Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: hm... ok, point taken. However: he is not treating us like dirt. Yes he is; by simply not bothering to do any real research before making huge sweeping statements... If he publishes a wiki with some misconceptions, so what? If it's full of crap, quite a few people will let him know ;-) Will it have more impact than all the other sites that don't grok zope and therefore dismisses it? No, probably not. Yeah, but they got their fair share of trouble too... But us going on like you obviously don't get it, do you? In fact, you dont seem to get anything about the web, even. Go away! If that's true, then why not? either: instead of getting an enlightened zope user, we get yet another zope sucks-person with a bunch of misconceptions about zope out in the wild. Some people can't be helped... spending time thinking about a fork is futile. I somehow can understand his position, though, having rewritten some of our systems based on what they should do, instead of trying to understand the original spaghetti code (but my code is nowhere near the complexity of Zope, on the other hand). I don't there's anything out of the ordinary with this pattern, it's what happens with all software development... Everybody needs to be treated with some degree of respect, and it's not Sorry, I disagree. Respect is a mutual thing. Yes, in general, but in our case, I get the feeling that *anyone* that does not agree with the zope-philosophy, or questions the way zope works, gets a smack in the head. This is just the latest example. Nah, I don't agree, sorry. If that had been the case, how did Zope 3 come into being? ;-) I am not trying to tell people how to behave, though, even if it may sound like it - I am just trying to point out some things about our attitude that we should be aware of as a community. I'd say, as a community, we don't tolerate fools lightly. I see that as a good thing... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
Chris Withers said the following on 11/15/2006 09:00 AM: But us going on like you obviously don't get it, do you? In fact, you dont seem to get anything about the web, even. Go away! If that's true, then why not? because it is not nice and we behave like them if we do? :-) either: instead of getting an enlightened zope user, we get yet another zope sucks-person with a bunch of misconceptions about zope out in the wild. Some people can't be helped... well, we don't need more of them, so we should avoid that as much as we can... Everybody needs to be treated with some degree of respect, and it's not Sorry, I disagree. Respect is a mutual thing. oh, yes, but when someone solicits opinions and gets whacked in the head because we don't like his ideas, then it is us that lack in respect, not them. Yes, in general, but in our case, I get the feeling that *anyone* that does not agree with the zope-philosophy, or questions the way zope works, gets a smack in the head. This is just the latest example. Nah, I don't agree, sorry. If that had been the case, how did Zope 3 come into being? ;-) Because Jim is not someone to get smacked in the head? :-) I am not trying to tell people how to behave, though, even if it may sound like it - I am just trying to point out some things about our attitude that we should be aware of as a community. I'd say, as a community, we don't tolerate fools lightly. I see that as a good thing... It is a problem because that makes us stand out as bunch of ignorable, elitist *ssh*les to the world. That is not a good thing in my book. YMMV. /dario -- -- --- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems Services Chalmers University of Tech. Lyrics applied to programming application design: emancipate yourself from mental slavery - redemption song, b. marley ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
My thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. Here's what I'm hearing: [1] Many of you agree that the Zope Book is woefully incomplete. Paul, for example, was kind enough to point out that the Image class is a descendent of the Persistent class. I opened my Zope Book back up to see how I could have missed this, and as I expected, the book doesn't show this ancestorage. In fact, the Persistent class isn't listed in Appendix B at all. [2] Some of you felt that it is acceptable that Zope's complete docs are scattered across the web. I disagree. The Zope Book should be complete if it's going to pretend to be the docs for Zope. The docs for Python, for example, seem to be complete. You might have to surf around a bit to find an example that does what you want, but you don't have to dig into the source for Python just to find out what methods are available to a given class! That's not acceptable IMHO. [3] Many of you have attacked me personally. sarcasm Gee, thanks. /sarcasm I am not a troll. A troll is a person who takes only a minute to toss a match into dry brush so he can watch the fire break out. I, on the other hand, am trying to create something. I'm investing my time by creating a wiki, I'm soliciting advice from people who know more about Zope than I do (you guys), I'm writing code, and I'm trying to create something better. By calling me names, you've essentially elevated Zope to the stature of a religion and are branding me a heretic for daring to question it. That's not how an open source community should work. If you do not like the direction I'm headed, then by all means, do not follow. Stick with Zope and enjoy it, but I personally think that a light-weight alternative that doesn't protect us from doing what we want to do would be better. How big is a Zope install, 20M? I'm not at my home PC at the moment, so I can't check. I'm betting that all the good stuff Zope really needs could fit in 50k. That leaves a 19.95M barrier to entry. I feel that all this overhead is some of what is keeping people away from Zope. [4] Many of you hate the wiki. My apologies. Rome wasn't built in a day. A good wiki is good because so many people contribute to it. Until more people contribute, you can only expect so much. Perry, I'm sorry you had problems with the wiki software. It seems to work best if you configure IE so that it doesn't block cookies from that domain. [5] Several of you defended Zope by saying that it evolved to be