[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Tristan von Neumann]

You are missing the point.

You are talking to the few hundred people on Earth who play old lute
pieces...


Imagine Average Joe of today with a score of a Beatles song.

Yeah.




On 05.06.20 18:23, G. C. wrote:

  So people on this list, are playing Renaissance and Baroque music
  because they have the records? H

G.

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[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Ralf Mattes]

mpilation of 
> > the Ms
> > >is a
> > >>decent guess. But others are certainly possible - for example 
> > I
> > >know
> > >>nothing of the dating of the paper, watermarks etc.
> > >>regards
> > >>Martyn
> > >>PS Incidentally, are other people receiving multiple copies of
> > >these
> > >>email messages?
> > >That's a consequent of how this list is set up. Reply-to-all will 
> > send
> > >copies
> > >to the list as well as the original poster(s).
> > >Cheers, RalfD
> > >>On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:57:47 BST, Monica Hall
> > >><[2] mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
> > mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote:
> > >>For the record Bartolotti's Libro primo de chitarra Spagnola 
> > is
> > >dated
> > >>1640. He must have at least been in his twenties when it was
> > >printed -
> > >>so born 1620 or earlier.
> > >>He died before January 1682. In the record books of the SecrÃ
> > >©tariat de
> > >>la Maison du Roi (Louis XIV) there is an entry in January, 
> > 1682
> > >>recording that the possessions of a certain Italian  
> > "Miquelange"
> > >were
> > >>assigned to one "Launay, Garde de la Compagnie de Luxemburg, y
> > >servant
> > >>depuis neuf ans".
> > >>Assuming that this was Bartolotti, he must have died some time
> > >>previously. Under the French law known as the droit d'aubaine 
> > the
> > >>possessions of foreigners who died in France became the 
> > property
> > >of the
> > >>King to dispose of as he saw fit.  There are no references to
> > >>Bartolotti  after that date.
> > >>Having said that his music and that of Losy and Gintler could 
> > have
> > >been
> > >>copied any time in the late 17th century or early 18th 
> > century. It
> > >does
> > >>not have to have been copied during their life times.
> > >>It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name Angelo
> > >Michel in
> > >>all its different permutations refers to Bartolotti but it 
> > was a
> > >very
> > >>common name so open to question...
> > >>We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other pieces in 
> > the
> > >>manuscript are by our man. I assume that none of them are
> > >concordant
> > >>with those in the Goess ms.
> > >>Cheers
> > >>MOnica
> > >>> On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson
> > >><[1][3] hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
> > mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>Dear Roland,
> > >>>Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but 
> > c.1630
> > >-
> > >>1682
> > >>>may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for 
> > lute
> > >by
> >     >>Losy
> > >>>(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this 
> > Ms
> > >>suggests a
> > >>>date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
> > >>>The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument 
> > for
> > >>continuo in
> > >>>this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few
> > >pieces
> > >>for
> > >>>solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, 
> > as
> > >well
> > >>as
> > >>>famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in
> > >collections
> > >>from
> > >>>time to time.
> > >>>Petyer Steur s

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Martyn Hodgson]

 >That's a classic case of circular reasoning.
   >>-> The music wasn't fashionable because it isn't contained in
   MS. from
   >>that time.
   >>-> That Ms. can't be from that time because it contains
   unfashionable
   >>music .
   >>>So it seems reasonable to me
   >>>that a terminal date around 1680/90 for the compilation
   of the Ms
   >>is a
   >>>decent guess. But others are certainly possible - for
   example I
   >>know
   >>>nothing of the dating of the paper, watermarks etc.
   >>>regards
   >>>Martyn
   >>>PS Incidentally, are other people receiving multiple
   copies of
   >>these
   >>>email messages?
   >>That's a consequent of how this list is set up. Reply-to-all
   will send
   >>copies
   >>to the list as well as the original poster(s).
   >>Cheers, RalfD
   >>>On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:57:47 BST, Monica Hall
   >>><[2] [9]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   mailto:[10]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote:
   >>>For the record Bartolotti's Libro primo de chitarra
   Spagnola is
   >>dated
   >>>1640. He must have at least been in his twenties when it
   was
   >>printed -
   >>>so born 1620 or earlier.
   >>>He died before January 1682. In the record books of the
   SecrÃ
   >>©tariat de
   >>>la Maison du Roi (Louis XIV) there is an entry in
   January, 1682
   >>>recording that the possessions of a certain Italian
   "Miquelange"
   >>were
   >>>assigned to one "Launay, Garde de la Compagnie de
   Luxemburg, y
   >>servant
   >>>depuis neuf ans".
   >>>Assuming that this was Bartolotti, he must have died
   some time
   >>>previously. Under the French law known as the droit
   d'aubaine the
   >>>possessions of foreigners who died in France became the
   property
   >>of the
   >>>King to dispose of as he saw fit.  There are no
   references to
   >>>Bartolotti  after that date.
   >>>Having said that his music and that of Losy and Gintler
   could have
   >>been
   >>>copied any time in the late 17th century or early 18th
   century. It
   >>does
   >>>not have to have been copied during their life times.
   >>>It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name
   Angelo
   >>Michel in
   >>>all its different permutations refers to Bartolotti but
   it was a
   >>very
   >>>common name so open to question...
   >>>We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other
   pieces in the
   >>>manuscript are by our man. I assume that none of them
   are
   >>concordant
   >>>with those in the Goess ms.
   >>>Cheers
   >>>MOnica
   >>>> On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson
   >>><[1][3] [11]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   mailto:[12]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote:
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>Dear Roland,
   >>>>Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present
   but c.1630
   >>-
   >>>1682
   >>>>may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of
   works for lute
   >>by
   >>>Losy
   >>>>(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of
   this Ms
   >>>suggests a
   >>>>date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
   >>>>The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed
   instrument for
   >>>continuo in
   >>>>this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that
   a few
   >>pieces
   >>>for
   >>>>solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba
   players, as
   >>well
   >>>as
   >>>>famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up
   in
   >>collections
   >>>from
 

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[G. C.]

 So people on this list, are playing Renaissance and Baroque music
 because they have the records? H

   G.

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[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Tristan von Neumann]

If we didn't have recordings, people would have to play them on
instruments...

I think many of those songs would have disappeared already...



On 05.06.20 18:03, G. C. wrote:

  What are 80 years? We are still enjoying playing and listening to
  Beatles and Stones music, near 60 years old. And even older Jazz
  music. Why would people in the 17th century have been any different?

G.


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[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[G. C.]

 What are 80 years? We are still enjoying playing and listening to
 Beatles and Stones music, near 60 years old. And even older Jazz
 music. Why would people in the 17th century have been any different?

   G.


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[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Monica Hall]

gt;>email messages?
> >That's a consequent of how this list is set up. Reply-to-all will 
> send
> >copies
> >to the list as well as the original poster(s).
> >Cheers, RalfD
> >>On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:57:47 BST, Monica Hall
> >><[2] mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
> mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote:
> >>For the record Bartolotti's Libro primo de chitarra Spagnola is
> >dated
> >>1640. He must have at least been in his twenties when it was
> >printed -
> >>so born 1620 or earlier.
> >>He died before January 1682. In the record books of the SecrÃ
> >©tariat de
> >>la Maison du Roi (Louis XIV) there is an entry in January, 1682
> >>recording that the possessions of a certain Italian  
> "Miquelange"
> >were
> >>assigned to one "Launay, Garde de la Compagnie de Luxemburg, y
> >servant
> >>depuis neuf ans".
> >>Assuming that this was Bartolotti, he must have died some time
> >>previously. Under the French law known as the droit d'aubaine 
> the
> >>possessions of foreigners who died in France became the property
> >of the
> >>King to dispose of as he saw fit.  There are no references to
> >>Bartolotti  after that date.
> >>Having said that his music and that of Losy and Gintler could 
> have
> >been
> >>copied any time in the late 17th century or early 18th century. 
> It
> >does
> >>not have to have been copied during their life times.
> >>It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name Angelo
> >Michel in
> >>all its different permutations refers to Bartolotti but it was a
> >very
> >>common name so open to question...
> >>We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other pieces in 
> the
> >>manuscript are by our man. I assume that none of them are
> >concordant
> >>with those in the Goess ms.
> >>Cheers
> >>MOnica
> >>> On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson
> >><[1][3] hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
> mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Dear Roland,
> >>>Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but 
> c.1630
> >-
> >>1682
> >>>may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for 
> lute
> >by
> >>Losy
> >>>(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms
> >>suggests a
> >>>date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
> >>>The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for
> >>continuo in
> >>>this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few
> >pieces
> >>for
> >>>solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as
> >well
> >>as
> >>>famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in
> >collections
> >>from
> >>>time to time.
> >>>Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de
> >Angelin de
> >>>Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply 
> speculation
> >>around
> >>>similar word association.
> >>>regards,
> >>>Martyn
> >>>
> >>>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
> >>><[2][4] rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org 
> mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org > wrote:
> >>>  While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they
> >surely
> >>play
> >>>and
> >>>  sound like Bartolotti.
> >>>  Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we
> >k

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 05. Juni 2020 12:27 CEST, Monica Hall 
 schrieb: 
 
> To be honest I don't think it is the usual classic scholarly course to 
> attempt to date a source by its contents and style. Someone on an earlier 
> occasion on the list commented 

That's what I just wanted to reply as well.

> "As a musicologist student, I learned that style criticism should be 
> avoided because it cannot be valid evidence”.

Same here - because it leads to the circular reinforcement I mentioned in my 
first post. 

> Music continued to be popular and played after it was first composed. Some of 
> Corbetta's music is found in sources copied 50 years after his death.
> 
> The only way to date a manuscript with any sort of accuracy is from its 
> bibliographical makeup and even that is not straight forward.

Indeed!

 Cheers, RalfD

-- 
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de
 





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[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Martyn Hodgson]

y and Gintler could
   have
   >been
   >>copied any time in the late 17th century or early 18th
   century. It
   >does
   >>not have to have been copied during their life times.
   >>It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name Angelo
   >Michel in
   >>all its different permutations refers to Bartolotti but it
   was a
   >very
   >>common name so open to question...
   >>We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other pieces in
   the
   >>manuscript are by our man. I assume that none of them are
   >concordant
   >>with those in the Goess ms.
   >>Cheers
   >>MOnica
   >>> On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson
   >><[1][3][5]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>Dear Roland,
   >>>Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but
   c.1630
   >-
   >>1682
   >>>may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for
   lute
   >by
   >>Losy
   >>>(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this
   Ms
   >>suggests a
   >>>date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
   >>>The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument
   for
   >>continuo in
   >>>this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a
   few
   >pieces
   >>for
   >>>solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players,
   as
   >well
   >>as
   >>>famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in
   >collections
   >>from
   >>>time to time.
   >>>Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de
   >Angelin de
   >>>Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply
   speculation
   >>around
   >>>similar word association.
   >>>regards,
   >>>Martyn
   >>>
   >>>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
   >>><[2][4][6]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote:
   >>>  While the unascribed pieces could by someone else,
   they
   >surely
   >>play
   >>>and
   >>>  sound like Bartolotti.
   >>>  Is there any other theorbo player from that time that
   we
   >know
   >>of, who
   >>>  could match the style and technique of these pieces?
   >>>  r
   >>>  Get [1]Outlook for Android
   >>>
   >>
   __
   >>>  From:
   [1][3][5][7]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   >>>  <[2][4][6][8]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
   on behalf
   >of
   >>Monica Hall
   >>>  <[3][5][7][9]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >>>  Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM
   >>>  To: [4][6][8][10]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
   ><[5][7][9][11]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>;
   >>LuteList
   >>>  <[6][8][10][12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >>>  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
   >>>  Thanks for this.
   >>>  I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any
   reasons
   >for
   >>>  thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti.
   >>>  Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library
   to
   >check
   >>any
   >>>  other sources but if I do eventually find some
   evidence I
   >will
   >>let
   >>>you
   >>>  know.
   >>>  Cheers
   >>>  Monica
   >>>  > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03
   [7][9][11][13]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
   >wrote:
   >>>  >
   >>>  >
   >>>  > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the
   >literature?
   >>There
   >>>is:
   >>>  >
   >>>  > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless,
   but
   >he
   >>gives a
   >>>  bunch
   >>  

