Re: [ZION] The veil
Scott McGee wrote: Man is that he might have JOy! == Grampa Bill comments: Sorry! Letty's woman enough for me! Love y'all Grampa Bill in Savannah / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The veil
I guess I meant, what if you wanted someone to help do it for you? Stacy. At 07:51 PM 11/05/2002 +, you wrote: On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 14:03:17 -0800, "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > How does one get an arranged marriage if one might wish one? I'm mad it > seems it can't be done in this culture. The trick to arranged marriages is that you don't do your own arranging. That makes it pretty hard to accomplish for you. Now, if you wanted to try to arrange a marriage for your kids, you might be able to manage, but it would be exceedingly hard. The couple I knew who married as an arranged marriage were from India. I worked with him and we were good friends. We talked a lot about his feelings when his parents wanted him to go back to India to meet the woman they had basically engaged him to. He wasn't excited about the prospect but was willing to meet her for their sake. He came back with a different attitude and they made a really nice couple. Unfortunately, we both changed employers and states a while after and I have been unable to find him since. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - The holy hand grenade of email services / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The veil
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002 18:05:35 -0500, "Valerie Nielsen Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Oh Dear Scott: > I had no idea what you have been through. I get off of ZION for > a few years, and everything falls apart!! That's right, so don't you leave again! You hear me? > As I read between the lines, I see a great deal of suffering and > sorrow and am reminded of what Eve said in the Garden--that we must needs > pass through sorrow in order to know joy. Man is that he might have JOy! > Anyway, as I sat listening to that in the temple on Friday, it > really meant more to me then it ever has before in my life. It was sad > when my dad died--I cried and thought that was the worst. But in a > couple of months, I was doing pretty good. I remember appreciating > little things a lot more. But, losing my spouse has been much worse. I > have never experienced greater sorrow than losing Tom. Imagine the pain of losing your spouse, several of your kids, someone taking a large chuch of what's left of your income, and you don't even get to morn the loss of your spouse as she left you and took the other. It's like having a spouse die, but you are contantly reminded of them. Even have to talk to them at times. You can't morn them, but have to learn to "not love" them, whatever that means. Even now, after having dealt with all that, there is this person who has just as much say as I do in my kids lives, but no longer respects any of the values that I have always tried to raise them by. Someone who tries to (and in once case, succeeded) in subverting their love and loyalty to you. My youngest daughter just turned 10 a couple of weeks ago, and has never been baptized. My heart aches to know how much she is missing out. I went for over a year without ever seeing my youngest two daughters at one point. The pain of death is indeed devistating. I still feel the death of my grandmother who died six years ago. On the other hand, we know that they are someplace better, and that we will join them one day. The pain of betrayal and divorce never ends. My children are hurt by it now, years after. I suffer constantly over what their mother teaches them, and from not seeing them grow up. Worse, she still has the potential for financially devistating Jo and I now! >It doesn't mean there won't be greater sorrows ahead, but for me, right now, > this is it. It's been a bit over 7 months, and I still am not doing very > well. > However, I must say that the gospel, the teachings, the > scriptures, have made this transition for me MUCH easier. I cannot > imagine going through this without it. Ah, that is what got me through it too, and continues to strengthen me. The love a truly caring wife helps too. >I was not ready--emotionally or > financially--and trying to rebuild both at the same time is a real > struggle. (of course, when it rains it pours--in June I was doing the > "good Mormon mother" thing and taking my inactive boys to see the Nauvoo > Temple open house when my van's tranny died and there I was, stranded in > the middle of Illinois. $1600 for repairs, $300. for car rental etc. > etc. ) > I cannot tell you how grateful I am for a ward family who stepped > up, and continues to step up, to help me out. (Not to mention the ward > members in Ottawa, Illinois who housed us and fed us. What a relief. We > did make it to the Open House, and in fact did almost everything I had > planned.) > Even my cynical teenage son has been impressed at how "connected" > we are through the gospel. It's more than just a "church" > connection--it's much deeper. I believe that most members of the Church > truly "mourn with those that mourn, comfort those that stand in need of > comfort and bear one another's burdens that they may be light." I've > experienced it first-hand and am still in awe of how incredible it is. > > I know, I've rambled--my heart is just full and I wanted you, Scott, to > know how much we care about you and that we DO feel the pain of what > you've been through--maybe not as intensely, but we do know and > understand it. Thank you for your words and thoughts. Very truly, this list was instremental for me getting through that period. The unexpected blessing of finding a wife here was incredible too. The Lord sometimes will hit you with the most amazing blessings! Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Send your email first class / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^=
Re: [ZION] The veil
