Very sorry!

The correct link should be

Please be aware that this paper is directed at academics with little knowledge of Zen. However I'm sure you will see the very obvious unstated Zen approach. Read Zen consciousness for 'consciousness itself' and ordinary unenlightened consciousness for 'the contents of consciousness'.


On Sep 10, 2008, at 6:30 PM, Fitness63 wrote:

tHAT Link does not work, though you have a tremendously interesting coin collection which I browsed.

----- Original Message -----
From: Edgar Owen
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Chan Academia

Hi JM,

For my views on consciousness and OE please read my paperhttp://


On Sep 10, 2008, at 2:33 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:

Hi Edgar,

Thank you for your post. Yes, I have similar observation. You still
owe me a detail explanation of OE. :-)

Continue in the academic sense for those who are interested .........

Similar to the journey of Buddha, my teacher teached nothing except
meditation for the first 15 years. We were taught to walk His walk,
instead of study His experience. Based on this simple practice of
nothing but staying in our chi, the truth of the world unfold to us.

Because Chan is nothing but a synchronization to the Universal
Consciousness, Chan can encompass, explain, accept all philosophy,
religion, spirituality, phenomenon, supernatural or logical. And will
never reject, ignore, limit to any written or spoken labels. I find
essence in Christianity, Islam, Vedenta (1,500 before Buddhism) are all
same, if we read in between the lines and experience with our spirit
instead of study with our mind.

Chan is One. This One is Whole and Complete. It manifested, supported, provided for all Forms, visible or not, each are caused differently. It
is not for our brain to analyze the causes, because our brain is not
capable, but for us to be synced/harmonized with each and every one.

Yet, one must staying in his Chi, not his mind, not his brain, not his
emotions, not his senses, 24/7.

That's Chan academia in a nutshell.