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Monica Hall]

1682
>>>may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute
>by
>>Losy
>>>(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms
>>suggests a
>>>date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
>>>The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for
>>continuo in
>>>this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few
>pieces
>>for
>>>solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as
>well
>>as
>>>famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in
>collections
>>from
>>>time to time.
>>>Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de
>Angelin de
>>>Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation
>>around
>>>similar word association.
>>>regards,
>>>Martyn
>>>
>>>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
>>><[2][4]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote:
>>>  While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they
>surely
>>play
>>>and
>>>  sound like Bartolotti.
>>>  Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we
>know
>>of, who
>>>  could match the style and technique of these pieces?
>>>  r
>>>  Get [1]Outlook for Android
>>>
>>__
>>>  From: [1][3][5]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>  <[2][4][6]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
>of
>>Monica Hall
>>>  <[3][5][7]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>  Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM
>>>  To: [4][6][8]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
><[5][7][9]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>;
>>LuteList
>>>  <[6][8][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
>>>  Thanks for this.
>>>  I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons
>for
>>>  thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti.
>>>  Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to
>check
>>any
>>>  other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I
>will
>>let
>>>you
>>>  know.
>>>  Cheers
>>>  Monica
>>>  > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][9][11]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>wrote:
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>>  > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the
>literature?
>>There
>>>is:
>>>  >
>>>  > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but
>he
>>gives a
>>>  bunch
>>>  > of literature which I don't know)
>>>  > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S.
>>121-125 (he
>>>  > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces,
>but
>>I
>>>  > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a
>piece
>>by
>>>  > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as
>>Bartolotti as
>>>  > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.)
>>>  > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: Ã ¢A. M.
>>Bartolotti,
>>>  Pià ¨ces
>>>  > pour thà ©orbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth
>to
>>check!
>>>  >
>>>  > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what
>you're
>>going
>>>  to
>>>  > find on this subject :-)
>>>  > Yuval
>>>  >
>>>  > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall:
>>>  > > Thanks Martyn
>>>  > > That's very helpful.

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Ralf,
   No - I'm not suggesting your 'circular reasoning', in particular I
   can't see I suggested that, as you put it,  'The music wasn't
   fashionable because it isn't contained in MS. from that time'.
   Rather I'm adopting the usual classic scholarly course of attempting to
   date a source by its contents and style. I may, of course, be
   wrong!...
   Martyn

   On Friday, 5 June 2020, 09:56:53 BST, Ralf Mattes 
   wrote:
   Am Freitag, 05. Juni 2020 10:34 CEST, Martyn Hodgson
   <[1]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> schrieb:
   >Dear Monica,
   >Indeed - the Ms may have been copied later than the 1680/90s I
   >suggest.  But bear in mind that most of the lute works are from
   the
   >earlier generation such as Pinel (d. 1661) Strobel (d.1669),
   Hotman
   >(also a tiorba player d.1663),  Dufault (d. 1672), Gautier
   d'Angleterre
   >(d. 1652) et al, who were no longer particularly fashionable by
   the
   >late seventeenth/early eighteenth century.
   That's a classic case of circular reasoning.
   -> The music wasn't fashionable because it isn't contained in MS. from
   that time.
   -> That Ms. can't be from that time because it contains unfashionable
   music .
   >So it seems reasonable to me
   >that a terminal date around 1680/90 for the compilation of the Ms
   is a
   >decent guess. But others are certainly possible - for example I
   know
   >nothing of the dating of the paper, watermarks etc.
   >regards
   >Martyn
   >PS Incidentally, are other people receiving multiple copies of
   these
   >email messages?
   That's a consequent of how this list is set up. Reply-to-all will send
   copies
   to the list as well as the original poster(s).
   Cheers, RalfD
   >On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:57:47 BST, Monica Hall
   ><[2]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
   >For the record Bartolotti's Libro primo de chitarra Spagnola is
   dated
   >1640. He must have at least been in his twenties when it was
   printed -
   >so born 1620 or earlier.
   >He died before January 1682. In the record books of the SecrÃ
   ©tariat de
   >la Maison du Roi (Louis XIV) there is an entry in January, 1682
   >recording that the possessions of a certain Italian  "Miquelange"
   were
   >assigned to one "Launay, Garde de la Compagnie de Luxemburg, y
   servant
   >depuis neuf ans".
   >Assuming that this was Bartolotti, he must have died some time
   >previously. Under the French law known as the droit d'aubaine the
   >possessions of foreigners who died in France became the property
   of the
   >King to dispose of as he saw fit.  There are no references to
   >Bartolotti  after that date.
   >Having said that his music and that of Losy and Gintler could have
   been
   >copied any time in the late 17th century or early 18th century. It
   does
   >not have to have been copied during their life times.
   >It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name Angelo
   Michel in
   >all its different permutations refers to Bartolotti but it was a
   very
   >common name so open to question...
   >We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other pieces in the
   >manuscript are by our man. I assume that none of them are
   concordant
   >with those in the Goess ms.
   >Cheers
   >MOnica
   >> On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson
   ><[1][3]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
   >>
   >>
   >>Dear Roland,
   >>Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630
   -
   >1682
   >>may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute
   by
   >Losy
   >>(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms
   >suggests a
   >>date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
   >>The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for
   >continuo in
   >>this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few
   pieces
   >for
   >>solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as
   well
   >as
   >>famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in
   collections
   >from
   >>time to time.
   >>Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de
   Angelin de
   >>Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation
   >around
   >>similar word association.
   >>regards,
   >>Martyn
   >>
   >>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
   >><

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 05. Juni 2020 10:34 CEST, Martyn Hodgson 
 schrieb: 
 
>Dear Monica,
>Indeed - the Ms may have been copied later than the 1680/90s I
>suggest.  But bear in mind that most of the lute works are from the
>earlier generation such as Pinel (d. 1661) Strobel (d.1669), Hotman
>(also a tiorba player d.1663),  Dufault (d. 1672), Gautier d'Angleterre
>(d. 1652) et al, who were no longer particularly fashionable by the
>late seventeenth/early eighteenth century. 

That's a classic case of circular reasoning. 
-> The music wasn't fashionable because it isn't contained in MS. from that 
time.
-> That Ms. can't be from that time because it contains unfashionable music 
.

>So it seems reasonable to me
>that a terminal date around 1680/90 for the compilation of the Ms is a
>decent guess. But others are certainly possible - for example I know
>nothing of the dating of the paper, watermarks etc.
>regards
>Martyn
>PS Incidentally, are other people receiving multiple copies of these
>email messages?

That's a consequent of how this list is set up. Reply-to-all will send copies
to the list as well as the original poster(s).

 Cheers, RalfD
 
>On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:57:47 BST, Monica Hall
> wrote:
>For the record Bartolotti's Libro primo de chitarra Spagnola is dated
>1640. He must have at least been in his twenties when it was printed -
>so born 1620 or earlier.
>He died before January 1682. In the record books of the Secrétariat de
>la Maison du Roi (Louis XIV) there is an entry in January, 1682
>recording that the possessions of a certain Italian  "Miquelange" were
>assigned to one "Launay, Garde de la Compagnie de Luxemburg, y servant
>depuis neuf ans".
>Assuming that this was Bartolotti, he must have died some time
>previously. Under the French law known as the droit d'aubaine the
>possessions of foreigners who died in France became the property of the
>King to dispose of as he saw fit.  There are no references to
>Bartolotti  after that date.
>Having said that his music and that of Losy and Gintler could have been
>copied any time in the late 17th century or early 18th century. It does
>not have to have been copied during their life times.
>It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name Angelo Michel in
>all its different permutations refers to Bartolotti but it was a very
>common name so open to question...
>We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other pieces in the
>manuscript are by our man. I assume that none of them are concordant
>with those in the Goess ms.
>Cheers
>MOnica
>> On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson
><[1]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Dear Roland,
>>Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 -
>1682
>>may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by
>Losy
>>(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms
>suggests a
>>date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
>>The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for
>continuo in
>>this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces
>for
>>solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well
>as
>>famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections
>from
>>time to time.
>>Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de
>>Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation
>around
>>similar word association.
>>regards,
>>Martyn
>>
>>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
>><[2]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote:
>>  While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely
>play
>>and
>>  sound like Bartolotti.
>>  Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know
>of, who
>>  could match the style and technique of these pieces?
>>  r
>>  Get [1]Outlook for Android
>>
>__
>>  From: [1][3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>    >  <[2][4]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of
>Monica Hall
>>  <[3][5]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>  Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM
>>  To: [4][6]yuval.dvo...@

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 05. Juni 2020 10:16 CEST, Martyn Hodgson 
 schrieb: 
 

[...]
>Note the tiorba works are copied from the last leaf of the book going
>forwards

No - the book was started with the theorbo pieces and then someone continued 
with the baroque pieces
from the end of the book ... 
(I'm actually only partially joking, the binding is, from all I can tell, 
pretty symetric)

 Cheers, RalfD

>
>On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:58:49 BST, Monica Hall
> wrote:
>I was wondering about that as I don't actually have a copy of this
>particular ms. only the Goess ms.
>Monica
>> On 05 June 2020 at 08:45 "[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com"
><[3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>It would be very interesting to see what this music looks like.
>Are there any images online?
>>
>>Sent from my Huawei phone
>>
>>
>> Original message 
>>From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020, 08:21
>>To: [5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de, LuteList
><[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Monica Hall <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>,
>Roland Hayes <[8]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>>Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
>>
>>?space?--  Dear Roland,
>  Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - 1682
>  may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by Losy
>  (b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms suggests a
>  date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
>  The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for continuo
>in
>  this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces for
>  solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well as
>  famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections
>from
>  time to time.
>  Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de
>  Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation around
>  similar word association.
>  regards,
>  Martyn
>  On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
>  <[9]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote:
>While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play
>  and
>sound like Bartolotti.
>Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of,
>who
>could match the style and technique of these pieces?
>r
>Get [1]Outlook for Android
> 
>__
>From: [1][10]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
><[2][11]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Monica
>Hall
><[3][12]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM
>To: [4][13]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5][14]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>;
>LuteList
><[6][15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
>Thanks for this.
>I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for
>thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti.
>Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any
>other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let
>  you
>know.
>Cheers
>Monica
>> On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][16]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
>>
>>
>> Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There
>  is:
>>
>> Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives
>a
>bunch
>> of literature which I don't know)
>> Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125
>(he
>> doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I
>> apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by
>> "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti
>as
>> well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.)
>> And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: âA. M.
>Bartolotti,
>Pià ¨ces
>> pour thà ©orbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check!
>>
>> Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're
>going
>to
>> find on this subject :-)
>> Yuval
>>
>> Am 0

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,
   Indeed - the Ms may have been copied later than the 1680/90s I
   suggest.  But bear in mind that most of the lute works are from the
   earlier generation such as Pinel (d. 1661) Strobel (d.1669), Hotman
   (also a tiorba player d.1663),  Dufault (d. 1672), Gautier d'Angleterre
   (d. 1652) et al, who were no longer particularly fashionable by the
   late seventeenth/early eighteenth century. So it seems reasonable to me
   that a terminal date around 1680/90 for the compilation of the Ms is a
   decent guess. But others are certainly possible - for example I know
   nothing of the dating of the paper, watermarks etc.
   regards
   Martyn
   PS Incidentally, are other people receiving multiple copies of these
   email messages?

