the only thing matters. I am not sure 
either of them will continue to post regarding this issue. And I agree 
with them. 

Since you still "want" to know and "believe and hope" there got to be 
more than "just this". Perhaps I can answer in a traditional Chinese 
Buddhist way about end of life.

As you know, when Hui-Neng died, his body did not deteriorate. His body 
is still being preserved on an altar without refrigeration in Canton. 
Can this be interpreted that if any of us practice enough, we can die 
gracefully. Does this help?

My personal experience is, if we continue to meditate, we will 
eventually worry less, ask less questions and witness the fact that the 
present moment is the only thing real.

JM

Anthony Wu wrote:
>
> I would like to come back to Al's profound question. The thread he 
> started is getting long and branching out. Can you simply say 'this is 
> it?' How do you react to pain? A famous zen master Daisetsu Suzuki 
> went through a lot of suffering in his last days. I am scared to think 
> about that. If he cannot avoid suffering, how can I? How about you 
> all? Are you sure you will leave this world peacefully?
> 
> Regards,
> Anthony
>
> --- On *Sat, 4/10/08, Al //* wrote:
>
> From: Al 
> Subject: [Zen] Aging and Zen
> To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Saturda

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Anthony Wu]

Hi Edgar,
 
Are you a materialist or nihilist? I hope you are right. If I come to nothing 
after death. That is perfect. What if the Tibetan Buddhism is right and I go 
through a lot of horrible things in the bardo period. Please note the bardo 
appears after death, while nde occurs when still alive, or half dead. The 
latter only has a glimpse of the other world and then comes back to earth. That 
is why nders mainly have bliss. Few have hell. If you read nde literature, the 
researchers has consensus that consciousness survive the body..
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 7:15 AM






Hi Anthony,


Just punch old Mahakasyapa in the nose when you meet him. He will disappear 
along with the rest of them. All those Bardo characters are illusion. Read the 
Tibetan Book of the Dead for instructions on what to do after you die. Then be 
prepared for something totally different. In any case the Bardo realm is not 
when you are completely dead, but just during the gradual process of death when 
time slows as the external layers of your body shut down and your consciousness 
gradually retreats towards the center of your brain. After that which may seem 
a long time but is not really very long in external time there is not even 
nothing so all problems will be over.


Anyway glad to see I am cheering you up already!
:-)


Edgar







On Oct 5, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:











Edgar,
 
I would like to send you an email after I die, but Mahakasyapa says it is 
unlikely you will receive one. If I am enjoying life in heaven, I would not 
care about the earth because all things there are dirty, not worth even 
thinking about. If I am suffering in hell, I will not be capable of sending a 
message, because the devil who tortures me will not allow it. In either case, 
you will be receive an email. Sorry.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 6:45 AM




Anthony,


I wouldn't worry about suffering after death. Just let go of worry suffering 
right now. In the very unlikely event you find you are still suffering after 
death then send me another email
:-)


Edgar







On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:











Hi Edgar,
 
I can only appreciate and agree. As a zen master says, "an imaginery pain is 
more painful than a real one". But just in case, can we do something, less than 
becoming a Buddha, to avoid suffering after death? Or should we just ignore it 
as a foolish idea?
 
regards,
Anthony

--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] . .net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 11:06 PM




JM and Anthony,


If I can add just one more point. Most of Anthony's current 'suffering' seems 
to be from worrying about something which hasn't yet happened and may never 
happen to him. As JM points out, it is certainly not real here now This 
suffering from worrying about a nonexistent future simply needs to be let go 
of. Why magnify the very pain of dying you worry about by worrying about it 
when it hasn't even happened and may never happen? That's clinging to the very 
thing you wish to avoid


Edgar









On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:





Hi Anthony,

This is an important question.

Bill and Edgar both have stated many times that only the present moment 
is real. A direct experience is the only thing matters. I am not sure 
either of them will continue to post regarding this issue. And I agree 
with them. 

Since you still "want" to know and "believe and hope" there got to be 
more than "just this". Perhaps I can answer in a traditional Chinese 
Buddhist way about end of life.