On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 14:03:17 -0800, "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > How does one get an arranged marriage if one might wish one? I'm mad it > seems it can't be done in this culture. The trick to arranged marriages is that you don't do your own arranging. That makes it pretty hard to accomplish for you. Now, if you wanted to try to arrange a marriage for your kids, you might be able to manage, but it would be exceedingly hard. The couple I knew who married as an arranged marriage were from India. I worked with him and we were good friends. We talked a lot about his feelings when his parents wanted him to go back to India to meet the woman they had basically engaged him to. He wasn't excited about the prospect but was willing to meet her for their sake. He came back with a different attitude and they made a really nice couple. Unfortunately, we both changed employers and states a while after and I have been unable to find him since. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - The holy hand grenade of email services / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The veil
Have a YA dance, and line all the YW up one wall and the YM up the other, and then pair them off ;-) Actually this isn't original -- I believe Wilford Woodruff actually proposed something similar, although I don't know if it was tongue-in-cheek or not. My only experience with arranged marriages has been second hand, with Muslim friends. We had a marketing assistant at a company I worked for, with whom I worked fairly closely. She was originally from Pakistan but was secular and non-practising, and in fact it turned out I knew more about Islam than she did when I first met her (she didn't even know what Ramadan was when I wished her an "Eid Mubarak" once*). But all of a sudden she started getting interested in her religion when her parents told her they were arranging her marriage for her. She herself said she was the most shocked of all, and then shocked that she got over the shock so quickly, once she talked to others in her parents' circle of friends. She ended up getting married to an engineer from Karachi and both live here in Edmonton, but although they consider themselves to be observant Moslems, they also live pretty westernized lives; neither wishes to return to Pakistan (and not for economic reasons, as both come from very elite families, but for social reasons and because they like a democratic, open society). *incidentally, for those with Moslem friends and acquaintances, Ramadan this year nominally starts this Wednesday, iirc. I say "nominally" because it's never official until the crescent moon is first sighted in Mecca. I guess they don't accept inductive logic ;-) It's customary to wish Moslems "Eid Mubarak", pronounced eed moo-BAHR-uk, at the end of Ramadan, during the Feast, Eid al-Fitr, a 3-day celebration which is culturally speaking their counterpart to Christmas. Eid is "festival, feast, fest" and "mubarak" is "blessed, happy" (cf. the name of the current president of Egypt, Hosni Mubarak). In a kind of cross-cultural borrowing, the Greek counterpart, Makarios, which is the word that begins each of the beatitudes in the original Greek, is also a Greek surname -- for a while in the 70s, iirc, the leader of Cyprus was one Archbishop Makarios. Stacy Smith wrote: > How does one get an arranged marriage if one might wish one? I'm mad it > seems it can't be done in this culture. > > Stacy. > > At 08:49 PM 11/04/2002 +, you wrote: > > >On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:21:53 -0900, "John W. Redelfs" > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > > I do not think it is possible to fall out of love with your wife, at > > > least > > > not the kind of love I think of when I use the term. True love lasts > > > forever or it isn't true love. > > > >Well, you could get into a big semantic discussion on exactly what is > >meant by the words, but yes, it can happen. It did to me. I remember the > >feeling when I realized it. I talked with my bishop and he basically told > >me to repent. I did so, and fell back into love with her. > > > >Unfortunately, I guess she must have fallen out of love with me, or at > >least gave up on our commitments as bout a year later she left me for > >some guy she met on the internet. > > > >This kind of falling out of love is not the same as drifting apart. We > >had done that already or it wouldn't have happened. I think that falling > >out of love (the real think like I experienced) is more akin to falling > >into transgression until you can't feel the spirit. It is still there, > >but you are incapable of feeling it because of your own actions. If the > >person who has "fallen out of love" corrects the inapropriate behavior > >that causes it, the love will (pardon the use of this expression, but it > >is appropriate here) "shine through" again and they will effectively fall > >back into love. This correction requires confirmation of commitments, > >ceasing to dwell on what you perceive as the other's faults (true faults > >or not) and generally making an effor to think of them in ways > >appropriate to someone who is your spouse. > > > >This is one reason that I think arranged marriages work as well as they > >often do. Both spouses go into the marriage knowing that they have to > >build a relationship. This is the important part. Modern couples think > >that the physical attractions _IS_ the relationship and thus often put no > >effort into it. Once the initial physical passion wears off, the > >"relationship" is over and they end up divorced in a few years or even > >months. > > > >It is too bad in my case that I didn't do this earlier and know more > >about what was happening. I might have saved my marriage. On the other > >hand, I would have lost out, too, as I would not now have Jo as my wife. > >The price I paid (and still pay) in getting to the point I was at when we > >got to know each other is horrible to think about, but she _does_ help > >make up for it. > > > >Scott > >-- > >Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as > >down (Unless it sticks
Re: [ZION] The veil
Oh Dear Scott:
I had no idea what you have been through. I get off of ZION for
a few years, and everything falls apart!!