   On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:57:47 BST, Monica Hall
wrote:
   For the record Bartolotti's Libro primo de chitarra Spagnola is dated
   1640. He must have at least been in his twenties when it was printed -
   so born 1620 or earlier.
   He died before January 1682. In the record books of the Secrétariat de
   la Maison du Roi (Louis XIV) there is an entry in January, 1682
   recording that the possessions of a certain Italian  "Miquelange" were
   assigned to one "Launay, Garde de la Compagnie de Luxemburg, y servant
   depuis neuf ans".
   Assuming that this was Bartolotti, he must have died some time
   previously. Under the French law known as the droit d'aubaine the
   possessions of foreigners who died in France became the property of the
   King to dispose of as he saw fit.  There are no references to
   Bartolotti  after that date.
   Having said that his music and that of Losy and Gintler could have been
   copied any time in the late 17th century or early 18th century. It does
   not have to have been copied during their life times.
   It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name Angelo Michel in
   all its different permutations refers to Bartolotti but it was a very
   common name so open to question...
   We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other pieces in the
   manuscript are by our man. I assume that none of them are concordant
   with those in the Goess ms.
   Cheers
   MOnica
   > On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson
   <[1]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
   >
   >
   >Dear Roland,
   >Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 -
   1682
   >may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by
   Losy
   >(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms
   suggests a
   >date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
   >The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for
   continuo in
   >this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces
   for
   >solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well
   as
   >famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections
   from
   >time to time.
   >Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de
   >Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation
   around
   >similar word association.
   >regards,
   >Martyn
   >
   >On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
   ><[2]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote:
   >  While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely
   play
   >and
   >  sound like Bartolotti.
   >  Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know
   of, who
   >  could match the style and technique of these pieces?
   >  r
   >  Get [1]Outlook for Android
   >
   __
   >  From: [1][3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   >  <[2][4]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of
   Monica Hall
   >  <[3][5]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >  Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM
   >  To: [4][6]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5][7]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>;
   LuteList
   >  <[6][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
   >  Thanks for this.
   >  I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for
   >  thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti.
   >  Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check
   any
   >  other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will
   let
   >you
   >  know.
   >  Cheers
   >  Monica
   >  > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][9]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
   >  >
   >  >
   >  > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature?
   There
   >is:
   >  >
   >  > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather use

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Monica Hall]

Many thanks!!
Monica

> On 05 June 2020 at 09:16 Martyn Hodgson  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>see here
>[1]A-Wn MusHs 17706
> 
> [scribd.png]
> 
>   A-Wn MusHs 17706
> 
>Note the tiorba works are copied from the last leaf of the book going
>forwards
>M
> 
>On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:58:49 BST, Monica Hall
> wrote:
>I was wondering about that as I don't actually have a copy of this
>particular ms. only the Goess ms.
>Monica
>> On 05 June 2020 at 08:45 "[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com"
><[3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>It would be very interesting to see what this music looks like.
>Are there any images online?
>>
>>Sent from my Huawei phone
>>
>>
>> Original message 
>>From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020, 08:21
>>To: [5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de, LuteList
><[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Monica Hall <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>,
>Roland Hayes <[8]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>>Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
>>
>>?space?--  Dear Roland,
>  Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - 1682
>  may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by Losy
>  (b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms suggests a
>  date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
>  The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for continuo
>in
>  this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces for
>  solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well as
>  famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections
>from
>  time to time.
>  Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de
>  Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation around
>  similar word association.
>  regards,
>  Martyn
>  On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
>  <[9]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote:
>While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play
>  and
>sound like Bartolotti.
>Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of,
>who
>could match the style and technique of these pieces?
>r
>Get [1]Outlook for Android
> 
>__
>From: [1][10]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
><[2][11]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Monica
>Hall
><[3][12]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM
>To: [4][13]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5][14]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>;
>LuteList
><[6][15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
>Thanks for this.
>I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for
>thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti.
>Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any
>other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let
>  you
>know.
>Cheers
>Monica
>> On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][16]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
>>
>>
>> Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There
>  is:
>>
>> Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives
>a
>bunch
>> of literature which I don't know)
>> Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125
>(he
>> doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I
>> apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by
>> "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti
>as
>> well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.)
>> And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: âA. M.
>Bartolotti,
>Pià ¨ces
>> pour thà ©orbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check!
>>
>> Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're
>going
>to
>> find on this subject :-)
>> Yuval
>>
>> Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall:
>&g

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Petrus Paulus Maria Steur]

   Just follow the link given in the database
   ([1]https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=A-Wn17706=A
   =deu=all)
   Peter

   Mail priva di virus. [2]www.avg.com

   Il giorno ven 5 giu 2020 alle ore 10:20 Martyn Hodgson
   <[3]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> ha scritto:

see here
[1]A-Wn MusHs 17706
 [scribd.png]
   A-Wn MusHs 17706
Note the tiorba works are copied from the last leaf of the book
 going
forwards
M
On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:58:49 BST, Monica Hall
<[4]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
I was wondering about that as I don't actually have a copy of
 this
particular ms. only the Goess ms.
Monica
> On 05 June 2020 at 08:45 "[2][5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com"
<[3][6]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> It would be very interesting to see what this music looks
 like.
Are there any images online?
>
> Sent from my Huawei phone
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Martyn Hodgson
 <[4][7]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020, 08:21
> To: [5][8]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de, LuteList
<[6][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Monica Hall
 <[7][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>,
Roland Hayes <[8][11]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
>
> ?space?--   Dear Roland,
  Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 -
 1682
  may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute
 by Losy
  (b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms
 suggests a
  date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
  The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for
 continuo
in
  this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few
 pieces for
  solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as
 well as
  famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in
 collections
from
  time to time.
  Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin
 de
  Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation
 around
  similar word association.
  regards,
  Martyn
  On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
  <[9][12]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote:
While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they
 surely play
  and
sound like Bartolotti.
Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know
 of,
who
could match the style and technique of these pieces?
r
Get [1]Outlook for Android

 __
From: [1][10][13]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[2][11][14]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
 of Monica
Hall
<[3][12][15]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM
To: [4][13][16]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
 <[5][14][17]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>;
    LuteList
<[6][15][18]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
Thanks for this.
I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons
 for
thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti.
Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to
 check any
other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I
 will let
  you
know.
Cheers
Monica
> On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][16][19]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
 wrote:
>
>
> Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature?
 There
  is:
>
> Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he
 gives
a
bunch
> of literature which I don't know)
    > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S.
 121-125
(he
> doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces,
 but I
> apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a
 piece by
> "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as
 Bartolotti
as
> well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.)
> And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: Ã ¢A. M.

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Martyn Hodgson]

   see here
   [1]A-Wn MusHs 17706

[scribd.png]

  A-Wn MusHs 17706

   Note the tiorba works are copied from the last leaf of the book going
   forwards
   M

   On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:58:49 BST, Monica Hall
wrote:
   I was wondering about that as I don't actually have a copy of this
   particular ms. only the Goess ms.
   Monica
   > On 05 June 2020 at 08:45 "[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com"
   <[3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
   >
   >It would be very interesting to see what this music looks like.
   Are there any images online?
   >
   >Sent from my Huawei phone
   >
   >
   > Original message 
   >From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020, 08:21
   >To: [5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de, LuteList
   <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Monica Hall <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>,
   Roland Hayes <[8]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
   >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
   >
   >?space?--  Dear Roland,
 Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - 1682
 may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by Losy
 (b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms suggests a
 date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
 The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for continuo
   in
 this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces for
 solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well as
 famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections
   from
 time to time.
 Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de
 Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation around
 similar word association.
 regards,
 Martyn
 On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
 <[9]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote:
   While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play
 and
   sound like Bartolotti.
   Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of,
   who
   could match the style and technique of these pieces?
   r
   Get [1]Outlook for Android

   __
   From: [1][10]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   <[2][11]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Monica
   Hall
   <[3][12]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM
   To: [4][13]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5][14]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>;
   LuteList
   <[6][15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
   Thanks for this.
   I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for
   thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti.
   Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any
   other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let
 you
   know.
   Cheers
   Monica
   > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][16]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
   >
   >
   > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There
 is:
   >
   > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives
   a
   bunch
   > of literature which I don't know)
   > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125
   (he
   > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I
   > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by
   > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti
   as
   > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.)
   > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: âA. M.
   Bartolotti,
   Pià ¨ces
   > pour thà ©orbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check!
   >
   > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're
   going
   to
   > find on this subject :-)
   > Yuval
   >
   > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall:
   > > Thanks Martyn
   > > That's very helpful.
   > > Regards
   > > Monica
   > >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson
   > >> <[8][17]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>Dear Monica,
   > >>No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing
 the
   > >> other
   > >>tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of
   course,
   being
   > >>adjacent in the same Ms. Inci

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Monica Hall]

I was wondering about that as I don't actually have a copy of this particular 
ms. only the Goess ms.

Monica

> On 05 June 2020 at 08:45 "s.wa...@ntlworld.com"  wrote:
> 
> It would be very interesting to see what this music looks like. Are there 
> any images online? 
> 
> Sent from my Huawei phone
> 
> 
>  Original message 
> From: Martyn Hodgson 
> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020, 08:21
> To: yuval.dvo...@posteo.de, LuteList , Monica Hall 
> , Roland Hayes 
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
> 
> ?space?--  Dear Roland,
   Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - 1682
   may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by Losy
   (b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms suggests a
   date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
   The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for continuo in
   this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces for
   solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well as
   famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections from
   time to time.
   Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de
   Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation around
   similar word association.
   regards,
   Martyn

   On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
wrote:
 While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play
   and
 sound like Bartolotti.
 Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of, who
 could match the style and technique of these pieces?
 r
 Get [1]Outlook for Android
   __
 From: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
 <[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Monica Hall
 <[3]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM
 To: [4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; LuteList
     <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
 Thanks for this.
 I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for
 thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti.
 Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any
 other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let
   you
 know.
 Cheers
 Monica
 > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
 >
 >
 > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There
   is:
 >
 > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives a
 bunch
 > of literature which I don't know)
 > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 (he
 > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I
 > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by
 > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti as
 > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.)
 > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: âA. M. Bartolotti,
 Pièces
 > pour théorbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check!
 >
 > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're going
 to
 > find on this subject :-)
 > Yuval
 >
 > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall:
 > > Thanks Martyn
 > > That's very helpful.
 > > Regards
 > > Monica
 > >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson
 > >> <[8]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
 > >>
 > >>
 > >>Dear Monica,
 > >>No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing
   the
 > >> other
 > >>tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course,
 being
 > >>adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the
 > >> Allemande
 > >>(Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r.
 > >>The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v
 (reversed
 > >>folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as
 does
 > >> the
 > >>concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to
 accept
 > >>these as part of a suite by the same composer AM.  The fact
 that
 > >> the
 > >>earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have
   the
 > >>    attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but
 > >>regards,
 > >>Martyn
 > &g

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Monica Hall]

For the record Bartolotti's Libro primo de chitarra Spagnola is dated 1640. He 
must have at least been in his twenties when it was printed - so born 1620 or 
earlier.

He died before January 1682. In the record books of the Secrétariat de la 
Maison du Roi (Louis XIV) there is an entry in January, 1682  recording that 
the possessions of a certain Italian  “Miquelange” were assigned to one 
“Launay, Garde de la Compagnie de Luxemburg, y servant depuis neuf ans”.  