As you know, when Hui-Neng died, his body did not deteriorate. His body 
is still being preserved on an altar without refrigeration in Canton. 
Can this be interpreted that if any of us practice enough, we can die 
gracefully. Does this help?

My personal experience is, if we continue to meditate, we will 
eventually worry less, ask less questions and witness the fact that the 
present moment is the only thing real.

JM

Anthony Wu wrote:
>
> I would like to come back to Al's profound question. The thread he 
> started is getting long and branching out. Can you simply say 'this is 
> it?' How do you react to pain? A famous zen master Daisetsu Suzuki 
> went through a lot of suffering in his la

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[mike brown]

Hi Anthony,

Do you really believe that all things on earth are "dirty" and not worth 
thinking about? What about watching a sunset or listening to Bach (that one was 
for you, Jody)? Or a mother holding her newborn baby.? Or when a stranger risks 
his/her life to help another stranger? I would suggest waking up in the early 
morning and going into the country just to watch a small flower open it's 
petals to a new day and THEN tell me this planet/life is "dirty". If your way 
of thinking is what theists do then I'll proudly wear the label 'atheist'. 
Mike. 



- Original Message 
From: Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 6 October, 2008 7:57:38
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"


Edgar,
 
I would like to send you an email after I die, but Mahakasyapa says it is 
unlikely you will receive one. If I am enjoying life in heaven, I would not 
care about the earth because all things there are dirty, not worth even 
thinking about. If I am suffering in hell, I will not be capable of sending a 
message, because the devil who tortures me will not allow it. In either case, 
you will be receive an email. Sorry.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 6:45 AM


Anthony, 

I wouldn't worry about suffering after death. Just let go of worry suffering 
right now. In the very unlikely event you find you are still suffering after 
death then send me another email
:-)

Edgar




On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Hi Edgar,
 
I can only appreciate and agree. As a zen master says, "an imaginery pain is 
more painful than a real one". But just in case, can we do something, less than 
becoming a Buddha, to avoid suffering after death? Or should we just ignore it 
as a foolish idea?
 
regards,
Anthony

--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] . .net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 11:06 PM


JM and Anthony, 

If I can add just one more point. Most of Anthony's current 'suffering' seems 
to be from worrying about something which hasn't yet happened and may never 
happen to him. As JM points out, it is certainly not real here now This 
suffering from worrying about a nonexistent future simply needs to be let go 
of. Why magnify the very pain of dying you worry about by worrying about it 
when it hasn't even happened and may never happen? That's clinging to the very 
thing you wish to avoid

Edgar





On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:

Hi Anthony,

This is an important question.

Bill and Edgar both have stated many times that only the present moment 
is real. A direct experience is the only thing matters. I am not sure 
either of them will continue to post regarding this issue. And I agree 
with them. 

Since you still "want" to know and "believe and hope" there got to be 
more than "just this". Perhaps I can answer in a traditional Chinese 
Buddhist way about end of life.

As you know, when Hui-Neng died, his body did not deteriorate. His body 
is still being preserved on an altar without refrigeration in Canton. 
Can this be interpreted that if any of us practice enough, we can die 
gracefully. Does this help?

My personal experience is, if we continue to meditate, we will 
eventually worry less, ask less questions and witness the fact that the 
present moment is the only thing real.

JM

Anthony Wu wrote:
>
> I would like to come back to Al's profound question. The thread he 
> started is getting long and branching out. Can you simply say 'this is 
> it?' How do you react to pain? A famous zen master Daisetsu Suzuki 
> went through a lot of suffering in his last days. I am scared to think 
> about that. If he cannot avoid suffering, how can I? How about you 
> all? Are you sure you will leave this world peacefully?
> 
> Regards,
> Anthony
>
> --- On *Sat, 4/10/08, Al //* wrote:
>
> From: Al 
> Subject: [Zen] Aging and Zen
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 2:14 AM
>
> As we all get older, and some of us are a lot older, the question for
> me now is this: Does Zen give you everything you want? Are you
> willing
> to die sitting on a cushion just saying "this is it?" No Heaven for
> you? No Nirvana? No nothing? Just worms??
>
>
>  - - - - - -
> Get your preferred Email name! 
> <http://sg.rd. yahoo.com/ sg/mail/domainch oice

