RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 07:49 AM 11/19/2003 -0700, St Stephen wrote:
At 04:47 AM 11/19/2003, The elfen Till wrote:

Till gets in trouble for his obvious great mirth . . .
And I always get in trouble for my obvious great girth.


And Till started out in trouble with his obvious great birth

Till, who grew up being labeled a mistake

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 11:30 PM 11/18/2003 +, St Stephen wrote:

Hey, I'm Tom Bombadil, Tommy Bom-bom-ba-dil-lo!
My head is a sieve, and my brain is like Bril-lo!
I dance and I sing, and I sing and I dance!
I'm a jolly old godling in search of my pants!


You've certainly caught the essence, if not quite the "right" words.  

Till

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 04:11 PM 11/18/2003 -0700, Uncle Tom wrote:
The wise and venerable Till explains:

>  Realizing that it was satire really helped, I stopped being
> offended by the seriousness of some of the absurdities.
>
If that stuff is satire then why am I not allowed to guffaw loudly at
all the appropriate places (virtually every line) during the movies?
Those movies, to me are almost as funny as Airplane. But nobody else is
laughing, and those of the female persuasion in my household don't
appreciate my noisy enjoyment. What gives?


Till gets in trouble for his obvious great mirth also.  The vicar, what's 
his name, ah ... Mr Collins, is so funny that we can't help but 
guffaw.  And Mr Bingley's brother-in-law, zonked out on the settle, is too 
funny for words.  Especially combined with the only memorable line that he 
has, "She prefers ragout, how very singular!"  or something to that 
effect.  But Collins takes the buffoonery cake for sure.  And the mother, 
what a hoot.

Till

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Re: [ZION] The Mouse

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 04:11 PM 11/18/2003 +, Gib Mij wrote:

Mickey is 75 today.

Somehow defines the age of our culture.


Does this age also include his "predecessor" Steamboat Willy, or just his 
current incarnation as the Mick?

Till

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 08:58 AM 11/18/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote:

>
> Yes, Tolkein has redeeming social value.  I have always been fascinated
> with his characterizations and I thought the movie version did a
> reasonable
> job of bringing them to life.  Potter, on the other hand, while
> entertaining, reminds me a great deal of the Hardy Boys (turns handle on
> crank for the next installment).  Has it's use, but ...
Ah yes, "redeeming social value:" an eye-of-the-beholder matter if there
ever was one.


Yes, we was smiling when we wrote that, wondering what sort of comments it 
might provoke.

Till

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 08:56 AM 11/18/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote:
John:

Relax brother. I was just fooling.  My youngest is a big Potter fan...and so
we got sucked into the queue for Potter at midnight marketing scheme that
drove sales of the latest version through the roof.
If you're as old as The Deseret Rat, then I'm slightly younger than both of
you, but not by much (same high school grad year, but I was the youngest in
the class).
I liked Harry Potter and have read all the books (because my children have).
I liked the movie as well. Ditto Lord of The Rings.  However, as a rule,
neither are my cups of tea. My tastes and interests run more to the likes
of: Dickens, Irving, Roth, Salinger, Dickinson, Potok, Wolfe. I thought
Judith Freeman's (my first of her) was well crafted.


Last winter I decided to take the Beecroft challenge and see what really 
was in Pride and Prejudice, since there was a hole in my late 18th/early 
19th century British literature experience anyway.  The first read left me 
a bit lost and still wondering.  So I read it again and began to find the 
treasures.  Realizing that it was satire really helped, I stopped being 
offended by the seriousness of some of the absurdities.  I have since read 
most of her other novels and re-read P/P at least twice more and find them 
quite intriguing.  Her style has to grow on you, I guess.  I really like 
the BBC production of P/P also.  The character portrayals are excellent.

Till

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 04:18 AM 11/18/2003 -0900, BLT wrote:
RB Scott wrote:
Ah. The Harry Potter syndrome. Now I understand.,
Now you understand and I am confused.  What is this Harry Potter 
syndrome?  I didn't like the Harry Potter movie that I saw.  In fact, I 
never went to see the next one.  And I have never read one of the 
books.  Is it possible that you are just too old to like fantasy?  I 
thought you were my age.  I am the same age as Mel Perkins.


Yes, Tolkein has redeeming social value.  I have always been fascinated 
with his characterizations and I thought the movie version did a reasonable 
job of bringing them to life.  Potter, on the other hand, while 
entertaining, reminds me a great deal of the Hardy Boys (turns handle on 
crank for the next installment).  Has it's use, but ...

Till

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Re: [ZION] Introducing Gary Smith

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 08:47 PM 11/15/2003 -0600, Heidi the fair wrote:
LOVE the suggestion, Gary!  We're only 6 hours from Nauvoo...let's plan on
it!
Till MAY be able to swing it.

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Re: [ZION] Sons of Perdition

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 07:57 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, St Jon wrote:
If this were lds-poll, I would say that there was a third hell, something
about Mass. and one of their Senators.


Hey, what about us New Yorkers?

Till the downtrodden

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Re: [ZION] Does anyone know?

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 09:14 AM 11/14/2003 +0900, Cousin Bill wrote:
 I mean, it isn't like
we're talking about a real sport like .


Rugby?

Till

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RE: [ZION] Old Jeeps

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 07:58 AM 11/13/2003 -0700, St Steven wrote:

I think that was your first mistake--putting your faith and trust in a 
cornbinder . The absolutely worst truck I ever drove (It belonged to 
my dad, and he owned several trucks for his business) was a 1971 IH 
pickup. Gutless, always breaking down, miserable on gas mileage.


I had a 1968 Cornbinder once.  It was a 1 ton, 4 door, with 2 full 
seats.  We used it to haul wood out of the woods.  We called it "The 
Beast"  He just loved to guzzle petrol.  The springs would rock and roll 
(it was loaded to the gills, at least 5-6 ft high, with green wood) as it 
wallowed through the forest.  The tires would squish and moan as it lurched 
along at an idle in "grandma".  Was quite an experience for the kids.

Also had a 1971 Scout.  He was named "Old Man Rust"  Left rear quarter 
panel fell off on the road one evening and was dragging by the tail light 
wires.  Caught fire once when I was out and about, but we just replaced the 
melted parts and we were good to go next day or two.  He also loved to 
guzzle his petrol.

While we're at it, we've had some jeeps, too.  Had a 1946 CJ2 that I used 
in the woods for a while.  Just sold the hulk a couple weeks ago.  Also had 
a 1978 CJ5 that I drove as my primary vehicle for several years.  Hate to 
say how many times I froze my toes in that puppy.  It had a 360cu in 
engine.  It was an awesome machine, for an old rustbucket with a raggedy 
rag top.

Ah, the things memories are made of.

Till

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RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 09:11 AM 11/13/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote:


Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till.  If Brother
McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good
thinking/doing prevailing over evil.  Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would
go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for instance.


Skewer them with the sword of truth.  Gets 'em every time.  (right in the 
gizzard)

Till, oilin' up his sword and gettin' ready to roll

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RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 10:58 PM 11/12/2003 -0700, Sir Lew wrote:
At 01:16 PM 11/12/2003, you wrote:

Once Satan is loosed, he will gather an army from amongst those still
living upon the earth. However, it will not be anywhere near the numbers
he has already taken with him.  In a world populated with 10 billion
people, I would imagine his army would be in the millions at most.
From my understanding and as Brother McConkie indicates "This final great 
battle, in which evil spirits, mortal men, and resurrected personages all 
participate, will be the end of war as far as this earth is 
concerned"I believe that the final battle includes these evil spirits 
or in other words the 1/3 of the host of heaven that was kicked out with 
Satan.  If this is the case it surely would be more than millions.


Wow, what a huge rumble!  Get's the old Celtic/Norse blood riling just to 
think about it.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Old Jeeps

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 10:17 PM 11/12/2003 -0500, Grampa Bill wrote:

Grampa Bill comments:
   Not likely. Early Alzheimers predominently afftects short term 
memory... not interesting life memories that happened years ago.
   They say that as you age, your memory is the second thing to go. 
Unfortunately, I can't remember what the first thing is. Also can't 
remember if I've used this line before in this forum.
Love y'all,


Only about a hundred times!   

Till

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Re: [ZION] Starts with G "Gap"

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 01:24 AM 11/13/2003 +, Uncle Tom, the Gapper wrote:

Usually one is disturbed by widening gaps and happier about narrowing
gaps.  But sometimes it's the other way around.


Till has been ever mindful of the widening gap between those who choose 
good and those who choose evil.

