subject:"\[Emc\-users\] converting Monarch 10EE"

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Pete Matos petefro...@gmail.com wrote:

 John
  That is amazing to me mani mean I have seen some monster electric
 motors before but 3k HP is nutz ..   I know the motors they used on the
 draw bridges in South Florida where I used to live were big DC I believe
 and they lifted some amazing loads via counterbalance  and gearing.Lots
 of industrial application for motors like this.   I also find it
 interesting that there is so much resistance to electric vehicles in the
 world when so many of the largest and most powerful vehicles are moved with
 electric power.  It is an awesome force and must be interesting to work in
 that field.  Peace


One of the biggest problems is there ain't no place to plug your electric
car into when you're in the middle of Nowhere, Montana in the middle of the
winter.  And unlike a gas car or truck, which can be refilled in 10 or 15
minutes, you're stuck for at least four or more hours to get a charge.

Mark
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[Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-05-01 Thread Roland Jollivet

On 29 April 2013 21:18, Cecil Thomas wctho...@chartertn.net wrote:

 Thanks for all the inputs.  I did quite a bit of research concerning
 the effectiveness vs the amount of work vs the expense of getting the
 machine on line and making chips.
 1. Tossing the entire drive train and replacing with a 10 hp 3ph
 motor and vfd to run from 220 single phase.. can't be done... no
 10 hp single phase vfd available at any price.

 2. same as above but use 7.5 hp vfd with back gear  same problem
 as above plus the backgear is PART OF the DC motor and requires
 considerable machining and adapting to take the end bell from the old
 motor and incorporate it into the new drive train.

 3. Note that 1 and 2 are what Monarch does now for their new and
 rebuilt 10ee's they are NOT for single phase 220 use.

 4. Drive the existing system from a single phase in 5 hp vfd.. I
 could not find a 5 hp single phase in vfd and even in the lower hp
 ranges I was looking at $400 and up for which I would be buying all
 kinds of bells and whistles which would be the proverbial mammary
 glands on a male swine since the 3 ph motor must run at 60 hz for the
 rest of the system to work correctly.   Also I would be required to
 bypass any and all means of control from the lathe itself so as not
 to disconnect the vfd load downstream.

 5. Replace the 3 ph motor with a 5 hp single phase motor..
 Probably the neatest solution but the motor and generator are a
 single unit so the single phase motor would have to actually spin
 both the motor and generator IF... there was room enough to mount the
 extra motor and there's not.  I even considered having the 3ph motor
 rewound as single phase but a couple of local motor shops said they
 were not even interested.

 6. Toss the MG and install a DC control for the motor. Most
 integral hp DC controllers are rated 180 volts wide open he 10ee
 generator produces from 0 to 300 volts to the motor armature.  It
 would be impossible to recreate that armature voltage from an off the
 shelf controller and problematic to get there with a home built
 one.  The speeds above 1500 rpm are achieved by reducing field
 voltage (120 V DC on the field up to 1500 rpm) so that would not be a
 problem.  300 VDC from 220 VAC is a challenge.


 7. Make the existing 3ph motor single phase by installing a static
 phase converter and giving up about 1/3 of the hp..  cheapest solution.

 8. Buy a pretty prebuilt Rotary Phase Converter panel for $160 and
 add a locally purchased used 7.5 hp idler for $0 and with a couple of
 hours of running conduit and hanging the panel I'm in business.


 Cecil


There are also forklift DC motors. These, and their drives, are plentiful.
They normally just toss the motor when the forklift gets scrapped.
There's the drive motor, and steering motors to look at.

Regards
Roland
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[Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

Wrongguess again.   There are already much more than a few charging
stations built and many more on the way.  Nevermind the cars are now
getting around 250 miles to the charge some even more than that.  For all
the doubters,  just wait it is coming. The electric vehicle revolution is
coming and some would say it is already here.  If you don't think so you
really need to crawl out from under your rock LOL  when Captains of
industry and the automotive world are betting hundreds of millions of
dollars on it as being the future of the automobile what more is there to
say. Besides if you do live in the winters of Montana well, I feel sorry
for you LOL.I HATE the cold.peace

Pete



On Wednesday, May 1, 2013, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Pete Matos petefro...@gmail.com wrote:

 John
  That is amazing to me mani mean I have seen some monster
electric
 motors before but 3k HP is nutz ..   I know the motors they used on
the
 draw bridges in South Florida where I used to live were big DC I believe
 and they lifted some amazing loads via counterbalance  and gearing.
 Lots
 of industrial application for motors like this.   I also find it
 interesting that there is so much resistance to electric vehicles in the
 world when so many of the largest and most powerful vehicles are moved
with
 electric power.  It is an awesome force and must be interesting to work
in
 that field.  Peace


 One of the biggest problems is there ain't no place to plug your electric
 car into when you're in the middle of Nowhere, Montana in the middle of
the
 winter.  And unlike a gas car or truck, which can be refilled in 10 or 15
 minutes, you're stuck for at least four or more hours to get a charge.

 Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 7:32 AM, Pete Matos petefro...@gmail.com wrote:

 Wrongguess again.   There are already much more than a few charging
 stations built and many more on the way.  Nevermind the cars are now
 getting around 250 miles to the charge some even more than that.  For all
 the doubters,  just wait it is coming. The electric vehicle revolution is
 coming and some would say it is already here.  If you don't think so you
 really need to crawl out from under your rock LOL  when Captains of
 industry and the automotive world are betting hundreds of millions of
 dollars on it as being the future of the automobile what more is there to
 say. Besides if you do live in the winters of Montana well, I feel sorry
 for you LOL.I HATE the cold.peace



Take a look at the map at carstations.com.  Most all the stations are
located around urban areas.  Now look at said wilderness of Montana, and
other areas in the US that are outside of urban areas.

Electric cars are probably fine for city commuters.  On the open highway,
not so much.

Captains of the industry are not betting big dollars on the electric cars.
The government is, and we all know how well they do venture capitalism.
Electric car companies are dying all over the place, and the sales of
electric cars by even the major manufacturers are falling off the cliff.

You also didn't refute the recharge time.  What's the typical recharge time
for one of those all-electric vehicles?  Can you recharge it as quickly as
I can fill up my 26 gallon tank on my pickup truck?

The hybrids, IMHO, are a much better idea.  At least they can have the
batteries recharge by the gas motor on board.

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On 1 May 2013 12:32, Pete Matos petefro...@gmail.com wrote:
  For all
 the doubters,  just wait it is coming. The electric vehicle revolution is
 coming and some would say it is already here.

It already makes sense for fixed journeys, such as parcel delivery trucks.

-- 
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http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

Well apparently you have your mind made up on thisall I can say is do
some open minded research and the answers are all out there.  Charging
times have dropped dramatically and there are remote charging stations.
Maybe not in your area but lots of different places.  Many many companies
and manufacturers are offering new and viable cars and as Andy said many
companies are turning to electronic power for their fleet delivery vehicles
etc. Etc.   The reality is it is just getting started.

Pete




On Wednesday, May 1, 2013, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 1 May 2013 12:32, Pete Matos petefro...@gmail.com wrote:
  For all
 the doubters,  just wait it is coming. The electric vehicle revolution is
 coming and some would say it is already here.

 It already makes sense for fixed journeys, such as parcel delivery trucks.

 --
 atp
 If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
 http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto


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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On 1 May 2013 12:50, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote:

 Take a look at the map at carstations.com.  Most all the stations are
 located around urban areas.  Now look at said wilderness of Montana, and
 other areas in the US that are outside of urban areas.

We are back in the situation around 1900, where you had to plan your
journey around the opening times of pharmacies that sold Motor
Spirit

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:06 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 1 May 2013 12:50, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote:

  Take a look at the map at carstations.com.  Most all the stations are
  located around urban areas.  Now look at said wilderness of Montana, and
  other areas in the US that are outside of urban areas.

 We are back in the situation around 1900, where you had to plan your
 journey around the opening times of pharmacies that sold Motor
 Spirit

 --
 atp



All well and good, but notice the dearth of charging stations in the middle
of the country.  Like I mentioned before, they're probably okay for the
city commuter who drives 20 - 30 miles a day, but for the vast part of the
country, they're pretty much useless, due to lack of charging stations and
charge time.  And they're also usually very small cars, and not very
comfortable for long distance trips.

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:09 AM, Pete Matos petefro...@gmail.com wrote:

 Well apparently you have your mind made up on thisall I can say is do
 some open minded research and the answers are all out there.  Charging
 times have dropped dramatically and there are remote charging stations.
 Maybe not in your area but lots of different places.  Many many companies
 and manufacturers are offering new and viable cars and as Andy said many
 companies are turning to electronic power for their fleet delivery vehicles
 etc. Etc.   The reality is it is just getting started.

 Pete



Haven't made my mind up at all.  Just how long does it take to charge a car
now?  Takes me about 10 - 15 minutes to fill up my vehicle.

And just who are the many, many companies and manufacturers offering new
and viable cars?  Fisker?  Oops, their going under.  Chevy Volt?  That's a
hybrid.  Look at their sales figures.  Slightly less than 25,000 since
their inception.  Not exactly a barn burner in sales. Toyota?  Nissan?  Not
talking about hybrids, but pure electric vehicles.

Until there's sufficient infrastructure, better storage capacity of the
batteries, and extremely fast charge times for the cells, full electric
cars are simply not economically worth it for the vast majority of the
people, at least here in the USA.

Fleet delivery vehicles are mostly local delivery vehicles.  Where it makes
sense to do so, it's a good idea.

The reality is that fully electric vehicles for the vast majority of US
drivers, considering the present situation, is not a good fit at all.

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On 1 May 2013 13:16, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote:

 We are back in the situation around 1900, where you had to plan your
 journey around the opening times of pharmacies that sold Motor
 Spirit

 All well and good, but notice the dearth of charging stations in the middle
 of the country.

The point I was saying was that your argument appeared valid in 1900,
but the motor car caught on then, even though you couldn't recharge it
with grass from the side of the road like you could a horse.
I am not saying that electric cars are here now, but they are
definitely on the way.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:26 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 1 May 2013 13:16, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote:

  We are back in the situation around 1900, where you had to plan your
  journey around the opening times of pharmacies that sold Motor
  Spirit

  All well and good, but notice the dearth of charging stations in the
 middle
  of the country.

 The point I was saying was that your argument appeared valid in 1900,
 but the motor car caught on then, even though you couldn't recharge it
 with grass from the side of the road like you could a horse.
 I am not saying that electric cars are here now, but they are
 definitely on the way.