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Edgar Owen]

Hi Anthony,

Just punch old Mahakasyapa in the nose when you meet him. He will  
disappear along with the rest of them. All those Bardo characters are  
illusion. Read the Tibetan Book of the Dead for instructions on what  
to do after you die. Then be prepared for something totally  
different. In any case the Bardo realm is not when you are completely  
dead, but just during the gradual process of death when time slows as  
the external layers of your body shut down and your consciousness  
gradually retreats towards the center of your brain. After that which  
may seem a long time but is not really very long in external time  
there is not even nothing so all problems will be over.


Anyway glad to see I am cheering you up already!
:-)

Edgar



On Oct 5, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Edgar,

I would like to send you an email after I die, but Mahakasyapa says  
it is unlikely you will receive one. If I am enjoying life in  
heaven, I would not care about the earth because all things there  
are dirty, not worth even thinking about. If I am suffering in  
hell, I will not be capable of sending a message, because the devil  
who tortures me will not allow it. In either case, you will be  
receive an email. Sorry.


Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 6:45 AM

Anthony,

I wouldn't worry about suffering after death. Just let go of worry  
suffering right now. In the very unlikely event you find you are  
still suffering after death then send me another email

:-)

Edgar



On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Hi Edgar,

I can only appreciate and agree. As a zen master says, "an  
imaginery pain is more painful than a real one". But just in case,  
can we do something, less than becoming a Buddha, to avoid  
suffering after death? Or should we just ignore it as a foolish idea?


regards,
Anthony

--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] . .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 11:06 PM

JM and Anthony,

If I can add just one more point. Most of Anthony's current  
'suffering' seems to be from worrying about something which hasn't  
yet happened and may never happen to him. As JM points out, it is  
certainly not real here now This suffering from worrying about  
a nonexistent future simply needs to be let go of. Why magnify the  
very pain of dying you worry about by worrying about it when it  
hasn't even happened and may never happen? That's clinging to the  
very thing you wish to avoid


Edgar




On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:


Hi Anthony,

This is an important question.

Bill and Edgar both have stated many times that only the present  
moment
is real. A direct experience is the only thing matters. I am not  
sure
either of them will continue to post regarding this issue. And I  
agree

with them.

Since you still "want" to know and "believe and hope" there got  
to be

more than "just this". Perhaps I can answer in a traditional Chinese
Buddhist way about end of life.

As you know, when Hui-Neng died, his body did not deteriorate.  
His body
is still being preserved on an altar without refrigeration in  
Canton.
Can this be interpreted that if any of us practice enough, we can  
die

gracefully. Does this help?

My personal experience is, if we continue to meditate, we will
eventually worry less, ask less questions and witness the fact  
that the

present moment is the only thing real.

JM

Anthony Wu wrote:
>
> I would like to come back to Al's profound question. The thread he
> started is getting long and branching out. Can you simply say  
'this is

> it?' How do you react to pain? A famous zen master Daisetsu Suzuki
> went through a lot of suffering in his last days. I am scared  
to think

> about that. If he cannot avoid suffering, how can I? How about you
> all? Are you sure you will leave this world peacefully?
>
> Regards,
> Anthony
>
> --- On *Sat, 4/10/08, Al //* wrote:
>
> From: Al 
> Subject: [Zen] Aging and Zen
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 2:14 AM
>
> As we all get older, and some of us are a lot older, the  
question for

> me now is this: Does Zen give you everything you want? Are you
> willing
> to die sitting on a cushion just saying "this is it?" No Heaven  
for

> you? No Nirvana? No nothing? Just worms??
>
>
>  - - - - - -
> Get your preferred Email name!
> <http://sg.rd. yahoo.com/ sg

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[roloro1557]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Anthony,
> 
> I wouldn't worry about suffering after death. Just let go of worry  
> suffering right now. In the very unlikely event you find you are  
^^ 
> still suffering after death then send me another email
  ^^
> :-)
> 
> Edgar

hahahahahahaha ROFLOL!!!
Margie (roloro1557)