As I read between the lines, I see a great deal of suffering and
sorrow and am reminded of what Eve said in the Garden--that we must needs
pass through sorrow in order to know joy.
I'm sure you are beginning to experience some of this. [and of
course, there is a pun here too--you will notice that
Joy starts with JO. (get it? you must needs pass through sorrow in
order to know JOy??)]
Anyway, as I sat listening to that in the temple on Friday, it
really meant more to me then it ever has before in my life. It was sad
when my dad died--I cried and thought that was the worst. But in a
couple of months, I was doing pretty good. I remember appreciating
little things a lot more. But, losing my spouse has been much worse. I
have never experienced greater sorrow than losing Tom. Never. It
doesn't mean there won't be greater sorrows ahead, but for me, right now,
this is it. It's been a bit over 7 months, and I still am not doing very
well.
However, I must say that the gospel, the teachings, the
scriptures, have made this transition for me MUCH easier. I cannot
imagine going through this without it. I was not ready--emotionally or
financially--and trying to rebuild both at the same time is a real
struggle. (of course, when it rains it pours--in June I was doing the
"good Mormon mother" thing and taking my inactive boys to see the Nauvoo
Temple open house when my van's tranny died and there I was, stranded in
the middle of Illinois. $1600 for repairs, $300. for car rental etc.
etc. )
I cannot tell you how grateful I am for a ward family who stepped
up, and continues to step up, to help me out. (Not to mention the ward
members in Ottawa, Illinois who housed us and fed us. What a relief. We
did make it to the Open House, and in fact did almost everything I had
planned.)
Even my cynical teenage son has been impressed at how "connected"
we are through the gospel. It's more than just a "church"
connection--it's much deeper. I believe that most members of the Church
truly "mourn with those that mourn, comfort those that stand in need of
comfort and bear one another's burdens that they may be light." I've
experienced it first-hand and am still in awe of how incredible it is.
I know, I've rambled--my heart is just full and I wanted you, Scott, to
know how much we care about you and that we DO feel the pain of what
you've been through--maybe not as intensely, but we do know and
understand it.
your sis in Mishawaka, Indiana (licking wounds inflicted from Boston
College--it was definitely the Green Jerseys!)
