JMJM,
 
As a poor student of Bill's, I try to make the following comments:
 
-  Zen is not mysticism, and has nothing to do with God or universe. Zen is 
everyday life.
-  Zen has no 'mystic' practice, nor is it trying to witness the unification 
with the universe.
-  Zen does not treat definations as 'labels', but it sometimes uses them as 
koans to help in practice.
 
If I am wrong, I prepare to accept Bill's reeduction, and instead of taking his 
laptop, I will just get his iPad.
 
As regards the 'Chan', your practice seems to be different from what the word 
normally refers to (Chan usually means 'dyana' in a wide sense). The word 
'grand mystic' confuses. me. It looks like the heart Chan is influenced by 
Tantra, because of the manupilation of chi at the heart chakra. When you say 
some of your colleagues can take away bad karma from you, that is one step away 
from Buddhism, since Buddhism says only you yourself can influence your own 
karma, not even Sakyamuni can do that. 
 
Mysticisam is different from the Chinese word 'mizong', which means Tantra and 
has a lot to do with mantras. Do you rely on mantras?
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 9/9/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 9 September, 2010, 1:56 AM


  



Hello Bill and all,

Thank you for your answer. As we both know definitions are just labels, my next 
question is whether Zen has a "mystic" practice?

Since Chan is the "Grand Mystic", the foundation of our Chan practice is "Inner 
observation and witnessing the direction unification with the universe, 
including all the phenomena as well as the life force that caused everything."

Through this practice, there will be no conflict between our mind and our 
heart.  Both the logic and the universal truth will be one.  The discriminating 
mind will be wise to accept all.

What can you comment?

Thank you for your time to read my post,
JM


On 9/8/2010 12:40 AM, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: 
  

JMJM,

You bring up a very good question.

According to Merriam-Webster Online the definitions of these words and my 
opinion as how they could be applied to zen are:

MYSTICAL
1:a : having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the 
senses nor obvious to the intelligence
[Bill!] Zen is not 'spiritual' and is definitely apparent to the senses, so 
this definition doesn't seem to fit. Zen is however not obvious, nor even 
accessible as far as I'm concerned, to the intelligence.
b : involving or having the nature of an individual's direct subjective 
communion with God or ultimate reality
[Bill!] This is pretty close, although I would take out the words 'subjective' 
and 'God or ultimate' which leaves 'direct communion with reality'.

MYSTICISM
1: the experience of MYSTICAL union or direct communion with ultimate reality 
reported by MYSTICS
[Bill!] I could live with this definition. 
2: the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate 
reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight)
[Bill!] Again, this is close, but I don't associate Buddha Nature with 
intuition or insight - although I know in the West these could be used as a 
poor substitute. 
3:a : vague speculation : a belief without sound basis
[Bill!] I don't like this one at all.
b : a theory postulating the possibility of direct and intuitive acquisition of 
ineffable knowledge or power 
[Bill!] This is pretty close. I like the word 'ineffable'. That definitely 
fits. I don't like the words 'intuitive, acquisition, knowledge and power'.

In English, 'mysticism' is generally associated with God or 'hidden' knowledge 
or insight. I associate zen with just everyday stuff. It's no big deal.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Jue Miao Jing Ming - ????
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 2:14 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill

Dear all, 

I have a question. In Chinese, the Tibetan practice is literally translated as 
the "Mystic Order", the Chan practice is literally translated as the "Grand 
Mystic Order". Chan is the grand one, because Rong-Shu Patriarch brought the 
Chan to Tibet and affected their practice.

In Chan 『秘密內證法』 "Mystic Inner Witness Dharma" means an inward practice enabling 
heart to heart witness of Buddha. That's all. There is really nothing mystic 
about it.

Is the term "mystic or mysticism" means the same as the I described above or 
not?

Much obliged,
_/\_
JMJM

On 9/7/2010 8:13 AM, DP wrote: 

That's kind of the point of the book. She is trying to bring mysticism down to 
Earth, as it were. She wants to show that not only monks can do it.

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <billsm...@...> wrote:
>
> DP,
> 
> I haven't heard of this book, but it does sound interesting.
> 
> I don't, however, associate mysticism with zen, or with `seeing the world as
> it is' (which I do associate with zen). How could anyone call that
> mysticism? Or with spiritualism as so many are wont to do?
> 
> …Bill!
> 
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of DP
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 9:22 PM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
> 
> 
> I recently downloaded this ebook from a public domain site (the book is
> nearly 100 year old) and I have to say I'm very impressed with it. Underhill
> was an ANglo-Catholic, but her main focus is on how anyone can appreciate
> the mysticism of everyday life by seeing the world as it is, without
> categorization. I think this sounds very Zen, and I wonder if anyone else
> had read it.
> 
> 
> 
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-- 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

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-- 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org







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