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Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Anthony Wu]

Edgar,
 
I would like to send you an email after I die, but Mahakasyapa says it is 
unlikely you will receive one. If I am enjoying life in heaven, I would not 
care about the earth because all things there are dirty, not worth even 
thinking about. If I am suffering in hell, I will not be capable of sending a 
message, because the devil who tortures me will not allow it. In either case, 
you will be receive an email. Sorry.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 6:45 AM






Anthony,


I wouldn't worry about suffering after death. Just let go of worry suffering 
right now. In the very unlikely event you find you are still suffering after 
death then send me another email
:-)


Edgar







On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:











Hi Edgar,
 
I can only appreciate and agree. As a zen master says, "an imaginery pain is 
more painful than a real one". But just in case, can we do something, less than 
becoming a Buddha, to avoid suffering after death? Or should we just ignore it 
as a foolish idea?
 
regards,
Anthony

--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] . .net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 11:06 PM




JM and Anthony,


If I can add just one more point. Most of Anthony's current 'suffering' seems 
to be from worrying about something which hasn't yet happened and may never 
happen to him. As JM points out, it is certainly not real here now... This 
suffering from worrying about a nonexistent future simply needs to be let go 
of. Why magnify the very pain of dying you worry about by worrying about it 
when it hasn't even happened and may never happen? That's clinging to the very 
thing you wish to avoid


Edgar









On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:





Hi Anthony,

This is an important question.

Bill and Edgar both have stated many times that only the present moment 
is real. A direct experience is the only thing matters. I am not sure 
either of them will continue to post regarding this issue. And I agree 
with them. 

Since you still "want" to know and "believe and hope" there got to be 
more than "just this". Perhaps I can answer in a traditional Chinese 
Buddhist way about end of life.

As you know, when Hui-Neng died, his body did not deteriorate. His body 
is still being preserved on an altar without refrigeration in Canton. 
Can this be interpreted that if any of us practice enough, we can die 
gracefully. Does this help?

My personal experience is, if we continue to meditate, we will 
eventually worry less, ask less questions and witness the fact that the 
present moment is the only thing real.

JM

Anthony Wu wrote:
>
> I would like to come back to Al's profound question. The thread he 
> started is getting long and branching out. Can you simply say 'this is 
> it?' How do you react to pain? A famous zen master Daisetsu Suzuki 
> went through a lot of suffering in his last days. I am scared to think 
> about that. If he cannot avoid suffering, how can I? How about you 
> all? Are you sure you will leave this world peacefully?
> 
> Regards,
> Anthony
>
> --- On *Sat, 4/10/08, Al //* wrote:
>
> From: Al 
> Subject: [Zen] Aging and Zen
> To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 2:14 AM
>
> As we all get older, and some of us are a lot older, the question for
> me now is this: Does Zen give you everything you want? Are you
> willing
> to die sitting on a cushion just saying "this is it?" No Heaven for
> you? No Nirvana? No nothing? Just worms??
>
>
>  - - - - - -
> Get your preferred Email name! 
> <http://sg.rd. yahoo.com/ sg/mail/domainch oice/mail/ signature/ 
> *http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ sg/> 
>
> Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail. .com.
> 




New Email names for you! 
Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail.
Hurry before someone else does!


 














  Try the all-new Y! Messenger

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Edgar Owen]

Anthony,

I wouldn't worry about suffering after death. Just let go of worry  
suffering right now. In the very unlikely event you find you are  
still suffering after death then send me another email

:-)

Edgar



On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Hi Edgar,

I can only appreciate and agree. As a zen master says, "an  
imaginery pain is more painful than a real one". But just in case,  
can we do something, less than becoming a Buddha, to avoid  
suffering after death? Or should we just ignore it as a foolish idea?


regards,
Anthony

--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 11:06 PM

JM and Anthony,

If I can add just one more point. Most of Anthony's current  
'suffering' seems to be from worrying about something which hasn't  
yet happened and may never happen to him. As JM points out, it is  
certainly not real here now... This suffering from worrying about a  
nonexistent future simply needs to be let go of. Why magnify the  
very pain of dying you worry about by worrying about it when it  
hasn't even happened and may never happen? That's clinging to the  
very thing you wish to avoid


Edgar




On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:


Hi Anthony,

This is an important question.