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RE: [ZION] Thrift!

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 06:31 AM 11/12/2003 -0700, St Steven wrote:


The only time I got "stuck" with my Jeep was when I high centered it near 
Steinaker Reservoir, north of Vernal. It was on a narrow steep ridge-line 
that sloped off both ways and also sloped off front and back. I couldn't 
winch it, had absolutely no traction on any wheels, and couldn't budge it 
myself. I ended up paying a tow truck $50. All he had to do was put out a 
long line and then pull me about 3 feet, just enough to get me going again.


That's when bumper jacks shine.  Just jack one end up as far as you can get 
it, then give it a shove to tip it over (if the cuss-ed thing hasn't tipped 
over already).  Repeat until clear.  Once turned a car completely around 
like that in a narrow cut driveway up to my wazoo in snow.  Or, in this 
instance, you could possibly have put rocks under the wheels one at a time 
as you got them airborn.  Sort of built up enough cairn to "float" it free.

Till the been there done that

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RE: [ZION] This is Me

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 07:28 PM 11/10/2003 +, Gib Mij wrote:

A most amazing hat--

(URL looks pretty mangled after I copied it.  Might have to try a bit of
cutting and pasting to resurrect the whole corpus.)


Pretty scary.  Especially the big belly!

Till the wary

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RE: [ZION] Thrift!

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 10:39 PM 11/8/2003 -0600, St John AE wrote:
Back in the 70's  I bought an MG Midget.  It was new and I paid too much fir
it, but it was a really cool car.  It was fast, cornered like an expensive
sports car and economical on the gas bill.  It was the most fun I ever had
driving.


Yes, yes, Till once had a bugeye Austin Healy Sprite*.  Absolute fun to 
drive.  The only drawbacks were the long gap between 2nd and 3rd gear, and 
the absence of side windows (had curtains) when it was cold.  Sure miss 
that little blue Frog!

*precursor to the second model Sprite, which was exactly the same as the MG 
Midget.  The bugeye had a slightly smaller displacement, but I found it 
would actually outperform the later version.

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Re: [ZION] Sons of perdition

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 05:16 PM 11/8/2003 -0900, BLT wrote:
Gerald Smith wrote:
I have some quotes here, which will show that one must do more than
receive the Holy Ghost and reject it to become a candidate for perdition.
You will see that one must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens
opened up, know God, and then totally and completely rebel.
I agree with this, but what does it mean to "have the heavens opened up, 
and know God?"  Can a person gain a perfect knowledge so that faith is 
dormant by the witness of the Holy Ghost alone?  Or does he actually have 
to see the face of God? --JWR
The more one knows, the more responsibility one carries.  The deeper you 
get into the mud, the more difficult it is to get out.  I, for one, would 
rather not push my luck to find out.

Till the pragmatist

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Re: [ZION] This is Me

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 05:11 PM 11/8/2003 -0700, Uncle Tom wrote:


I've done a lot of "window" shopping for hats on the web. There's lots of
sites, you can find them by searching for "fedora hats" on Google.


I've drooled quite a lot over Clearwater Hats.  They have a nice web 
presence and a great selection of handmade fur felt hats.  Pricey, but I'm 
willing to chance that the quality is worth 
it.    One of these days ...

Till

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Re: [ZION] This is Me

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 10:52 AM 11/8/2003 -0900, BLT wrote:
Tom Matkin wrote:
I wear hats. Fedora's, Pendletons, Straws, Outbacks, and the like. I
wear hats in a place where all the other men, and a few of the women,
favour ball caps. Even in their Sunday best they will sometimes wear a
John Deere cap... to the temple. It used to startle me a bit, but I've
grown accustomed to it. Others have had trouble becoming accustomed to
me in my black fedora, but ain't that the way it is, some of us never
sit quite easy in the saddle.
Years ago in my early 20's I wore a Stetson business fedora.  Since then I 
have either been hatless or worn a baseball cap.  Then last Christmas my 
wife bought me a fedora.  Inside it proclaims that it is an "official" 
Indiana Jones hat, the same style he wore in the movies.  I like it a lot, 
but it is wool felt.  It isn't fur felt, and it doesn't have a satin 
lining, so it isn't the best hat I've every owned.  I have ambitions to 
own an even better hat, by and by, maybe a homburg but probably another fedora.

Where do you get your hats?  Here in Ketchikan the selection is 
dismal.  Do you buy any of them on the Internet.  If so, what are some of 
your favorite websites?


Till just got a new suede Aussie from Sierra Trading Post (Cheyenne WY) for 
under $20 US  Perfectly serviceable.

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RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 07:09 PM 11/7/2003 +, Rabbi Rabinowitz wrote:
The bottom line
is that while the question of exaltation may turn on our willingness to
enter into the eternal covenant of marriage--a specific commandment--it
turns most of all upon our willingness to keep ALL of his commandments
and in so doing, to then allow the atonement (through the process of
repentance) to take full effect in our lives.


I think the operative words here are "sealed by the Holy Spirit of 
Promise"  This is something that this feeble old brain doesn't completely 
understand, but it sounds pretty intimidating all the same.  Could it be 
coincidental with the second comforter?  Scary thought, says I, if you read 
the rest of the chapter with that in mind.  I'm with the BLT, sometimes I 
"fear" God.  It certainly gives me great incentive to try harder each day.

Till

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RE: [ZION] Wee Small Hours

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

Oh, man, how can a nut make THAT mistake?  We was thinking, as Ron will 
easily recognize, of Walnut Hill, which is where, in Natick?

Till the embarrassed (t least it was a cocunut!)

At 05:48 AM 11/7/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote:
 My
youngest daughter attends school in Chestnut Hill, a section of Newton:


Ah, yes, nice school.  We (meaning Ithaca Ballet**) have one of our girls 
gong there this year, Dasha Kittridge, as a drama major.  A marvelously 
talented and beautiful young lady.

Till

** (Schindlerian footnote) I decided the best way to repay all the kindness 
they did for my family was to serve on the board of directors AFTER my kids 
were out of there.  They've gone and made me president now, which means I 
get to control how long (or short) the meetings are.  So I still have a 
direct interest in the students there.

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RE: [ZION] Wee Small Hours

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 05:48 AM 11/7/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote:
 My
youngest daughter attends school in Chestnut Hill, a section of Newton:


Ah, yes, nice school.  We (meaning Ithaca Ballet**) have one of our girls 
gong there this year, Dasha Kittridge, as a drama major.  A marvelously 
talented and beautiful young lady.

Till

** (Schindlerian footnote) I decided the best way to repay all the kindness 
they did for my family was to serve on the board of directors AFTER my kids 
were out of there.  They've gone and made me president now, which means I 
get to control how long (or short) the meetings are.  So I still have a 
direct interest in the students there.

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Re: [ZION] A reading list

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 08:28 AM 11/7/2003 -0700, St George wrote:
Ah - a topic that will not engender evil emotions.

I just finished reading "By the Hand of Mormon" by Terryl Givens.  A
excellant book regarding the history and perspectives of the Book of Mormon
from historical as well as non-mormon perspective.  Chapter Eight on
"Dialogic Revelation" and the Book of Mormon's application of the principles
was truly eye-opening.
I have just started "Restoring the Ancient Church, Joseph Smith and Early
Christianity"  By Barry Bickmore.  It looks at the early Christian Church
and describes how it was corrupted and then how the early doctrines compare
so favorably with our current doctrines.  It looks very good.


Cool.  Terry and his wife Fiona were in our ward years ago.  I ran into her 
at Education week in '02.  She was buying a copy of his latest book. 8>))

Till

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Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 08:20 AM 11/7/2003 -0700, St George wrote:
That's fine, Till.  However I do not think you know the question in mind.

You see, I find Sec 132 more that supportative and I believe it to be true
as well.  It is the scriptures, including 132, that I find supportive.


With all due respect, my friend, I was referring specifically to the part 
where it says, with regards to those who have celestial marriage AND have 
been sealed by the holy spirit of promise, "then shall they be gods", as 
opposed to those who have not.  Of them. IIRC, it is said, "and that shall 
be the end of their glory" or some such.  Are we just talking past each 
other on semantics?  I take exaltation et al to mean the former of these 
two scenarios.  Elsewhere in the scriptures I recall reading that damnation 
is defined as having one's progression ended.  Certainly, I would concede, 
that to be a servant in the house of the most high would be far better than 
being a prince in a lesser kingdom, but still, it IS a cessation of 
progression.