val
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:49:48 UT Scott McGee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
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Re: [ZION] The veil
How does one get an arranged marriage if one might wish one? I'm mad it seems it can't be done in this culture. Stacy. At 08:49 PM 11/04/2002 +, you wrote: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:21:53 -0900, "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > I do not think it is possible to fall out of love with your wife, at > least > not the kind of love I think of when I use the term. True love lasts > forever or it isn't true love. Well, you could get into a big semantic discussion on exactly what is meant by the words, but yes, it can happen. It did to me. I remember the feeling when I realized it. I talked with my bishop and he basically told me to repent. I did so, and fell back into love with her. Unfortunately, I guess she must have fallen out of love with me, or at least gave up on our commitments as bout a year later she left me for some guy she met on the internet. This kind of falling out of love is not the same as drifting apart. We had done that already or it wouldn't have happened. I think that falling out of love (the real think like I experienced) is more akin to falling into transgression until you can't feel the spirit. It is still there, but you are incapable of feeling it because of your own actions. If the person who has "fallen out of love" corrects the inapropriate behavior that causes it, the love will (pardon the use of this expression, but it is appropriate here) "shine through" again and they will effectively fall back into love. This correction requires confirmation of commitments, ceasing to dwell on what you perceive as the other's faults (true faults or not) and generally making an effor to think of them in ways appropriate to someone who is your spouse. This is one reason that I think arranged marriages work as well as they often do. Both spouses go into the marriage knowing that they have to build a relationship. This is the important part. Modern couples think that the physical attractions _IS_ the relationship and thus often put no effort into it. Once the initial physical passion wears off, the "relationship" is over and they end up divorced in a few years or even months. It is too bad in my case that I didn't do this earlier and know more about what was happening. I might have saved my marriage. On the other hand, I would have lost out, too, as I would not now have Jo as my wife. The price I paid (and still pay) in getting to the point I was at when we got to know each other is horrible to think about, but she _does_ help make up for it. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The veil
On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:21:53 -0900, "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > I do not think it is possible to fall out of love with your wife, at > least > not the kind of love I think of when I use the term. True love lasts > forever or it isn't true love. Well, you could get into a big semantic discussion on exactly what is meant by the words, but yes, it can happen. It did to me. I remember the feeling when I realized it. I talked with my bishop and he basically told me to repent. I did so, and fell back into love with her. Unfortunately, I guess she must have fallen out of love with me, or at least gave up on our commitments as bout a year later she left me for some guy she met on the internet. This kind of falling out of love is not the same as drifting apart. We had done that already or it wouldn't have happened. I think that falling out of love (the real think like I experienced) is more akin to falling into transgression until you can't feel the spirit. It is still there, but you are incapable of feeling it because of your own actions. If the person who has "fallen out of love" corrects the inapropriate behavior that causes it, the love will (pardon the use of this expression, but it is appropriate here) "shine through" again and they will effectively fall back into love. This correction requires confirmation of commitments, ceasing to dwell on what you perceive as the other's faults (true faults or not) and generally making an effor to think of them in ways appropriate to someone who is your spouse. This is one reason that I think arranged marriages work as well as they often do. Both spouses go into the marriage knowing that they have to build a relationship. This is the important part. Modern couples think that the physical attractions _IS_ the relationship and thus often put no effort into it. Once the initial physical passion wears off, the "relationship" is over and they end up divorced in a few years or even months. It is too bad in my case that I didn't do this earlier and know more about what was happening. I might have saved my marriage. On the other hand, I would have lost out, too, as I would not now have Jo as my wife. The price I paid (and still pay) in getting to the point I was at when we got to know each other is horrible to think about, but she _does_ help make up for it. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] The veil
> >Can love last forever? > >And what if it did? > >Nights like when Tom called to say that he couldn't come back > >Because nothing felt the same anymore > >Seared her soul and she thought "Why not?" > >"I've found a younger, truer kind of love," he said. > >And she wanted to scream and scream at him like a banshee > >For knowing how a wrinkle killed the bloom of romance. > >She hated his guts forever but he never thought about it. > >Anyway, that's how I see it. > > > Good job, that's a real masterpiece of translation. It is good. But almost anything coming out of Shakespearean or Elizabethan English seems to suffer from the transformation. "The Creative Essence is my sheepherder" comes to mind. > > > >Poets must be a distinctly unhappy lot. But then, I believe that they do > >sometimes accurately reflect the spirit of the times. (Tom, Elf and > other > >present company excepted, of course). > > > Not so, my friend, my finest poetry always comes out of some sort of > misery. I'll take the first statement, Poets must be a distinctly unhappy > lot. > It is true that the venerable Till has been known to turn to verse more frequently in his darkest moments. Things must be looking up for him though, because his output has diminished markedly in the past year or so. Would to find that the Till wrote more verse But it may be he's blessed with a curse If he's happy his muse He'll inev'tably lose Till can't write again till he gets worse! Tom > Till who is ONLY speaking for himself > > // > /// > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > // > /// > / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] The veil