 --
 atp



It's still valid now.  Given the choices that folks have, which are a lot
better today than they were in 1900 regarding reliable transportation, the
pure electric car needs to have a lot more going for it than what it
currently has.  I did mention earlier the hybrids were a much better
all-around choice in my opinion, since you're less likely to run out of
juice in the middle of nowhere.

One thing folks not of the USA do not realize, especially so in Europe
where the population is much, much denser than in the USA (Australia has
much the same lay of the land, of wide open spaces with little population).

What works in densely populated areas such as Europe and the UK, where
distances between those areas are a heck of a lot shorter than they are in
the USA, does not, and will not, work in the wide open spaces here in the
US.

A 200 to 300 mile limit per charge, with the current practically overnight
charge, would not work on trips many folks make all the time that are over
those mileages, without having to add more and more time for their schedule
to do the trip.

I can get close to 400 miles per tankful of gasoline in my truck, fill it
in less than 20 minutes, and be back on the road.  Can the same be said for
the all electric car?  Like I said earlier, until the full electric car
companies can overcome all those obstacles, they're going to be a very
small portion of American's vehicle purchases for the foreseeable future.

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

Very small cars not comfortable for trips?   Have you seen the Tesla Model
S There is a fellow local to me who just bought one and I saw and sat
in this car up close and personal. It is a GORGEOUS car and very roomy and
comfortable.  The folks who have bought them have been trying to post the
greatest range numbers in a kind of internet competition. The record is now
over 400 miles albeit at a relatively slow pace in town but at even a hwy
speed it is not a big deal to go 250 miles on a charge. I dunno about you
but if you have to drive more than 125 miles one way to work you need to
find a better job closer to home.   These are not imagined numbers these
are not fantasy, these cars are not tiny science experiments they are REAL
CARS with everything your BMW or mercedes has and then some.  Also note
that these are the FIRST cars of their kind in the realm there are many
more on the way. If you choose to doubt it that is your issue, the reality
is that we NEED to do this, we NEED these cars and motorcycles to run on
electric power not just to get us off oil and petroleum but for ecological,
political, as well as financial reasons.  If a FLEET delivery vehicle makes
sense to use this technology as much as they are constantly running even in
an in town service then for sure people can use it to get back and forth to
work which is far and away the lions share of the driving most people do
everyday. Most people drive less than an hour to work and back and that is
MOST people even in the US.  Even if you just HAD to keep your conventional
vehicle for the long trips these cars make sense for many many people even
if they don't live in a city.   Have you ever even driven an electric
car?   I am not gonna further clutter this thread with an argument about
EV's.  back to the Monarch EE discussion...peace

Pete




On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:09 AM, Pete Matos petefro...@gmail.com wrote:

  Well apparently you have your mind made up on thisall I can say is do
  some open minded research and the answers are all out there.  Charging
  times have dropped dramatically and there are remote charging stations.
  Maybe not in your area but lots of different places.  Many many companies
  and manufacturers are offering new and viable cars and as Andy said many
  companies are turning to electronic power for their fleet delivery
 vehicles
  etc. Etc.   The reality is it is just getting started.
 
  Pete
 


 Haven't made my mind up at all.  Just how long does it take to charge a car
 now?  Takes me about 10 - 15 minutes to fill up my vehicle.

 And just who are the many, many companies and manufacturers offering new
 and viable cars?  Fisker?  Oops, their going under.  Chevy Volt?  That's a
 hybrid.  Look at their sales figures.  Slightly less than 25,000 since
 their inception.  Not exactly a barn burner in sales. Toyota?  Nissan?  Not
 talking about hybrids, but pure electric vehicles.

 Until there's sufficient infrastructure, better storage capacity of the
 batteries, and extremely fast charge times for the cells, full electric
 cars are simply not economically worth it for the vast majority of the
 people, at least here in the USA.

 Fleet delivery vehicles are mostly local delivery vehicles.  Where it makes
 sense to do so, it's a good idea.

 The reality is that fully electric vehicles for the vast majority of US
 drivers, considering the present situation, is not a good fit at all.

 Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Pete Matos petefro...@gmail.com wrote:

 Very small cars not comfortable for trips?   Have you seen the Tesla Model
 S There is a fellow local to me who just bought one and I saw and sat
 in this car up close and personal. It is a GORGEOUS car and very roomy and
 comfortable.  The folks who have bought them have been trying to post the
 greatest range numbers in a kind of internet competition. The record is now
 over 400 miles albeit at a relatively slow pace in town but at even a hwy
 speed it is not a big deal to go 250 miles on a charge. I dunno about you
 but if you have to drive more than 125 miles one way to work you need to
 find a better job closer to home.   These are not imagined numbers these
 are not fantasy, these cars are not tiny science experiments they are REAL
 CARS with everything your BMW or mercedes has and then some.  Also note
 that these are the FIRST cars of their kind in the realm there are many
 more on the way. If you choose to doubt it that is your issue, the reality
 is that we NEED to do this, we NEED these cars and motorcycles to run on
 electric power not just to get us off oil and petroleum but for ecological,
 political, as well as financial reasons.  If a FLEET delivery vehicle makes
 sense to use this technology as much as they are constantly running even in
 an in town service then for sure people can use it to get back and forth to
 work which is far and away the lions share of the driving most people do
 everyday. Most people drive less than an hour to work and back and that is
 MOST people even in the US.  Even if you just HAD to keep your conventional
 vehicle for the long trips these cars make sense for many many people even
 if they don't live in a city.   Have you ever even driven an electric
 car?   I am not gonna further clutter this thread with an argument about
 EV's.  back to the Monarch EE discussion...peace

 Pete



I said the majority of full electric cars are small cars.  The Tesla Model
S is not a small car.  Great.  It can go 400 miles before a recharge.  How
long does it take to recharge?  You still haven't answered that question.
One hour?  Five hours?  12 hours? 18 hours?

I'm 6'2 and over 200 lbs.  I physically can not fit into a Smart car
without contortions.

I said earlier, in urban areas where people commute less than 100 miles per
day the electric car will work.  Better yet, is the hybrid, where you're
not tethered to an electrical outlet.

But, there are plenty of people who drive a lot of miles every day, as
their job.  Sales folks, non-local delivery jobs and so on.

Go ahead and get your electric car.  I have no problems with you buying
one.  I just don't see the majority of the folks switching over to that
kind of vehicle until the long charge times, charger availability reaches
the numbers of gas stations all over the country - not just in urban areas,
and a good, cheap way to dispose of the batteries when their useful life
ends as well as a cheap set of replacements.

By the time you total up what your electric charges are over the life of
the vehicle, and replacement battery costs are added to that, you probably
would be more money in the bank with a gasoline or hybrid vehicle.

We don't NEED to do anything.  That's what choice is all about.

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-05-01 Thread Dave

I think in the future you will have your choice.

My wife could live with an electric car most of the time.   I could not 
as my travel is totally unpredictable.
So I could see us having one electric and one gas, diesel, or propane 
powered car/truck in the future.

I drove from Washington DC back to Indiana a month ago or so and that 
was about 550 miles in a day.  Right now the only viable fuel to do that 
on is
gas, diesel, and perhaps propane.

I have a gas/natural gas powered truck but they restricted the natural 
gas filling station in town.   :-(

So I want to convert it to propane which is still cheap around here I 
think due to the fracking.

Dave

On 5/1/2013 8:43 AM, Pete Matos wrote:
 Very small cars not comfortable for trips?   Have you seen the Tesla Model
 S There is a fellow local to me who just bought one and I saw and sat
 in this car up close and personal. It is a GORGEOUS car and very roomy and
 comfortable.  The folks who have bought them have been trying to post the
 greatest range numbers in a kind of internet competition. The record is now
 over 400 miles albeit at a relatively slow pace in town but at even a hwy
 speed it is not a big deal to go 250 miles on a charge. I dunno about you
 but if you have to drive more than 125 miles one way to work you need to
 find a better job closer to home.   These are not imagined numbers these
 are not fantasy, these cars are not tiny science experiments they are REAL
 CARS with everything your BMW or mercedes has and then some.  Also note
 that these are the FIRST cars of their kind in the realm there are many
 more on the way. If you choose to doubt it that is your issue, the reality
 is that we NEED to do this, we NEED these cars and motorcycles to run on
 electric power not just to get us off oil and petroleum but for ecological,
 political, as well as financial reasons.  If a FLEET delivery vehicle makes
 sense to use this technology as much as they are constantly running even in
 an in town service then for sure people can use it to get back and forth to
 work which is far and away the lions share of the driving most people do
 everyday. Most people drive less than an hour to work and back and that is
 MOST people even in the US.  Even if you just HAD to keep your conventional
 vehicle for the long trips these cars make sense for many many people even
 if they don't live in a city.   Have you ever even driven an electric
 car?   I am not gonna further clutter this thread with an argument about
 EV's.  back to the Monarch EE discussion...peace

 Pete




 On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Mark Wendtwendt.m...@gmail.com  wrote:


 On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:09 AM, Pete Matospetefro...@gmail.com  wrote:

  
 Well apparently you have your mind made up on thisall I can say is do
 some open minded research and the answers are all out there.  Charging
 times have dropped dramatically and there are remote charging stations.
 Maybe not in your area but lots of different places.  Many many companies
 and manufacturers are offering new and viable cars and as Andy said many
 companies are turning to electronic power for their fleet delivery

 vehicles
  
 etc. Etc.   The reality is it is just getting started.

 Pete



 Haven't made my mind up at all.  Just how long does it take to charge a car
 now?  Takes me about 10 - 15 minutes to fill up my vehicle.

 And just who are the many, many companies and manufacturers offering new
 and viable cars?  Fisker?  Oops, their going under.  Chevy Volt?  That's a
 hybrid.  Look at their sales figures.  Slightly less than 25,000 since
 their inception.  Not exactly a barn burner in sales. Toyota?  Nissan?  Not
 talking about hybrids, but pure electric vehicles.

 Until there's sufficient infrastructure, better storage capacity of the
 batteries, and extremely fast charge times for the cells, full electric
 cars are simply not economically worth it for the vast majority of the
 people, at least here in the USA.

 Fleet delivery vehicles are mostly local delivery vehicles.  Where it makes
 sense to do so, it's a good idea.

 The reality is that fully electric vehicles for the vast majority of US
 drivers, considering the present situation, is not a good fit at all.

 Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

Mark,
Honestly man you are wrong on so many levels as I said before I am not
gonna wast this thread trying to convince you of it. Do some open minded
research on this and better yet go take a ride in one of these cars and
then see for yourself.  It is a real viable technology that is only getting
better and it IS the future of the automobile.  Americans, especially rural
americans  are quite set in their ways and much less open to new
technologies than the rest of the civilized world so your arguments are not
surprising to me in the least.  For me I cannot wait until I most of the
cars on the road are EV's.

Pete




On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:42 AM, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:26 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 1 May 2013 13:16, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   We are back in the situation around 1900, where you had to plan your
   journey around the opening times of pharmacies that sold Motor
   Spirit
 
   All well and good, but notice the dearth of charging stations in the
  middle
   of the country.
 
  The point I was saying was that your argument appeared valid in 1900,
  but the motor car caught on then, even though you couldn't recharge it
  with grass from the side of the road like you could a horse.
  I am not saying that electric cars are here now, but they are
  definitely on the way.
 
  --
  atp
 


 It's still valid now.  Given the choices that folks have, which are a lot
 better today than they were in 1900 regarding reliable transportation, the
 pure electric car needs to have a lot more going for it than what it
 currently has.  I did mention earlier the hybrids were a much better
 all-around choice in my opinion, since you're less likely to run out of
 juice in the middle of nowhere.

 One thing folks not of the USA do not realize, especially so in Europe
 where the population is much, much denser than in the USA (Australia has
 much the same lay of the land, of wide open spaces with little population).

 What works in densely populated areas such as Europe and the UK, where
 distances between those areas are a heck of a lot shorter than they are in
 the USA, does not, and will not, work in the wide open spaces here in the
 US.

 A 200 to 300 mile limit per charge, with the current practically overnight
 charge, would not work on trips many folks make all the time that are over
 those mileages, without having to add more and more time for their schedule
 to do the trip.

 I can get close to 400 miles per tankful of gasoline in my truck, fill it
 in less than 20 minutes, and be back on the road.  Can the same be said for
 the all electric car?  Like I said earlier, until the full electric car
 companies can overcome all those obstacles, they're going to be a very
 small portion of American's vehicle purchases for the foreseeable future.

 Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com wrote:

 I think in the future you will have your choice.

 My wife could live with an electric car most of the time.   I could not
 as my travel is totally unpredictable.
 So I could see us having one electric and one gas, diesel, or propane
 powered car/truck in the future.

 I drove from Washington DC back to Indiana a month ago or so and that
 was about 550 miles in a day.  Right now the only viable fuel to do that
 on is
 gas, diesel, and perhaps propane.

 I have a gas/natural gas powered truck but they restricted the natural
 gas filling station in town.   :-(

 So I want to convert it to propane which is still cheap around here I
 think due to the fracking.

 Dave



Dave,

Yep, like I said, there are times and places where all electric vehicles
have their place.  With the current limitations though, I just don't see
wide-spread use.  At least until those limitations are overcome.

That's why I said a hybrid is much better suited to the majority of folks
that would like to wean themselves off gasoline/diesel vehicles.

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Pete Matos petefro...@gmail.com wrote:

 Mark,
 Honestly man you are wrong on so many levels as I said before I am not
 gonna wast this thread trying to convince you of it. Do some open minded
 research on this and better yet go take a ride in one of these cars and
 then see for yourself.  It is a real viable technology that is only getting
 better and it IS the future of the automobile.  Americans, especially rural
 americans  are quite set in their ways and much less open to new
 technologies than the rest of the civilized world so your arguments are not
 surprising to me in the least.  For me I cannot wait until I most of the
 cars on the road are EV's.

 Pete



Please show me where I'm wrong on so many levels.  Please show me the
facts, not emotional responses.

How long is the charge cycle?

How far can these vehicles go on a charge?

How long do the batteries last?

How much does it cost to replace the batteries?

How do you safely dispose of the batteries in an economical way?

Rural Americans require dependable transportation that is easily charged
and doesn't require an overnight charge cycle.  That's not set in their
ways, that's just reality.  Plenty of rural folks invest themselves in new
technologies, but those technologies have to work for them.  Forcing some
new technology on folks, just because they supposedly NEED that
technology, as decided by the powers that be isn't going to make that
technology work for them.

It's all what works for you, me, them, etc.  If that technology isn't of
any use for me or them or you any, what's the point of investing in it?  If
it works for you, great.  If it doesn't work for me, I have other choices.

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE - EVs

2013-05-01 Thread Steve Stallings

 -Original Message-
 From: Pete Matos [mailto:petefro...@gmail.com] 
 Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 8:43 AM

 I am not gonna further clutter this thread with an 
 argument about
 EV's.  back to the Monarch EE discussion...peace

Please let that be true, this list is active enough
without off topic arguments.


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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

Like I said man...do some research, I am not gonna do it for you. I am done
here.

Pete




On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Pete Matos petefro...@gmail.com wrote:

  Mark,
  Honestly man you are wrong on so many levels as I said before I am
 not
  gonna wast this thread trying to convince you of it. Do some open minded
  research on this and better yet go take a ride in one of these cars and
  then see for yourself.  It is a real viable technology that is only
 getting
  better and it IS the future of the automobile.  Americans, especially
 rural
  americans  are quite set in their ways and much less open to new
  technologies than the rest of the civilized world so your arguments are
 not
  surprising to me in the least.  For me I cannot wait until I most of the
  cars on the road are EV's.
 
  Pete
 


 Please show me where I'm wrong on so many levels.  Please show me the
 facts, not emotional responses.

 How long is the charge cycle?

 How far can these vehicles go on a charge?

 How long do the batteries last?

 How much does it cost to replace the batteries?

 How do you safely dispose of the batteries in an economical way?

 Rural Americans require dependable transportation that is easily charged
 and doesn't require an overnight charge cycle.  That's not set in their
 ways, that's just reality.  Plenty of rural folks invest themselves in new
 technologies, but those technologies have to work for them.  Forcing some
 new technology on folks, just because they supposedly NEED that
 technology, as decided by the powers that be isn't going to make that
 technology work for them.

 It's all what works for you, me, them, etc.  If that technology isn't of
 any use for me or them or you any, what's the point of investing in it?  If
 it works for you, great.  If it doesn't work for me, I have other choices.

 Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Pete Matos petefro...@gmail.com wrote:

 Like I said man...do some research, I am not gonna do it for you. I am done
 here.

 Pete



Yup.  Just like I figured.  I have done the research on the questions I
asked you.  I wanted to know if you knew the facts.

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE - EVs

2013-05-01 Thread Ron Bean

 I am not gonna further clutter this thread with an
 argument about
 EV's.  back to the Monarch EE discussion...peace

Please let that be true, this list is active enough
without off topic arguments.

Or at least change the Subject: line
(Try it, it's easy)



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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-05-01 Thread Steve Blackmore

On Wed, 1 May 2013 07:50:47 -0400, you wrote:


Captains of the industry are not betting big dollars on the electric cars.
The government is, and we all know how well they do venture capitalism.

Of course they are not, they are happier ripping people off with high
fuel costs rather than updating the USA's third world power grid. All
governments are conniving inveterate liars in the pockets of the rich
and powerful.

Some years ago I worked for a large multinational company, who I can't
name for legal reasons. One of the many things they were working on were
more efficient fossil fuel engines. They had a 2litre Diesel engine that
was capable of 200 mpg plus and they had it working fine in a popular
large saloon car as a demonstrator. NO car manufacturer would take it
on. Pressure from fuel companies and governments was unofficially cited
as the reason by the guys in the development team. The thing was
mothballed, and I'm sure it's not the first time it happened, or the
last. Other projects had been canned as they would increase the life of
a product many fold which scared the manufacturers as their sales would
be too badly damaged.

Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On 1 May 2013 22:54, Steve Blackmore st...@pilotltd.net wrote:

 Some years ago I worked for a large multinational company, who I can't
 name for legal reasons. One of the many things they were working on were
 more efficient fossil fuel engines. They had a 2litre Diesel engine that
 was capable of 200 mpg plus and they had it working fine in a popular
 large saloon car as a demonstrator.

Bollocks.


-- 
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If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-05-01 Thread Gary Corlew

Just where does everyone think this electricity is coming from? Is everyone
supposed to turn a blind eye to where the electricity comes from?

-Original Message-
From: Pete Matos [mailto:petefro...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 9:04 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

Mark,
Honestly man you are wrong on so many levels as I said before I am not
gonna wast this thread trying to convince you of it. Do some open minded
research on this and better yet go take a ride in one of these cars and
then see for yourself.  It is a real viable technology that is only getting
better and it IS the future of the automobile.  Americans, especially rural
americans  are quite set in their ways and much less open to new
technologies than the rest of the civilized world so your arguments are not
surprising to me in the least.  For me I cannot wait until I most of the
cars on the road are EV's.

Pete

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:42 AM, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:26 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 1 May 2013 13:16, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote:

   We are back in the situation around 1900, where you had to plan your
   journey around the opening times of pharmacies that sold Motor
   Spirit

   All well and good, but notice the dearth of charging stations in the
  middle
   of the country.

  The point I was saying was that your argument appeared valid in 1900,
  but the motor car caught on then, even though you couldn't recharge it
  with grass from the side of the road like you could a horse.
  I am not saying that electric cars are here now, but they are
  definitely on the way.

  --
  atp

 It's still valid now.  Given the choices that folks have, which are a lot
 better today than they were in 1900 regarding reliable transportation, the
 pure electric car needs to have a lot more going for it than what it
 currently has.  I did mention earlier the hybrids were a much better
 all-around choice in my opinion, since you're less likely to run out of
 juice in the middle of nowhere.

 One thing folks not of the USA do not realize, especially so in Europe
 where the population is much, much denser than in the USA (Australia has
 much the same lay of the land, of wide open spaces with little
population).

 What works in densely populated areas such as Europe and the UK, where
 distances between those areas are a heck of a lot shorter than they are in
 the USA, does not, and will not, work in the wide open spaces here in the
 US.

 A 200 to 300 mile limit per charge, with the current practically overnight
 charge, would not work on trips many folks make all the time that are over
 those mileages, without having to add more and more time for their
schedule
 to do the trip.

 I can get close to 400 miles per tankful of gasoline in my truck, fill it
 in less than 20 minutes, and be back on the road.  Can the same be said
for
 the all electric car?  Like I said earlier, until the full electric car
 companies can overcome all those obstacles, they're going to be a very
 small portion of American's vehicle purchases for the foreseeable future.

 Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On 2 May 2013 00:01, Gary Corlew gcor...@carolina.rr.com wrote:
 Just where does everyone think this electricity is coming from?

Fission. It works, it's clean, the waste stays where you put it.