Bill and Edgar both have stated many times that only the present  
moment

is real. A direct experience is the only thing matters. I am not sure
either of them will continue to post regarding this issue. And I  
agree

with them.

Since you still "want" to know and "believe and hope" there got to be
more than "just this". Perhaps I can answer in a traditional Chinese
Buddhist way about end of life.

As you know, when Hui-Neng died, his body did not deteriorate. His  
body

is still being preserved on an altar without refrigeration in Canton.
Can this be interpreted that if any of us practice enough, we can die
gracefully. Does this help?

My personal experience is, if we continue to meditate, we will
eventually worry less, ask less questions and witness the fact  
that the

present moment is the only thing real.

JM

Anthony Wu wrote:
>
> I would like to come back to Al's profound question. The thread he
> started is getting long and branching out. Can you simply say  
'this is

> it?' How do you react to pain? A famous zen master Daisetsu Suzuki
> went through a lot of suffering in his last days. I am scared to  
think

> about that. If he cannot avoid suffering, how can I? How about you
> all? Are you sure you will leave this world peacefully?
>
> Regards,
> Anthony
>
> --- On *Sat, 4/10/08, Al //* wrote:
>
> From: Al 
> Subject: [Zen] Aging and Zen
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 2:14 AM
>
> As we all get older, and some of us are a lot older, the  
question for

> me now is this: Does Zen give you everything you want? Are you
> willing
> to die sitting on a cushion just saying "this is it?" No Heaven for
> you? No Nirvana? No nothing? Just worms??
>
>
>  - - - - - -
> Get your preferred Email name!
> <http://sg.rd. yahoo.com/ sg/mail/domainch oice/mail/ signature/  
*http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ sg/>

>
> Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail. .com.
>



New Email names for you!
Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and  
@rocketmail.

Hurry before someone else does!

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Anthony Wu]

Hi Edgar,
 
I can only appreciate and agree. As a zen master says, "an imaginery pain is 
more painful than a real one". But just in case, can we do something, less than 
becoming a Buddha, to avoid suffering after death? Or should we just ignore it 
as a foolish idea?
 
regards,
Anthony

--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 11:06 PM






JM and Anthony,


If I can add just one more point. Most of Anthony's current 'suffering' seems 
to be from worrying about something which hasn't yet happened and may never 
happen to him. As JM points out, it is certainly not real here now. This 
suffering from worrying about a nonexistent future simply needs to be let go 
of. Why magnify the very pain of dying you worry about by worrying about it 
when it hasn't even happened and may never happen? That's clinging to the very 
thing you wish to avoid


Edgar









On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:





Hi Anthony,

This is an important question.

Bill and Edgar both have stated many times that only the present moment 
is real. A direct experience is the only thing matters. I am not sure 
either of them will continue to post regarding this issue. And I agree 
with them. 

Since you still "want" to know and "believe and hope" there got to be 
more than "just this". Perhaps I can answer in a traditional Chinese 
Buddhist way about end of life.

As you know, when Hui-Neng died, his body did not deteriorate. His body 
is still being preserved on an altar without refrigeration in Canton. 
Can this be interpreted that if any of us practice enough, we can die 
gracefully. Does this help?

My personal experience is, if we continue to meditate, we will 
eventually worry less, ask less questions and witness the fact that the 
present moment is the only thing real.