the beast that it is. Frankly, that's a terrible reason to live with a mess. Sometimes it takes starting over to get going in the right direction. [6] You're right that I'm totally ignorant about Zope 3. I've never played with it. I will try to make some time for that. However, my gripes with the original Zope is that there is too much. I really just want the Zope basics. Adding more to Zope will not make me happier. That's why I'm pushing to making it an Apache module. Apache is wildly popular and used in a tremendous number of servers. It already does most everything, so why re-invent the wheel? Let's just add on the few missing pieces so we can give developers the tools they need to build the rest of the car. As for me, personally, I'm going to press on making a Zope alternative. I don't mean it as any insult to anyone who loves Zope. A buddy of mine drew some parallels to an SQL product he uses. Someone created an SQL Lite version of it for people who don't need all of the SQL's advanced features. By doing so, it was not an insult to those who created the SQL program in the first place. It was merely an alternative for projects where the Lite version was better suited. So follow if you dare, help if you'd like, but shout your insults at my back. I see no reason to stick around a community that treats me like this when I'm only trying to help. Sponsored Link Don't quit your job - take classes online www.Classesusa.com ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
Philip Kilner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael,michael nt milne wrote: Is there a reason that the Plone list gets 3 times the level of postings that the Zope list gets? Yes. because it is a more mature and constructive support environment which actually helps promote the product. Bollocks.:-):-) ok I exaggerated the claim slightly for effect but only *slightly*. Of course there are many variables in the reasons why the Plone list gets more postings but one thing is true - it does have more 'class', is populated by more rounded people and is massively more supportive. On 11/14/06, Philip Kilner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael,michael nt milne wrote: Is there a reason that the Plone list gets 3 times the level of postings that the Zope list gets? Yes. because it is a more mature and constructive support environment which actually helps promote the product. Bollocks.:-)--Regards,PhilKSay what you mean. Bear witness. Iterate. -John M. Ford-- michael ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
On Wed, Nov 15, 2006 at 07:35:48AM -0800, Hafeliel wrote: My thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. Here's what I'm hearing: [1] Many of you agree that the Zope Book is woefully incomplete. Paul, for example, was kind enough to point out that the Image class is a descendent of the Persistent class. I opened my Zope Book back up to see how I could have missed this, and as I expected, the book doesn't show this ancestorage. In fact, the Persistent class isn't listed in Appendix B at all. The paper books for zope 2 are all ancient. REALLY ancient. The latest is here: http://www.plope.com/Books/2_7Edition It's also a bit old, but it has a *lot* of updates since the paper version and even since the previous online edition. IMO the community badly needs somebody to overhaul the Zope Book and Zope Developers' Guide. Unfortunately, that's a *very* labor-intensive job, and pretty much everybody with sufficient knowledge has too much paying work to do that, myself included. Kudos to Chris McDonough and the contributors for getting the 2.7 edition as far as it got. Meanwhile, zopewiki.org is very very useful. If you do not like the direction I'm headed, then by all means, do not follow. Stick with Zope and enjoy it, but I personally think that a light-weight alternative that doesn't protect us from doing what we want to do would be better. FWIW, there's lots of those. Pylons maybe? [5] Several of you defended Zope by saying that it evolved to be the beast that it is. Frankly, that's a terrible reason to live with a mess. A large number of working deployments, OTOH, is a very good reason to not throw away the past :) Sometimes it takes starting over to get going in the right direction. A couple of people have mentioned Zope 3 already... We've been in the process of starting over for several years now. There's simultaneously an evolution of Zope 2 to use more and more of Zope 3. Unfortunately this means zope 2 is going to get bigger before it can get smaller. Read the archives of the zope3-dev list for some ideas on how this might all pan out... Jim's message Two visions from Feb. of this year. People like to start from scratch, but sooner or later they end up reinventing all the features they threw away :) We're trying to find a way not to throw out all the good stuff. That's why I'm pushing to making it an Apache module. There has been some work done on running zope under Apache. Google for modzope. Apache is wildly popular and used in a tremendous number of servers. It already does most everything, so why re-invent the wheel? Let's just add on the few missing pieces so we can give developers the tools they need to build the rest of the car. does most everything? few missing pieces? How can you compare an HTTP server to a full-featured web development framework? So follow if you dare, help if you'd like, but shout your insults at my back. I see no reason to stick around a community that treats me like this when I'm only trying to help. FWIW, while I do think you have some misconceptions of where zope is going, I do think the tone got a lot harsher than necessary. I haven't posted on your wiki because I prefer mailing lists. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