If and when Fusion comes on line we will have enough properly free
energy to either throw the Fission waste into the sun, or transmute it
into useful stuff.

But, with fairly high priority, we need to stop burning oil faster
than it is created.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-05-01 Thread Chris Morley

 From: gcor...@carolina.rr.com
 To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 19:01:23 -0400
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

 Just where does everyone think this electricity is coming from? Is everyone
 supposed to turn a blind eye to where the electricity comes from?

Yes you know I never hear much about this fundamental problem.
It seems to me that EVs do not scale well.
All great when you only have a few hundred thousand.
but change all the vehicles to electric and one will need to burn a lot
fuel to power that and I guarantee the price of electricity will go up! 

Not that I think we should abandon EV research, just that we need to shake our
head and look at a little bigger picture.

Atomic energy is not worth the risks in my humble opinion - not yet anyways.
Here is BC Canada we use mainly hydro electric generation. very clean.
And even it has it's limits and distractions.

Interestingly hydro electricity is viewed (by some) as not 'green' yet the 
burning of
hog fuel (trees) in the pulp mill I work at is considered green. Go figure...

Chris M 

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread Gene Heskett

On Tuesday 30 April 2013 04:10:18 jeremy youngs did opine:

 gene did say
 The day of picking up a
 defunct treadmill, or a surplus motor from one, seem to now be in the
 distant past, with one that I saw on fleabay, clearly well abused, 6
 months ago that still had 3 days to go and was above 200USD then
 
 my results from flea bay are different and 2 of my 3 machines run
 craigslist freebie motors and controllers ( until i scrape the coin for
 a mesa card and jons servo amp:)
 
 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-5-HP-TREADMILL-MOTOR-complet-setup-with-contro
 ller-and-cables-/251265385921?pt=US_Cardio_Treadmillshash=item3a809585c
 1
 
 
 ymmv :)

Now that I could get interested in.  How hard will it be to remove that 
flywheel and mount flange so that there is a snowballs chance of hiding it 
close enough to the existing motor pocket in the back of a 7x to allow a 
slightly longer toothed belt work?  I could find an extra inch under its 
position easily with a sabre saw as the so called chip pan is no longer 
under mine, much easier to clean under it w/o it.

The existing motor is reversible via the usual DPDT relay bit which I have 
not wired back up since putting it under lcnc servo speed control, but what 
is that encoder looking bit on its butt?  Brushless commutator?  Or speed 
feedback to the controller?

If no show stopper answers, I'll buy it now in the morning.

Cheers, Gene
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dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
 law-abiding citizens.

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread jeremy youngs

one of them had a flatted 5/8 shaft, the other it was pressed on.
if you remove the flywheel you have to put a fan on it , if you will run it
slow a fan is probably a good idea , i just used an old pc fan.
there are several motors for around 40 bucks, as to the reverse feature i
haver thoughyt of building an h bridge , but as mentioned before when i Am
a little less concerned with getting back to missouri and out of ny i will
splurge for jons controller and run it on rectified 120 .
also one of them had an optical encoder that i had to make a disc for , it
is jut a disc with one slot. the other one i believe has a tach or other
feedbak but has not been hooked up and seems to work fine . the encoder
motor would not run without it .
and thats about all i know about that
:)


On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 4:23 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote:

 On Tuesday 30 April 2013 04:10:18 jeremy youngs did opine:

  gene did say
  The day of picking up a
  defunct treadmill, or a surplus motor from one, seem to now be in the
  distant past, with one that I saw on fleabay, clearly well abused, 6
  months ago that still had 3 days to go and was above 200USD then
 
  my results from flea bay are different and 2 of my 3 machines run
  craigslist freebie motors and controllers ( until i scrape the coin for
  a mesa card and jons servo amp:)
 
 
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-5-HP-TREADMILL-MOTOR-complet-setup-with-contro
  ller-and-cables-/251265385921?pt=US_Cardio_Treadmillshash=item3a809585c
  1
 
 
  ymmv :)

 Now that I could get interested in.  How hard will it be to remove that
 flywheel and mount flange so that there is a snowballs chance of hiding it
 close enough to the existing motor pocket in the back of a 7x to allow a
 slightly longer toothed belt work?  I could find an extra inch under its
 position easily with a sabre saw as the so called chip pan is no longer
 under mine, much easier to clean under it w/o it.

 The existing motor is reversible via the usual DPDT relay bit which I have
 not wired back up since putting it under lcnc servo speed control, but what
 is that encoder looking bit on its butt?  Brushless commutator?  Or speed
 feedback to the controller?

 If no show stopper answers, I'll buy it now in the morning.

 Cheers, Gene
 --
 There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
 -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
 My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up!
 My views
 http://www.armchairpatriot.com/What%20Has%20America%20Become.shtml
 The San Diego Freeway.  Official Parking Lot of the 1984 Olympics!
 A pen in the hand of this president is far more
 dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
  law-abiding citizens.


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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread jeremy youngs

gene here is a bit more variety
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR10.TRC2_nkw=treadmill+motor_sacat=0_from=R40

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 10:55 AM, jeremy youngs jcyoung...@gmail.comwrote:

one of them had a flatted 5/8 shaft, the other it was pressed on.
if you remove the flywheel you have to put a fan on it , if you will run
it slow a fan is probably a good idea , i just used an old pc fan.
there are several motors for around 40 bucks, as to the reverse feature i
haver thoughyt of building an h bridge , but as mentioned before when i Am
a little less concerned with getting back to missouri and out of ny i will
splurge for jons controller and run it on rectified 120 .
also one of them had an optical encoder that i had to make a disc for , it
is jut a disc with one slot. the other one i believe has a tach or other
feedbak but has not been hooked up and seems to work fine . the encoder
motor would not run without it .
and thats about all i know about that
:)

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 4:23 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote:

On Tuesday 30 April 2013 04:10:18 jeremy youngs did opine:

gene did say
The day of picking up a
defunct treadmill, or a surplus motor from one, seem to now be in the
distant past, with one that I saw on fleabay, clearly well abused, 6
months ago that still had 3 days to go and was above 200USD then

my results from flea bay are different and 2 of my 3 machines run
craigslist freebie motors and controllers ( until i scrape the coin for
a mesa card and jons servo amp:)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-5-HP-TREADMILL-MOTOR-complet-setup-with-contro
ller-and-cables-/251265385921?pt=US_Cardio_Treadmillshash=item3a809585c
1

ymmv :)

Now that I could get interested in. How hard will it be to remove that
flywheel and mount flange so that there is a snowballs chance of hiding it
close enough to the existing motor pocket in the back of a 7x to allow a
slightly longer toothed belt work? I could find an extra inch under its
position easily with a sabre saw as the so called chip pan is no longer
under mine, much easier to clean under it w/o it.

The existing motor is reversible via the usual DPDT relay bit which I have
not wired back up since putting it under lcnc servo speed control, but
what
is that encoder looking bit on its butt? Brushless commutator? Or speed
feedback to the controller?

If no show stopper answers, I'll buy it now in the morning.

Cheers, Gene
--
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up!
My views
http://www.armchairpatriot.com/What%20Has%20America%20Become.shtml
The San Diego Freeway. Official Parking Lot of the 1984 Olympics!
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
law-abiding citizens.

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread Gene Heskett

On Tuesday 30 April 2013 11:33:32 jeremy youngs did opine:

 one of them had a flatted 5/8 shaft, the other it was pressed on.
 if you remove the flywheel you have to put a fan on it , if you will run
 it slow a fan is probably a good idea , i just used an old pc fan.
 there are several motors for around 40 bucks, as to the reverse feature
 i haver thoughyt of building an h bridge , but as mentioned before when
 i Am a little less concerned with getting back to missouri and out of
 ny i will splurge for jons controller and run it on rectified 120 .
 also one of them had an optical encoder that i had to make a disc for ,
 it is jut a disc with one slot. the other one i believe has a tach or
 other feedbak but has not been hooked up and seems to work fine . the
 encoder motor would not run without it .
 and thats about all i know about that
 
 :)
 
 On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 4:23 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote:
  On Tuesday 30 April 2013 04:10:18 jeremy youngs did opine:
   gene did say
   The day of picking up a
   defunct treadmill, or a surplus motor from one, seem to now be in
   the distant past, with one that I saw on fleabay, clearly well
   abused, 6 months ago that still had 3 days to go and was above
   200USD then
   
   my results from flea bay are different and 2 of my 3 machines run
   craigslist freebie motors and controllers ( until i scrape the coin
   for a mesa card and jons servo amp:)
   
   
   http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-5-HP-TREADMILL-MOTOR-complet-setup-with-co
   ntro
   ller-and-cables-/251265385921?pt=US_Cardio_Treadmillshash=item3a80
   9585c 1
   
   
   ymmv :)
  
  Now that I could get interested in.  How hard will it be to remove
  that flywheel and mount flange so that there is a snowballs chance of
  hiding it close enough to the existing motor pocket in the back of a
  7x to allow a slightly longer toothed belt work?  I could find an
  extra inch under its position easily with a sabre saw as the so
  called chip pan is no longer under mine, much easier to clean under
  it w/o it.
  
  The existing motor is reversible via the usual DPDT relay bit which I
  have not wired back up since putting it under lcnc servo speed
  control, but what is that encoder looking bit on its butt?  Brushless
  commutator?  Or speed feedback to the controller?
  
  If no show stopper answers, I'll buy it now in the morning.
  
  Cheers, Gene
  --
  
  There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
  
  -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
  My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up!
  My views
  http://www.armchairpatriot.com/What%20Has%20America%20Become.shtml
  The San Diego Freeway.  Official Parking Lot of the 1984 Olympics!
  A pen in the hand of this president is far more
  dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
  
   law-abiding citizens.
  
  --
   Introducing AppDynamics Lite, a free troubleshooting tool for
  Java/.NET Get 100% visibility into your production application - at
  no cost. Code-level diagnostics for performance bottlenecks with 2%
  overhead Download for free and get started troubleshooting in
  minutes. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap1
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I saw several of the $40 ones that didn't have the slotted wheel, but is 
seems most are 2.5HP and 18+ amps, way too much, so I might bid on one of 
the 1 to 1.25HP versions, one looked as if it was ball bearings rather than 
sleeves, better IMO.  And a $20 bill, but what controller?  Fans I have, 
but they only cool the outside, that built in one sucks thru, which 
considering the damages one can do to the PM's with what could be called 
reasonable heating, I think I'd arrange a small cover of some kind around 
the brush end of it and have a muffin sucking or blowing thru the motor.