Assuming that this was Bartolotti, he must have died some time previously. 
Under the French law known as the droit d’aubaine the possessions of foreigners 
who died in France became the property of the King to dispose of as he saw fit. 
  There are no references to Bartolotti  after that date.

Having said that his music and that of Losy and Gintler could have been copied 
any time in the late 17th century or early 18th century. It does not have to 
have been copied during their life times.

It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name Angelo Michel in all its 
different permutations refers to Bartolotti but it was a very common name so 
open to question...

We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other pieces in the manuscript 
are by our man. I assume that none of them are concordant with those in the 
Goess ms.

Cheers
MOnica



 

> On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>Dear Roland,
>Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - 1682
>may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by Losy
>(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms suggests a
>date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
>The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for continuo in
>this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces for
>solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well as
>famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections from
>time to time.
>Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de
>Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation around
>similar word association.
>regards,
>Martyn
> 
>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
> wrote:
>  While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play
>and
>  sound like Bartolotti.
>  Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of, who
>  could match the style and technique of these pieces?
>  r
>  Get [1]Outlook for Android
>__
>  From: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>  <[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Monica Hall
>  <[3]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
>  Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM
>  To: [4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; LuteList
>  <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
>  Thanks for this.
>  I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for
>  thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti.
>  Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any
>  other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let
>you
>  know.
>  Cheers
>  Monica
>  > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There
>is:
>  >
>  > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives a
>  bunch
>  > of literature which I don't know)
>  > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 (he
>  > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I
>  > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by
>  > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti as
>  > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.)
>  > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: âA. M. Bartolotti,
>  Pièces
>  > pour théorbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check!
>  >
>  > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're going
>  to
>  > find on this subject :-)
>  > Yuval
>  >
>  > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall:
>  > > Thanks Martyn
>  > > That's very helpful.
>  > > Regards
>  > > Monica
>  > >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson
>  > >> <[8]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
&

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Roland,
   Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - 1682
   may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by Losy
   (b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms suggests a
   date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
   The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for continuo in
   this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces for
   solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well as
   famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections from
   time to time.
   Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de
   Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation around
   similar word association.
   regards,
   Martyn

   On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
wrote:
 While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play
   and
 sound like Bartolotti.
 Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of, who
 could match the style and technique of these pieces?
 r
 Get [1]Outlook for Android
   __
 From: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
 <[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Monica Hall
 <[3]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM
 To: [4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; LuteList
 <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
 Thanks for this.
 I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for
 thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti.
 Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any
 other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let
   you
 know.
 Cheers
 Monica
 > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
 >
 >
 > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There
   is:
 >
 > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives a
 bunch
 > of literature which I don't know)
 > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 (he
 > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I
 > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by
 > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti as
 > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.)
 > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: âA. M. Bartolotti,
 Pièces
 > pour théorbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check!
 >
 > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're going
 to
 > find on this subject :-)
 > Yuval
 >
 > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall:
 > > Thanks Martyn
 > > That's very helpful.
 > > Regards
 > > Monica
 > >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson
 > >> <[8]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
 > >>
 > >>
 > >>Dear Monica,
 > >>No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing
   the
 > >> other
 > >>tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course,
 being
 > >>adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the
 > >> Allemande
 > >>(Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r.
 > >>The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v
 (reversed
 > >>folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as
 does
 > >> the
 > >>concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to
 accept
 > >>these as part of a suite by the same composer AM.  The fact
 that
 > >> the
 > >>earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have
   the
 > >>attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but....
 > >>regards,
 > >>Martyn
 > >>
 > >>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 09:56:59 BST, Monica Hall
 > >><[9]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
 > >>Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in Vienna includes
 10
 > >> pieces
 > >>for theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The Allemanda
   on
 > >> f.92r is
 > >>attributed to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on what
   grounds
 the
 > >>other nine pieces are attributed to Bartolotti?
 > >>Thanks
 > >>Monica
 > >>-

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Roland Hayes]

   While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play and
   sound like Bartolotti.

   Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of, who
   could match the style and technique of these pieces?

   r

   Get [1]Outlook for Android
 __

   From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
on behalf of Monica Hall
   
   Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM
   To: yuval.dvo...@posteo.de ; LuteList
   
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

   Thanks for this.
   I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for
   thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti.
   Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any
   other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let you
   know.
   Cheers
   Monica
   > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
   >
   >
   > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There is:
   >
   > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives a
   bunch
   > of literature which I don't know)
   > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 (he
   > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I
   > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by
   > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti as
   > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.)
   > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: „A. M. Bartolotti,
   Pièces
   > pour théorbe“, Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check!
   >
   > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're going
   to
   > find on this subject :-)
   > Yuval
   >
   > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall:
   > > Thanks Martyn
   > > That's very helpful.
   > > Regards
   > > Monica
   > >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson
   > >>  wrote:
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>Dear Monica,
   > >>No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing the
   > >> other
   > >>tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course,
   being
   > >>adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the
   > >> Allemande
   > >>(Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r.
   > >>The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v
   (reversed
   > >>folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as
   does
   > >> the
   > >>concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to
   accept
   > >>these as part of a suite by the same composer AM.  The fact
   that
   > >> the
   > >>earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have the
   > >>attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but
   > >>regards,
   > >>Martyn
   > >>
   > >>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 09:56:59 BST, Monica Hall
   > >> wrote:
   > >>Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in Vienna includes
   10
   > >> pieces
   > >>for theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The Allemanda on
   > >> f.92r is
   > >>attributed to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on what grounds
   the
   > >>other nine pieces are attributed to Bartolotti?
   > >>Thanks
   > >>Monica
   > >>--
   > >>To get on or off this list see list information at
   > >>[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   > >>
   > >>--
   > >>
   > >> References
   > >>
   > >>1. [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   > >>

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References

   1. https://aka.ms/ghei36
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Monica Hall]

Thanks for this.
I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for thinking the 
pieces are by Bartolotti.
Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any other 
sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let you know.
Cheers
Monica

> On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
> 
> 
> Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There is:
> 
> Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives a bunch 
> of literature which I don't know)
> Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 (he 
> doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I 
> apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by 
> "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti as 
> well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.)
> And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: „A. M. Bartolotti, Pièces 
> pour théorbe“, Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check!
> 
> Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're going to 
> find on this subject :-)
> Yuval
> 
> Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall:
> > Thanks Martyn
> > That's very helpful.
> > Regards
> > Monica
> >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson 
> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >>Dear Monica,
> >>No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing the 
> >> other
> >>tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course, being
> >>adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the 
> >> Allemande
> >>(Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r.
> >>The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v (reversed
> >>folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as does 
> >> the
> >>concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to accept
> >>these as part of a suite by the same composer AM.  The fact that 
> >> the
> >>earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have the
> >>attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but
> >>regards,
> >>Martyn
> >> 
> >>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 09:56:59 BST, Monica Hall
> >> wrote:
> >>Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in Vienna includes 10 
> >> pieces
> >>for theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The Allemanda on 
> >> f.92r is
> >>attributed to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on what grounds the
> >>other nine pieces are attributed to Bartolotti?
> >>Thanks
> >>Monica
> >>--
> >>To get on or off this list see list information at
> >>[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >> 
> >>--
> >> 
> >> References
> >> 
> >>1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[yuval . dvoran]

Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There is:

Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives a bunch 
of literature which I don't know)
Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 (he 
doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I 
apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by 
"Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti as 
well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.)
And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: „A. M. Bartolotti, Pièces 
pour théorbe“, Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check!


Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're going to 
find on this subject :-)

Yuval

Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall:

Thanks Martyn
That's very helpful.
Regards
Monica
On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson 
 wrote:



   Dear Monica,
   No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing the 
other

   tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course, being
   adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the 
Allemande

   (Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r.
   The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v (reversed
   folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as does 
the

   concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to accept
   these as part of a suite by the same composer AM.  The fact that 
the

   earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have the
   attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but
   regards,
   Martyn

   On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 09:56:59 BST, Monica Hall
wrote:
   Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in Vienna includes 10 
pieces
   for theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The Allemanda on 
f.92r is

   attributed to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on what grounds the
   other nine pieces are attributed to Bartolotti?
   Thanks
   Monica
   --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Monica Hall]

Thanks Martyn
That's very helpful.
Regards
Monica
> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>Dear Monica,
>No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing the other
>tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course, being
>adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the Allemande
>(Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r.
>The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v (reversed
>folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as does the
>concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to accept
>these as part of a suite by the same composer AM.  The fact that the
>earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have the
>attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but
>regards,
>Martyn
> 
>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 09:56:59 BST, Monica Hall
> wrote:
>Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in Vienna includes 10 pieces
>for theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The Allemanda on f.92r is
>attributed to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on what grounds the
>other nine pieces are attributed to Bartolotti?
>Thanks
>Monica
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> 
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>

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,
   No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing the other
   tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course, being
   adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the Allemande
   (Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r.
   The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v (reversed
   folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as does the
   concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to accept
   these as part of a suite by the same composer AM.  The fact that the
   earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have the
   attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but
   regards,
   Martyn

   On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 09:56:59 BST, Monica Hall
wrote:
   Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in Vienna includes 10 pieces
   for theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The Allemanda on f.92r is
   attributed to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on what grounds the
   other nine pieces are attributed to Bartolotti?
   Thanks
   Monica
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[LUTE] Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Monica Hall]

Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in Vienna includes 10 pieces for 
theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The Allemanda on f.92r is attributed 
to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on what grounds the other nine pieces are 
attributed to Bartolotti?

Thanks

Monica
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[LUTE] Re: Strings for an English theorbo set up as a baroque lute

[George Arndt]

   Hello everyone,

   I have been using salt-water fishing line on all my lutes for about 5
   years now. For the open bass stings on my baroque lutes and arch-lute I
   use 150 and 200 pound-test mono-filament leaders. For octaves I use 90
   pound-test. The easiest way to select the right size is to match the
   diameter of the string(s) you are replacing. That way you might not
   have to enlarge the clearance for that bridge, peg and nut guides.
   Some fishing lines are available with color and I find that useful for
   visual recognition / hand position. For the chanticleer I use 15
   pound-test clear mono-filament. This works fine for some of the
   fret-able octaves as well.

   I have found that when I have a peg that slips, because of greater new
   string tension, I can replace that string with another having a smaller
   diameter. I have only had to do this once for my 7 lutes. I can suggest
   you avoid using wound fishing line because it is abrasive. Yard trimmer
   line lacks mass and did not produce sufficient volume for me.  Also any
   special cutting-edge profiles render it impractical for our use.

   I have found fishing line strings enable me to play my lutes louder
   than my voice can project without a microphone and that is sufficient
   for me. My playing abilities are nowhere near that of many. So, I am
   not able provide any comparison to the strings experts use on their
   instruments.

   The best way to obtain salt-water fishing leaders is from the internet.
   It is available in small spools with length will last you a lifetime. I
   can re-string a baroque lute using less that $10 of new salt-water
   fishing line.