Till, who has said his piece

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Re: [ZION] Commies and Pinkos

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 07:31 AM 11/7/2003 -0700, Br'er Tom wrote:

Oh no.  Is this a confession?
>
> Cornell!
>
> Till
Tom the concerned. ;->


When my 5th son was an undergraduate here, he used to complain all the time 
about some of his left-wing, commie professors, with their touchy-feely 
pseudo-intellectual clap-trap.  It was a treat to listen to him.  But then 
he calls his mother a socialist, too.

Till

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Re: [ZION] An Illustrious Group

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 07:52 AM 11/7/2003 -0700, Br'er Tom wrote:
Ah, but I miss the lush hills of Ithaca!!!  And the great people too.


Did you say we're lushes here?  The Hill's moved to Provo years ago, 
although he WAS back for a visit this summer.  It IS pretty country here, 
though.

Till

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RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 02:36 AM 11/7/2003 +, Gib Mij wrote:

Many of us take it seriously too.  As a single man I am working on
addressing this concern as quickly as sanity and comfort can afford.  I
have discovered that it is not an easy thing for an older man.


My friend, just care about all those around you, love them without any 
ulterior motives, do nice things for them without expectation of reward and 
one day one will love back.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 03:44 PM 11/6/2003 -0900, BLT wrote:
George Cobabe wrote:
As you know, John, when you ask the question I can testify that this is
true.  However there is more to the answer than what has been presented.
I would be delighted to discuss this topic with courtesy and good will, if
that would be possible.
If you have any information that current Church leaders support your view 
that all who obtain the Celestial Kingdom inherit eternal life, I would be 
interested.  Otherwise, I'd rather move on to something else.  I don't 
want Tom Matkin leaving the list again.  His views and mine are very much 
mainstream as stated in GOSPEL PRINCIPLES.


I find D&C 132 to be quite clear on this subject.  I'll sit quietly in the 
John and Tom camp, thank you.

Till

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Re: [ZION] An Illustrious Group

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 05:31 PM 11/6/2003 -0900, BLT wrote:
Tom Valletta has just joined us.


Yofi,  Welcome home Br'er Tom.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Commies and Pinkos

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 03:32 PM 11/6/2003 -0900, BLT wrote:

And if you go looking for commies and pinkos you still might be able to 
find some of them if you look in the right places:

China
North Korea
Cuba
Vietnam
Harvard
Yale
???
Cornell!

Till

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Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 11:28 AM 11/6/2003 -0900, BLT wrote:
Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation

Many people in the world consider marriage to be only a social custom, a 
legal agreement between a man and a woman to live together. But to 
Latter-day Saints, marriage is much more. Our exaltation depends on 
marriage. We believe that marriage is the most sacred relationship that 
can exist between a man and a woman. This sacred relationship affects our 
happiness now and in the eternities.

Heavenly Father has given us the law of eternal marriage so we can become 
like him. We must live this law to be able to have spirit children. The 
Lord has said:

"In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of 
the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

And if he does not, he cannot obtain it (D&C 131:1-3)."
---
Anyone disagree that this is official Church doctrine?  Our missionaries 
teach it to investigators and it is taught to all new members as part of 
the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class.  Is this controversial, or 
what?  Are any of the Brethren divided on this?


This, IMHO, is what we have to offer the world.  This is what sets us apart 
from the other "religions"  This is the essence of the gospel.  The other 
things all point to this.  There are other requirements along the way, but 
that's just the point, they're along the way.

Till

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RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 10:23 PM 11/5/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote:
Mormons talk too much, I think.


Ayup!

Till the wordy  (BTW, for some of you, that's down-east for yes)

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Re: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 02:24 PM 11/5/2003 -0700, St Steven wrote:

President Benson thought so. For instance, in his famous talk (Which he 
gave over 37 different times. Not only in General Conference but to 
Regional Conferences, Regional Representatives Seminars, reprinted as the 
1st Presidency Message in the Ensign, and in various wards he visited) 
entitled, "The Book of Mormon is the Word of God," he stated that the 
second major purpose of the Book of Mormon was to expose, "the enemies of 
Christ. It confounds false doctrines and lays down contention. (See 2 
Nephi 3:12.) It fortifies the humble followers of Christ against the evil 
designs, strategies, and doctrines of the devil in our day. The type of 
apostates in the Book of Mormon are similar to the type we have today. 
God, with his infinite foreknowledge, so molded the Book of Mormon that we 
might see the error and know how to combat false educational, political, 
religious, and philosophical concepts of our time."

I, for one, cannot read Alma chapter 30 without coming to the same 
conclusion that President Benson did. Korihor was exhibiting many of the 
philosophies we here about today. Such as atheism, secular humanism, and 
survival of the fittest.


Yes, it's the such-as-ez that I'm interested in hearing about.  How do 
their attitudes/philosophies play out today?  I don't know much about 
secular humanism, for example.  What are the similarities? the arguments? 
What other philosophies?

Till the ign'r'nt

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[ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 04:50 PM 11/5/2003 +, Gary wrote:

What is important is that we don't twist that love as did Nehor and as do 
many today, to excuse their sinful natures.


Has anyone taken the time and energy to look at the Anti-Christs in the 
Book of Mormon, such as Nehors, Korihor and company, to see how their 
"philosophies" play out in today's society?  Since there's nothing new 
under the sun, I suspect that all of these abominations appear today, 
probably rather thinly cloaked, in the hype of today's "cool" 
thinking.  And also, for some reason or other, the phrase "how will our 
faces look when we are damned" or something to that effect, while Alma and 
Amulek are being taunted, keeps coming back to mind.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 07:42 AM 11/5/2003 -0700, St George wrote:
I would be happy to teach Mother Theresa about the nature of God.  Could you
arrange a meeting?


Your place or hers?

Till

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RE: [ZION] Welcome to the List, Ron

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 09:15 AM 11/5/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote:

Ad hominem defined: he who defines the term, can always redefine it to
justify his attacks.
But thanks, Till. I hope my differences of opinion aren't inferred (again)
as ad hominems, but are regarded as they are intended: challenges to beliefs
and practices that I don't think are consistent with the gospel Christ
preached.


No, no, I have been thoroughly enjoying and enlightened by this 
discussion.  I just have allergic memories of some former Zion 
discussions.  You'se guys are doing just great so far.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Nice to Get Old

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 11:16 AM 11/4/2003 -0900, BLT wrote:
Well, there is one nice thing about getting old: auto insurance.  I just 
bought some today, and I was impressed with how inexpensive it is compared 
with what it has been in years past.  Of course, my teenaged son just 
moved out.  That might be part of the reason.


If you really miss the high rates, John, you could always come to NY and 
get your insurance.  Why I stay here is a complete mystery to me.  Having 
one's house paid for and half-decent jobs is a secure feeling, I suppose it 
might have something to do with it.  I'd hate to have to pay a house 
payment again.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Welcome to the List, Ron

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 10:57 AM 11/4/2003 -0900, BLT wrote:

There is no mystery, Ron.  The list has been pretty dead lately, and I 
thought that you might liven things up a bit.  You are not bashful about 
posting, and some difference of opinion stimulates discussion.


I'm with John, here.  I really appreciate the difference of opinions, as 
long as they don't turn into ad hominem shouting matches. (we have grown 
some, haven't we?)  Besides, Ron's a nice guy and I likes to hang around 
with all-around-nice-guys

Till

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[ZION] Election Day

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

Don't forget to vote early and vote often.

Till

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RE: [ZION] Wish List

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 11:55 PM 11/3/2003 +, Ron wrote:

Didn't know I was a foil. But, if I wasn't a kosher kind of guy I could
go for a BLT.  What is a BLT, anyway?
BTW, Elmer, my youngest is dancing the Nutcracker.

Don't know why JWR recruited me, but I've never known an invitation I
didn't accept, especially from him.


Well blow me over with a sneeze!  I've wondered how you've been 
doing.  Rebekah has finally retired from dancing with companies and is 
serving a mission in Sao Paulo Norte.  Christopher is still dancing and is 
opening his own company in San Antonio this season.  It's really good to 
hear from you.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Wish List

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 05:26 PM 11/2/2003 -0900, you wrote:
I am compiling a wish list of people I miss, people that I wish would 
actively participate on the list.  Would any of you care to help me make 
my wish list?


I can think of three quickly.

Patty Crossett, Ron Scott (always good as a foil for the BLT), and D. Craig 
Huls.  These are three that I have met face to face.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Starts with F "Gossip"

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 10:25 AM 11/3/2003 -0700, Uncle Presidente wrote:


You ask yourself these three simple questions:

1.  Is this fact about so and so kind?

2.  Do I have undisputable knowledge of it, in other words, is it
true?
3.  Does the person I'm planning to share this with have a need to
know?


