Yes Mayka, Karma is an "cause energy". Like all energy it does not disappear. We could categorize it into internal and external, or individual and collective. But these are human terms. Karma is just "cause energy". By cause I don't mean "logical reasoning". I mean energy, or chi, or spirit or action, or motion.
JM Mayka wrote: > > Hi Donald! > > Thanks for the illustrative post you've send us. It's a good > descriptive explanation for karma. I share with you: "Karma like chi, > needs to be observed, sensed, processed". I would like to add to > this that perhaps we first we have to acknoweldege the action within > and outside oneselves. Without acknowledgement can not exist > observation. Akcnowledgement of what is going on within and around > is the ground of awareness. We go nowhere without awareness. Once we > have acknowledge the action or the result of the action then we > observe within and around oneselves. > > There is need to be clarified that in the process of karma, we as > individuals alone are not isolated the results of universal karma > since we are not separated form entities. Whatever we do is going to > have an impact in the whole universe. > > There is an inhereted karma which I believe one can not escape. > According to Donald one can if one practice this or that. I don't > think so since there is certain karma that it doesn't depends on > oneselves alone but also external karma such as enviromental > conditions, society, explotation, discrimination, greed, cruelty, > anger, violence....I don't know your jobs guys but mine is to learn > how to swim in the mud of the pond lotus flowers without getting > affected by the mud but by Transforming, making the mud as the pure, > shining beatiful White lotus. We can become the white lotus flower > if we want. > > Estern people give a little much importance to the healthy appearance > of people and the truth is that in my experience I have frecuently > seen a lot of more beauty amongst wrecked people of the streets, > disabled and sick people. It is not say that a healthy external > appareance goes with a healthy internal beauty. It sometimes is on > the other way round. This is why is very important to learn how to > see with eyes of the Buddha and not with eyes of the humans. > > A white lotus flower to you all > Mayka > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hi Edgar/Bill/Mayka/Anthony, > > > > I have tried to avoid discussing karma in labels and concepts only, > > because there are so many different versions. Yet it is so > important and > > so misunderstood. I will try to put it into words. First of all, > if > > you don't believe in cause and effect, then there is no point to > read on. > > > > You each are right in a partial way, because words are incomplete > by > > nature. I will try to explain from my experience, but also > incomplete > > through words. Karma like chi, needs to be observed, sensed, > processed, > > experienced. Mayka is right in this case. The key is not for any > us to > > "believe" or "not believe". To think that we "know" or "not > know". > > Agree or not agree. There is nothing to know. Nothing to agree. > Just > > experience. We all can. > > > > In the same domain as Chi, karma is a label for an invisible > chi, "the > > energy of cause". or "disturbed chi" or "unregulated chi". Nothing > > more. Good or bad karma are human labels applied after > the "resulted > > effect" becomes apparent. In this case Edgar is right. > > > > If you are sick, it is caused by karma. In this case karma could > mean > > blocked chi, mental anguish, genetic. When the karma is relieved, > the > > discomfort is gone. If you are in an accident, it is caused by > karma. > > In this case karma could mean, lack of focus, cause by the lack of > focus > > of others, cause of this cause and other multiple causes. Karma is > just > > another "label for cause" and in our school, everything can be > > attributed to various forms of chi. > > > > In the reward system mentioned by Anthony and Mayka, it can be > observed > > in this life as simply as the "peacefulness of our spirit". That > is the > > true reward. Violence never results in peacefulness in anyone. > And in > > our school, violent people have "agitated chi" or "disturbed chi". > They > > have difficult time to be happy or healthy. This is where Mayka > and > > Anothony is right. > > > > In multiple generations, it needs to be understood that no matter > who > > comes into a family linage, will automatically result in the cause > and > > effect of that family linage. These are what we called family > karma, or > > ancestor karma. Then there is also parental karma. Cause and > effect > > always propagates. Depending on the time and space we fall in, we > > becomes entangled with it. > > > > Many of our practitioners can accurately "tell" many generations of > > previous lives of oneself and others, which I can't and not able > to. > > But there are enough witness to suggest, that we are somehow > connected > > with previous causes after we were born. Visuals however are not > enough > > to "prove" that we are resulted from who we were in the previous > life. > > > > I hope it helps. Thank you for your time. > > > > As to Bill, he is always right, because all he says is just this. > Like > > chi, which I emphasize. :-) > > JM > > > > > > > > Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > Mayka, > > > > > > > > > There is certainly cause and effect, but Karma says that good > causes > > > always garner good effects which is nonsense. Good people are > harmed > > > and wiped out all the time. Evil people prosper all the time. > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:24 AM, Mayka wrote: > > > > > >> Edgar; > > >> > > >> In the way I have always understand Karma is as an > > >> accion and reaction of the action. I don't believe in > reincarnation > > >> and that kind of stuff. But I believe in karma in the way I say. > I > > >> believe in that way because I can see that continuosly in small > > >> things a big things. There is the karma of a Country built up > > >> through the actions on its history and the results as a karma at > the > > >> present moment. There is the karma of a family with the same > > >> pattern. And there is our personal karma that it doesn't come > from > > >> any past life by through our personal actions and the result as > > >> consequences whether positive or negative of that actions. One > just > > >> need to observe all this in order to see that this is like this > and > > >> not just an idea. > > >> > > >> Mayka > > >> > > >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Mayka, > > >> > > > >> > Exactly. Karma is not the same as cause and effect. Cause and > > >> effect > > >> > are the rules of science by which the universe of forms > operates. > > >> > That is reality. Karma, on the other hand, tells believers > that > > >> they > > >> > will always reap what they sow, whether good or evil, and even > if > > >> > they have to wait till a next life time (just to make sure > Karma > > >> > can't be exposed as nonsense of course). Of course there is > some > > >> > correlation between how one treats others and how others treat > > >> one, > > >> > but that is far from certain. And since there is no next > lifetime, > > >> > doing good in this one doesn't guarantee one won't reap evil > in > > >> > return instead of good. > > >> > > > >> > Edgar > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Nov 24, 2008, at 4:17 PM, Mayka wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > Edgar; > > >> > > > > >> > > I have to agree with Marx on this one about sayind that > religion > > >> is > > >> > > the opiate of the people. The only thing is that this also > aplies > > >> to > > >> > > buddhism and zen when they express themselves as a religion. > What > > >> I > > >> > > mean by this is that I have seen more disorentation, > speculation, > > >> > > stupidity and ignorance in the massive people who follow the > Dalai > > >> > > Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh that I've ever seen in > Christianity. I'm > > >> > > not sure if this is because the majority who follow these > two > > >> Leaders > > >> > > have changed their Christian clothing to something more > snobish or > > >> > > what but the truth is that there is catch in everything and > at the > > >> > > same time there is a truth in everything. It's all a matter > of > > >> > > having a clean mind and one can see heaven or the Buddha > Nature > > >> > > everywhere. > > >> > > > > >> > > In any case it is never a matter of believing or not > believing > > >> but a > > >> > > matter of experiencing all that in one. Don't you think? > > >> > > > > >> > > Mayka > > >> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Anthony, > > >> > > > > > >> > > > None of the below. Karma is a fairy tale for adults who are > > >> > > suffering > > >> > > > in this life, telling them things will be better in the > next if > > >> > > they > > >> > > > behave themselves and don't cause problems in this one. > Same as > > >> > > the > > >> > > > Christian view of heaven keeps all the exploited and > suffering > > >> and > > >> > > > poor in line in this life to accept their condition. As > Marx > > >> said, > > >> > > > religion is the opiate of the people. That includes both > karma > > >> and > > >> > > > Christian heaven. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Edgar > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > On Nov 24, 2008, at 5:14 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Hi, > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Since everybody is lurking waiting to be excited. Here > is a > > >> > > > > multiple choice to think about. The samurai code quoted > by > > >> Edgar > > >> > > is > > >> > > > > a perfect example of the 'present' moment. How about the > past > > >> > > and > > >> > > > > the future? What is the position of karma in zen? > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > A. Karma is a universal law nobody can escape from. It > is the > > >> > > > > essence of Buddhism and also of some schools of zen. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > B. Karma relates to the past and the future, so it is > nothing > > >> > > to > > >> > > > > do with zen. Whether or not it represents the truth we > don't > > >> care. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > C. Karma is a fairy tale. You need something to scare > kids, so > > >> > > > > they behave themselves. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Regards, > > >> > > > > Anthony > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > --- On Sun, 23/11/08, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > >> > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > >> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TEST > > >> > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Zen_Forum% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > >> > > > > Date: Sunday, 23 November, 2008, 11:48 PM > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Bill, > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > The samurai code especially emphasizes that Zen is > living our > > >> > > lives > > >> > > > > in the moment in the constant presence of death. Thus do > we > > >> gain > > >> > > an > > >> > > > > immense appreciation for every transient moment of life > and > > >> live > > >> > > it > > >> > > > > to the fullest. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Best, > > >> > > > > Edgar > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Bill Smart wrote: > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Edgar Owen > <edgarowen@ ..> > > >> > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ANYONE STILL HERE? > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Edgar > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Edgar et al, > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> I'm stll here lurking only. My father was very ill and > I had > > >> to > > >> > > fly > > >> > > > >> to the US to be with him. Unfortnutaely he died when I > was > > >> > > somewhere > > >> > > > >> over the Pacific Ocean flying out of Tokyo. I was > informed > > >> of his > > >> > > > >> death when I turned on my mobile phone upon arriving in > > >> Detroit. > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> I was a good death for him. He had been fighting > lymphoma > > >> > > (cancer of > > >> > > > >> the lymph nodes) for 4 or 5 years and has been in severe > > >> > > discomfort > > >> > > > >> for at least the last serveral months. He died on 05 > Nov, > > >> just 3 > > >> > > > >> days short of what would have been his 91st birthday. > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> I am now residing in my father's apartment in a > retirement > > >> home > > >> > > which > > >> > > > >> is connected to the nursing home which houses my mother > who > > >> is > > >> > > 89 and > > >> > > > >> has Alhzheimer's. I have the opportunity to bring my > mom up > > >> to > > >> > > the > > >> > > > >> apartment every day,and to interact not only with her > but > > >> with > > >> > > all > > >> > > > >> the other Alhzheimer patients. It you want to see > Buddha > > >> Nature > > >> > > > >> unfettered and unadulterated you should spend time with > some > > >> > > elderly > > >> > > > >> people such as these. They are such an inspiration! No > clever > > >> > > games > > >> > > > >> or silly posturing. It is true WYSIWYG (what you see is > what > > >> you > > >> > > > >> get), and that is what I call Buddha Nature - Just THIS! > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> I have been and will continue to be very busy trying to > sort > > >> out > > >> > > all > > >> > > > >> the financial arrangements with will allow my mother to > > >> receive > > >> > > all > > >> > > > >> the benefits to which she is entitled and allow her to > live > > >> the > > >> > > rest > > >> > > > >> of her life in comfort and with secutity. Much of that > is > > >> dealing > > >> > > > >> with truts and lawyers and brokers and bankers. Also > there > > >> was > > >> > > the > > >> > > > >> mountain of mail which accumulated over the past > several > > >> months > > >> > > full > > >> > > > >> of bills and medical insurance jargon that I still > haven't > > >> been > > >> > > able > > >> > > > >> to fully penetrate. ALso there is of course the > arrangements > > >> with > > >> > > > >> Social Secutiy, my dad's pension and health insurance > and > > >> > > hopfully > > >> > > > >> some VA surviving spouse benefits. The last part of > this is > > >> > > planning > > >> > > > >> and accompanying her on a to northern California to a > > >> facility > > >> > > near > > >> > > > >> two of my daughters - Castro Valley or Santa Rosa areas. > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> I will continue to lurk, but don't expect much in the > way of > > >> > > postings > > >> > > > >> for probably through the first of the year. > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> With deep appreciation. ...Bill! > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > New Email names for you! > > >> > > > > Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new > @ymail and > > >> > > > > @rocketmail. > > >> > > > > Hurry before someone else does! > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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