   Thanks,

   George
 __

   From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
on behalf of David van Ooijen
   
   Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2020 4:48 AM
   Cc: Lute Dmth 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Strings for an English theorbo set up as a baroque
   lute

  >>
 I can use plain gut for the strings that go up to 100 cm, but
   beyond
 that is what I need to work out. I imagine beyond that they will
   not
 work. Any suggestions would be helpful.
  >>
  I have plain gut, singles, so only the lower octave, on the neck
  extension of all my theorboes and archlutes.
  David
  ***
  David van Ooijen
  [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  [2]https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com
  ***
  On Sun, 3 May 2020 at 11:22, Martyn Hodgson
  <[3]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
   Dear Jay,
   Most Italian theorbos were, in fact double strung - it's a
   modern
day
   fashion to think they were only single strung.
   A 'baroque' lute based on early instruments and contemporary
   information would generally have a string length in the high
   60s
(say
   around 68cm) for most of the seventeenth century; -   by the
eighteenth
   the instrument, now being played in mostly German speaking
   lands,
was
   around the low 70s (say 71cm) - although a few larger
   instruments
are
   extant up to around 76cm which, of course, need to be tuned at
   a
very
   low pitch to bring the first course up to nominal f'.
   In short the baroque lute and the double re-entrant Italian
theorbo are
   two entirely different, and different sizes of, instruments and
must
   necessarily needs be configured in wholly different ways.
   regards
   Martyn
   On Sunday, 3 May 2020, 08:52:56 BST, Jay F.
   <[4]existentialismy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
   Hi Martyn,
   Yeah I have no intention of actually using it as an English
theorbo -
   its merely so I can have a 2-in-1 baroque lute and double
   course
   italian theorbo. The idea is just to use the design of the
    english
   theorbo to achieve that because its not possible to set up an
    italian
   theorbo with double courses.
   Cheers,
   Jay
__
   - Forwarded message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson <[5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   To: Jay F. <[6]existentialismy...@hotmail.com>
   Sent: Sunday, 3 May 2020, 08:24:35 BST
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Strings for an English theorbo set up as a
baroque
   lute
   Dear Jay F,
   An English theorbo with such a short fingered string length (ie
   76/77cm) would only have the first course an octave down, The
   historical practice was always to tune strings as high as they
could
   reach (ie just short of Br

[LUTE] Re: Strings for an English theorbo set up as a baroque lute

[David van Ooijen]

   >>
  I can use plain gut for the strings that go up to 100 cm, but beyond
  that is what I need to work out. I imagine beyond that they will not
  work. Any suggestions would be helpful.
   >>
   I have plain gut, singles, so only the lower octave, on the neck
   extension of all my theorboes and archlutes.
   David
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [2]https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com
   ***

   On Sun, 3 May 2020 at 11:22, Martyn Hodgson
   <[3]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

Dear Jay,
Most Italian theorbos were, in fact double strung - it's a modern
 day
fashion to think they were only single strung.
A 'baroque' lute based on early instruments and contemporary
information would generally have a string length in the high 60s
 (say
around 68cm) for most of the seventeenth century; -   by the
 eighteenth
the instrument, now being played in mostly German speaking lands,
 was
around the low 70s (say 71cm) - although a few larger instruments
 are
extant up to around 76cm which, of course, need to be tuned at a
 very
low pitch to bring the first course up to nominal f'.
In short the baroque lute and the double re-entrant Italian
 theorbo are
two entirely different, and different sizes of, instruments and
 must
necessarily needs be configured in wholly different ways.
regards
Martyn
On Sunday, 3 May 2020, 08:52:56 BST, Jay F.
<[4]existentialismy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi Martyn,
Yeah I have no intention of actually using it as an English
 theorbo -
its merely so I can have a 2-in-1 baroque lute and double course
italian theorbo. The idea is just to use the design of the
 english
theorbo to achieve that because its not possible to set up an
 italian
theorbo with double courses.
Cheers,
Jay

 __
- Forwarded message -
From: Martyn Hodgson <[5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: Jay F. <[6]existentialismy...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, 3 May 2020, 08:24:35 BST
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Strings for an English theorbo set up as a
 baroque
lute
    Dear Jay F,
An English theorbo with such a short fingered string length (ie
76/77cm) would only have the first course an octave down, The
historical practice was always to tune strings as high as they
 could
reach (ie just short of Breaking Stress). Thus a second course on
     a
    nominal G tuned English theorbo would be d' which is fine for
 this
string length at the pitch standards common at the time.
MH
On Sunday, 3 May 2020, 08:17:17 BST, Jay F.
<[7]existentialismy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I'm considering doing something a bit crazy and getting a 14
 course
English theorbo, albeit one strung in D minor as a baroque lute.
 The
logic here is that it will allow me to play baroque music (mainly
Weiss) but if I feel so inclined I can just change the top two
 courses,
add the 14th and then play standard 16th century theorbo solo
repertoire in A. I'm sure a double course theorbo would sound
 pretty
cool.
I've only just come up with the idea so I haven't really put much
thought into it which is why I'm reaching out to the collective
 here.
Can any of you think of the major problems with this idea?
One obvious problem will be selecting the right strings. I'm
 thinking
I'll go for the top 8 courses with a string length of 76 or 77 cm
 (for
fretting) and have the bottom 6 courses stagger up to about 135
 cm.   My
understanding is that Italian theorbos are single course
 instruments
because the octave courses snap once they are required to be
 beyond a
certain length at a given pitch. The English theorbo is I guess
supposed to keep the octave strings short and the bases long. I'm
 sure
I can use plain gut for the strings that go up to 100 cm, but
 beyond
that is what I need to work out. I imagine beyond that they will
 not
work. Any suggestions would be helpful. I'm thinking I might need
 to go
    for carbon strings? Linda Sayce's theorbo appears to use metal
overwound strings which I would prefer to avoid.
Cheers,
Jay
-[1]l
 Lute Mail list technical information
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[LUTE] Re: Strings for an English theorbo set up as a baroque lute

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Jay,
   Most Italian theorbos were, in fact double strung - it's a modern day
   fashion to think they were only single strung.
   A 'baroque' lute based on early instruments and contemporary
   information would generally have a string length in the high 60s (say
   around 68cm) for most of the seventeenth century; -  by the eighteenth
   the instrument, now being played in mostly German speaking lands, was
   around the low 70s (say 71cm) - although a few larger instruments are
   extant up to around 76cm which, of course, need to be tuned at a very
   low pitch to bring the first course up to nominal f'.
   In short the baroque lute and the double re-entrant Italian theorbo are
   two entirely different, and different sizes of, instruments and must
   necessarily needs be configured in wholly different ways.
   regards
   Martyn
   On Sunday, 3 May 2020, 08:52:56 BST, Jay F.
wrote:
   Hi Martyn,
   Yeah I have no intention of actually using it as an English theorbo -
   its merely so I can have a 2-in-1 baroque lute and double course
   italian theorbo. The idea is just to use the design of the english
   theorbo to achieve that because its not possible to set up an italian
   theorbo with double courses.
   Cheers,
   Jay
 __

   - Forwarded message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: Jay F. 
   Sent: Sunday, 3 May 2020, 08:24:35 BST
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Strings for an English theorbo set up as a baroque
   lute
   Dear Jay F,
   An English theorbo with such a short fingered string length (ie
   76/77cm) would only have the first course an octave down, The
   historical practice was always to tune strings as high as they could
   reach (ie just short of Breaking Stress). Thus a second course on a
   nominal G tuned English theorbo would be d' which is fine for this
   string length at the pitch standards common at the time.
   MH
   On Sunday, 3 May 2020, 08:17:17 BST, Jay F.
wrote:
   Hi everyone,
   I'm considering doing something a bit crazy and getting a 14 course
   English theorbo, albeit one strung in D minor as a baroque lute. The
   logic here is that it will allow me to play baroque music (mainly
   Weiss) but if I feel so inclined I can just change the top two courses,
   add the 14th and then play standard 16th century theorbo solo
   repertoire in A. I'm sure a double course theorbo would sound pretty
   cool.
   I've only just come up with the idea so I haven't really put much
   thought into it which is why I'm reaching out to the collective here.
   Can any of you think of the major problems with this idea?
   One obvious problem will be selecting the right strings. I'm thinking
   I'll go for the top 8 courses with a string length of 76 or 77 cm (for
   fretting) and have the bottom 6 courses stagger up to about 135 cm.  My
   understanding is that Italian theorbos are single course instruments
   because the octave courses snap once they are required to be beyond a
   certain length at a given pitch. The English theorbo is I guess
   supposed to keep the octave strings short and the bases long. I'm sure
   I can use plain gut for the strings that go up to 100 cm, but beyond
   that is what I need to work out. I imagine beyond that they will not
   work. Any suggestions would be helpful. I'm thinking I might need to go
   for carbon strings? Linda Sayce's theorbo appears to use metal
   overwound strings which I would prefer to avoid.
   Cheers,
   Jay
   -[1]l

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[LUTE] Re: Strings for an English theorbo set up as a baroque lute

[Martin Shepherd]

Just a couple of comments:

Because Weiss is in normal tuning, you need to accept quite a low pitch 
at 76cm, about d' for the top string.


Italian theorboes were nearly always double strung on the fingerboard, 
6x2, with 8 single basses.  So there is no question of octave strings.  
In any case, any string material breaks at the same pitch regardless of 
its diameter.


The English theorbo (e.g. Mace) has double strings throughout, so even 
the longest basses will have an octave to brighten the sound.


Martin

On 03/05/2020 09:15, Jay F. wrote:

--_000_SLXP216MB06062449066C97A5A0E285FDCBA90SLXP216MB0606KORP_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi everyone,

I'm considering doing something a bit crazy and getting a 14 course English 
theorbo, albeit one strung in D minor as a baroque lute. The logic here is that 
it will allow me to play baroque music (mainly Weiss) but if I feel so inclined 
I can just change the top two courses, add the 14th and then play standard 16th 
century theorbo solo repertoire in A. I'm sure a double course theorbo would 
sound pretty cool.

I've only just come up with the idea so I haven't really put much thought into 
it which is why I'm reaching out to the collective here. Can any of you think 
of the major problems with this idea?

One obvious problem will be selecting the right strings. I'm thinking I'll go 
for the top 8 courses with a string length of 76 or 77 cm (for fretting) and 
have the bottom 6 courses stagger up to about 135 cm.  My understanding is that 
Italian theorbos are single course instruments because the octave courses snap 
once they are required to be beyond a certain length at a given pitch. The 
English theorbo is I guess supposed to keep the octave strings short and the 
bases long. I'm sure I can use plain gut for the strings that go up to 100 cm, 
but beyond that is what I need to work out. I imagine beyond that they will not 
work. Any suggestions would be helpful. I'm thinking I might need to go for 
carbon strings? Linda Sayce's theorbo appears to use metal overwound strings 
which I would prefer to avoid.

Cheers,

Jay

--_000_SLXP216MB06062449066C97A5A0E285FDCBA90SLXP216MB0606KORP_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} 




Hi everyone,




I'm considering doing something a bit crazy and getting a 14 course English 
theorbo, albeit one strung in D minor as a baroque lute. The logic here is that 
it will allow me to play baroque music (mainly Weiss) but if I feel so inclined 
I can just change the
  top two courses, add the 14th and then play standard 16th century theorbo solo 
repertoire in A. I'm sure a double course theorbo would sound pretty 
cool.




I've only just come up with the idea so I haven't really put much thought into it which 
is why I'm reaching out to the collective here. Can any of you think of the major 
problems with this idea?




One obvious problem will be selecting the right strings. I'm thinking I'll go for the top 8 courses 
with a string length of 76 or 77 cm (for fretting) and have the bottom 6 courses stagger up to about 
135 cm.My
understandingis that Italian theorbos are single course instruments
becausethe octave courses snap once they are required to be beyond
  a certain length at a given pitch. The English theorbo is I guess supposed to 
keep the octave strings short and the bases long. I'm sure I can use plain gut 
for the strings that go up to 100 cm, but beyond that is what I need to work 
out. I imagine beyond
  that they will not work. Any suggestions would be helpful. I'm thinking I might need to go 
for carbon strings? Linda Sayce's theorbo appears to use metal overwound strings which I would 
prefer to avoid.