For the record: my original response was not aimed at you personally Chris, it was just that your mail triggered the whole thing. I apologize for making you the target (and for feeding some trolls :). Chris Withers said the following on 11/13/2006 04:38 PM: Well, he's treating us like dirt, Dario. Rather than spending time helping to document Zope, he's gone off and built a wiki slating it. Thanks, but no thanks... hm... ok, point taken. However: he is not treating us like dirt. Not all zope-users have the historical baggage where zope gets treated like a second class citizen in the Python community, usually with some gross misconception about what zope does as a basis for that. If he publishes a wiki with some misconceptions, so what? Will it have more impact than all the other sites that don't grok zope and therefore dismisses it? No, probably not. But us going on like you obviously don't get it, do you? In fact, you dont seem to get anything about the web, even. Go away! is not the way either: instead of getting an enlightened zope user, we get yet another zope sucks-person with a bunch of misconceptions about zope out in the wild. I am not defending his misconceptions (if there are any - i haven't spent much time reading his wiki, really) and I generally agree that spending time thinking about a fork is futile. I somehow can understand his position, though, having rewritten some of our systems based on what they should do, instead of trying to understand the original spaghetti code (but my code is nowhere near the complexity of Zope, on the other hand). Nevertheless, I think we as a community could show some class and style. Everybody needs to be treated with some degree of respect, and it's not like he's going to write a zope fork, in real life; and so what if he did, if it was better, then we could probably learn something, if it isn't better, nothing will have changed for us. This certainly isn't the case. People who expect their work to get doen for them for free will get a hard time. I'd suggest that people who come with particularly unconstructive approaches to how zope may be improved will also come in for a similarly hard time... Yes, in general, but in our case, I get the feeling that *anyone* that does not agree with the zope-philosophy, or questions the way zope works, gets a smack in the head. This is just the latest example. I am not trying to tell people how to behave, though, even if it may sound like it - I am just trying to point out some things about our attitude that we should be aware of as a community. /dario -- -- --- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems Services Chalmers University of Tech. Lyrics applied to programming application design: emancipate yourself from mental slavery - redemption song, b. marley ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
Nevertheless, I think we as a community could show some class and style. +100 the entertaining value of rude mails wear off quickly.. robert begin:vcard fn:robert rottermann n:rottermann;robert email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:031 333 10 20 tel;fax:031 333 10 23 tel;home:031 333 36 03 x-mozilla-html:FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
For the record: my original response was not aimed at you personallyChris, it was just that your mail triggered the whole thing. I apologize for making you the target (and for feeding some trolls :). You make some very valid, correct points but then also make a very incorrect assumption as well. I don't believe the original poster is a troll and neither am I or anyone else who has agreed that this list needs to have some more class and enlightenment. I've been saying that for quite a while and if that gets me labelled a troll for some reason then it proves the need for an attitude change. I think you're flattering yourselves to be honest, if you believe you have so many 'trolls' posting to your list. On 11/14/06, Dario Lopez-Kästen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For the record: my original response was not aimed at you personallyChris, it was just that your mail triggered the whole thing. I apologizefor making you the target (and for feeding some trolls :).Chris Withers said the following on 11/13/2006 04:38 PM: Well, he's treating us like dirt, Dario. Rather than spending time helping to document Zope, he's gone off and built a wiki slating it. Thanks, but no thanks...hm... ok, point taken. However: he is not treating us like dirt. Not all zope-users have the historical baggage where zope gets treated like asecond class citizen in the Python community, usually with some grossmisconception about what zope does as a basis for that.If he publishes a wiki with some misconceptions, so what? Will it have more impact than all the other sites that don't grok zope and thereforedismisses it? No, probably not.But us going on like you obviously don't get it, do you? In fact, youdont seem to get anything about the web, even. Go away! is not the way either: instead of getting an enlightened zope user, we get yet anotherzope sucks-person with a bunch of misconceptions about zope out in thewild.I am not defending his misconceptions (if there are any - i haven't spent much time reading his wiki, really) and I generally agree thatspending time thinking about a fork is futile. I somehow can understandhis position, though, having rewritten some of our systems based on what they should do, instead of trying to understand the original spaghetticode (but my code is nowhere near the complexity of Zope, on the otherhand).Nevertheless, I think we as a community could show some class and style. Everybody needs to be treated with some degree of respect, and it's notlike he's going to write a zope fork, in real life; and so what if hedid, if it was better, then we could probably learn something, if it isn't better, nothing will have changed for us. This certainly isn't the case. People who expect their work to get doen for them for free will get a hard time. I'd suggest that people who come with particularly unconstructive approaches to how zope may be improved will also come in for a similarly hard time...Yes, in general, but in our case, I get the feeling that *anyone* thatdoes not agree with the zope-philosophy, or questions the way zopeworks, gets a smack in the head. This is just the latest example. I am not trying to tell people how to behave, though, even if it maysound like it - I am just trying to point out some things about ourattitude that we should be aware of as a community./dario ---Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems Services Chalmers University of Tech.Lyrics applied to programming application design:emancipate yourself from mental slavery - redemption song, b. marley ___Zope maillist-Zope@zope.orghttp://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding!**(Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )-- michael ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