Again, that depends on how much room has been cut away for it under the 
bed.  Which isn't much.  More than likely a new pivot mount will need to be 
made behind the bed, and additional metal removal for the passage of the 
drive belt at the more rearward location.

From looking at the existing JT250 controller, I get the impression that 
with more access to cooling than it gets where it is, 5-7 amps might be 
doable.  Probably more dependent on those ceramic resistors than on the 
solid state devices if they aren't sweepings from the Fairchild floor that 
is.  I am not allergic to moving all that to a bigger box out back.

And I just found a 1 HP version that claims its all there, controller and 
all, so I made the first bid.  Since its so low powered compared to most, 
that might even be the Buy It Now price, but he didn't show one. :)

Now, if paypal isn't screwing the moose again, I'll have something to play 
with

Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread Gene Heskett

On Tuesday 30 April 2013 12:03:09 jeremy youngs did opine:

 gene here is a bit more variety
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR10.TRC2_nk
 w=treadmill+motor_sacat=0_from=R40
 
Thanks Jeremy, I just now bid on a 1 horse full kit.  Play toys maybe, but 
a learning tool too.

Thanks.

 On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 10:55 AM, jeremy youngs 
jcyoung...@gmail.comwrote:
  one of them had a flatted 5/8 shaft, the other it was pressed on.
  if you remove the flywheel you have to put a fan on it , if you will
  run it slow a fan is probably a good idea , i just used an old pc
  fan. there are several motors for around 40 bucks, as to the reverse
  feature i haver thoughyt of building an h bridge , but as mentioned
  before when i Am a little less concerned with getting back to
  missouri and out of ny i will splurge for jons controller and run it
  on rectified 120 .
  also one of them had an optical encoder that i had to make a disc for
  , it is jut a disc with one slot. the other one i believe has a tach
  or other feedbak but has not been hooked up and seems to work fine .
  the encoder motor would not run without it .
  and thats about all i know about that
  
  :)
  
  On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 4:23 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com 
wrote:
  On Tuesday 30 April 2013 04:10:18 jeremy youngs did opine:
   gene did say
   The day of picking up a
   defunct treadmill, or a surplus motor from one, seem to now be in
   the distant past, with one that I saw on fleabay, clearly well
   abused, 6 months ago that still had 3 days to go and was above
   200USD then
   
   my results from flea bay are different and 2 of my 3 machines run
   craigslist freebie motors and controllers ( until i scrape the coin
   for a mesa card and jons servo amp:)
  
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-5-HP-TREADMILL-MOTOR-complet-setup-with-con
  tro
  
   ller-and-cables-/251265385921?pt=US_Cardio_Treadmillshash=item3a80
   9585c 1
   
   
   ymmv :)
  
  Now that I could get interested in.  How hard will it be to remove
  that flywheel and mount flange so that there is a snowballs chance
  of hiding it close enough to the existing motor pocket in the back
  of a 7x to allow a slightly longer toothed belt work?  I could find
  an extra inch under its position easily with a sabre saw as the so
  called chip pan is no longer under mine, much easier to clean under
  it w/o it.
  
  The existing motor is reversible via the usual DPDT relay bit which I
  have not wired back up since putting it under lcnc servo speed
  control, but what
  is that encoder looking bit on its butt?  Brushless commutator?  Or
  speed feedback to the controller?
  
  If no show stopper answers, I'll buy it now in the morning.
  
  Cheers, Gene
  --
  
  There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
  
  -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
  My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up!
  My views
  http://www.armchairpatriot.com/What%20Has%20America%20Become.shtml
  The San Diego Freeway.  Official Parking Lot of the 1984 Olympics!
  A pen in the hand of this president is far more
  dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
  
   law-abiding citizens.
  
  -
  - Introducing AppDynamics Lite, a free troubleshooting tool
  for Java/.NET Get 100% visibility into your production application -
  at no cost. Code-level diagnostics for performance bottlenecks with
  2% overhead Download for free and get started troubleshooting in
  minutes. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap1
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Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up!
My views 
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That brief interlude between nothingness and eternity.
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread Dave

You will have $3-400 into a 10 hp phase converter in no time.  (I have 
put a few together).   If you need three phase for other things.. go the 
phase converter route and see how that works.

If you are going to run the lathe a lot, I would look for a relatively 
new Industrial DC drive that is compatible with your motor.  Not the 
little guys, but the industrial variety..  They are normally rated in 
amps of armature current.

They still make them.   Siemens has some really nice DC drives.  I setup 
a number of them for a plant that uses them to draw copper wire.   They 
were 25-75hp.

I bet you can run most of them off single phase.  It should not be 
difficult to fool the drive into thinking that it has all three phases - 
use a power capacitor to connect non-connected phase etc.

Just derate the drive.   If you need a real 10 hp, look for a drive that 
can handle a 15 hp DC motor.  The better drives have overtemp alarms and 
auto shutdown so burning one up should be difficult.

If you keep looking your should be able to find something for less than 
$750.

There are a lot of DC drives on Ebay.

Dave



On 4/29/2013 3:18 PM, Cecil Thomas wrote:
 Thanks for all the inputs.  I did quite a bit of research concerning
 the effectiveness vs the amount of work vs the expense of getting the
 machine on line and making chips.
 1. Tossing the entire drive train and replacing with a 10 hp 3ph
 motor and vfd to run from 220 single phase.. can't be done... no
 10 hp single phase vfd available at any price.

 2. same as above but use 7.5 hp vfd with back gear  same problem
 as above plus the backgear is PART OF the DC motor and requires
 considerable machining and adapting to take the end bell from the old
 motor and incorporate it into the new drive train.

 3. Note that 1 and 2 are what Monarch does now for their new and
 rebuilt 10ee's they are NOT for single phase 220 use.

 4. Drive the existing system from a single phase in 5 hp vfd.. I
 could not find a 5 hp single phase in vfd and even in the lower hp
 ranges I was looking at $400 and up for which I would be buying all
 kinds of bells and whistles which would be the proverbial mammary
 glands on a male swine since the 3 ph motor must run at 60 hz for the
 rest of the system to work correctly.   Also I would be required to
 bypass any and all means of control from the lathe itself so as not
 to disconnect the vfd load downstream.

 5. Replace the 3 ph motor with a 5 hp single phase motor..
 Probably the neatest solution but the motor and generator are a
 single unit so the single phase motor would have to actually spin
 both the motor and generator IF... there was room enough to mount the
 extra motor and there's not.  I even considered having the 3ph motor
 rewound as single phase but a couple of local motor shops said they
 were not even interested.

 6. Toss the MG and install a DC control for the motor. Most
 integral hp DC controllers are rated 180 volts wide open he 10ee
 generator produces from 0 to 300 volts to the motor armature.  It
 would be impossible to recreate that armature voltage from an off the
 shelf controller and problematic to get there with a home built
 one.  The speeds above 1500 rpm are achieved by reducing field
 voltage (120 V DC on the field up to 1500 rpm) so that would not be a
 problem.  300 VDC from 220 VAC is a challenge.


 7. Make the existing 3ph motor single phase by installing a static
 phase converter and giving up about 1/3 of the hp..  cheapest solution.

 8. Buy a pretty prebuilt Rotary Phase Converter panel for $160 and
 add a locally purchased used 7.5 hp idler for $0 and with a couple of
 hours of running conduit and hanging the panel I'm in business.


 Cecil
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread John Kasunich



On Tue, Apr 30, 2013, at 01:37 PM, Dave wrote:
 You will have $3-400 into a 10 hp phase converter in no time.  (I have 
 put a few together).   If you need three phase for other things.. go the 
 phase converter route and see how that works.
 
 If you are going to run the lathe a lot, I would look for a relatively 
 new Industrial DC drive that is compatible with your motor.  Not the 
 little guys, but the industrial variety..  They are normally rated in 
 amps of armature current.
 
 They still make them.   Siemens has some really nice DC drives.  I setup 
 a number of them for a plant that uses them to draw copper wire.   They 
 were 25-75hp.
 
 I bet you can run most of them off single phase.  It should not be 
 difficult to fool the drive into thinking that it has all three phases - 
 use a power capacitor to connect non-connected phase etc.

Actually it is much harder to run a DC drive on single phase.  Most
industrial DC drives that I'm familiar with use phase controlled SCRs
to run the motor.  They simply will not run on single phase, no way,
no how.  And they won't run on fake three-phase coming from a 
static phase converter (capacitors only).  They might run on three
phase from a rotary converter, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 
 Just derate the drive.   If you need a real 10 hp, look for a drive that 
 can handle a 15 hp DC motor.  The better drives have overtemp alarms and 
 auto shutdown so burning one up should be difficult.
 
 If you keep looking your should be able to find something for less than 
 $750.
 
 There are a lot of DC drives on Ebay.
 
 Dave
 
-- 
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  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread Stephen Dubovsky

SCR dc drives?  Is this the 70's?

LOL. Im kidding.  But only partially:)

SMD


On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 2:08 PM, John Kasunich jmkasun...@fastmail.fmwrote:



 On Tue, Apr 30, 2013, at 01:37 PM, Dave wrote:
  You will have $3-400 into a 10 hp phase converter in no time.  (I have
  put a few together).   If you need three phase for other things.. go the
  phase converter route and see how that works.
 
  If you are going to run the lathe a lot, I would look for a relatively
  new Industrial DC drive that is compatible with your motor.  Not the
  little guys, but the industrial variety..  They are normally rated in
  amps of armature current.
 
  They still make them.   Siemens has some really nice DC drives.  I setup
  a number of them for a plant that uses them to draw copper wire.   They
  were 25-75hp.
 
  I bet you can run most of them off single phase.  It should not be
  difficult to fool the drive into thinking that it has all three phases -
  use a power capacitor to connect non-connected phase etc.

 Actually it is much harder to run a DC drive on single phase.  Most
 industrial DC drives that I'm familiar with use phase controlled SCRs
 to run the motor.  They simply will not run on single phase, no way,
 no how.  And they won't run on fake three-phase coming from a
 static phase converter (capacitors only).  They might run on three
 phase from a rotary converter, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 
  Just derate the drive.   If you need a real 10 hp, look for a drive that
  can handle a 15 hp DC motor.  The better drives have overtemp alarms and
  auto shutdown so burning one up should be difficult.
 
  If you keep looking your should be able to find something for less than
  $750.
 
  There are a lot of DC drives on Ebay.
 
  Dave
 
 --
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   jmkasun...@fastmail.fm


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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread John Kasunich



On Tue, Apr 30, 2013, at 02:14 PM, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:
 SCR dc drives?  Is this the 70's?
 