At 00:37 10/31/2002 +0800, His Grace, Bishop Mark wrote: Of course, a truly modern version of this sonnet would be unprintable, but cleaned up it might go something like: Can love last forever? And what if it did? Nights like when Tom called to say that he couldn't come back Because nothing felt the same anymore Seared her soul and she thought "Why not?" "I've found a younger, truer kind of love," he said. And she wanted to scream and scream at him like a banshee For knowing how a wrinkle killed the bloom of romance. She hated his guts forever but he never thought about it. Anyway, that's how I see it. Good job, that's a real masterpiece of translation. Poets must be a distinctly unhappy lot. But then, I believe that they do sometimes accurately reflect the spirit of the times. (Tom, Elf and other present company excepted, of course). Not so, my friend, my finest poetry always comes out of some sort of misery. I'll take the first statement, Poets must be a distinctly unhappy lot. Till who is ONLY speaking for himself / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] The veil
How would Shakespeare's sonnet run in modern language? Can it sound as powerful, or did Tolkien have it right, namely, that certain words have power that resonate with us partly because of their deep Anglo-Saxon roots? Let me not to the marriage of true minds -- Let me not to the union of loyal minds Admit impediments, love is not love -- Admit that there are impediments. Love is not love Which alters when it alteration finds, -- Which changes when it finds changes Or bends with the remover to remove. -- Or is swayed by death O no, it is an ever-fixed mark -- O no, it a steady mark That looks on tempests and is never shaken; -- That looks on tempests and is never shaken; It is the star to every wand'ring bark, -- It is the pole star to every ship Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken. -- Whose worth is unknown, although its angle be measured Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks -- Love is not a slave of time though rosy lips and cheeks Within his bending sickle's compass come, -- Fall in the shadow of the grim reaper Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, -- Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, But bears it out even to the edge of doom: -- But lasts even to the edge of death: If this be error and upon me proved, -- If this be wrong and shown to me so, I never writ, nor no man ever loved. -- I never wrote and no man ever loved. Well, it appears that except for the semi-obscure reference to navigating by sighting a star for "wandering barks" (i.e. ships at sea), the language is not necessarily all that archaic, at least not for poetry. Of course, a truly modern version of this sonnet would be unprintable, but cleaned up it might go something like: Can love last forever? And what if it did? Nights like when Tom called to say that he couldn't come back Because nothing felt the same anymore Seared her soul and she thought "Why not?" "I've found a younger, truer kind of love," he said. And she wanted to scream and scream at him like a banshee For knowing how a wrinkle killed the bloom of romance. She hated his guts forever but he never thought about it. Anyway, that's how I see it. Poets must be a distinctly unhappy lot. But then, I believe that they do sometimes accurately reflect the spirit of the times. (Tom, Elf and other present company excepted, of course). = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] The veil
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- In other word I'm still in love with the movie, Princess Bride. Farm Boy and Buttercup had it right. --- Let me not to the marriage of true minds Admit impediments, love is not love Which alters when it alteration finds, Or bends with the remover to remove. O no, it is an ever-fixed mark That looks on tempests and is never shaken; It is the star to every wand'ring bark, Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken. Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks Within his bending sickle's compass come, Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, But bears it out even to the edge of doom: If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved. (Shakespeare Sonnets) --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The veil
At 05:15 PM, Tuesday, 10/29/02, Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote: Truman Madsen gave a FARMS talk, The Temple and the Atonement, in which he paraphrases Brigham Young, who said that he had two sisters approach him once about a divorce. His reply was that if they could see their husbands as they will be in the glorious resurrection, they would kneel and worship them. BY said the same is true of men who think they have fallen out of love with their wives. I do not think it is possible to fall out of love with your wife, at least not the kind of love I think of when I use the term. True love lasts forever or it isn't true love. And if a couple have "grown apart," whatever that means, then they need to grow back together again. We don't stay with our spouse only because we love them. We stay with them because we are loyal by nature. We remain true and faithful because that is how we see ourselves, as a true and faithful person. If a man cannot remain true and faithful to his wife, what makes him think he can be true and faithful to the Lord? Of course there are other kinds of love besides true love that lasts forever. There is the kind that is just for now, or as long as it is convenient, or until something comes along that I like better. But then I don't think the word love should be used so cheaply. In other word I'm still in love with the movie, Princess Bride. Farm Boy and Buttercup had it right. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "I can image a world without war, a world without fear, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.' --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The veil
On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:26:43 -0900 "John W. Redelfs"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
I have heard it said that if we could
> only pierce that veil we would hold each other in much higher
> regard.
>
>
> John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Truman Madsen gave a FARMS talk, The Temple and the Atonement, in which
he paraphrases Brigham Young, who said that he had two sisters approach
him once about a divorce. His reply was that if they could see their
husbands as they will be in the glorious resurrection, they would kneel
and worship them. BY said the same is true of men who think they have
fallen out of love with their wives.