michael nt milne said the following on 11/14/2006 10:59 AM: You make some very valid, correct points but then also make a very incorrect assumption as well. I don't believe the original poster is a troll and neither am I or anyone else who has agreed that this list needs to have some more class and enlightenment. agreed, but I meant this jokingly, and besides: perhaps we *all* could characterise ourselves as trolls we when spend 8 more or less consecutive mails on the list for name calling of various sorts :-) /dario -- -- --- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems Services Chalmers University of Tech. Lyrics applied to programming application design: emancipate yourself from mental slavery - redemption song, b. marley ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
Michael, michael nt milne wrote: Is there a reason that the Plone list gets 3 times the level of postings that the Zope list gets? Yes. because it is a more mature and constructive support environment which actually helps promote the product. Bollocks. :-) -- Regards, PhilK Say what you mean. Bear witness. Iterate. -John M. Ford ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
Hafeliel wrote: If you could, please take a moment to surf on over to http://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty Try doing a bit more digging before wasting your time writing this rubbish. I suggest you take a good long hard look at Zope 3, read the 2 books, and then come back... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
I walk away frustrated and angry. Not a good thing. [5] I have a neat idea for a Zope product so I start coding it up. I find some bits and pieces on the web and try installing them, only to find that parts of my product have a name collision with parts of their product. Products aren't libs. They're quite high-level and end-user specific. Take it or leave it or write your own and steal ideas from an existing one. Perhaps you should look at them as one big Cookbook of examples? [1] The documentation is not complete. Yes and no. Probably complete but scattered all over the web and txt files. We should have something like http://www.postgresql.org/docs/ or http://dev.mysql.com/doc/ Basically, yes. I want a tool that doesn't try to protect me. I want the full power of Python when I make my web pages. I do not want someone trying to protect me, or that makes me jump through hoops to get there. I want Zope's few great features without all of its restrictions. Is that more clear? Crystal clear. I hate that too. However, some restrictions can actually be good until you become a super expert because otherwise you'll write insecure or un-inheritable. I love that Python has a one-way-to-do-it approach with it's syntax but still it doesn't stop you from writing non-Guido like code like this: def foo ( self, a = b): return a (1%2+3) Yet other parts of your discussion show a frightening lack of knowledge of web development environments in general. Please don't be mean. I've been a programmer since 1979. I've done a lot of things in this last 27 years. If I can't make a tool dance and sing within two years of picking it up, then the chances are that the tool itself isn't measuring up. If there is something specific you want to address, please do. I think you're right. It shouldn't be hard. Usability matters. For geeky tools too. -- Peter Bengtsson, work www.fry-it.com home www.peterbe.com hobby www.issuetrackerproduct.com ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
+---[ Chris Withers ]-- | http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty I'm so glad the word 'numpty' is making a comeback. Not so much a fan of the modernised 'numptard' variant though. -- Andrew Milton [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
Chris Withers said the following on 11/13/2006 12:11 PM: Hafeliel wrote: If you could, please take a moment to surf on over to http://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty Try doing a bit more digging before wasting your time writing this rubbish. I suggest you take a good long hard look at Zope 3, read the 2 books, and then come back... yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new followers to zope. Sure, the man might be mistaken and misinformed, but if it is hard to understand the tool, maybe some docs or references might be in order, thoughI fail to see anythign zope related in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll unless we mean to describe the attitude towards criticism we/some of us don't like (like to deal with?). I am sure that treating him like dirt under our shoes will help improve his perception of zope and why it is such a wonderfull tool. I am not sure, however, that the zope community needs this kind of ad hominem argumentation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) towards any and all that raise any kind of issue with zope. Whatever. /dario -- -- --- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems Services Chalmers University of Tech. Lyrics applied to programming application design: emancipate yourself from mental slavery - redemption song, b. marley ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
Peter Bengtsson escribió: I walk away frustrated and angry. Not a good thing. [5] I have a neat idea for a Zope product so I start coding it up. I find some bits and pieces on the web and try installing them, only to find that parts of my product have a name collision with parts of their product. Products aren't libs. They're quite high-level and end-user specific. Take it or leave it or write your own and steal ideas from an existing one. Perhaps you should look at them as one big Cookbook of examples? [1] The documentation is not complete. Yes and no. Probably complete but scattered all over the web and txt files. We should have something like http://www.postgresql.org/docs/ or http://dev.mysql.com/doc/ Basically, yes. I want a tool that doesn't try to protect me. I want the full power of Python when I make my web pages. I do not want someone trying to protect me, or that makes me jump through hoops to get there. I want Zope's few great features without all of