JM

Anthony Wu wrote:
>
> I would like to come back to Al's profound question. The thread he 
> started is getting long and branching out. Can you simply say 'this is 
> it?' How do you react to pain? A famous zen master Daisetsu Suzuki 
> went through a lot of suffering in his last days. I am scared to think 
> about that. If he cannot avoid suffering, how can I? How about you 
> all? Are you sure you will leave this world peacefully?
> 
> Regards,
> Anthony
>
> --- On *Sat, 4/10/08, Al //* wrote:
>
> From: Al 
> Subject: [Zen] Aging and Zen
> To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 2:14 AM
>
> As we all get older, and some of us are a lot older, the question for
> me now is this: Does Zen give you everything you want? Are you
> willing
> to die sitting on a cushion just saying "this is it?" No Heaven for
> you? No Nirvana? No nothing? Just worms??
>
>
>  - - - - - -
> Get your preferred Email name! 
> <http://sg.rd. yahoo.com/ sg/mail/domainch oice/mail/ signature/ 
> *http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ sg/> 
>
> Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail. .com.
> 

 














  Get your preferred Email name!
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Anthony Wu]

Hi JM,
 
I would envy anybody facing pain with magnonimity and would like to do the 
same, but am not sure I can.
 
By the way, the real body of Huineng was burnt by our lovely Red Guards during 
the Cultural Revolution. What you see now is a replica.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 10:44 PM






Hi Anthony,

This is an important question.

Bill and Edgar both have stated many times that only the present moment 
is real. A direct experience is the only thing matters. I am not sure 
either of them will continue to post regarding this issue. And I agree 
with them. 

Since you still "want" to know and "believe and hope" there got to be 
more than "just this". Perhaps I can answer in a traditional Chinese 
Buddhist way about end of life.

As you know, when Hui-Neng died, his body did not deteriorate. His body 
is still being preserved on an altar without refrigeration in Canton. 
Can this be interpreted that if any of us practice enough, we can die 
gracefully. Does this help?

My personal experience is, if we continue to meditate, we will 
eventually worry less, ask less questions and witness the fact that the 
present moment is the only thing real.

JM

Anthony Wu wrote:
>
> I would like to come back to Al's profound question. The thread he 
> started is getting long and branching out. Can you simply say 'this is 
> it?' How do you react to pain? A famous zen master Daisetsu Suzuki 
> went through a lot of suffering in his last days. I am scared to think 
> about that. If he cannot avoid suffering, how can I? How about you 
> all? Are you sure you will leave this world peacefully?
> 
> Regards,
> Anthony
>
> --- On *Sat, 4/10/08, Al //* wrote:
>
> From: Al 
> Subject: [Zen] Aging and Zen
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 2:14 AM
>
> As we all get older, and some of us are a lot older, the question for
> me now is this: Does Zen give you everything you want? Are you
> willing
> to die sitting on a cushion just saying "this is it?" No Heaven for
> you? No Nirvana? No nothing? Just worms??
>
>
>  - - - - - -
> Get your preferred Email name! 
> <http://sg.rd. yahoo.com/ sg/mail/domainch oice/mail/ signature/ 
> *http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ sg/> 
>
> Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail. .com.
> 
 














  Get your new Email address!
Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does!
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Edgar Owen]

JM and Anthony,

If I can add just one more point. Most of Anthony's current  
'suffering' seems to be from worrying about something which hasn't  
yet happened and may never happen to him. As JM points out, it is  
certainly not real here now. This suffering from worrying about a  
nonexistent future simply needs to be let go of. Why magnify the very  
pain of dying you worry about by worrying about it when it hasn't  
even happened and may never happen? That's clinging to the very thing  
you wish to avoid


Edgar




On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:


Hi Anthony,

This is an important question.

Bill and Edgar both have stated many times that only the present  
moment

is real. A direct experience is the only thing matters. I am not sure
either of them will continue to post regarding this issue. And I agree
with them.

Since you still "want" to know and "believe and hope" there got to be
more than "just this". Perhaps I can answer in a traditional Chinese
Buddhist way about end of life.

As you know, when Hui-Neng died, his body did not deteriorate. His  
body

is still being preserved on an altar without refrigeration in Canton.
Can this be interpreted that if any of us practice enough, we can die
gracefully. Does this help?

My personal experience is, if we continue to meditate, we will
eventually worry less, ask less questions and witness the fact that  
the

present moment is the only thing real.