Edgar Owen wrote:
> Donald,
> I don't think Zen pays much attention to karma. Zen certainly doesn't
> accept reincarnation which is how karma is typically transmitted
> according to traditional Buddhist thought. Zen is more about dealing > with the present however it may appear. Nor does Zen posit any after > death states such as nirvana or supernatural Buddha realms (though in
> early Chan there are passing references to such when discussing
> earlier texts). Zen is all about the here now, there is zero
> supernatural element to Zen.
> Zen does accept that right action facilitates enlightenment in this
> lifetime though.
> Edgar
> On Sep 3, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:
>> Hi Al,
>> I don't know whether the "other guy" you were talking about is Donald
>> Hwong. I am Donald Hwong. I switched my email to my Dharma Name,
>> JMJM. A dharma name is a name given by my teacher as a recognition
>> for the world of dharma. We have approximately 50 people with dharma
>> names in our school with about 50,000 practitioners in all. We are
>> probably the largest at-home practitioner group that I know, meaning
>> without temple, formality, words, rules, etc.
>> I am one of the two teachers in the US. I am in charge of the
>> English classes. We have about 6 classes in Los Angeles. However, I >> am still learning. I don't consider my English is sufficient, nor my
>> sharing of Chan has any value. I have been called many titles,
>> including a monk with hair. None of these are necessary. A lot of
>> times, I don't even like to sign off on my post. Honestly, there is
>> nothing to learn, nothing to master. We had all within us.
>> I have been with your group and other groups for about 5-6 years
>> now. What I have learned is that the concept of karma and cause and
>> effect are not taught in the Zen. At least, the Roshi in the other
>> group openly stated so.
>> Without the correct understanding of karma and cause and effect, and
>> the proper practice to witness it, there is no way to rid of the
>> karma. It seems to me, after reading off/online for about 7-8 years, >> Zen differs from Chan in the fact Zen has no spiritual power. It is >> just a mental exercise without any connection to the life forces of
>> the universe. I do hope that I am limited in my scope.
>> To be enlightened, surpass the three realms is the first step, they
>> are the realm of Desire, Form and the Formless. Or in short the
>> karmic hindrances to body, mind and spirit. Karma is not a theory.
>> It is a force, we can sense, process, transfer, etc. Without a
>> practice to rid of karma, we still can suffer from sickness, (bodily >> karma), mental anguish (mind karma) and accidents (spiritual karma).
>> Just some observations to share.
>> Fitness63 wrote:
>>> By the way, are you a Roshi or a monk or a sensei? I am sorry that I
>>> may sound disrespectful to you and the other guy (forgot who he
>>> was), but this forum has been in existence around ten years and
>>> there have been a lot of people claiming to be senseis or monks and
>>> sometimes they were not and sometimes they were and unfortunately
>>> they usually had their feelings hurt and left so whenever I do not >>> see you post I presume you already gave up and left. Apparently the
>>> other guy did as he has not posted in a long time.
>>> Thank you for giving so much, this is character building though some
>>> call it abuse.
>>> Al
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> *To:* <>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 03, 2008 1:56 AM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Sick of Flaming
>>> Chan is One, the big One. The One which supports everything
>>> visible and
>>> invisible on an equal basis without preference. The fact that each >>> tree grows differently maybe obvious to our eyes, but the causes of
>>> their differences are difficult to see. Often, instead of
>>> pondering on
>>> the cause, and causes of causes of their difference, we label these
>>> trees by comparing them and deluded to believe that our labels
>>> were real.
>>> Every incident, encounter, formation and phenomenon in our lives
>>> are the
>>> result of some causes, and each cause are often caused by
>>> generations of
>>> causes. It is our purpose, as Chan practitioners, to
>>> satisfy/consummate/resolve/ferry each one, such that this karma
>>> does not
>>> propagate. This the "first act of perfection" -- giving. Not
>>> judging,
>>> categorizing, filing away, ignoring, but giving.
>>> It is our practice to recognize the variations of cause and
>>> effect and
>>> learn from them to resolve/satisfy externally as well as make peace >>> internally, such that our spirituality is strengthened and enhanced.
>>> Lotus does not grow from clean water. The bigger the mud, the
>>> bigger
>>> the lotus.
>>> Let us do it together.
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Cynthia,
>>> >
>>> > The only thing that can be done to stop the flaming is to turn
>>> this
>>> > forum into a fully moderated forum in which the moderator - Al
>>> - reads
>>> > and approves postings before allowing them on the forum. Al
>>> could also
>>> > probably block some contributors, but they could get around
>>> this very
>>> > easily by just registering as a different name.
>>> >
>>> > A fully moderated forum has a lot of drawbacks:
>>> > - it's a LOT OF WORK for the moderator
>>> > - it slows down posting exchanges
>>> > - it gives the power of censorship to the moderator - which in
>>> this
>>> > case is Al, whom I'm comfortable with, but it's always a bone of
>>> > contention
>>> > - there are probably more drawbacks that I haven't thought of...
>>> >
>>> > I think it would be better to keep the forum open and just
>>> censor the
>>> > postings yourself - by using your delete key.
>>> >
>>> > Also, and maybe the best suggestion, is we could all help
>>> reduce the
>>> > flaming by not responding to flames - which I am guilty of. I
>>> do that
>>> > because flaming doesn't bother me. Not responding would reduce the
>>> > reason to flame because there would be no indignant reaction to
>>> fuel
>>> > the flames.
>>> >
>>> > What does everyone else think?
>>> >
>>> > Al, this topic keeps coming up. What do you think?
>>> >
>>> > ...Bill!
>>> >
>>> > From:
>>> <> <mailto:Zen_Forum%>
>>> > [
>>> <>
>>> > <>] On Behalf Of Cynthia- Graphic
>>> > Significance Music
>>> > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:55 AM
>>> > To:
>>> <> <mailto:Zen_Forum%>
>>> > Subject: [Zen] Sick of Flaming
>>> >
>>> > I just want the flaming to stop. How can we get that crap off
>>> the group?
>>> >
>>> > Cynthia
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > __________ NOD32 3401 (20080829) Information __________
>>> >
>>> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
>>> > <> <
>>> <>>
>>> >
>>> >

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