 LOL. Im kidding.  But only partially:)
 
 SMD

For anything more than a few HP, SCRs still rule the DC drive world.

I guess the toy stuff, under 1HP, is all PWM based these days.
Small but not toys, say 1 to 5 HP, is probably a mix.  But I bet there
aren't many PWM DC drives above 5HP.

My perspective is skewed somewhat, since the company I work
for makes industrial DC drives, from about 20HP up.  We don't
mess with the tiny stuff.  We recently shipped a 3000HP DC
drive for use in a steel mill.


-- 
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  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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[Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread Pete Matos

John
 That is amazing to me mani mean I have seen some monster electric
motors before but 3k HP is nutz ..   I know the motors they used on the
draw bridges in South Florida where I used to live were big DC I believe
and they lifted some amazing loads via counterbalance  and gearing.Lots
of industrial application for motors like this.   I also find it
interesting that there is so much resistance to electric vehicles in the
world when so many of the largest and most powerful vehicles are moved with
electric power.  It is an awesome force and must be interesting to work in
that field.  Peace

Pete



On Tuesday, April 30, 2013, John Kasunich jmkasun...@fastmail.fm wrote:


 On Tue, Apr 30, 2013, at 02:14 PM, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:
 SCR dc drives?  Is this the 70's?

 LOL. Im kidding.  But only partially:)

 SMD

 For anything more than a few HP, SCRs still rule the DC drive world.

 I guess the toy stuff, under 1HP, is all PWM based these days.
 Small but not toys, say 1 to 5 HP, is probably a mix.  But I bet there
 aren't many PWM DC drives above 5HP.

 My perspective is skewed somewhat, since the company I work
 for makes industrial DC drives, from about 20HP up.  We don't
 mess with the tiny stuff.  We recently shipped a 3000HP DC
 drive for use in a steel mill.


 --
   John Kasunich
   jmkasun...@fastmail.fm


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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread Przemek Klosowski

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Pete Matos petefro...@gmail.com wrote:
 John
  That is amazing to me mani mean I have seen some monster electric
 motors before but 3k HP is nutz ..

There's an industrial shredder in New Jersey rated at 10,000 hp. They
have to turn it on and off at night on weekends because it could trip
entire Newark metro area otherwise. Main maintenance problem was
quoted as 'keeping it from shredding itself'.

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread Dave

On 4/30/2013 2:08 PM, John Kasunich wrote:

 On Tue, Apr 30, 2013, at 01:37 PM, Dave wrote:

 You will have $3-400 into a 10 hp phase converter in no time.  (I have
 put a few together).   If you need three phase for other things.. go the
 phase converter route and see how that works.

 If you are going to run the lathe a lot, I would look for a relatively
 new Industrial DC drive that is compatible with your motor.  Not the
 little guys, but the industrial variety..  They are normally rated in
 amps of armature current.

 They still make them.   Siemens has some really nice DC drives.  I setup
 a number of them for a plant that uses them to draw copper wire.   They
 were 25-75hp.

 I bet you can run most of them off single phase.  It should not be
 difficult to fool the drive into thinking that it has all three phases -
 use a power capacitor to connect non-connected phase etc.
  
 Actually it is much harder to run a DC drive on single phase.  Most
 industrial DC drives that I'm familiar with use phase controlled SCRs
 to run the motor.  They simply will not run on single phase, no way,
 no how.  And they won't run on fake three-phase coming from a
 static phase converter (capacitors only).  They might run on three
 phase from a rotary converter, but I wouldn't hold my breath.


 Just derate the drive.   If you need a real 10 hp, look for a drive that
 can handle a 15 hp DC motor.  The better drives have overtemp alarms and
 auto shutdown so burning one up should be difficult.

 If you keep looking your should be able to find something for less than
 $750.

 There are a lot of DC drives on Ebay.

 Dave

  

Upon further investigation... you are correct.  There really is no DC 
bus in those drives..unlike an inverter drive.. so nix that idea..

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread Kent A. Reed

On 4/30/2013 3:20 PM, Pete Matos wrote:
 I also find it
 interesting that there is so much resistance to electric vehicles in the
 world when so many of the largest and most powerful vehicles are moved with
 electric power.

In a word, batteries. Back in the 1970s the weak link in the national 
electric vehicle RD program of the time was the battery. It remains so 
today. Every few years one research group or another issues a breathless 
press release about its laboratory breakthrough which will 
revolutionize battery technology (searching the Internet on electric 
battery breakthrough is instructive). There have been advances 
certainly but they've been more evolutionary than revolutionary. It's 
not my area of competence but my impression is that current batteries 
suffer various combinations of too big, too heavy, too little storage 
capacity, too limited in discharge current, too difficult to charge, too 
short lived, too dangerous, too environmentally challenging to produce 
and to dispose, and of course too expensive, which is too bad.

Regards,
Kent


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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread Dave

There are more large motors like that around than you might suspect.

The local Omnisource scrap yard had a 6000 hp motor blow and they 
replaced it with a bigger motor.  I think 8000 hp.
They shred cars and whatever else they can fit into it.

I went to an aluminum recycling place once that needed some help with 
their controls and they had a 5000 hp motor driving their aluminum 
shredder.  The motor looked like a small building with a big shaft 
hanging out the side.
Every once in a while the shredder would jam up and people would have to 
climb into the machinery with pry bars to get the stuck pieces out..  no 
thanks...  That machine was crazy loud.   They used front end 
construction loaders to load the conveyor that
fed the shredder.   The result was small mountains of shredded aluminum.

There is a steel mill nearby that has some huge motors that drive the 
roller shafts directly - no gearboxes.   The motors are so big that they 
have doors in the side of them with steps leading up to the doors so 
people can go into the motors to service them.  The doors are full 
height..not short ones..

Those motors run off of Cycloconverter drives.  Also crazy big.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycloconverter

Dave



On 4/30/2013 3:20 PM, Pete Matos wrote:
 John
   That is amazing to me mani mean I have seen some monster electric
 motors before but 3k HP is nutz ..   I know the motors they used on the
 draw bridges in South Florida where I used to live were big DC I believe
 and they lifted some amazing loads via counterbalance  and gearing.Lots
 of industrial application for motors like this.   I also find it
 interesting that there is so much resistance to electric vehicles in the
 world when so many of the largest and most powerful vehicles are moved with
 electric power.  It is an awesome force and must be interesting to work in
 that field.  Peace

 Pete



 On Tuesday, April 30, 2013, John Kasunichjmkasun...@fastmail.fm  wrote:


 On Tue, Apr 30, 2013, at 02:14 PM, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:
  
 SCR dc drives?  Is this the 70's?

 LOL. Im kidding.  But only partially:)

 SMD

 For anything more than a few HP, SCRs still rule the DC drive world.

 I guess the toy stuff, under 1HP, is all PWM based these days.
 Small but not toys, say 1 to 5 HP, is probably a mix.  But I bet there
 aren't many PWM DC drives above 5HP.

 My perspective is skewed somewhat, since the company I work
 for makes industrial DC drives, from about 20HP up.  We don't
 mess with the tiny stuff.  We recently shipped a 3000HP DC
 drive for use in a steel mill.


 --
John Kasunich
jmkasun...@fastmail.fm


  
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread andy pugh

On 30 April 2013 21:50, Kent A. Reed kentallanr...@gmail.com wrote:

 Every few years one research group or another issues a breathless
 press release about its laboratory breakthrough which will
 revolutionize battery technology (searching the Internet on electric
 battery breakthrough is instructive). There have been advances
 certainly but they've been more evolutionary than revolutionary

I consider the performance of the LiIon batteries in my power tools
pretty revolutionary. I cut the plug off my main-powered drill and
used it for something else.
Compared to the first generation NiCad drills etc there is no comparision.

Another area to look at is the LiPo cells in toy helicopters. I looked
at an electric flying machine about 20 years ago as an academic
research project,  and it was basically impossible.
Now they are childrens' toys.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread Eric Keller

We have a scrapyard nearby that has a lot of very large motors, but I think
they might be from trains and there is an obvious size limit on those.  The
ones you describe seem bigger.


On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com wrote:

 There are more large motors like that around than you might suspect.

 The local Omnisource scrap yard had a 6000 hp motor blow and they
 replaced it with a bigger motor.  I think 8000 hp.
 They shred cars and whatever else they can fit into it.

 I went to an aluminum recycling place once that needed some help with
 their controls and they had a 5000 hp motor driving their aluminum
 shredder.  The motor looked like a small building with a big shaft
 hanging out the side.
 Every once in a while the shredder would jam up and people would have to
 climb into the machinery with pry bars to get the stuck pieces out..  no
 thanks...  That machine was crazy loud.   They used front end
 construction loaders to load the conveyor that
 fed the shredder.   The result was small mountains of shredded aluminum.

 There is a steel mill nearby that has some huge motors that drive the
 roller shafts directly - no gearboxes.   The motors are so big that they
 have doors in the side of them with steps leading up to the doors so
 people can go into the motors to service them.  The doors are full
 height..not short ones..

 Those motors run off of Cycloconverter drives.  Also crazy big.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycloconverter

 Dave



 On 4/30/2013 3:20 PM, Pete Matos wrote:
  John
That is amazing to me mani mean I have seen some monster
 electric
  motors before but 3k HP is nutz ..   I know the motors they used on
 the
  draw bridges in South Florida where I used to live were big DC I believe
  and they lifted some amazing loads via counterbalance  and gearing.
  Lots
  of industrial application for motors like this.   I also find it
  interesting that there is so much resistance to electric vehicles in the
  world when so many of the largest and most powerful vehicles are moved
 with
  electric power.  It is an awesome force and must be interesting to work
 in
  that field.  Peace
 
  Pete
 
 
 
  On Tuesday, April 30, 2013, John Kasunichjmkasun...@fastmail.fm
  wrote:
 
 
  On Tue, Apr 30, 2013, at 02:14 PM, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:
 
  SCR dc drives?  Is this the 70's?
 
  LOL. Im kidding.  But only partially:)
 
  SMD
 
  For anything more than a few HP, SCRs still rule the DC drive world.
 
  I guess the toy stuff, under 1HP, is all PWM based these days.
  Small but not toys, say 1 to 5 HP, is probably a mix.  But I bet there
  aren't many PWM DC drives above 5HP.
 
  My perspective is skewed somewhat, since the company I work
  for makes industrial DC drives, from about 20HP up.  We don't
  mess with the tiny stuff.  We recently shipped a 3000HP DC
  drive for use in a steel mill.
 