JM

Anthony Wu wrote:
>
> I would like to come back to Al's profound question. The thread he
> started is getting long and branching out. Can you simply say  
'this is

> it?' How do you react to pain? A famous zen master Daisetsu Suzuki
> went through a lot of suffering in his last days. I am scared to  
think

> about that. If he cannot avoid suffering, how can I? How about you
> all? Are you sure you will leave this world peacefully?
>
> Regards,
> Anthony
>
> --- On *Sat, 4/10/08, Al /<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> From: Al <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [Zen] Aging and Zen
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 2:14 AM
>
> As we all get older, and some of us are a lot older, the question  
for

> me now is this: Does Zen give you everything you want? Are you
> willing
> to die sitting on a cushion just saying "this is it?" No Heaven for
> you? No Nirvana? No nothing? Just worms??
>
>
> --
> Get your preferred Email name!
> 

>
> Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail..com.
>

Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

Hi Anthony,

This is an important question.

Bill and Edgar both have stated many times that only the present moment 
is real.  A direct experience is the only thing matters.  I am not sure 
either of them will continue to post regarding this issue.  And I agree 
with them. 

Since you still "want" to know and "believe and hope" there got to be 
more than "just this".  Perhaps I can answer in a traditional Chinese 
Buddhist way about end of life.

As you know, when Hui-Neng died, his body did not deteriorate.  His body 
is still being preserved on an altar without refrigeration in Canton.  
Can this be interpreted that if any of us practice enough, we can die 
gracefully.  Does this help?

My personal experience is, if we continue to meditate, we will 
eventually worry less, ask less questions and witness the fact that the 
present moment is the only thing real.

JM

Anthony Wu wrote:
>
> I would like to come back to Al's profound question. The thread he 
> started is getting long and branching out. Can you simply say 'this is 
> it?' How do you react to pain? A famous zen master Daisetsu Suzuki 
> went through a lot of suffering in his last days. I am scared to think 
> about that. If he cannot avoid suffering, how can I? How about you 
> all? Are you sure you will leave this world peacefully?
>  
> Regards,
> Anthony
>
> --- On *Sat, 4/10/08, Al /<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> From: Al <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [Zen] Aging and Zen
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 2:14 AM
>
> As we all get older, and some of us are a lot older, the question for
> me now is this: Does Zen give you everything you want? Are you
> willing
> to die sitting on a cushion just saying "this is it?" No Heaven for
> you? No Nirvana? No nothing? Just worms??
>
>
> 
> Get your preferred Email name! 
> 
>  
>
> Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail..com.
>  



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Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

[Edgar Owen]

Anthony,

There are two kinds of suffering. Most so called suffering, e.g. most  
emotional 'pain', is illusory as it simply depends on how one reacts  
to something and that can be let go of. Physical pain of say cancer  
is different, it can't be avoided. But one must remember you are not  
your pain just as you are not your pleasure. Either can come or go  
and consciousness still exists. Pain is a content of consciousness,  
one of many. One should hopefully concentrate on the consciousness  
itself and not the individual contents and not let something like  
pain divert the mind from the Zen of consciousness itself. That is  
the best one can do, to ignore the pain and focus on the  
consciousness itself. That is the true bravery of Zen which goes  
straight ahead on the path and disregards death and doesn't let  
consciousness get lost in suffering.


Edgar



On Oct 5, 2008, at 9:12 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:



I would like to come back to Al's profound question. The thread he  
started is getting long and branching out. Can you simply say 'this  
is it?' How do you react to pain? A famous zen master Daisetsu  
Suzuki went through a lot of suffering in his last days. I am  
scared to think about that. If he cannot avoid suffering, how can  
I? How about you all? Are you sure you will leave this world  
peacefully?


Regards,
Anthony

--- On Sat, 4/10/08, Al <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Al <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Zen] Aging and Zen
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 2:14 AM

As we all get older, and some of us are a lot older, the question for
me now is this: Does Zen give you everything you want? Are you willing
to die sitting on a cushion just saying "this is it?" No Heaven for
you? No Nirvana? No nothing? Just worms??


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