I suspect there are breakdowns in the system.  Using your pregnancy 
example, I remember an instance where I was privy to such information, 
looked on favorably by the individual involved (quite excited, actually) 
(kindness test).  I was given this information in confidence directly from 
the source (knowledge test).  There were people who had a need to know (the 
family for example), but I know that I was correct in letting the 
individual personally disseminate the knowledge when and where she chose 
and just keep it to myself until it was a matter of public 
knowledge.  Generally, though, I think it's a pretty sound test.

Till

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Re: [PMX:#] [ZION] Harold Bloom

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 04:32 PM 10/31/2003 +, Gary wrote:

Oh, and BTW, I'm here, too.  Perhaps I'll stay a while, depending on the 
tenor of the discussions.


Oh, good.  John and I will sing bass!

Till

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Re: [ZION] Starts With G

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 02:50 PM 10/30/2003 -0700, Uncle Tom Presidente wrote:
Think of how many things that start with G need to be taught (learned?).


how about galloping gruff gregarious goats?  gastric? grease? gangly? 
groovy? gravy? garters?  oops

Till

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Re: [ZION] Roll Call

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 10:59 AM 10/30/2003 -0900, you wrote:
Some former list members are returning.  Hallelujah!  I'm interested in 
finding out who is still here.  Let's have a roll call.

How about you Elmer Fairbanks?
We're not sure about him.  But Attilla the ELF is still alive and well


Can anyone think of a way to get Tom Valletta back on here?  I think that 
Elmer said he was off his mission.
He finished July 1.  The last email address I have is from January of 2002, 
so I doubt it's still good.  He's now director of Curriculum, so he 
shouldn't be too hard to track down.



Are you there Tammy Reber?


Now that would be a real treat!

We suspect that folks are busy trying to keep the kingdom of God alive in 
their own little corners of the vineyard.  Some of us have been wearing 
ourselves out.

Till the naughty

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Re: [PMX:#] [ZION] the Need for Speed

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 07:33 AM 10/9/2003 -0400, you wrote:
Maybe it was just Elder Packer's.  Oh, the joys of aging!

Till the muddled

OK, I just played the video feed.  It was Elder Packer, followed by Elder 
Hales.  Those were the two.  Strong, clear testimonies for our day.

Till the penitent





At 01:14 AM 10/9/2003 +, you wrote:

It's Wednesday night at 9 pm and the phone rings.

(You already know what's coming, don't you?)

The bishopric (of our newest ward in Marysville, Michigan) just asked us 
to give talks on Sunday.  Oh, and for Cherie to teach the Gossip Doctrine 
class.

The topic(s)?  (Of the talks, not of the GD class!)  Either something we 
learned in General Conference, one of the talks, or on the process of 
listening and learning from our prophets, seers, revelators, and just 
plain good ol' folks who spoke to us from that old tree stump that became 
a podium.

So we're sifting through our notes (when we really should be asleep, 
since we have an early morning tomorrow) and thought we'd ask some of the 
most Gospel-Wise people we know what they might do after a similar call.

To tell the truth, I think this request may be a bit of inspiration.  I 
think I'm supposed to share something I'll hear from one of you.

Thanks - in advance - to anyone who is willing to share.  Cherie & I each 
wish we could be with each of you in person, having a wonderful time 
talking about this super conference we experienced last weekend.

*jeep!
 ~~Chet
"If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong." Gus 
Segar via Popeye


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Re: [PMX:#] [ZION] the Need for Speed

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

Maybe it was just Elder Packer's.  Oh, the joys of aging!

Till the muddled



At 01:14 AM 10/9/2003 +, you wrote:

It's Wednesday night at 9 pm and the phone rings.

(You already know what's coming, don't you?)

The bishopric (of our newest ward in Marysville, Michigan) just asked us 
to give talks on Sunday.  Oh, and for Cherie to teach the Gossip Doctrine 
class.

The topic(s)?  (Of the talks, not of the GD class!)  Either something we 
learned in General Conference, one of the talks, or on the process of 
listening and learning from our prophets, seers, revelators, and just 
plain good ol' folks who spoke to us from that old tree stump that became 
a podium.

So we're sifting through our notes (when we really should be asleep, since 
we have an early morning tomorrow) and thought we'd ask some of the most 
Gospel-Wise people we know what they might do after a similar call.

To tell the truth, I think this request may be a bit of inspiration.  I 
think I'm supposed to share something I'll hear from one of you.

Thanks - in advance - to anyone who is willing to share.  Cherie & I each 
wish we could be with each of you in person, having a wonderful time 
talking about this super conference we experienced last weekend.

*jeep!
 ~~Chet
"If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong." Gus 
Segar via Popeye


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Re: [PMX:#] [ZION] the Need for Speed

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

Chet,

I was strongly impressed by Elder Faust's talk on Saturday afternoon.  It 
was followed by Elder Packer.  The two together were a real pair of 
zingers.  I see the text isn't on-line yet, but should be soon.

ELF



At 01:14 AM 10/9/2003 +, you wrote:

It's Wednesday night at 9 pm and the phone rings.

(You already know what's coming, don't you?)

The bishopric (of our newest ward in Marysville, Michigan) just asked us 
to give talks on Sunday.  Oh, and for Cherie to teach the Gossip Doctrine 
class.

The topic(s)?  (Of the talks, not of the GD class!)  Either something we 
learned in General Conference, one of the talks, or on the process of 
listening and learning from our prophets, seers, revelators, and just 
plain good ol' folks who spoke to us from that old tree stump that became 
a podium.

So we're sifting through our notes (when we really should be asleep, since 
we have an early morning tomorrow) and thought we'd ask some of the most 
Gospel-Wise people we know what they might do after a similar call.

To tell the truth, I think this request may be a bit of inspiration.  I 
think I'm supposed to share something I'll hear from one of you.

Thanks - in advance - to anyone who is willing to share.  Cherie & I each 
wish we could be with each of you in person, having a wonderful time 
talking about this super conference we experienced last weekend.

*jeep!
 ~~Chet
"If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong." Gus 
Segar via Popeye


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RE: [ZION] Thought for the day

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 09:58 AM 9/22/2003 -0500, Hei..y the Fair wrote:
Hey, it's Monday...it's rainy...I didn't use my spellchecker...

:-)
Heidi (who almost just typo'ed her own name!)


We're afraid to ask, so don't tell.

Till

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RE: [ZION] Thought for the day

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 08:50 AM 9/22/2003 -0600, St Steven wrote:
At 08:44 AM 9/22/2003, you wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Works for me!  Especially if it's Dove or Lindt chocolate!
My favorite is Cadbury Royal Dark.  In fact, I like them so much that I 
just bought 15 bars and a Rubbermaid container to keep them in.  They 
sell them here in Juneau; but when I get back to Ketchikan, I won't have 
access to them. --JWR
What are you doing in Juneau?


Does Till sense that maybe the BLT has become a politician, maybe sitting 
in the State Senate?  Building a base to run for President?  What say, gov'ner?

Till

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Re: [ZION] Crying Babies

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 06:39 AM 9/22/2003 -0800, BKT wrote:
Once all possible needs have been addressed, there is something satisfying 
about letting a baby cry until she finally gives it up.  The sisters are 
not especially good at this, but I can do it just fine. --JWR


That's 'cause your hearing has gone south, my ddd friend!

Till the ever watchful.

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RE: [ZION] Thought for the day

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 09:38 AM 9/22/2003 -0500, the amazing Heidi the Fair wrote:
Works for me!  Especially if it's Dove or Lindt chocolate!

By the way, Job...aren't you in North Carolina?  If so, did you sustain any
damage from Isabel?


Heidi is now in correspondence with a real hero.  Shall we all sit and give 
him "comfort"?

Just picking, Heidi  8>))  I hope Jon faired better temporally than his 
typo-namesake.  May we all fare as well as he in other matters, however.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

John (BLT) and I once attended a presentation on Paul's Views on Women 
given by none other than our own (AWOL) Tom Valetta.  Tom has now been 
released as Mission President and should be back available for 
comment.  John??  It was a great presentation.   IIRC, he maintained that 
it was Greek influence that has degraded their societal position even into 
our own times.  But it would be much better to hear it from Tom.