 
  --
 John Kasunich
 jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread Gregg Eshelman

--- On Tue, 4/30/13, John Kasunich jmkasun...@fastmail.fm wrote:

 From: John Kasunich jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE
 To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013, 12:56 PM

 On Tue, Apr 30, 2013, at 02:14 PM, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:
  SCR dc drives?  Is this the 70's?

  LOL. Im kidding.  But only partially:)

  SMD

 For anything more than a few HP, SCRs still rule the DC
 drive world.

 I guess the toy stuff, under 1HP, is all PWM based these
 days.
 Small but not toys, say 1 to 5 HP, is probably a mix. 
 But I bet there aren't many PWM DC drives above 5HP.

kbelectronics.net has PWM for just about anything you want to spin with DC

On the lower end...
The KBWT-26 list price is $168.00 (1HP)
The KBWT-210 list price is $228.00 (2HP)

Those are bare units, no enclosure, no fancy display. Setup for an on/off and a 
speed rheostat. They have a safety system so the speed has to be turned to zero 
before they'll power up.

They have ones capable of plenty higher outputs, as well as ones with fancy 
enclosures, displays, buttons etc.

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-30 Thread Jon Elson

Gregg Eshelman wrote:
 --- On Tue, 4/30/13, John Kasunich jmkasun...@fastmail.fm wrote:

 From: John Kasunich jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE
 To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013, 12:56 PM

 On Tue, Apr 30, 2013, at 02:14 PM, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:

 SCR dc drives?  Is this the 70's?

 LOL. Im kidding.  But only partially:)

 SMD

 For anything more than a few HP, SCRs still rule the DC
 drive world.

 I guess the toy stuff, under 1HP, is all PWM based these
 days.
 Small but not toys, say 1 to 5 HP, is probably a mix. 
 But I bet there aren't many PWM DC drives above 5HP.

 kbelectronics.net has PWM for just about anything you want to spin with DC

 On the lower end...
 The KBWT-26 list price is $168.00 (1HP)
 The KBWT-210 list price is $228.00 (2HP)

And, I THINK they are SCR.  I have a KBMG-212D here, and the motor
buzzes like a buzzer when it starts.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-29 Thread Gene Heskett

On Monday 29 April 2013 01:59:23 Cecil Thomas did opine:

 I recently was given a 1953 Monarch 10EE basic Model lathe. It is
 the Ward Leonard motor generator type so no electronics to deal with.
 The basic model has no lead screw and no gearing for screw cutting.
 There is also no taper attachment.  It does have carriage and cross
 slide power feeds.
 
 I have installed a rotary phase converter and have the lathe powered
 up and it is completely functional.  The lack of thread cutting begs
 for the lathe to be converted to CNC.  I have successfully converted
 a 7x10 and a jet 9 x 20 and am comfortable with the project.

 My only
 real concern is going to be integrating spindle speed control because
 the existing control utilizes two huge rheostats to control the drive
 motor field and the generator field.  I might just lash up a servo or
 stepper with a belt to the control knob.

The (lack of) speed of response in all that mechanical doings might make 
that less than successful.  But I am not familiar with the Ward Leonard 
motor generator either.

It sounds as if its a 3 phase AC motor turning a DC generator which in turn 
powers a DC motor that actually drives the spindle?

For those DC controls, I'd think it would be a lot more power efficient to 
toss the rheostats in favor of pwm controlled hexfet power devices that 
linuxcnc can control directly by using opto-isolation techniques which 
would give 10 to 1000 times faster control, with perhaps 1/100th (or less) 
of the power losses the rheostats will have, directly from a quadrature 
sensing disk and opto-interrupter detection of not just spindle speed, but 
spindle position in real time as it rotates.
 
Just throwing out alternate, more efficient  faster control ideas.  My  
$0.02 IOW.

The general idea is that of having a PWM signal from linuxcnc turn the 
power on fully for a period of time dependent on a comparison of the set 
speed with the real speed, and turning it off and shorting the winding so 
the current continues to flow, but will decay until its not enough.  Do 
this 1,000 times or more a second and you can have an extremely rigid speed 
control because if the encoder feedback says its 3 degrees behind where its 
supposed to be, it will hit it harder until that position error is 
effectively nulled out.  Real time control adjustment at every encoder 
transition.

I only have a 50 slot disk on my 7x12, no room for any more so I get a 
fresh error reading 200 times a revolution, but I also have a PWM to 0-10 
volt converter in the path which slows the control, a lot.  But I can start 
it at 200 rpm, wrap a leather belt around a 5 chuck and blow a fuse before 
there is a detectable by ear speed change.

 Has anyone converted a 10EE to CNC?
 
 Cecil

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On 29 April 2013 06:33, Cecil Thomas wctho...@chartertn.net wrote:


  My only
 real concern is going to be integrating spindle speed control because
 the existing control utilizes two huge rheostats to control the drive
 motor field and the generator field.  I might just lash up a servo or
 stepper with a belt to the control knob.

In your position I would be strongly tempted to remove the whole Ward
Leonard setup, probably offering it to someone wanting to repair their
lathe.

You seem to have a single phase supply spinning a 3-phase idler motor
spinning a second three phase motor spinning a generator spinning a DC
motor.

The Ward-Leonard arrangement is fairly elaborate in itself, but
running it from a rotary phase converter is just excessive.

I suggest that you might want to consider a single phase motor driving
a generator to electrolyse water to run a hydrogen-powered fuel cell
to create the DC supply. (Hmm, my attempt to think up the most
ludicrous-possible arrangement has actually come up with a _simpler_
system!)

It has to make more sense to couple a 3-phase motor and
single-phase-input VFD directly to the spindle?

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-29 Thread John Kasunich



On Mon, Apr 29, 2013, at 06:00 AM, andy pugh wrote:
 On 29 April 2013 06:33, Cecil Thomas wctho...@chartertn.net wrote:
 
 
   My only
  real concern is going to be integrating spindle speed control because
  the existing control utilizes two huge rheostats to control the drive
  motor field and the generator field.  I might just lash up a servo or
  stepper with a belt to the control knob.
 
 In your position I would be strongly tempted to remove the whole Ward
 Leonard setup, probably offering it to someone wanting to repair their
 lathe.

I'm not sure I would be so quick to discard the Ward Leonard setup
(and I design electronic motor drives for a living!)

The Ward Leonard setup is very rugged to overloads and
other abuse, and probably provides a much better speed/torque
curve over a wider range then you would get with a VFD and
an AC motor.

 You seem to have a single phase supply spinning a 3-phase idler motor
 spinning a second three phase motor spinning a generator spinning a DC
 motor.
 
 The Ward-Leonard arrangement is fairly elaborate in itself, but
 running it from a rotary phase converter is just excessive.

Agreed about the phase converter part.

I'd be tempted to investigate spinning the generator with a
single phase motor, or simply adding caps directly to the
electrical box on the lathe so that the existing three phase 
constant speed AC motor will run (at reduced power) on
single phase.

 It has to make more sense to couple a 3-phase motor and
 single-phase-input VFD directly to the spindle?

Before you do that, carefully study the speed/torque
capabilities of the new system and compare them to
what the factory system can deliver.  A 3HP AC motor
driven by a VFD can deliver 3HP at the nominal speed
of the motor ONLY.  Below nominal speed (also known
as base speed), the torque is constant, and the power
thus drops off linearly.  At half speed, you only get 1.5HP.
At 1/4 speed, you get 3/4HP.

Above base speed there is usually a modest constant
power range, maybe 2:1, over which you can get roughly
3HP (typically the power drops off slowly even in that range).
Above that range power drops off rapidly.  And most AC
motors are not designed to run above base speed at
all.

DC motors also have a base speed, and also deliver
constant torque below base speed.  But they can have
a much wider constant power range above base speed.
The engineers at Monarch almost certainly chose that
DC motor to have a very wide constant power range, 
and the gear/pulley ratios were chosen so that the 
motor runs above base speed (in the constant power
region) most of the time.

Discarding the DC motor will almost certainly mean
a significant performance penalty.  Keeping the DC
motor and driving it with either a DC drive, or the 
existing motor-generator set, will keep the performance.


 
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On 29 April 2013 15:16, John Kasunich jmkasun...@fastmail.fm wrote:

 Discarding the DC motor will almost certainly mean
 a significant performance penalty.  Keeping the DC
 motor and driving it with either a DC drive, or the
 existing motor-generator set, will keep the performance.

Good point, I didn't think of that.

There are a couple of 2hp DC drives on eBay for around the $200 mark.
I didn't find any 3HP ones, though there are several Unidrive units
on there, which can drive pretty much anything.

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-29 Thread sam sokolik

We used a dc drive to run the rotor - then used the (IIRC) existing 
large adjustable resistor to drop the field as you increased the speed.. 
(from simple rectified dc).This is still a manual lathe.  I 
think though it would be pretty easy to use 2 dc drives - one for the 
rotor and one for the field.  (seems easy enough to control it from hal..)

Yes - the dc motor has very nice low end torque..

sam


On 4/29/2013 9:48 AM, andy pugh wrote:
 On 29 April 2013 15:16, John Kasunich jmkasun...@fastmail.fm wrote:

 Discarding the DC motor will almost certainly mean
 a significant performance penalty.  Keeping the DC
 motor and driving it with either a DC drive, or the
 existing motor-generator set, will keep the performance.
 Good point, I didn't think of that.

 There are a couple of 2hp DC drives on eBay for around the $200 mark.
 I didn't find any 3HP ones, though there are several Unidrive units
 on there, which can drive pretty much anything.



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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

On 29 April 2013 16:04, sam sokolik sa...@empirescreen.com wrote:

  I
 think though it would be pretty easy to use 2 dc drives - one for the
 rotor and one for the field.  (seems easy enough to control it from hal..)

And the Mesa 7i29 has two channels...

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-29 Thread Jon Elson

Gene Heskett wrote:

 It sounds as if its a 3 phase AC motor turning a DC generator which in turn 
 powers a DC motor that actually drives the spindle?
   
Essentially right.
 For those DC controls, I'd think it would be a lot more power efficient to 
 toss the rheostats in favor of pwm controlled hexfet power devices that 
 linuxcnc can control directly by using opto-isolation techniques which 
 would give 10 to 1000 times faster control, with perhaps 1/100th (or less) 
 of the power losses the rheostats will have, directly from a quadrature 
 sensing disk and opto-interrupter detection of not just spindle speed, but 
 spindle position in real time as it rotates.
   