What a great thing this is to ponder. I miss my dear husband terribly.
And I love him with all my heart. Just to think that that love that I
have for him will be added upon, and that our level of love and respect
will be so much higher--incomprehensible for this mortal.
val
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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RE: [ZION] The veil
-Jim- > One of the most significant meanings of "the veil" is the > representation of our separation from God. Jim, it's great to hear you again (speaking symbolically :). In fact, I would say that the representation of our separation from God is the *primary* meaning of "the veil", in all cases I've been able to identify. Interesting that that separation is sometimes considered necessary, even beneficial, though temporary, while at others, it's a curse. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] The veil
-John- > It's too heavy for me. But then I have a hard time with > symbolism. I am too literal minded. I think you are not giving yourself enough credit. You deal very profoundly with symbolism every time you type an email. These little black squiggles don't mean anything at all by themselves; they are merely symbolic of meaning, and the fact that they can inspire inside your brain roughly the same thoughts as the workings in my brain that gave them genesis proves that you're adept at symbolic manipulation. Same with spoken language, of course. I might venture to say that every bit of communication you do with every other being, even God, is symbolic. On a less fundamental level, you partake of the sacrament every week, yet you don't believe the Catholic doctrine of transsubstantiation. You commonly read and use figures of speech, such as that God upholds the universe, yet I bet you don't picture God, Atlas-like, with the universe perched upon his shoulders. Symbolism pervades your life. You eat and breathe it (symbolically, if not literally). As for the symbolism of the veil, I was just throwing out some musings. I feel quite sure that the one thing a "veil" always symbolizes, religiously speaking, is separation. But isn't "separation" itself symbolic of something deeper, namely, our not *being* the type of person we strive to be? Whether that's separation from God, from a wife, or from our body, we regret not having the intimacy or contact that we once had, or perhaps we work to gain contact we have never had but wish to. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The veil
A good book you might consider is Nibley's book on the temple. It's vol. 12,
"Temple and Cosmos." It explains a lot of symbolism using ancient temples as
examples. A good non-LDS book was written by a man who recently passed away and
is better known as a critic of the so-called mystic school of English poets
(primarily William Blake), but who was also an ordained mainstream Protestant
minister and taught at Victoria College, U of Toronto, which houses the United
Church of Canada's seminary. His name's Northrop Frye and he wrote a kind of
double book, one called "The Great Code: the Bible and Literature," and "Words
With Power," its successor (and written in a chiastic form, interestingly).
Although he's not LDS, I think so much of Frye that I have devoted a section of
my website to him.
Go to http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/B/scripture.htm and you'll see 3
items by/about him: B1 is a shorter piece, and B3 is a longer piece with
extensive excerpts from his two books. B12 is a review I wrote on one of his
books for either Dialogue or Sunstone -- offhand I forget which. B15 isn't bad
either -- it's about symbolism and literary techniques (such as onomatopoeia and
alliteration which is lost in the translation) in Isaiah.
"John W. Redelfs" wrote:
> At 08:43 PM, Monday, 10/28/02, Stephen Beecroft wrote:
> >5. Moses 7:26 mentions Satan veiling the earth with his chain,
> >symbolizing (I believe) the captivity of sin and the blindness Satan
> >causes in the hearts of men. Isaiah 25:7 also uses this symbolism.
> >
> >Just some musings during the gospel doctrine discussion yesterday.
>
> It's too heavy for me. But then I have a hard time with symbolism. I am
> too literal minded. It has occurred to me that when we are dealing with
> other adults, we cannot know who they were in the premortal existence, and
> they cannot know who we truly are. I have heard it said that if we could
> only pierce that veil we would hold each other in much higher regard.