its restrictions. Is that more clear? Crystal clear. I hate that too. However, some restrictions can actually be good until you become a super expert because otherwise you'll write insecure or un-inheritable. I love that Python has a one-way-to-do-it approach with it's syntax but still it doesn't stop you from writing non-Guido like code like this: def foo ( self, a = b): return a (1%2+3) Yet other parts of your discussion show a frightening lack of knowledge of web development environments in general. Please don't be mean. I've been a programmer since 1979. I've done a lot of things in this last 27 years. If I can't make a tool dance and sing within two years of picking it up, then the chances are that the tool itself isn't measuring up. If there is something specific you want to address, please do. I think you're right. It shouldn't be hard. Usability matters. For geeky tools too. Well, as the weired man at zope list I think Zope will be better, as every project in the world Zope has its advantages and its disavantages, as every project in the world In my opinion the main Zope disavantages is its own architecture ;-) Programmers use to thing in Model View Controller, Singletons, Adapters and so on but Zope is (always my opinion) a object tank were they (objects) can live and this part was the most dificult to understand to me (some years ago) I use (as all of you know :-) ) Zope in not a regular way but it works! Some parts are not finished as I would like but some others are totally finished as I would dream some days ago (before to know about Zope) I don't need to work with the finished parts I need to work with the unfinished. Perhaps Zope community don't understand the way you want to use Zope but you don't found any community without this kind of problems. If we work together every day in the same place problably we understand ourselves better but open source has this kinds of issues... There are a lots of think I would like to do better and easily (for example search for my last threat at the list) but Zope is Zope and the Zope community has its owns plans. Give thanks they put Zope as open source because if not you need to program a lot of parts of your every day work And the worst solution is always here: go to php or RoR or ASP.NET or what you want. Every plataform has its advantages and its disadvantages Or you can start a Zope fork but you need to understand much better what Zope is and how Zope do the work (and I don't believe that you could do it for now) -- Mis Cosas http://blogs.sistes.net/Garito ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new followers to zope. This guy doesn't want Zope, he wants something lighter like Django or Pylons. He might find what he's looking for in Zope 3... I am sure that treating him like dirt under our shoes will help improve his perception of zope and why it is such a wonderfull tool. Well, he's treating us like dirt, Dario. Rather than spending time helping to document Zope, he's gone off and built a wiki slating it. Thanks, but no thanks... I am not sure, however, that the zope community needs this kind of ad hominem argumentation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) towards any and all that raise any kind of issue with zope. This certainly isn't the case. People who expect their work to get doen for them for free will get a hard time. I'd suggest that people who come with particularly unconstructive approaches to how zope may be improved will also come in for a similarly hard time... cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
+---[ michael nt milne ]-- | yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new | followers to zope. | | Quite right. It's an ignorant attitude and one that itself deserves the label | that it is prescribing. It's been prevalent for a long time on this list. The So if I start a wiki, making a tonne of incorrect, and ignorant statements about plone, use these false/misleading statements as a basis for replacing plone, and then post it to the plone list trying to get support for replacing plone, that list will support me right? 100% ? | whole attitude here is one of sneering and schoolboy name calling. You need to trust that those you can identify as senior members of the community, are telling the rest of you that this guy is full of crap. There have some dubious postings of late. More are coming I can assure you. The single thing that should have alerted you that something was up. *** Chris Withers and I agreed on something d8) Imagine for a moment this guy came to you for a job, claiming 25+ years of dev experience, and 2+ years of Zope experience. How many of the following would you expect him to know about? Let's just say Zope 2 even. o REQUEST.SESSION o bobobase_modification_time o User Folders - CookieCrumbler - SimpleUserFolder - LDAPUserFolder - exUserFolder - PAS - anything at all in http://zope.org/Products/user_management o metal:define-macro o metal:use-macro o metal:define-slot o metal:fill-slot o tal:replace=structure ... o Zope Security Tab? o General web security o OO development o Security overrides for python scripts o Abstraction, encapsulation Would you be pissed at having employed this person only to find out they didn't know any of these things? The people slagging this guys are pissed. Because the guy has done NO research, and no reading whatsover, and then claims Zope needs to be rewritten (of course, it IS already being rewritten, which shows how much research he did, but, not for any of the reasons he listed [because they are crap]). What if he claimed to be able to write a python Product, but, also claimed they didn't know how to subclass OFS.Image to keep the creation date? Would you believe them? Would you give the guy any credibility? Are you in a position to evaluate the claims? | Is there a reason that the Plone list gets 3 times the level of postings that | the Zope list gets? Yes. Because it's larger and more complicated than Zope itself? You factored in the CMF list traffic too right? | because it is a more mature and constructive support | environment which actually helps promote the product. That's just a bizarre claim (one, I imagine based more on opinion than fact?) One could claim that the number of postings is proportional to the amount of help required, which is almost certainly proportional to the experience of the userbase and the complexity of the subject. These are the types of bizarre claims that generate sneering name-calling replies d8) My counter claims; o Zope list generates less traffic because it is a mature, well-documented piece of software well understood by its userbase, and supported through other media such as IRC (where #zope gets far more plone questions than it ought to because Everyone in #plone is asleep is oft lamented). o Newbies will post regardless of the tone of the list, because for the most part they don't read anything, including the list-charter, list-archives, the FAQ, or any of the other documentation available. o Noone is not going to use software because of a hostile userbase. Linux proves this. In fact it might make the case for us being more offensive. d8) -- Andrew Milton [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