Cheers,


Jay



--_000_SLXP216MB06062449066C97A5A0E285FDCBA90SLXP216MB0606KORP_--

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[LUTE] Strings for an English theorbo set up as a baroque lute

[Jay F.]

--_000_SLXP216MB06062449066C97A5A0E285FDCBA90SLXP216MB0606KORP_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi everyone,

I'm considering doing something a bit crazy and getting a 14 course English 
theorbo, albeit one strung in D minor as a baroque lute. The logic here is that 
it will allow me to play baroque music (mainly Weiss) but if I feel so inclined 
I can just change the top two courses, add the 14th and then play standard 16th 
century theorbo solo repertoire in A. I'm sure a double course theorbo would 
sound pretty cool.

I've only just come up with the idea so I haven't really put much thought into 
it which is why I'm reaching out to the collective here. Can any of you think 
of the major problems with this idea?

One obvious problem will be selecting the right strings. I'm thinking I'll go 
for the top 8 courses with a string length of 76 or 77 cm (for fretting) and 
have the bottom 6 courses stagger up to about 135 cm.  My understanding is that 
Italian theorbos are single course instruments because the octave courses snap 
once they are required to be beyond a certain length at a given pitch. The 
English theorbo is I guess supposed to keep the octave strings short and the 
bases long. I'm sure I can use plain gut for the strings that go up to 100 cm, 
but beyond that is what I need to work out. I imagine beyond that they will not 
work. Any suggestions would be helpful. I'm thinking I might need to go for 
carbon strings? Linda Sayce's theorbo appears to use metal overwound strings 
which I would prefer to avoid.

Cheers,

Jay

--_000_SLXP216MB06062449066C97A5A0E285FDCBA90SLXP216MB0606KORP_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} 




Hi everyone,




I'm considering doing something a bit crazy and getting a 14 course English 
theorbo, albeit one strung in D minor as a baroque lute. The logic here is that 
it will allow me to play baroque music (mainly Weiss) but if I feel so inclined 
I can just change the
 top two courses, add the 14th and then play standard 16th century theorbo solo 
repertoire in A. I'm sure a double course theorbo would sound pretty 
cool.




I've only just come up with the idea so I haven't really put much thought into 
it which is why I'm reaching out to the collective here. Can any of you think 
of the major problems with this idea?




One obvious problem will be selecting the right strings. I'm thinking I'll go 
for the top 8 courses with a string length of 76 or 77 cm (for fretting) and 
have the bottom 6 courses stagger up to about 135 cm.My
understandingis that Italian 
theorbos are single course instruments
becausethe octave courses snap 
once they are required to be beyond
 a certain length at a given pitch. The English theorbo is I guess supposed to 
keep the octave strings short and the bases long. I'm sure I can use plain gut 
for the strings that go up to 100 cm, but beyond that is what I need to work 
out. I imagine beyond
 that they will not work. Any suggestions would be helpful. I'm thinking I 
might need to go for carbon strings? Linda Sayce's theorbo appears to use metal 
overwound strings which I would prefer to avoid.


Cheers,


Jay



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[LUTE] [Lute] Most Complex Slide Rule for Composing on Theorbo

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

   Hello there,
   I wish you the best of luck in these corona virus  lock in.
   I am new to sliderules  and I want to ask that is thre  a slide rule
   for composing music on theorbo ?
   This is hit and miss question and I am beting  my chance,
   Thank you very much,
   Mustafa Umut Sarac
   Istanbul

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[LUTE] HOMEWARD For Theorbo Composed By Gilbert Isbin

[Gilbert Isbin]

   [1]https://youtu.be/d2cg_qs4T98

   With kind regards,

   Met vriendelijke groeten,

   Bien cordialement,
   Gilbert Isbin
   [2]www.gilbertisbin.com
   [3]gilbert.is...@gmail.com

   --

References

   1. https://youtu.be/d2cg_qs4T98
   2. http://www.gilbertisbin.com/
   3. mailto:gilbert.is...@gmail.com


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[LUTE] PARTIR For Theorbo

[Gilbert Isbin]

   [1]https://youtu.be/vBSKVaWcS5o

   With kind regards,

   Met vriendelijke groeten,

   Bien cordialement,
   Gilbert Isbin
   [2]www.gilbertisbin.com
   [3]gilbert.is...@gmail.com

   --

References

   1. https://youtu.be/vBSKVaWcS5o
   2. http://www.gilbertisbin.com/
   3. mailto:gilbert.is...@gmail.com


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[LUTE] Re: A historical Ukrainian ballad for Theorbo

[Roman Turovsky]

Premiered by Francesco Motta! -
https://youtu.be/GUpC2dSz2X4

Amities,
RT

On 12/29/2019 9:58 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

[1]http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theorbo/images/guktheorbo-E.mp3
[2]http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theorbo/images/guktheorbo-E.pdf

Still warm, for your perusal and delectation!
Met vriendelijke groeten,

RT

--

References

1. 
http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theorbo/images/guktheorbo-E.mp3?fbclid=IwAR0AjlF-6D5dhw5TuAwijQBCIytzh1lby8SePCYkoPzP1zMfX761S-EO_MI
2. 
http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theorbo/images/guktheorbo-E.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1xd1Q-_-5oHdtFAhW4VfFj_uPh29rWf8aXys6Aw_pjDdhq3TSA3TtZg90


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[LUTE] BY STARLIGHT For Theorbo

[Gilbert Isbin]

   [1]https://youtu.be/ikhQ3l1hsJE

   With kind regards,

   Met vriendelijke groeten,

   Bien cordialement,
   Gilbert Isbin
   [2]www.gilbertisbin.com
   [3]gilbert.is...@gmail.com

   --

References

   1. https://youtu.be/ikhQ3l1hsJE
   2. http://www.gilbertisbin.com/
   3. mailto:gilbert.is...@gmail.com


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[LUTE] A historical Ukrainian ballad for Theorbo

[Roman Turovsky]

   [1]http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theorbo/images/guktheorbo-E.mp3
   [2]http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theorbo/images/guktheorbo-E.pdf

   Still warm, for your perusal and delectation!
   Met vriendelijke groeten,

   RT

   --

References

   1. 
http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theorbo/images/guktheorbo-E.mp3?fbclid=IwAR0AjlF-6D5dhw5TuAwijQBCIytzh1lby8SePCYkoPzP1zMfX761S-EO_MI
   2. 
http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theorbo/images/guktheorbo-E.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1xd1Q-_-5oHdtFAhW4VfFj_uPh29rWf8aXys6Aw_pjDdhq3TSA3TtZg90


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[LUTE] WILLOW SONG For Theorbo

[Gilbert Isbin]

   [1]https://youtu.be/mmAKUq_LB_w

   With kind regards,

   Met vriendelijke groeten,

   Bien cordialement,
   Gilbert Isbin
   [2]www.gilbertisbin.com
   [3]gilbert.is...@gmail.com

   --

References

   1. https://youtu.be/mmAKUq_LB_w
   2. http://www.gilbertisbin.com/
   3. mailto:gilbert.is...@gmail.com


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[LUTE] YOU GOT ME DREAMING For Theorbo

[Gilbert Isbin]

   [1]https://youtu.be/PG--hFm2pHg

   With kind regards,

   Met vriendelijke groeten,

   Bien cordialement,
   Gilbert Isbin
   [2]www.gilbertisbin.com
   [3]gilbert.is...@gmail.com

   --

References

   1. https://youtu.be/PG--hFm2pHg
   2. http://www.gilbertisbin.com/
   3. mailto:gilbert.is...@gmail.com


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Ask about theorbo long neck wood

[Jarosław Czaplicki]

   Dear all,
   Sometimes I'm thinking about making my dreaming theorbo but I don't
   know if it would be better to start with building baroque lute. Its
   possible to making the long neck theorbo from two piece of wood? I'm
   worried about   can't find long enough piece of wood such as maple or
   mahogany. Is it necessary to have quartersawn log of wood or is it
   enough flat-sawn?
   Thanks for answering my questions.
   Best wishes
   Jaroslaw Czaplicki

   --


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[LUTE] Theorbo?

[Wolfgang]

I own a Theorbo-like lute from Herb. It has 1 single and 5 double
strings on the fretboard (68cm) + 8 single open strings (144cm). What
would be the tuning for this instrument (it seems to be too long for
archlute and too short for theorbo.

Wolfgang




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[LUTE] stolen theorbo

[wayne lute]

A Matthew Durvie theorbo was stolen from Dr. Gregory Hamilton  oct. 8th in 
Irving Texas.  you can contact him at 8325450900

  Wayne


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[LUTE] theorbo gone

[Elliott Chapin]

bittersweet, thanks and regrets

--
elliottchapin.com/me gon



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[LUTE] Re: Ornament in Hurel's Theorbo Music

[Christopher Wilke]

   Hi John,

   I researched this back when I made my Hurel album. I asked this list at
   the time as well. I didn't find a completely definitive answer nor have
   I since. I elected to ignore it in performance. It's worth mentioning
   that Hurel uses all the typical ornament signs, so it's probably not a
   replacement for a standard symbol. The cypher appears in Hurel's d
   minor gigue as well.

   Chris
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   On Saturday, September 28, 2019, 10:41 AM, John Trout
wrote:

   Dear Lute list members, Does anyone know the meaning of the underlined
   or horizontal line under a note, symbol in Hurel's theorbo music?

   For example in the Allemande Gigue in G on page 19:

   First line, last measure d

   2nd line, first measure d

   Thanks,  John

   


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   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Ornament in Hurel's Theorbo Music

[John Trout]

Dear Lute list members, Does anyone know the meaning of the underlined or 
horizontal line under a note, symbol in Hurel's theorbo music?  
For example in the Allemande Gigue in G on page 19:

First line, last measure d
2nd line, first measure d

Thanks,  John
 






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[LUTE] Michael Schreiner theorbo

[Elliott Chapin]

   I need to keep things simple: no refund, no shipping worries, etc. You
   really have to see it for yourself before putting down your money.

    Forwarded Message 
   Subject: Fwd: [LUTE] Michael Schreiner theorbo
  Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 14:18:20 -0400
  From: Elliott Chapin [1]
To: Lute List [2]

   Holding on pictures because have a couple of replies and there may be
   more. It's after the Veneri 14-course 75/135, double-strung mains large
   shallowish body with 1 rose. There was an early structural problem
   fixed by Michael, and a later on another one I fixed myself; the
   instrument has been sound for years; there is a cosmetic blemish. If I
   kept it I would restring and refret. Oh yes, it's now single-strung
   (M/S), with an added diapason at the top of the range. My intent was
   more toward solo intabulations. Originally it cost me $2000; I would
   take $500; best there or over in reasonable time gets to visit me in
   Toronto and look it over.

    Forwarded Message n
   Subject: ever
  Date:
  From: Elliott Chapin [3]
To: Lute List [4]
   I have been reducing the scope of my musical activities. I commissioned
   Michael's first theorbo, and it is now available - playable but could
   use some work. Details available; I live in Toronto.
--
elliottchapin.com/me



To get on or off this list see list information at
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   --

References

   1. mailto:echa...@teksavvy.com
   2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:echa...@teksavvy.com
   4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Michael Schreiner theorbo

[Elliott Chapin]

   Holding on pictures because have a couple of replies and there may be
   more. It's after the Veneri 14-course 75/135, double-strung mains large
   shallowish body with 1 rose. There was an early structural problem
   fixed by Michael, and a later on another one I fixed myself; the
   instrument has been sound for years; there is a cosmetic blemish. If I
   kept it I would restring and refret. Oh yes, it's now single-strung
   (M/S), with an added diapason at the top of the range. My intent was
   more toward solo intabulations. Originally it cost me $2000; I would
   take $500; best there or over in reasonable time gets to visit me in
   Toronto and look it over.