Till



At 08:47 AM 9/10/2003 -0600, Sir George wrote:
I do not think that the scriptures bear that out at all, rather the
opposite.
I will admit, readilly, that the social customs of that time are different
from those of our time.  And it may be that a superficial look at the
practices may make them look unacceptable to us today.  But when we take
time to truly understand their situation we would find the kind of
relationship that would warrent the comparison with our desired relationship
with Christ.
George

- Original Message -
From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
>
> On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:55:36 -0600 George Cobabe
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Paul, before you go through a tirade like that you really ought to
>
>
> Well, I've looked at the subject and from what I have read about the Jews
> they treated their woman like second class citizens. Don't the scriptures
> bear that out? I've read a lot of material about the Egyptians and they
> treated their woman descent with a lot more rights then the Jews ever
> gave their woman. The ancient Jews were a cruel people, IMNSHO.
>
> What does Tag have to say?
>
> Paul O
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
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>

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Re: [ZION] Help needed for a quotation

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 07:26 AM 9/9/2003 -0600, St Steven wrote:
At 05:45 AM 9/9/2003, you wrote:
At 06:16 PM 9/8/2003 -0600,St Steven wrote:
Help. I'm in need of a quote. It's a quote from General Conference which 
says (paraphrased) that in the coming years there will be greater and 
greater division of the righteous from the wicked. That the righteous 
will get more righteous and the wicked more wicked, or words to that 
effect. There must be someone here will have that at their fingertips .


I, too, remembered that one, but had not been able to remember when.  I 
just did a search and have come up with the following from the April 1983 
Conference, Elder Dean L. Larson.  It is pretty much as I remembered 
hearing it.  They are wise words with which I have tried to guide my life 
since then.  As he says, it's not always easy.  I often see the Saints 
following a few steps behind (myself included, embarrassed to say).




Thanks, but John provided the quote I was searching for:

The General Conference address that comes to mind is "I Testify" by 
President Ezra Taft Benson who said in October 1988 conference:
"I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer's leadership 
and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, 
there will be growing battles between the two until the final 
confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind 
will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of 
God or for the kingdom of the devil. As these conflicts rage, either 
secretly or openly, the righteous will be tested. God's wrath will soon 
shake the nations of the earth and will be poured out on the wicked 
without measure. (See JS-H 1:45; D&C 1:9.) But God will provide strength 
for the righteous and the means of escape; and eventually and finally 
truth will triumph." (See 1 Ne. 22:15-23.)


That's OK.  I've been wanting to find that other quote anyway.  It's also a 
keeper.  I've referred to it a number of times without having the exact 
citation. Amazing how consistent the words of the prophets are.  Pres ETB 
doesn't mince any words here, does he?  I see that alignment starting to 
take place.  The day of the fence sitter is nearly gone.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Help needed for a quotation

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 06:16 PM 9/8/2003 -0600,St Steven wrote:
Help. I'm in need of a quote. It's a quote from General Conference which 
says (paraphrased) that in the coming years there will be greater and 
greater division of the righteous from the wicked. That the righteous will 
get more righteous and the wicked more wicked, or words to that effect. 
There must be someone here will have that at their fingertips .


I, too, remembered that one, but had not been able to remember when.  I 
just did a search and have come up with the following from the April 1983 
Conference, Elder Dean L. Larson.  It is pretty much as I remembered 
hearing it.  They are wise words with which I have tried to guide my life 
since then.  As he says, it's not always easy.  I often see the Saints 
following a few steps behind (myself included, embarrassed to say).



The challenging conditions we find in the world today should be no surprise 
to us. As we approach the time of the Saviors return, wickedness will 
increase. There will be more temptations in our daily lives, and they will 
become more intense. It will become more acceptable in the world to break 
the laws of God or to disregard them altogether. The stigma attached to 
immoral, dishonest behavior will disappear.

In this difficult environment we will be expected to steer our own course 
in an upward direction. As President Kimball has warned us, it will neither 
be acceptable nor safe to remain on the plateaus where our present conduct 
has kept us. Abrupt downward forces, represented by increasing wickedness 
in the world, can only be offset by forces that move correspondingly 
upward. Our lives must be better than they have ever been before. This 
simply means that we will become increasingly different from those around 
us whose lives follow the worlds way. It is not easy to be different. There 
are intense pressures that work against us. But we must clearly understand 
that it is not safe to move in the same direction the world is moving, even 
though we remain slightly behind the pace they set. Such a course will 
eventually lead us to the same problems and heartaches. It will not permit 
us to perform the work the Lord has chosen us to do. It would disqualify us 
from his blessing and his protecting care.

The Lord has said that the time will come when there will be an entire 
separation of the righteous and the 
wicked.(D&C 63:54.) Nephi, in the 
Book of Mormon, said, For the time speedily cometh that the Lord God shall 
cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he 
destroy.(2 Ne. 30:10.)

As we consider these promises, we should not forget the warning given by 
the Lord to the Latter-day Saints. Nevertheless, Zion shall escape if she 
observe to do all things whatsoever I have commanded her.


Till





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Re: [ZION] The Meaning of the Olive Press or the Winepress in Practical Terms

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

Don't overlook the symbolism of the well of living water, the water of 
life, and the water of rebirth.  Also, IIRC, the use of water was a 
practical solution to a societal problem, referenced in the Doctrine and 
Covenants.

Till

At 01:13 PM 9/8/2003 -0400, you wrote:
The overwhelming majority of the liquid content of blood is water and, for 
that matter, the same goes with grapejuice.  When you think of it that 
way, it works.

Tom

Stacy Smith wrote:

I may be a dunce on this one, but where is the true symbolism of Jesus' 
lifeblood being crushed out of him and him being bruised for our 
iniquities with the current use of water in our Sacrament?  With grape 
juice we'd have the proper symbolism, but I fail to see the proper 
symbolism represented with water.  I'm not criticizing our use of water 
but only trying to understand.

Stacy.

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RE: [ZION] Temple Defilement

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 10:23 AM 8/21/2003 -0500, St Stacy wrote:
That's what I would hope is that they have no power to really defile the 
temple.  Look at what happened to the first Nauvoo temple!


I have been pondering this thread.  Certainly if WE go unworthily we heap 
coals of condemnation upon our OWN heads.  The question of actual temple 
defilement is one that is not so easy to untangle.  Certainly temples have 
been "officially" defiled in the past and need rededicating etc.  Solomon's 
temple comes to mind.  Clearly, not every occurrence of the presence of an 
unworthy person will defile the temple or there would be many more 
rededications than we have ever experienced.  The question becomes one of 
at what point is it considered defiled.  Perhaps it is related to the 
performance of unauthorized ordinances.  I'm hearing shades here of "the 
abomination of desolation"  Could we be discussing a very disturbing sign 
of the times?

ELF

Elmer L. Fairbank   N2OKConsultant/Advisor
Molecular Biology & GeneticsCornell University
G63 Biotech Bldg607-255-2147
check out my web page:   http://elf.mbg.cornell.edu 

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Re: [ZION] The September Six Today

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 07:08 AM 8/20/2003 -0600, St Steven wrote:
At 07:44 PM 8/19/2003, Jon wrote:

What I find interesting is that of those whose works I have read, I found
only Gileadi to be inspired, long before I knew that he had been ex'ed.  My
understanding of Isaiah expanded tremendously when I read his first book
(well, the first one of his that I read).  The others left me cold.  Isn't
it interesting that it was he and he alone who humbled himself.
Jon
Avraham Gileadi's best and most inspired book, in my opinion, was, _The 
Book of Isaiah: A New Translation with Interpretative Keys from the Book 
of Mormon_. But more specifically, the 93 page introduction where one is 
introduced to the various interpretative keys. Whatever Gileadi's past 
mistakes might have been, I too am impressed by his humility.


I, too, have the utmost respect for Brother Gileadi's insights into such an 
important work as Isaiah.  I refuse to go the route of speculating.  By his 
works I will know him.   The others that were talked about gave me feelings 
of having pushed my hand into a warm bucket of 3 month old milk.

ELF

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Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 08:58 PM 8/11/2003 -0400, Grampa Bill wrote:
Paul Osborne wrote:

I'm brutally honest just like JR is but with less tact.

Grampa Bill asks:
   Less tact than JR?
Hard to believe! :-)


Till says:  Hard to conceive!

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Re: [ZION] Mars

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 11:06 AM 7/31/2003 -0600, you wrote:
At 09:03 AM 7/31/2003, Till wrote:


Yes, I chose the term carefully.  Christ does, in fact, serve as a bridge 
for us between darkness and light.  It is only through him that we are 
able to cross the gulf.  BTW, I saw Mars a couple mornings ago, just 
before you posted this original, and it was pretty impressive. (it's 
pretty impressive, actually, when we can see the sky through the clouds, 
but that's a story for another day)

Till
Even more impressive when you live at 5800 feet altitude in a relatively 
rural area . Here in Enoch the night sky never ceases to amaze me.


