On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 02:12:19AM -0800, Javilk wrote:
> Yes, they are manual. And yes, that solution stinks. But it is a
> start because it approaches what is NEEDED by local businesses and their
> local customers.
1. I don't believe that such a need has been clearly demonstrated. I think
that the relationship between "local" businesses and "local" customers
is increasingly less relevant as the 'net removes the distinction between
"local" and "not local".
2. Even if such as need did exist, I do not think that two decades of
progress should be reversed for the convenience of business. If business
wants this, then let them invent a mechanism which provides the functionality.
That mechanism is not DNS.
> While inter-state and global
> businesses ARE being served by the Internet, LOCAL businesses are not!
Perhaps, and perhaps not. Perhaps the problem is that local businesses,
like 99% of all businesses, do not understand the Internet and do not
know how to use it to conduct business. Instead of gaining this
understanding and using it to make a buck, they try various "strategies",
all of which are silly and pointless. Last year it was "push"; now
it's "portal". This is called "strategic vision", but I think of it as
cover for "we don't have a clue how the Internet works".
> It is NOT efficient, in terms of user or system resources, to
> traverse the entire internet to get to Wendys.com headquarters and click a
> bunch more pages to get back down to a local level, when the
> infrastructure could just connect me to a local Wendys.
Depends on what you mean by "efficient".
If you mean "packets might go from NY to LA to DC in order to
get where they're going", then sometimes, *yes*, that is efficient.
If you mean "browser-clicking users want to find local resources
based on their current geographic position without having to
navigate several sites" then (for example) I suggest that wendys.com
should simply have a "find your nearest Wendys" page which takes as input
a zip code or street address and produces as output a map showing the
location(s). Solves the problem. Doable with current technology,
and in fact it *is* being done.
> Most people have NO IDEA what latitude or longitude they are at, and
> are not willing to spend the time nor money to find out! For the Average
> Consumer, GPS data, unless the city starts writing it on all the curbs, is
> worthless.
Then do it by zip code. Or telephone exchange. Or address. But someone
who does not know where he or she is *will* need a device to answer
that question for them, and that device can not, and should not, depend
on the DNS system, which is designed to *ignore* geography and topology.
Attempting to forcibly retrofit those ideas into it is Very Bad.
> > > You should be able to type "wendys" into the URL slot of your browser,
> > > and have the local Wendy's home page or order page just pop up.
> >
> > No, you should not. This is a very, VERY bad idea. It represents an
> > attempt to undermine the purpose of the DNS, which is to name things, NOT
> > to locate them in physical space. In fact, a lot of the raison d'etre
> > of DNS is to *dissociate* things from their physical, topological and
> > logical locations.
>
> What is the purpose of the internet? Is it not to serve people?
Strawman. The Internet has a large number of purposes. I believe
I have explained in detail why this is a really bad, bordering on
hideous, idea, and I have proposed alternatives which solve the same
problem without breaking DNS. I believe that the aggregate purpose
of the 'net is best served by keeping DNS intact, not corrupting it
because people are insufficiently ingenious or resourceful to use
other ways of locating information.
> Are local retailers served by being forced to deal with non-local
> people on the internet?
They are not "forced" to do anything, including be on the Internet in
the first place. I am sorry that some businesses choose to employ
a tool (the 'net) that they do not understand adequately...but This
Is Not My Problem.
> > If you want to argue that you should be able to have a device in your
> > poessession report your current GPS coordinates on cue to an application
> > which then uses those coordinates to locate resources which are spatially
> > nearby and then produces URLs for those resources, fine: I would agree
>
> How many normal, non-techno-savvy people would be willing to spend $50
> to $100 for an extra gadget they had to carry with them just to know where
> they are?
GPS's are already being built into cars -- and cellphones and two-way
pagers know where they are. The incremental cost of PCMIA-style GPS
equipment in laptops or PDAs, if produced in sufficient quantity, would
be small, and would facilitate the kind of interaction that you seem
to be advocating.
So if you don't like the GPS solution, then use the zip code, street address,
or telephone exchange. They are already web sites (like mapquest.com) which
can take inputs such as these and produce outputs consisting of maps
with locations of businesses. It's a short step to associate those
businesses with URLs, if somebody really wants to do it. But please
don't suggest breaking DNS because some people do not know where they are.
> Can you see how a simple change in the DNS system could give the
> business world the localization that in desperately NEEDS to do their
> LOCAL business?
No, I do not see that. I see that this is a really bad idea. I also
see that local businesses which are well-organized and effectively run
are doing just fine *without* the 'net.
> Am I getting through to you at all??? If it isn't DNS, then what is
> it that can map and serve these people in a generic automated manner?
Yes, you're getting through to me, but even if I grant the points
that local businesses (a) want this and (b) need this -- neither of which
I think has been established, but let's grant 'em for the sake of argument,
you seem to be insisting that this be done via DNS. This is wrong:
DNS is not the appropriate tool to solve this problem, and attempting
to warp it sufficiently to make it so will break it.
And I think you're missing a fundamental point: it is impossible
to help people who do not know where they are. If they don't possess
the information themselves (knowledge of their street address, zipcode,
etc.) or have a device which possesses it (GPS, etc.) then they cannot
convey this information to *any* entity which means in turn that they
cannot be directed to resources in geographical proximity. Moreover,
this information cannot be reliably inferred on the basis of their
IP address, domain name, or anything else that's available via IP.
So if you want to solve the problem, I would suggest an approach
that first tackles *that* problem: how do people know where they are?
Once that has been addressed, I suggest a web site (similar to mapquest)
which catalogs geography-specific URLs and can take as input any of:
- GPS coordinates
- lat./long.
- street address
- zip code
- telephone exchange/telephone number
- city/town name
- ??
combined with search terms such as "dry cleaners", "fast food", etc.,
and produces as output a clickable map showing the location of these
organizations.
Neither part of this can be solved with DNS, and neither part needs
to be.
---Rsk
Rich Kulawiec
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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