    Forwarded Message n
   Subject: ever
  Date:
  From: Elliott Chapin [1]
To: Lute List [2]
   I have been reducing the scope of my musical activities. I commissioned
   Michael's first theorbo, and it is now available - playable but could
   use some work. Details available; I live in Toronto.
--
elliottchapin.com/me



To get on or off this list see list information at
[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


   --

References

   1. mailto:echa...@teksavvy.com
   2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Michael Schreiner theorbo

[Elliott Chapin]

I have been reducing the scope of my musical activities. I commissioned 
Michael's first theorbo, and it is now available - playable but could 
use some work. Details available; I live in Toronto.


--
elliottchapin.com/me;



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[David Van Edwards]

Dear Luca,

That's an interesting reference and clearly the 
term was commonly used in that way since there's 
even a label in the Unverdorben swan-neck lute in 
Fenton House which reads:

Marx Unverdorben in Venetia 158-
[illegible] 161-
Gabriel David Buchstetter Lauden und / 
Geigen-Macher zu Stadt am Hoff nebst / Regenspurg 
Anno 1747 / Renoviert un Theorbirt


It seems as if the term was used through the 
centuries and in different countries for 
different instruments whose only common feature 
is having unstopped longer strings carried on a 
separate pegbox.


It's only a problem for us when trying to 
establish standard terms for ourselves nowadays. 
In many ways the most successful scheme is 
Friedmann Hellwig's idea of simply giving letter 
names for the different shapes and layouts from 
his master reference sketches which he outlines 
in his article in Early Music Oct 1981 and which 
is used in the Lautenweltaddressbuch database. 
However this falls down on the difference between 
the 18th century mandora and the renaissance 
lute, since they both come under A or B


Best wishes,

David



At 23:49 +0200 18/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote:

   Louise Gottsched, who wrote the first biographic article about S. L.
   Weiss in her husband' BIG "Handlexicon" ("Handlexikon oder kurzgefaˆütes
   Wˆrterbuch der schˆnen Wissenschaften und freyen Kˆºnste", Leipzig:
   Gleditsch, 1760), defines the swan neck lute as "theorbieret" (if I
   remember correctly) and of course attributes the idea to S. L. Weiss.
   Despite what some lutemakers seem to like, I wouldn't define the swan
   neck baroque lute as a "theorbo": it introduces much confusion in a
   field where we do not need to add more, I believe.
    Attivato Sun, 18 Aug 2019 23:06:37 +0200 David Van Edwards
ha scritto 

   Dear Howard,
   The Tielke is a bizarre German baroque swan neck
   style job with an extremely long neck probably
   the result of a conversion by Bachmann in 1760.
   The Tieffenbrucker is another swan neck
   instrument resulting from a conversion possibly
   by Fux though 1696 is a bit early unless it was
   then intended as an angelique.Neither are what we
   would nowadays call a theorbo, though of course
   the term was in use then for such instuments.
   Best wishes,
   David
   At 13:37 -0700 18/8/19, howard posner wrote:
   > > On Aug 18, 2019, at 10:22 AM, David Van
   >Edwards <[1]da...@vanedwards.co.uk> wrote:
   >>
   >> There are of course several luiti attiorbati in
   >> Paris with 7 fingered courses but one of them
   >> looks a bit theorbo-ish and might be the one
   >> you're thinking of. It's anonymous E.25 (C228) 13
   >> courses 1x1, 6x2 @ 710mm + 6x2 @ 1090. Joˆ´l's
   >> catalogue thinks it was converted from a
   >> German/Italian renaissance lute into a liuto
   >> attiorbato in 17th century. All the real theorbos
   >> there have six fingered courses, either double or
   >> single.
   >
   >My information is all second or third-hand, but
   >I was also thinking of the "Magno diefobruchar a
   >venetia" and Tielke instruments in Paris Musee
   >de la Musique, both apparently configured like
   >German lutes with 8 fingerboard courses at 82
   >and 84 cm.
   >
   >
   >
   >To get on or off this list see list information at
   >[2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
   The Smokehouse,
   6 Whitwell Road,
   Norwich, NR1 4HB
   England.
   Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
   Website: [3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

   --

References

   1. mailto:da...@vanedwards.co.uk
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   3. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/



--
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.


Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[Luca Manassero]

   Thank you, Yuval: you're absolutely right. I'm always been really
   curious about poor Monsieur Maltot, about whom we know absolutely
   nothing, besides François Campion's citation...
    Attivato Sun, 18 Aug 2019 18:43:17 +0200 Yuval Dvoran
ha scritto 

   I'm not sure if it was stated earlier, but actually Campion makes his
   teacher Maltot (who is, apart from the appearance in Campion's
   treatise, completely unknown) responsible for having invented the
   theorbo with 8 strings/courses on the fretboard, most possibly
   resulting from the invention of wound strings some years earlier.
   See Campion, Addition (available online on gallica.bnf.fr) for more
   details.Am 18.08.2019 18:00 schrieb Luca Manassero
   <[1]l...@manassero.net>:
   >
   >Dear Magnus,
   >  thank you for all these interesting points. Personally, I
   fully
   >agree (as you may have noticed from my remark about all these
   theorbos
   >showing 8 fretted single courses...)
   >I think I saw the seven course Koch theorbo in Berlin, being now
   nearly
   >ein Berliner, I went more than a couple of times to that small,
   but
   >interesting museum. On the other side the Schelle theorbo has been
   >built in 1728, most probably then tuned in D therefore with the
   first
   >course tuned in d. Focused on a completely different repertoire I
   can
   >more easily understand it would have seven fretted courses: then
   you'll
   >a fretted G and a fretted F, nicely offering you a G# and an F# on
   the
   >    first fret...
   >It's also a foldeable theorbo, which makes it a really noticeable
   >instrument, by the way.
   >I think I remember another seven course theorbo in Paris at the
   Cit de
   >la Musique, but I do not have the catalogue with me, so couldn't
   check
   >whether and why I remember it.
   >If the 8 course "vague" started with Franciolini, that's a really
   nice
   >hint, David!
   >All the best,
   >Luca
   > Attivato dom, 18 ago 2019 08:59:25 +0200 magnus andersson
   ><[2]maan7...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> ha scritto 
   >
   >Dear Luca, dear David, dear Howard,
   >thanks for the infos!
   >It is indeed interesting- checking the lautenweltadressbuch
   database,
   >entering "G" as type and looking for instruments with more than,
   say,
   >80 cm long petit jeu, I could only find the Berlin instrument by
   Koch
   >and the Schelle in Nuremberg to have more than 6 courses on the
   >fingerboard.
   >To my knowledge:
   >there is zero extant solo (French/Italian) music written for a
   theorbo
   >with more than 6 courses on the fingerboard- ranging from
   Kapsperger to
   >Robert de Vis e.
   >All extant theorbo continuo (Italian and French) tutors- with the
   >noteable exception of Francois Campion- use instruments with 6
   courses
   >on the fingerboard.
   >The iconographic surviving material of plausible theorboes shows a
   >dominance of 6 single fretboard stringed instruments in the 17th
   >century.
   >On a personal note- as a modern player- I find it much more
   important
   >that I have an instrument which works well for the main bulk of
   the
   >repertoire, i.e. the 17th century, than having a short F and G to
   fit
   >those low chromatic F sharps / G sharps in.
   >For the 18th century, as it is much more accompanied with addition
   of a
   >bowed instrument (at least it, imo, ought to be more than the
   music of
   >the early 17th century ), I feel happy to leave those few notes
   out or
   >play them at a higher octave.
   >It is not to be taken lightly, the feeling of playing Monteverdi
   in big
   >spaces on a big theorbo with the long strings commencing from the
   7th
   >and downwards. The instrument tends to do most of the work itself
   then!
   >Best,
   >Magnus
   >On Saturday, August 17, 2019, 10:25:28 PM GMT+2, David Van Edwards
   ><[1][3]da...@vanedwards.co.uk> wrote:
   >Dear Luca,
   >I have the original string lengths down as 823
   >and 1677. Indeed it is odd how many theorbos
   >there are with 8 courses on the fingerboard, it
   >seems to have been a fashion started by that
   >well-known authority Leopoldo Franciolini.
   >Best wishes,
   >David
   >At 20:29 +0200 17/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote:
   >> Dear David,
   >> thank you!!
   >> The two pictures are finally big enough to be understandable.
   >> I was also curious about the original string lengths, if you
   >happen to
   >> know them.
 

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[Luca Manassero]

   Louise Gottsched, who wrote the first biographic article about S. L.
   Weiss in her husband' BIG "Handlexicon" ("Handlexikon oder kurzgefaßtes
   Wörterbuch der schönen Wissenschaften und freyen Künste", Leipzig:
   Gleditsch, 1760), defines the swan neck lute as "theorbieret" (if I
   remember correctly) and of course attributes the idea to S. L. Weiss.
   Despite what some lutemakers seem to like, I wouldn't define the swan
   neck baroque lute as a "theorbo": it introduces much confusion in a
   field where we do not need to add more, I believe.
    Attivato Sun, 18 Aug 2019 23:06:37 +0200 David Van Edwards
ha scritto 

   Dear Howard,
   The Tielke is a bizarre German baroque swan neck
   style job with an extremely long neck probably
   the result of a conversion by Bachmann in 1760.
   The Tieffenbrucker is another swan neck
   instrument resulting from a conversion possibly
   by Fux though 1696 is a bit early unless it was
   then intended as an angelique.Neither are what we
   would nowadays call a theorbo, though of course
   the term was in use then for such instuments.
   Best wishes,
   David
   At 13:37 -0700 18/8/19, howard posner wrote:
   > > On Aug 18, 2019, at 10:22 AM, David Van
   >Edwards <[1]da...@vanedwards.co.uk> wrote:
   >>
   >> There are of course several luiti attiorbati in
   >> Paris with 7 fingered courses but one of them
   >> looks a bit theorbo-ish and might be the one
   >> you're thinking of. It's anonymous E.25 (C228) 13
   >> courses 1x1, 6x2 @ 710mm + 6x2 @ 1090. Joël's
   >> catalogue thinks it was converted from a
   >> German/Italian renaissance lute into a liuto
   >> attiorbato in 17th century. All the real theorbos
   >> there have six fingered courses, either double or
   >> single.
   >
   >My information is all second or third-hand, but
   >I was also thinking of the "Magno diefobruchar a
   >venetia" and Tielke instruments in Paris Musee
   >de la Musique, both apparently configured like
   >German lutes with 8 fingerboard courses at 82
   >and 84 cm.
   >
   >
   >
   >To get on or off this list see list information at
   >[2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
   The Smokehouse,
   6 Whitwell Road,
   Norwich, NR1 4HB
   England.
   Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
   Website: [3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

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References

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   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   3. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[howard posner]

> On Aug 18, 2019, at 2:06 PM, David Van Edwards  wrote:
> 
> The Tielke is a bizarre German baroque swan neck 
> style job with an extremely long neck probably 
> the result of a conversion by Bachmann in 1760.
> 
> The Tieffenbrucker is another swan neck 
> instrument resulting from a conversion possibly 
> by Fux though 1696 is a bit early unless it was 
> then intended as an angelique.Neither are what we 
> would nowadays call a theorbo, though of course 
> the term was in use then for such instuments.

And with fingerboard lengths in the eighties, they would have to have been 
strung and used as theorbos by the players who probably called them theorbos.