Only 1550' here, but VERY rural.  When the clouds are gone, the sky is 
always impressive.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Mars

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 05:59 AM 7/31/2003 -0600, St Steven wrote:
At 05:24 AM 7/31/2003, you wrote:
At 11:10 AM 7/30/2003 -0600, St Steven wrote:

Or, could Mars be playing out a grand spectacular nighttime 
drama--symbolic of the struggle between Christ and Satan?  In other 
words, Is Mars playing the role of the great usurper--challenging Christ 
(The Planet Venus) for supremacy. Mars rules the night (symbolic itself 
of Satan and his darkness) but never quite attains the brightness of the 
planet Venus. Is Mars symbolic of Satan when he appeared to Moses, 
appearing as an angel of "light" but because Satan's light was more or 
less that of darkness (Moses 1: 13-14) Moses was able to detect Satan as 
the deceiver and usurper that he was?


It is interesting, is it not,  that Venus stands as a bridge between the 
night and the day. Seems like a beautiful piece of symbolism to this old 
codger.

Till
Hmmm. I like that term "bridge."


Yes, I chose the term carefully.  Christ does, in fact, serve as a bridge 
for us between darkness and light.  It is only through him that we are able 
to cross the gulf.  BTW, I saw Mars a couple mornings ago, just before you 
posted this original, and it was pretty impressive. (it's pretty 
impressive, actually, when we can see the sky through the clouds, but 
that's a story for another day)

Till

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Re: [ZION] Mars

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 11:10 AM 7/30/2003 -0600, St Steven wrote:

Or, could Mars be playing out a grand spectacular nighttime 
drama--symbolic of the struggle between Christ and Satan?  In other words, 
Is Mars playing the role of the great usurper--challenging Christ (The 
Planet Venus) for supremacy. Mars rules the night (symbolic itself of 
Satan and his darkness) but never quite attains the brightness of the 
planet Venus. Is Mars symbolic of Satan when he appeared to Moses, 
appearing as an angel of "light" but because Satan's light was more or 
less that of darkness (Moses 1: 13-14) Moses was able to detect Satan as 
the deceiver and usurper that he was?


It is interesting, is it not,  that Venus stands as a bridge between the 
night and the day. Seems like a beautiful piece of symbolism to this old 
codger.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure and ...

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 09:22 PM 7/13/2003 -0800, BLT wrote:

Still, the only thing that keeps me going is the fact that it won't last 
forever.  Death will bring some relief when it finally comes.  All I have 
to do is endure to the end.


Relief from what, John?Us  We're here to take care of 
eachother.   I well know how bleak things look from inside a depression, 
but all in all, Till would say that we have a lot going for us.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure and ...

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 01:55 PM 7/13/2003 -0500, St Stacy wrote:
What would such a test consist of?  Physical 
endurance?  Brainwashing?  Torture or something less diabolical such as 
integrity?  What about martyrdom?  Can we have any stories?


Till suspects that those what has them would rather not tell them.

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Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure and the Fact that Most

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 10:03 AM 7/13/2003 -0600, Cousin St George wrote:

One of the points that ought to worry you that is not on your list is the
idea that you will be tried to the limit of your ability.  Just like Abraham
was tested so you will  be tested - differently but as severe.  Just as
others that we can list have been tested so will you.
How can you expect to be in the presence of such men and women unless you
have a similar heritage of proving yourself?


Ouch!   Till tends not to dwell on that one.

Till the wienie

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Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure and the Fact that Most

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 10:03 AM 7/13/2003 -0600, Cousin St George wrote:

One of the points that ought to worry you that is not on your list is the
idea that you will be tried to the limit of your ability.  Just like Abraham
was tested so you will  be tested - differently but as severe.  Just as
others that we can list have been tested so will you.
How can you expect to be in the presence of such men and women unless you
have a similar heritage of proving yourself?


Ouch  Till tends to not like to dwell on that one.

Till the wienie

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Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure and the Fact that Most

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 07:52 AM 7/13/2003 -0400, you wrote:
Paul Osborne wrote to our BLT:

I'm a bigger jerk than you and that's pretty bad!  ;-)


Grampa Bill comments:
   But Till lives in a deeper (and more humble) hole than either of you.


Yes, yes, and his floor is so covered with electrons from all the back 
e-mail that he can hardly crawl through them without drowning.

Actually, his mother just had an emergency valve replacement and triple 
by-pass Monday.  She has been getting more and more frail lately.  Guess 
that's why.  She was up and moving around a little and sounding in pretty 
good spirits last night.  I'm making (yet another) pilgrimage to Rochester 
tonight to see her.

Till

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[ZION] Pres Kimball

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

Every week, in my letter to my missionary, I try to include what I regard 
to be a significant conference talk.  This week I revisited Pres Kimball's 
address to the priesthood in Nov 1978.  I remember listening to that talk, 
in the days before we had any video feed, late at night and fading in and 
out of consciousness.  I had worked in the woods all day cutting wood, and 
by 09 PM, when PH meeting started, I was about comatose**. I started out in 
the chapel, but eventually moved to the comfy chairs in the lobby.  By the 
time Pres Kimball gave this famous address, I was laid out flat on the 
floor in the lobby, barely able to hang on.  But his words sunk deep.  I 
have not hunted since that time, although I would if it were necessary for 
food.  Killing and harming has had no pleasure, no thrill after hearing 
what he had to say.  I guess what I'm getting to is that even though I was 
almost past consciousness, the words of the prophets sank deep into my 
heart, as no arrow could.  I am so glad to have the prophets to guide us 
and direct us.  If we could all listen to the words they say and heed them 
all the time, what power would be in this church!

Till

** I always like to think it was me that night that got the PH meeting time 
changed  8>)) such vain creatures we are





Fundamental Principles to Ponder and Live

President Spencer W. Kimball

It is a great joy to greet the priesthood of the Church this glorious 
night. All over the world we gather to worship the Lord and give him praise.

My brothers in the priesthood, it was a great thrill recently to have tens 
of thousands of the sisters of the Church assemble in hundreds of places 
around the world in a special meeting for the women of the Church. You will 
have had your own reports from your wives and sisters, mothers, and 
daughters about the meeting. We feel gratified that we were able to hold 
the meeting and that technology made it possible. We love the women of the 
Church! We have great respect for them.

In following up on that event, I want to counsel you as sons, brothers, 
fathers, and husbands. As you serve with the women of the Church, follow 
what Paul said when he urged Timothy to intreat & the elder women as 
mothers; the younger as sisters, with all 
purity(1 Tim. 5:1-2). We men of 
the priesthood ought to so do. We must be different than other men, and I 
am sure most priesthood holders are. Pauls suggestion that we treat older 
women as if they were our mothers and younger women as if they were our 
sisters and to do so with all purityis excellent instruction. Men of the 
world may disregard women or see them only as objects of desire or as 
someone to be used for selfish purposes. Let us, however, be different in 
our conduct and in our relationships with women.

Peter urged us to give honor unto our wives. (See 
1 Pet. 3:7.) It seems to me we 
should be even more courteous to our wives and mothers, our sisters and our 
daughters, than we are to others. When Paul said that a man who did not 
provide for his own and those of his own household was worse than an 
infidel(1 Tim. 5:8), I like to think 
of providing for our own as including providing them with affectional 
security as well as economic security. When the Lord told us in this 
dispensation that women have claim on their husbands for their 
maintenance(D&C 83:2), I like to think 
of maintenance as including our obligation to maintain loving affection and 
to provide consideration and thoughtfulness as well as food.

President Lee once observed that the needyaround us may need friendship and 
fellowship as well as food. I sometimes think our own Latter-day Saint 
women are needyjust because some of us are not as thoughtful and 
considerate of them as we should be. Our pantries can be filled with food 
and yet our sisters can be starved for affection and recognition.

Let us, brethren, support the sisters of our household in their Church 
callings as they so wonderfully support us. Let us not neglect them simply 
because they sometimes go on being good even when they are neglected.

Let our homes be filled with praise and commendation for all those of our 
household. Let us also, brethren, not get so concerned with our priesthood 
peers, those men we are associated with in our church assignments, that we 
neglect our eternal companions, for our association with our wives will be 
forever.

Our Father in Heaven was gracious enough to give to us for our pleasure and 
convenience all life on earth. Let me read to you from his personal statement:

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature 
that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament 
of heaven.