Lathes don't really need to change speed on a dime.  The spindle is not 
usually
used as a positioning axis.  The rheostats control generator field and motor
field, and are not that large.  For low-speed range they control the 
generator field,
then for the high speed range they weaken the motor field.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-29 Thread Jon Elson

andy pugh wrote:

 It has to make more sense to couple a 3-phase motor and
 single-phase-input VFD directly to the spindle?
   
The motor is an odd frame, and also has MASSIVE torque at low
speed.  So, the 10EE has no back gear.  It probably works MUCH
better at low speed than a VFD and typical 3-phase motor.
You could make an argument for a DC drive for the motor, but
that could be a major project, and not a good one if you aren't an
electrical engineer.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-29 Thread Steve Stallings

 -Original Message-
 From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com] 
 Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 1:00 PM
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

 andy pugh wrote:

  It has to make more sense to couple a 3-phase motor and
  single-phase-input VFD directly to the spindle?

 The motor is an odd frame, and also has MASSIVE torque at low
 speed.  So, the 10EE has no back gear.  It probably works MUCH
 better at low speed than a VFD and typical 3-phase motor.
 You could make an argument for a DC drive for the motor, but
 that could be a major project, and not a good one if you aren't an
 electrical engineer.

 Jon

The 10EE does utilize a DC motor with impressive low speed
torque, but it none-the-less does have a backgear. The gear
assembly is on the end of the motor, not in the headstock.

See this photo:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/at
tachments/f10/19126d1263689447-backgear-monarch-10-ee-3-hp-motor-back-gear.j
pgimgrefurl=http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/backgear-19
6511/h=768w=1024sz=76tbnid=v8fc691q6yRUYM:tbnh=102tbnw=136prev=/searc
h%3Fq%3Dmonarch%2B10ee%2Bback%2Bgear%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Duzoom=1q=monarch
+10ee+back+gearusg=__Zttj_U5_FmZ9wlMHQYqmIwTmtFA=docid=beP_ccGHfzktLMhl=e
nsa=Xei=0q1-UaaxBonc2AXar4HoBAved=0CD0Q9QEwAQdur=5072 

Sorry for the run-on URL, but I could not find a shorter one.

Steve Stallings

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-29 Thread Stephen Dubovsky

IIRC, Monarch threw all the silly stuff out and used AC motors + VFDs for
the late 10EEs.  Supposedly 7.5hp w/ backgear, 10hp w/o.  Im sure a 5+hp ac
system would beat the stuffings out of one of the orig monarch drive
systems.

CNC spindles do need to change speed rapidly for facing using CSS.

Also, inverter drive induction motors can do 3:1+ constant hp range.
Eventually the rotor inductance causes the speed^2 term to catch up but it
can be way out there.  A DC motor is a mechanically commutated AC machine.
There is nothing performance-wise it can do better than an electrically
commutated AC machine.

Stephen



On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Steve Stallings steve...@newsguy.comwrote:



  -Original Message-
  From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com]
  Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 1:00 PM
  To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
  Subject: Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE
 
  andy pugh wrote:
  
   It has to make more sense to couple a 3-phase motor and
   single-phase-input VFD directly to the spindle?
  
  The motor is an odd frame, and also has MASSIVE torque at low
  speed.  So, the 10EE has no back gear.  It probably works MUCH
  better at low speed than a VFD and typical 3-phase motor.
  You could make an argument for a DC drive for the motor, but
  that could be a major project, and not a good one if you aren't an
  electrical engineer.
 
  Jon

 The 10EE does utilize a DC motor with impressive low speed
 torque, but it none-the-less does have a backgear. The gear
 assembly is on the end of the motor, not in the headstock.

 See this photo:

 
 http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/at

 tachments/f10/19126d1263689447-backgear-monarch-10-ee-3-hp-motor-back-gear.j

 pgimgrefurl=http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/backgear-19

 6511/h=768w=1024sz=76tbnid=v8fc691q6yRUYM:tbnh=102tbnw=136prev=/searc

 h%3Fq%3Dmonarch%2B10ee%2Bback%2Bgear%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Duzoom=1q=monarch

 +10ee+back+gearusg=__Zttj_U5_FmZ9wlMHQYqmIwTmtFA=docid=beP_ccGHfzktLMhl=e
 nsa=Xei=0q1-UaaxBonc2AXar4HoBAved=0CD0Q9QEwAQdur=5072

 Sorry for the run-on URL, but I could not find a shorter one.

 Steve Stallings



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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-29 Thread John Kasunich



On Mon, Apr 29, 2013, at 02:20 PM, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:

 Also, inverter drive induction motors can do 3:1+ constant hp range.

Sure, you can get 3:1 constant power range from an AC motor, but only
if you are using a motor that was designed and specified for that application.
Typically has a lower base speed than a generic motor of that frame size,
speed, and HP.

But if you consider the motors that the average hobbyist can actually
get their hands on, I think getting 3:1 is a long shot.  Generic 1800 RPM 
AC motors are about 2:1 or maybe a bit more.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Monarch 10EE drive-train can do 4:1
constant power.

 Eventually the rotor inductance causes the speed^2 term to catch up but it
 can be way out there.  A DC motor is a mechanically commutated AC machine.
 There is nothing performance-wise it can do better than an electrically
 commutated AC machine.

True, to a degree.  But the specific DC motor in the Monarch was
designed for a wide constant power range, and I'm sure the AC motor
used in late model 10EE's was also designed specifically for the 
application.  You aren't going to get that performance with a vanilla
AC motor (or a vanilla DC motor, for that matter).



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[Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-29 Thread Cecil Thomas

Thanks for all the inputs.  I did quite a bit of research concerning 
the effectiveness vs the amount of work vs the expense of getting the 
machine on line and making chips.
1. Tossing the entire drive train and replacing with a 10 hp 3ph 
motor and vfd to run from 220 single phase.. can't be done... no 
10 hp single phase vfd available at any price.

2. same as above but use 7.5 hp vfd with back gear  same problem 
as above plus the backgear is PART OF the DC motor and requires 
considerable machining and adapting to take the end bell from the old 
motor and incorporate it into the new drive train.

3. Note that 1 and 2 are what Monarch does now for their new and 
rebuilt 10ee's they are NOT for single phase 220 use.

4. Drive the existing system from a single phase in 5 hp vfd.. I 
could not find a 5 hp single phase in vfd and even in the lower hp 
ranges I was looking at $400 and up for which I would be buying all 
kinds of bells and whistles which would be the proverbial mammary 
glands on a male swine since the 3 ph motor must run at 60 hz for the 
rest of the system to work correctly.   Also I would be required to 
bypass any and all means of control from the lathe itself so as not 
to disconnect the vfd load downstream.

5. Replace the 3 ph motor with a 5 hp single phase motor.. 
Probably the neatest solution but the motor and generator are a 
single unit so the single phase motor would have to actually spin 
both the motor and generator IF... there was room enough to mount the 
extra motor and there's not.  I even considered having the 3ph motor 
rewound as single phase but a couple of local motor shops said they 
were not even interested.

6. Toss the MG and install a DC control for the motor. Most 
integral hp DC controllers are rated 180 volts wide open he 10ee 
generator produces from 0 to 300 volts to the motor armature.  It 
would be impossible to recreate that armature voltage from an off the 
shelf controller and problematic to get there with a home built 
one.  The speeds above 1500 rpm are achieved by reducing field 
voltage (120 V DC on the field up to 1500 rpm) so that would not be a 
problem.  300 VDC from 220 VAC is a challenge.


7. Make the existing 3ph motor single phase by installing a static 
phase converter and giving up about 1/3 of the hp..  cheapest solution.

8. Buy a pretty prebuilt Rotary Phase Converter panel for $160 and 
add a locally purchased used 7.5 hp idler for $0 and with a couple of 
hours of running conduit and hanging the panel I'm in business.


Cecil 
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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE

2013-04-29 Thread Stephen Dubovsky

FWIW, Solution to #1 is typ easy.  Large VFDs typ bring out the DC bus for
more filtering caps if needed.  Add additional external caps (need appox
double whats internal) and add a large external rectifier to the caps.
Basically, feed the VFD dc.  You'll need to disable phase loss detection
just like running any other 3ph vfd on 1ph.

SMD


On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Cecil Thomas wctho...@chartertn.netwrote:

 Thanks for all the inputs.  I did quite a bit of research concerning
 the effectiveness vs the amount of work vs the expense of getting the
 machine on line and making chips.
 1. Tossing the entire drive train and replacing with a 10 hp 3ph
 motor and vfd to run from 220 single phase.. can't be done... no
 10 hp single phase vfd available at any price.

 2. same as above but use 7.5 hp vfd with back gear  same problem
 as above plus the backgear is PART OF the DC motor and requires
 considerable machining and adapting to take the end bell from the old
 motor and incorporate it into the new drive train.

 3. Note that 1 and 2 are what Monarch does now for their new and
 rebuilt 10ee's they are NOT for single phase 220 use.

 4. Drive the existing system from a single phase in 5 hp vfd.. I
 could not find a 5 hp single phase in vfd and even in the lower hp
 ranges I was looking at $400 and up for which I would be buying all
 kinds of bells and whistles which would be the proverbial mammary
 glands on a male swine since the 3 ph motor must run at 60 hz for the
 rest of the system to work correctly.   Also I would be required to
 bypass any and all means of control from the lathe itself so as not
 to disconnect the vfd load downstream.

 5. Replace the 3 ph motor with a 5 hp single phase motor..
 Probably the neatest solution but the motor and generator are a
 single unit so the single phase motor would have to actually spin
 both the motor and generator IF... there was room enough to mount the
 extra motor and there's not.  I even considered having the 3ph motor
 rewound as single phase but a couple of local motor shops said they
 were not even interested.

 6. Toss the MG and install a DC control for the motor. Most
 integral hp DC controllers are rated 180 volts wide open he 10ee
 generator produces from 0 to 300 volts to the motor armature.  It
 would be impossible to recreate that armature voltage from an off the
 shelf controller and problematic to get there with a home built
 one.  The speeds above 1500 rpm are achieved by reducing field
 voltage (120 V DC on the field up to 1500 rpm) so that would not be a
 problem.  300 VDC from 220 VAC is a challenge.


 7. Make the existing 3ph motor single phase by installing a static
 phase converter and giving up about 1/3 of the hp..  cheapest solution.

 8. Buy a pretty prebuilt Rotary Phase Converter panel for $160 and
 add a locally purchased used 7.5 hp idler for $0 and with a couple of
 hours of running conduit and hanging the panel I'm in business.


 Cecil

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Re: [Emc-users] converting Monarch 10EE