>
> John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> "It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to
> laugh at that man." --Jack Handy
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> /
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>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Guns dont kill people; people with guns kill people
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
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Re: [ZION] The veil
>It has occurred to me that when we are dealing with >other adults, we cannot know who they were in the premortal existence, and >they cannot know who we truly are. I have heard it said that if we could >only pierce that veil we would hold each other in much higher regard. I agree. I believe that we all knew every single person who has and will come to this earth in the finest degree. We were super intelligent in the preexistence and were learning to think like God on a much higher level than we think now. Yes, we all know each other very intimately and the inhabitants of this earth share a common bond together as we serve in this mission. It is a terrible thing to trespass against another person. The atonement will prevent a lot of pain that would be our due if we didn't repent. Christ truly suffered beyond our ability to know. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The veil
At 08:43 PM, Monday, 10/28/02, Stephen Beecroft wrote: 5. Moses 7:26 mentions Satan veiling the earth with his chain, symbolizing (I believe) the captivity of sin and the blindness Satan causes in the hearts of men. Isaiah 25:7 also uses this symbolism. Just some musings during the gospel doctrine discussion yesterday. It's too heavy for me. But then I have a hard time with symbolism. I am too literal minded. It has occurred to me that when we are dealing with other adults, we cannot know who they were in the premortal existence, and they cannot know who we truly are. I have heard it said that if we could only pierce that veil we would hold each other in much higher regard. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man." --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] The veil
One of the most significant meanings of "the veil" is the representation of our separation from God. He has counseled us to prepare for the eventual removal of that veil... 22 Behold, it is my will, that all they who call on my name, and worship me according to mine everlasting gospel, should gather together, and stand in holy places; 23 And prepare for the revelation which is to come, when the veil of the covering of my temple, in my tabernacle, which hideth the earth, shall be taken off, and all flesh shall see me together. (Doctrine and Covenants 101:22-23.) Prophets of old--Isaiah, Nephi, the brother of Jared, and others-- were able to penetrate the veil by the force of their own faith, and see the Lord, face to face... 2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily _saw_ my Redeemer, even as _I_ have seen him. 3 And my brother, Jacob, _also_ has seen him as I have seen him; wherefore, I will send their words forth unto my children to prove unto them that my words are true. Wherefore, by the words of three, God hath said, I will establish my word. Nevertheless, God sendeth more witnesses, and he proveth all his words. (2 Nephi 11:2-3.) --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] The veil
Atonement for sin is no longer made by the high priest in Israel when he passes through the veil of the temple into the holy of holies. (Lev. 16.) See Heb. 6:19-20. Now there is a new way, a living way, for the veil of the old temple was rent with the crucifixion. (Matt. 27:50-51.) Now Jesus has passed through the veil into heaven itself. While he lived, his mortal flesh stood between him and the eternal holy of holies, for "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 15:50), but now he has, at it were, rent the veil of his flesh through death and entered into the fulness of his Father's kingdom through resurrection. (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-1973], 3: 191.) 19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. (Hebrews 6:19-20.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] The veil
The symbolism of the veil is used several times in our gospel teachings, and in some different ways. They all seem to have one thing in common: The veil separates us from God. Usually that is good, or at least necessary; in one case, it is not. In the teachings of the gospel, I see at least five separate usages of the term "veil": 1. The "veil of forgetfulness" is a God-given gift or feature of our second estate, preventing us from remembering our premortal life and thus requiring us to walk by faith. 2. "The veil" is often used in Mormon-speak in reference to death, such that those "on the other side of the veil" are the dead who await us in the spirit world. More generally, it is used to allude to a "spiritual world" (not always The Spirit World), as when I heard someone say, "The veil is very thin at the birth of a child." I assume this usage of "veil" is somehow related to #1, though the exact relationship is not clear to me. 3. One of two physical usages of "veil" is, of course, the veil of the temple. In this sense, "passing through the veil" does not mean death, or even resurrection, but rather is a symbol of our gaining eternal life and entering the Lord's presence in his celestial kingdom. This may also be related to #1 above, though again I'm not sure exactly what the relationship is. 4. The other physical "veil" is worn by the sisters and used at certain, very specific points when doing temple work. In light of the above usages of "veil", I find this fascinating. I would welcome discussion on this, except for two things: 1. I am not sure how effectively we could discuss its symbolism without violating sacred temple teachings and performances, or at the least making some on this list uncomfortable with the discussion; and, 2. I fear speculation or even informed discussion -- if "informed" discussion is even possible on this topic -- might offend some of the sisters here, and perhaps some of the brethren, as well. But I mention it for your consideration and for the sake of completeness. Make of it what you will. 5. Moses 7:26 mentions Satan veiling the earth with his chain, symbolizing (I believe) the captivity of sin and the blindness Satan causes in the hearts of men. Isaiah 25:7 also uses this symbolism. Just some musings during the gospel doctrine discussion yesterday. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