+---[ michael nt milne ]-- Quite right. It's an ignorant attitude and one that itself deserves the label that it is prescribing. It's been prevalent for a long time on this list. The whole attitude here is one of sneering and schoolboy name calling. You should post only if you have something to say. You did not and you can't comment on the content of the wiki. Is there a reason that the Plone list gets 3 times the level of postings that the Zope list gets? Because people use Plone and not Zope. Many Plone users identify Plone with Zope and don't recognize that Plone is a tiny CMS layer on top of Zope and several other big software components. Yes. because it is a more mature and constructive support environment which actually helps promote the product. Speak with some Plone core developers. Some of them are also bored by ongoing laziness of a minority of ppl to use existing resources or to resolve very easy issues on their own. That's why a bunch of Zope and Plone developers are no longer available for giving help on -users lists. -aj pgpYApJoWK6UM.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
You should post only if you have something to say. You did not and youcan't comment on the content of the wiki.Of course I had something to say. What nonsense. And sure I had a look at the Wiki as well and am entitled to comment. Just because I don't have the high level of authority that many people on this list have with regard to Zope it doesn't mean I can't comment. By the way there's lots of people who are bored of the attitude of certain developers towards answering queries on lists. And if those developers then decide not to post then maybe it is a good thing for the list and the developer? On 11/13/06, Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: +---[ michael nt milne ]--Quite right. It's an ignorant attitude and one that itself deserves thelabel that it is prescribing. It's been prevalent for a long time on this list. The whole attitude here is one of sneering and schoolboy namecalling.You should post only if you have something to say. You did not and youcan't comment on the content of the wiki. Is there a reason that the Plone list gets 3 times the level of postingsthat the Zope list gets?Because people use Plone and not Zope. Many Plone users identify Plone withZope and don't recognize that Plone is a tiny CMS layer on top of Zope and several other big software components.Yes. because it is a more mature and constructivesupport environment which actually helps promote the product.Speak with some Plone core developers. Some of them are also bored by ongoing laziness of a minority of ppl to use existing resources or toresolve very easy issues on their own. That's why a bunch of Zope and Plonedevelopers are no longer available for giving help on -users lists. -aj___Zope maillist-Zope@zope.orghttp://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding!**(Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )-- michael ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
Great. Thanks. On 11/13/06, Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --On 13. November 2006 17:16:14 + michael nt milne[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You posted again without significant content. And please: don't start a new thread for every reply. Learn to use your mail application properly. So did you. I thought you had filtered me out anyway? Please put the rule back in place...:-) I'm using Gmail and simply replying to the topic and the Zope list. If a separate thread is being started it's nothing to do with me.Sometimes we need some entertainment. You're back on the blacklist :-) -aj-- michael ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
The problem is the original poster (Hafeliel) did not make a credible effort to learn Zope in his years of experience with the tool (as taking more than two years not to figure out bobobase_modification_time makes painfully clear) before complaining about it with a public site full of inaccurate information. It's OK to criticize, but if you do show up with a I can save your project attitude, you are expected to have a deep knowledge of what the real problems are and to be able to offer some useful suggestions. Otherwise, you are asking for a harsh reception. michael nt milne wrote: yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new followers to zope. Quite right. It's an ignorant attitude and one that itself deserves the label that it is prescribing. It's been prevalent for a long time on this list. The whole attitude here is one of sneering and schoolboy name calling. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
--On 12. November 2006 08:47:25 -0800 Hafeliel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I realize that this post might cause a bit of anxiety, and so I apologize for that in advance. However, despite all the blood, sweat, and tears that we've all poured into Zope over the years, Zope has yet to make a signifigant market penetration. If you could, please take a moment to surf on over to http://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/ This wiki contains a lot of nonsense and wrong facts and it is really not worth to discuss anything about Zope changes outside the standard Zope community channels. Just-my-2-cents, -aj pgpvykQbnl9Mx.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