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is 
upon the face of all the earth, and e

Re: [ZION] hand shakes

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 06:32 AM 6/25/2003 -0500, this time Uncle Ronn really did write:


Just for clarity: not me!


Yeah, I noticed that after I had pushed the send button

Till

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Re: [ZION] hand shakes

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 10:05 AM 6/24/2003 -0600, Uncle Ronn wrote:
I'm beginning to think that perhaps people should be exposed to as many 
germs as possible, starting with early childhood. That way the body can 
build up its immune system and develop resistance to as many germs and 
viruses as possible. For example, I exposed my children to chickenpox when 
they were young (and at the best age to handle such a disease, as opposed 
to when they are middle aged or older and have more severe complications) 
and they have never had any problems since.

This is what my immunologist friends tell me.

Till

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Re: [PMX:##] RE: [ZION] hand shakes

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

t 04:40 PM 6/20/2003 +, St Paul wrote:
Does anyone feel like me? I feel my complaints are noteworthy.It's a good 
idea to wash you hands after shaking. Wouldn't you say?


Sounds to me like you're advocating the washing of hands BEFORE 
shaking!  There IS pretty good scriptural support for the custom.  I would 
be unhappy to see it disappear.

ELF

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Re: [PMX:#] RE: [ZION] Test

[Elmer L Fairbank]

At 16:35 6/2/2003 +, St Larry wrote:

Till:

That plane wouldn't have been Air France would it?

___

No, but I can't tell you who it was, sorry.


I remember almost 40 years ago watching planes touch down at the Montreal 
airport and all the Air France birds would come bouncing in just like you 
described.

Till

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Re: [PMX:#] RE: [ZION] Test

[Elmer L Fairbank]

At 10:14 5/31/2003 -0500, Sir Larry wrote:

No bounce at this end.  You message landed with a
solid thud.  But, not to waste a perfectly good email:
Many years ago at an international airport, I was in an
airplane behind a British Airways airliner.  We were both
waiting for an airliner from another country to land before
we were to depart.
The other plane came in, hit solidly on the painted numbers
at the end of the runway, and bounced several feet back up
into the air.  The second time he hit the runway it was nearly
as hard, and he bounced again.  The third time, with some
wing wobbling, the plane finally settled down and the pilot
slowed to safely taxi off the runway.
Before the tower could clear the next plane for takeoff,
a distinctly British voice came on the air and said,
"Well, that's one way of doing it."


That plane wouldn't have been Air France would it?

Till

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Re: [ZION] I'm all shook up.

[Elmer L Fairbank]

At 11:42 5/27/2003 -0400, St Jon wrote:
Larry Jackson wrote:

> My earthquake story isn't nearly as exciting, sorry.

I actually have several other exciting earthquake stories (in a car with
transformers power blowing up around me and power lines dropping, in a house
on a cliff overlooking the ocean, etc.) , but you'll just have to buy the
book.


Yeah, we have to buy the book to see whether or not Jon lived!  8>))

Till

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Re: [ZION] Moral War

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 10:56 1/23/2003 -0900, BLT wrote:


Fundamental principle:  Self-defense is OK.  Everything else is unlawful.

1) We defend ourselves even if it means shedding blood.
2) We never give offense.
3) We never fight except to preserve our lives.
4) We only fight when God commands us to fight.



I don't have the reference handy here, but there is somewhat in the D&C? 
about Abraham's rules of engagement.  I think these should be added to this 
list (or at least the list corrected to include them).  I won't comment on 
current state of affairs as it's principles that are being discussed first.

Till who adjusted the flint in his musket last night

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Re: Fwd: Re: [ZION] Notice from Listowner

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 09:03 12/23/2002 -0500, you wrote:

At 09:01 12/23/2002 -0500, Till tested:

St Stacy queried:



How do we forward replies over there?



I'm testing this right now.  It should be to cut and paste 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] into the "To:" field.  If you don't get this 
message, let me know!


I've gotten it back via smartgroups, I'm still watiing for the topica to 
come back.


OK, got it back through both venues.   Just do the cut and paste like I 
suggested until the traffic switches over.

Till

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Re: Fwd: Re: [ZION] Notice from Listowner

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 09:01 12/23/2002 -0500, Till tested:

St Stacy queried:



How do we forward replies over there?



I'm testing this right now.  It should be to cut and paste 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] into the "To:" field.  If you don't get this 
message, let me know!


I've gotten it back via smartgroups, I'm still watiing for the topica to 
come back.

Till

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Fwd: Re: [ZION] Notice from Listowner

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

St Stacy queried:



How do we forward replies over there?



I'm testing this right now.  It should be to cut and paste 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] into the "To:" field.  If you don't get this 
message, let me know!


Till

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Re: [ZION] Natural Law

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 00:50 12/20/2002 -0900, the venerable BLT wrote:


There is a law which God must obey, one that is above him.  Call it 
"natural law" or anything else you like.  Because mankind is at an 
infantile stage of development compared with God, we probably don't even 
know what the laws are by which God came to be God.  But we may be sure 
that they exist.


Well said, John.  Exactly the way I feel about it.  I have all I can do to 
keep up with the puny laws we have.   Like J Golden, I may not walk the 
straight and narrow, but I try to cross it as often as I can.

Till the there is no end to priesthood, there is no end to love

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 16:26 12/19/2002 -0500, St Jon wrote:

Unfortunately, if I think too long about it, I start to disappear.
So I'll stop now.  My wife and kids (hopefully) would miss me.




My, aren't you fortunate.  I doubt mine would.   Somebody would plunk down 
in Archie's chair, and then, not being empty, it would never be 
noticed.  Actually, that reminds me of a story when I worked at the Gun 
company.  I worked with an old Swede who was always making special tools 
for special jobs (Jahhh!).  He kept them in holes on his bench and always 
had a cow if one was missing.  One day, when he was out, we drilled a new 
hole in his bench and he spent weeks trying to find the tool that was "missing"


Till

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Re: [ZION] "Dr" Red Green was right all along

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 22:02 12/19/2002 -0500, Princess Val queried:


OK--my question--how DOES the duct tape work on a wart?





Very well, thank you.











Actually, warts are aerobic viruses,  I'm told, and need oxygen to 
thrive.  Duct tape would effectively snufficate the little boogers, I suppose.


Till the ever helpful

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Re: [ZION] Where do old hippies go?

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 13:50 12/19/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote:

I thought this one was good for a chuckle...

http://www.globeandmail.ca/series/cartoon/19thuedcar.html



Sad but true.  I think Ithaca is like the elephant graveyard for these 
folks.  Somebody once remarked about witnessing the death of a 
counter-culture, but it still seems to be wheezing.

Till

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RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 04:15 12/20/2002 +0800, His Grace, Bishop Mark wrote:


> >Probably so. I would weep for your pitiful, ignorant state, but you're
> >above my visual range.
>
>
> Hey wait, those are my lines.   John, Stephen's stealing my 
schtick.  Can't
> you make him play nice?

Doggone it, would you folks just hold your horses please.  Don't make me 
come down there.


Doors always open, my friend.  Just get hold of me off-line to get directions

Till

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Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 12:46 12/19/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote:

I knew it was familiar for some reason, although I can't say I'd ever 
heard of it
being used in place of or with cocoa (but it does explain one thing I 
remember:
cans labelled "Karob" in German supermarkets next to the coffee and tea). 
And I'm
sorry, I've already forgotten who it was who posted the excellent lttle 
article on
carobs yesterday, because I wanted to add a comment to that.

Its other names are  "locust bean" and "St. John's Bread" in the belief 
that when
it said in the NT that John the Baptist ate honey and locust, modern 
translators
couldn't see him actually eating insects. Besides the yuck factor, they 
thought it
wasn't kosher. However, locusts are indeed kosher, it turns out, (Leviticus
11:20-21) and the Greek word in the NT refers quite clearly to an insect.

So he really did eat bugs.


Somehow, we knew about the kosher part.  The Greek?  Well, it's all greek 
to me.


Till the BTW Back-bacon's not kosher!

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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 20:41 12/19/2002 +, Gib Mij wrote:


Paul Osborne wrote:
---
Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty
there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have
ended.
---

Yes, and I certainly hope you will have completed your 
home*[teaching]*work by then!