On Nov 12, 2006, at 10:47 AM, Hafeliel wrote:I realize that this post might cause a bit of anxiety,and so I apologize for that in advance. However,despite all the blood, sweat, and tears that we've allpoured into Zope over the years, Zope has yet to makea signifigant market penetration.If you could, please take a moment to surf on over tohttp://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/As you probably guessed, that's a wiki set up todiscuss where we went right, where we went wrong, andwhat we could do to make a product that industry ismore apt to embrace.What do you guys honestly think? Is this a good idea? Bad?I created an account but I can not add any text -- or, I suppose I should say that "I can't figure out how to add text". edit gives me "you must be a member"... I have an account and I'm logged in...So, I will add my reply here.About this note: I hesitate sending it to this mailing list. I'm sure it will cause a few bad feelings. It would me if I was on the other side. I honestly do not want to. If I do offend you, please let me know.About me: On a scale of 0 to 10 of Zope experience, I'm about a 2 -- maybe. I've done one trivial "Contact Management" Zope 3 application. I've managed to get zwiki inside Plone running on Zope 2. I've read two books on Zope 3. Thats about it.Images: if you want simple adding data to images, go to Adobe and search for their standardized method. They have a standardized method of adding attributes to any document. You can define and add your own attributes. Its based on rtf.Zope Replacement: it seems a bit premature to me to be asking for a replacement. Why not extend what is there? I've not seen it "fail" any place that required a reject of the founding principles.Apache Module: I'd question that. It is so trivial to put Zope 3 behind apache that I don't see the advantage of forcing people to use Apache. As an Apache module, I would have to compile it for my system. If I'm on a Mac, that is not easy to do. I've gone out and replaced all of my Apache stuff so its not so hard for me at this point but, generally, forcing people into compiling code AND using Apache seems really bad to me. Another reason NOT to do this is development. I can develop Zope on my laptop. If it was Apache based, I'd have to crank up an apache server. Not a huge deal but why force me to do that?Language: At this point, python seems to have advantages to php. I've used Perl since the dark ages but find Python nicer. I don't really know why though so please don't ask me to explain.ZCML: I agree with Zope 3's principles of creating ZCML. It is hard for me to use. I don't think that is a Zope issue. I wish it was easier.Documentation: I would still like to have a separate Zope 3 reference book. Something that can be printed. Something that is "complete" (contains everything in the default zope 3 download).Suggestion 1 for Zope 3: Make a more obvious, clean separation between Zope 2 and Zope 3 on the web sites. Have separate web sites for example. Personally, I would orphan Zope 2. Whatever works on Zope 3, I would keep. Whatever does not, I would "archive". Bring over things from Zope 2 to Zope 3 as time permits but make the cut and let Zope 2 drift into history. It may be that 99.999% of Zope 2 works in Zope 3. I have no idea. But my impression as a new beginner is that most (i.e. all) of it does not.Suggestion 2 for Zope 3: document document document... I understand everyone is busy and everything is changing fast. But, I find it really hard to break into the Zope 3 environment. And, it may be that this is really why Zope 3 is not picking up more users faster. I don't know.Super Cool Things about Zope 3: 1) TAL's: I did PHP without TALs last year. It quickly became obvious to me that something else was needed. My approach was the opposite: I wrote everything in PHP and had tiny PHP things to spit out the tags and attributes. Not very viable since you can not use normal HTML editors to create and design your pages. TAL's solves all those problems. Who ever came up with that idea deserves a Nobel Prize.2) The Zope Database: The fact I can just subclass Persistence and all that magic happens for me in the background is great. And, looking and watching from the email conversations, it appears as if there is a growth path from trivial storage to full blown database backend support.3) Python based.4) Very modular and component design. I hope this helps more than it hurts.Perry SmithEase Software, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.easesoftware.comLow cost SATA Products for IBMs p5, pSeries, and RS/6000 AIX systems___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
--- Andrew Milton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm having a hard time working out what your problem is. If anything, the Zope developers have given us too much. In an attempt to protect us from ourselves, they have severly limited what we can do. That's my fault. I can see a problem and I get so focused on how to fix it, that I don't spend adequate time making sure everyone's on the same page that I am. That's not something I've ever heard of being an issue before. The fact is you can subclass just about anything in Zope, and publish just about any other type of object. Perhaps if we knew what you were limited by, the discussion would go a lot smoother. Okiedoke. Let's take some typical problems that I've encountered in the last couple of years with Zope, and I'll walk you through my thought processes. Perhaps that will help you see the frustration that I think a typical programmer feels with Zope. [1] Suppose I've got a gallery of images and I want to organize these so that the user can see the most recent additions to the gallery. I can access an image pretty easily, for example: grumpy = getattr(container, grumpy.jpg) The edit view of grumpy.jpg shows me the Last Modified time, so I know this information must be stored somewhere. I check the docs for methods I can call on class Image and its ancestors, File, ObjectManagerItem, and PropertyManager, but I still don't see anything about the Last Modified time. Now I try to investigate it by poking around in Python. I write some code to look at any properties that might have been saved for me, but not documented: return grumpy.propertyIds() ['title', 'content_type', 'height', 'width'] No good. Perhaps there is a member that I need to call, but someone overlooked it in the documentation: return dir(grumpy) Error Type: NameError Error Value: global name 'dir' is not defined Hrmmm. No good. For some reason, my basic diagnostic tool has been disabled to protect me from something. I don't suppose I could find this information myself? return repr(grumpy.__class__.__dict__) Line 2: __dict__ is an invalid attribute name because it starts with _. Okie... perhaps if I prod more subtly? return repr(getattr(getattr(grumpy, __class__), __dict__)) Error Type: Unauthorized Error Value: You are not allowed to access '__class__' in this context [2] A user wants to buy a print of an image in the gallery. He's a new user, so I get account information and add it to my user list. Now I want to log him in from a visually appealing web form. I know this is possible, because I've seen other applications do this. However, I can't find any mention of this in the docs. [3] I'm writing a program to give web access to a program that is normally controlled with a command-line interface. To let the web user do all the things you could do from a CLI, I will want to call various programs, look at the contents of various files, etc. It's my server, and I know there will be no malicious code added, but yet, Zope stops me at every turn in an effort to protect me from myself. There are mechanisms where I can create portals to code in actual files that can access these things, but by the time I'm done, I've written so many of them, that Zope hasn't really made my life any easier at all. [4] I have some full-resolution images that I want to allow people to download if they have paid the license fees. Very few companies actually do this, so I'm content to add users manually and upload the images that they want manually. I create directories for the users and try to give only them permissions to view the files in there. To be frank, this is a chocolate mess. How do I give them the folders? How do I give them the files? The docs are no help so I temporarily make the user an admin (the haven't been told the password yet, so I feel safe) and I take ownership for them, then I change them back to regular users. This still doesn't work. Zope is convinced that they own the files, but for some reason it still wants them to authenticate. I walk away frustrated and angry. [5] I have a neat idea for a Zope product so I start coding it up. I find some bits and pieces on the web and try installing them, only to find that parts of my product have a name collision with parts of their product. I could go on, but hopefully I am making my point clear enough now. I'm not looking for the answers to these problem. I am trying to express how a typical user feels when working with Zope. They walk away with two general notions: [1] The documentation is not complete. [2] Zope is actively trying to stop me from succeeding, or finding an alternative solution. Some of your discussions shows a distinct lack of knowledge of how Zope works, so your problem seems to be, you don't understand Zope, Agreed. I know that Zope can do these things, but the documentation doesn't want to give up Zope's secrets. In most cases, such a problem would be only an
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
+---[ Hafeliel ]-- | --- Andrew Milton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | I'm having a hard time working out what your problem | is. | | If anything, the Zope developers have given us too | much. In an attempt to protect us from ourselves, | they have severly limited what we can do. | Please don't be mean. I've been a programmer since | 1979. I've been cutting code since '76, what's your point? Or are you just pissing for distance? | I've done a lot of things in this last 27 | years. If I can't make a tool dance and sing within | two years of picking it up, then the chances are that | the tool itself isn't measuring up. If there is | something specific you want to address, please do. If you haven't worked out how to do any of the things you mentioned in two years, I don't think it matters what system you use. I absolutely cannot believe you haven't worked out how to log someone in from a web form in two years of using Zope (especially given there's at least one specialised product, and a whole bunch of generic ones that do this out of the box for you). This single point alone would lead me to believe you're telling some porky pies (to be nice about it). For someone who's been around for 27 years, I'd have expected you to have at least once looked at the code... (if only to find out how the ZMI was sorting on date), if you can't find any explicit documentation. -- Andrew Milton [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
+---[ Hafeliel ]-- | | Exactly. The whole point of a tool is to make it easy | to get from point A to point B. PHP presumes that the | code is to be trusted and doesn't stand in the way. | Zope presumes that the code is suspect and is | desperate to keep me from getting to point B. The end | result is that I end up not using what Zope can do | because I do not want to deal with the roadblocks it | puts up. You are only 'restricted' when you enter your code through-the-web. On-Disk python code has no restrictions whatsoever. This includes both Products and External Methods. This is *well* documented. -- Andrew Milton [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Alternative
On Sun, Nov 12, 2006 at 05:54:35PM -0600, Perry Smith wrote: Also... I don't watch this email with an eagle eye, but why haven't you just asked? These guys are terrific at answering questions and pointers. Watch: What module should I look at to help track down where the attributes of an image are coming from? this is inherited from the Persistent class in ZODB. You're looking for bobobase_modification_time, for hysterical raisins. Note however that it's updated on *any* transaction commit that touches the object in question, which often isn't granular enough for apps that care about things like mod time. If you want something else, CMF has examples of doing the DublinCore date stuff. IIRC Philip's book has examples of doing dublin core in the zope 3 style. Happy to prove this particular point ;-) -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