Till who inserted his editorial above 8>))

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Re: [ZION] Carob beans

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 05:30 12/19/2002 +, Gib Mij clarifies in his inimitable manner:

Carob is a unique substance that has an appearance similar to cocoa. It
comes from the Ceratonia siliqua, an evergreen tree native to the
Eastern Mediterranean area. This relatively wild tree, which grows up to
50 feet tall, bears fruit at the age of six to eight years with a
greater abundance of fruit every other year. The average annual yield
per tree is 200-250 lbs. of fruit. Carob, or St. John's Bread, as it is
commonly known, is a large (4-12 inch long) dried, bean-like pod. Pods
are harvested from September to November. Inside the carob pods are tiny
beans which are used to make locust bean gum, a stabilizer and thickener
in foods. The carob pods themselves are roasted and ground into carob
powder. Carob powder can be used to replace cocoa at levels from 25-50%.
While carob performs like cocoa, it differs in sugar and fat content.
Cocoa may contain up to 23% fat and 5% sugar while carob has .7% fat and
a natural sugar content of 42-48%. Nutritionally, carob has none of the
allergy-producing antibodies or the caffeine stimulant theobromine found
in the cocoa bean. Carob contains as much vitamin B1 as asparagus or
strawberries, the same amount of niacin as lima beans, lentils or peas
and more vitamin A than eggplant, asparagus and beets. It is also high
in vitamin B2, calcium, magnesium and iron. In addition to being a
delicious and healthful foodstuff, carob powder is used as a tobacco
flavoring and in the production of some pharmaceuticals.

Matthew 3:1-6 (KJV) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in
the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of
heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet
Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye
the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his
raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his
meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all
Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him
in Jordan, confessing their sins.




Are you saying that John ate carobs instead of fat little insects?

Till the confused

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Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 19:45 12/18/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote:

There is a carob bean, actually, and I know it's grown in tropical 
climates, but
that's about all I know about it. I'm not sure what they do with it, except
perhaps use its oil (like canola, linseed or safflower).


Haven't you ever had carob brownies?  It's often used around here as a 
cocoa substitute.  Dang, lad, you need to make a pilgrimage to Ithaca.


Till

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Re: [ZION] World's Tallest Buildings

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 17:30 12/18/2002 -0900, BLT wrote:

I think it is hubris to imagine we should build towers still taller than 
the WTC.  Sure they can build them, but the experience with the WTC proves 
that someone else can knock them down.  What is the point?  Why make 
buildings a tempting target unnecessarily?  I should think that the 
builders of the WTC would have learned their lesson.  Super tall building 
are not a good idea.



It was super great fun when we were little tykes, building those tall 
towers out of blocks and then knocking them down.

Till

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RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 02:05 12/19/2002 +, St Stephen wrote:


Probably so. I would weep for your pitiful, ignorant state, but you're
above my visual range.



Hey wait, those are my lines.   John, Stephen's stealing my schtick.  Can't 
you make him play nice?

Till the crushed

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Re: [ZION] No biological basis for race

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 14:45 12/17/2002 -0700, M Marc & St Stephan wrote:



to play the fool.
>
> Stephen

"Play the fool" is not a scientific concept either ;-)




Hey, wait, that's my part!   You'se guys can't be stealing my part ...


Till  who even got a new costume for the next show

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RE: [ZION] New guy

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 17:53 12/17/2002 +, Sir Chester wrote:


You proceed from a false assumption.  A football doesn't HAVE feathers.




Certainly not in the same respect that horses and gophers do.


Till who used to hate gopher feathers in his orange juice when he was a 
little tyke

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Re: [ZION] New guy

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 05:43 12/17/2002 -0700, Gib Egroeg wrote:

I was trying not to let it happen, but I think you topped everyone and
surely had the last word on this.

George

- Original Message -
From: "Stephen Beecroft" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:47 PM
Subject: RE: [ZION] New guy


> -George-
> > Could that be right, wright. or wrong?
>
> The "W" should be capitalized. Write "Wright" right. (But don't fixate
> on it to the point that you feel compelled to do so, or you'll find
> yourself performing the "Write 'Wright' right" rite.)
>
> Stephen



St Stephen is usually at the top of such things, which implies, fortunately 
for us, that he is not topless.  It could even be said that he is somewhat 
of a ghastly, ghostly topper here, which sounds a lot like tauper,** which 
leads us to a taper, which will help to light the way to the old Tipper, so 
trip-her to stop-her before she "gores" somebody and we wind up with a 
stiffer for a Staufer-stuffer and have no time to peruse the troper from 
the proper roper-biker* tipping precariously at the top of the stairs.

Till the ever clarifying (butter)

** do you need a chat with your bishop, Stephen?***

***  this, of course, being three "Schindllers"  as opposed  to the 
other one which is only two

 which is not to be confused with the opposing sore thumb*

*  which leads us back to Sir Scott's sore bum from two completely 
independent and irrelevant directions, proving inconclusively that life IS 
in fact one eternal round, from very top to bottom down

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Re: [ZION] New guy

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 21:16 12/16/2002 -0600, St Paul not Minnesota wrote:

 I've only been here a couple years and they
haven't thrown me out yet. 



Notice carefully the "yet"


8>))

Till

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RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 03:14 12/17/2002 +, Sir Chester wrote:



I was zipping along a Missouri road back in 1975 and fell off my
motorcycle.  Luckily, my fall was broken by my face on the pavement or I
could've hurt myself.

So it's not motorcycles which are dangerous.  It's roads.  Or faces.




Even Till has taken a tumble once, from a Norton.  There was this rock in 
the road which he smuck amidships at 60.  The rest is subject to some 
pretty vivid imagining.  HE thinks rocks are dangerous (not to mention 
young men)


Till the twisted

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Re: [ZION] Re: New guy

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 14:54 12/16/2002 -0700, Gib Egroeg wrote:


George has to be better looking, because Jim is definitely smarter.  But to
tell you the truth if you have seen one Cobabe you will recognize the rest.

Just happy to be here and living off what I suspect is the good name of good
o'cousin Jim.



Well, some of us are happy to have you aboard

Till the benevolent


Elmer L. Fairbank   N2OKConsultant/Advisor
Molecular Biology & GeneticsCornell University
G63 Biotech Bldg607-255-2147
check out my web page:   http://elf.mbg.cornell.edu

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RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 17:21 12/16/2002 -0400, St Scott wrote:

Does
that mean, however, thay you shouldn't ever drink anything in a brown
bottle? No! You might want to be a bit more circumspect in public
settings,



You could put it in a brown paper bag with just the top sticking out and 
sip on it that way.   8>))



With your motorcycle, however, someone seeing you riding will NOT assume
that you are breaking some commandment. You could, however, if still
concerned take a similar approach to the alternate above. You can be very
public and up-front about your motorcycle and why you feel it is a good
thing. This also allows you to provide saftey info to admiring teens.



Well, they don't have back seats for starters!



Till the ever helpful

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RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 11:56 12/16/2002 -0700, Uncle Presidente wrote:


But I'll have to assume, on your say so, that the list thinks that
motorcycles are the embodiment of evil and I should sell mine and use
the proceeds to purchase one of the inevitable classic collector's
leather embossed box sets of LOTR movie DVD's for each member in my
stake when they become available.



No, no keep the bike, just don't grease your hair and get a misshapen eagle 
on your forearm.   Motorcycles are kewl.  Have to admit though, they're not 
so great right about this time of year.


Till, who doesn't live in your stake anyway (now that might be a different 
issue)

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RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 22:28 12/13/2002 -0700, Uncle Presidente wrote:

Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough review 
here, what does the list have to say about a stake president owning and 
using a motorcycle. I seem to remember some counsel when I was called 
about being a good example. Remember I live in a small town where everyone 
seems to think they know each other. Surreptitious use of the motorcycle 
is not an option. Will my being seen on a motorcycle undercut the 
arguments of well meaning and concerned parents mothers who are trying to 
keep their sons from maiming or killing themselves?  Will the poor mothers 
crumble or at least chaff under the weight of "but President Matkin has a 
motorcycle".  On the other hand by participating in a few group rides with 
the local biking community (organized by the local RCMP staff sergeant who 
is also a high priests group leader in my stake) I have been able to rub 
shoulders with certain people who don't normal frequent our Sunday 
meetings. So that's the dilemma, on the one hand it may be giving 
justification to a rather dangerous sport (especially in the hands of a 17 
year old with nothing but wind between his ears) and on the other hand if 
I give it up I lose contact with a lot of good friends, some of whom I'm 
unlikely to see in any other context.

But most importantly of all, considering the demonstrated danger, should I 
also avoid the use of stairs?


Our Bishop rides a bike.  Keep it, just don't get tattooed and wear spiky 
painted-up leathers, and do your hair in a butch cut (h. is it 
possible?)


Till the helpful

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