It seems we’re having a discussion about nomenclature rather than organology.  
But that’s cool, and it’s always fun to push a button and call up the 
encyclopedia of instruments you carry around in your head.




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[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[David Van Edwards]

Dear Howard,

The Tielke is a bizarre German baroque swan neck 
style job with an extremely long neck probably 
the result of a conversion by Bachmann in 1760.


The Tieffenbrucker is another swan neck 
instrument resulting from a conversion possibly 
by Fux though 1696 is a bit early unless it was 
then intended as an angelique.Neither are what we 
would nowadays call a theorbo, though of course 
the term was in use then for such instuments.


Best wishes,

David



At 13:37 -0700 18/8/19, howard posner wrote:
 > On Aug 18, 2019, at 10:22 AM, David Van 
Edwards  wrote:


 There are of course several luiti attiorbati in
 Paris with 7 fingered courses but one of them
 looks a bit theorbo-ish and might be the one
 you're thinking of. It's anonymous E.25 (C228) 13
 courses 1x1, 6x2 @ 710mm + 6x2 @ 1090. Joël's
 catalogue thinks it was converted from a
 German/Italian renaissance lute into a liuto
 attiorbato in 17th century. All the real theorbos
 there have six fingered courses, either double or
 single.


My information is all second or third-hand, but 
I was also thinking of the "Magno diefobruchar a 
venetia" and Tielke instruments in Paris Musee 
de la Musique, both apparently configured like 
German lutes with 8 fingerboard courses at 82 
and 84 cm.




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6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.


Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[howard posner]

> On Aug 18, 2019, at 10:22 AM, David Van Edwards  
> wrote:
> 
> There are of course several luiti attiorbati in 
> Paris with 7 fingered courses but one of them 
> looks a bit theorbo-ish and might be the one 
> you're thinking of. It's anonymous E.25 (C228) 13 
> courses 1x1, 6x2 @ 710mm + 6x2 @ 1090. Joël's 
> catalogue thinks it was converted from a 
> German/Italian renaissance lute into a liuto 
> attiorbato in 17th century. All the real theorbos 
> there have six fingered courses, either double or 
> single.

My information is all second or third-hand, but I was also thinking of the 
“Magno diefobruchar a venetia" and Tielke instruments in Paris Musee de la 
Musique, both apparently configured like German lutes with 8 fingerboard 
courses at 82 and 84 cm.



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[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[magnus andersson]

   Dear Luca,

   Yes, I forgot to write, I also own a copy of Schelleâs 1728 instrument,
   made by Ivo Magherini. Tuned in d minor, as you mention, without the
   high f course, it's an extremely effective instrument which works
   fantastic for the German late baroque repertoire. Highly recommend
   model for anyone interested in playing this music.

   Best,

   Magnus

   [1]Skickat från Yahoo Mail för iPhone

   Den söndag, augusti 18, 2019, 6:00 em, skrev Luca Manassero
   :

 Dear Magnus,

   thank you for all these interesting points. Personally, I fully

 agree (as you may have noticed from my remark about all these
   theorbos

 showing 8 fretted single courses...)

 I think I saw the seven course Koch theorbo in Berlin, being now
   nearly

 ein Berliner, I went more than a couple of times to that small, but

 interesting museum. On the other side the Schelle theorbo has been

 built in 1728, most probably then tuned in D therefore with the first

 course tuned in d. Focused on a completely different repertoire I can

 more easily understand it would have seven fretted courses: then
   you'll

 a fretted G and a fretted F, nicely offering you a G# and an F# on
   the

 first fret...

 It's also a foldeable theorbo, which makes it a really noticeable

 instrument, by the way.

 I think I remember another seven course theorbo in Paris at the Cité
   de

 la Musique, but I do not have the catalogue with me, so couldn't
   check

 whether and why I remember it.

 If the 8 course "vague" started with Franciolini, that's a really
   nice

 hint, David!

 All the best,

 Luca

  Attivato dom, 18 ago 2019 08:59:25 +0200 magnus andersson

 <[2]maan7...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> ha scritto 

 Dear Luca, dear David, dear Howard,

 thanks for the infos!

 It is indeed interesting- checking the lautenweltadressbuch database,

 entering "G" as type and looking for instruments with more than, say,

 80 cm long petit jeu, I could only find the Berlin instrument by Koch

 and the Schelle in Nuremberg to have more than 6 courses on the

 fingerboard.

 To my knowledge:

 there is zero extant solo (French/Italian) music written for a
   theorbo

 with more than 6 courses on the fingerboard- ranging from Kapsperger
   to

 Robert de Visà �à �e.

 All extant theorbo continuo (Italian and French) tutors- with the

 noteable exception of Francois Campion- use instruments with 6
   courses

 on the fingerboard.

 The iconographic surviving material of plausible theorboes shows a

 dominance of 6 single fretboard stringed instruments in the 17th

 century.

 On a personal note- as a modern player- I find it much more important

 that I have an instrument which works well for the main bulk of the

 repertoire, i.e. the 17th century, than having a short F and G to fit

 those low chromatic F sharps / G sharps in.

 For the 18th century, as it is much more accompanied with addition of
   a

 bowed instrument (at least it, imo, ought to be more than the music
   of

 the early 17th century ), I feel happy to leave those few notes out
   or

 play them at a higher octave.

 It is not to be taken lightly, the feeling of playing Monteverdi in
   big

     spaces on a big theorbo with the long strings commencing from the 7th

 and downwards. The instrument tends to do most of the work itself
   then!

 Best,

 Magnus

 On Saturday, August 17, 2019, 10:25:28 PM GMT+2, David Van Edwards

 <[1][3]da...@vanedwards.co.uk> wrote:

 Dear Luca,

 I have the original string lengths down as 823

 and 1677. Indeed it is odd how many theorbos

 there are with 8 courses on the fingerboard, it

 seems to have been a fashion started by that

 well-known authority Leopoldo Franciolini.

 Best wishes,

 David

 At 20:29 +0200 17/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote:

 > Dear David,

 > thank you!!

 > The two pictures are finally big enough to be understandable.

 > I was also curious about the original string lengths, if you

 happen to

 > know them.

 > By the way, if all chitarroni I see in museums had 6 single or

 double

 > courses (I think I remember one with seven fretted courses at the

 Cità � à �

 > del la Musique in Paris, but I'm not sure thou), WHY ON EARTH do I

 see

 > almost all chitarroni with 8x1 fretted strings??

 > All the best,

 > Luca (who really doesn't want to start ANY flame on this

 subject...)

 >  Attivato sab, 17 ago 2019 20:21:21 +0200 David Van Edwards

 > <[1][2][4]da...@vanedwards.co.uk> ha scritto 

 >

 > Dear Luca,

 > I forgot to add: is ther

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[David Van Edwards]

Dear Luca, Magnus and Howard,

There are of course several luiti attiorbati in 
Paris with 7 fingered courses but one of them 
looks a bit theorbo-ish and might be the one 
you're thinking of. It's anonymous E.25 (C228) 13 
courses 1x1, 6x2 @ 710mm + 6x2 @ 1090. Joël's 
catalogue thinks it was converted from a 
German/Italian renaissance lute into a liuto 
attiorbato in 17th century. All the real theorbos 
there have six fingered courses, either double or 
single.

The Koch instrument was interestingly probably 
made for a German/Austrian customer since 
unusually for Cocho (uniquely?) the label is 
written in German "Christoph Koch zu dem Gülden 
Adler / in Venedig Jul. 1650" So, putting it with 
the Schelle, was there a German/Austrian 
repertoire even as early as 1650 for which 7 
fingered courses would be useful?

Intriguingly there are two further pegholes, now 
plugged, one of which lies beyond the extent of 
the pegbox opening. There are rather crude 
strengthening inlays which indicate that the 
pegbox sides split at some point and these too go 
up to include the extra two pegholes. But there 
is no sign of an extended opening on the upper 
veneer. It would be nice to have an X-ray of this 
part. There is also a plugged peghole in the 
upper pegbox indicating it originally had the 
usual 8 single diapasons. But at present it is 
7x2 @ 827mm + 7x1 @ 1675

Best wishes,

David



At 18:00 +0200 18/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote:
>Dear Magnus,
>  thank you for all these interesting points. Personally, I fully
>agree (as you may have noticed from my remark about all these theorbos
>showing 8 fretted single courses...)
>I think I saw the seven course Koch theorbo in Berlin, being now nearly
>ein Berliner, I went more than a couple of times to that small, but
>interesting museum. On the other side the Schelle theorbo has been
>built in 1728, most probably then tuned in D therefore with the first
>course tuned in d. Focused on a completely different repertoire I can
>more easily understand it would have seven fretted courses: then you'll
>a fretted G and a fretted F, nicely offering you a G# and an F# on the
>first fret...
>It's also a foldeable theorbo, which makes it a really noticeable
>instrument, by the way.
>I think I remember another seven course theorbo in Paris at the Citˆ© de
>la Musique, but I do not have the catalogue with me, so couldn't check
>whether and why I remember it.
>If the 8 course "vague" started with Franciolini, that's a really nice
>hint, David!
>All the best,
>Luca
> Attivato dom, 18 ago 2019 08:59:25 +0200 magnus andersson
> ha scritto 
>
>Dear Luca, dear David, dear Howard,
>thanks for the infos!
>It is indeed interesting- checking the lautenweltadressbuch database,
>entering "G" as type and looking for instruments with more than, say,
>80 cm long petit jeu, I could only find the Berlin instrument by Koch
>and the Schelle in Nuremberg to have more than 6 courses on the
>fingerboard.
>To my knowledge:
>there is zero extant solo (French/Italian) music written for a theorbo
>with more than 6 courses on the fingerboard- ranging from Kapsperger to
>Robert de VisˆÉ Ôø‡ˆÇ Ôø‡e.
>All extant theorbo continuo (Italian and French) tutors- with the
>noteable exception of Francois Campion- use instruments with 6 courses
>on the fingerboard.
>The iconographic surviving material of plausible theorboes shows a
>dominance of 6 single fretboard stringed instruments in the 17th
>century.
>On a personal note- as a modern player- I find it much more important
>that I have an instrument which works well for the main bulk of the
>repertoire, i.e. the 17th century, than having a short F and G to fit
>those low chromatic F sharps / G sharps in.
>For the 18th century, as it is much more accompanied with addition of a
>bowed instrument (at least it, imo, ought to be more than the music of
>the early 17th century ), I feel happy to leave those few notes out or
>play them at a higher octave.
>It is not to be taken lightly, the feeling of playing Monteverdi in big
>spaces on a big theorbo with the long strings commencing from the 7th
>and downwards. The instrument tends to do most of the work itself then!
>Best,
>Magnus
>On Saturday, August 17, 2019, 10:25:28 PM GMT+2, David Van Edwards
><[1]da...@vanedwards.co.uk> wrote:
>Dear Luca,
>I have the original string lengths down as 823
>and 1677. Indeed it is odd how many theorbos
>there are with 8 courses on the fingerboard, it
>seems to have been a fashion started by that
>well-known autho

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[Yuval Dvoran]

I'm not sure if it was stated earlier, but actually Campion makes his teacher 
Maltot (who is, apart from the appearance in Campion's treatise, completely 
unknown) responsible for having invented the theorbo with 8 strings/courses on 
the fretboard, most possibly resulting from the invention of wound strings some 
years earlier.
See Campion, Addition (available online on gallica.bnf.fr) for more details.Am 
18.08.2019 18:00 schrieb Luca Manassero :
>
>    Dear Magnus, 
>  thank you for all these interesting points. Personally, I fully 
>    agree (as you may have noticed from my remark about all these theorbos 
>    showing 8 fretted single courses...) 
>    I think I saw the seven course Koch theorbo in Berlin, being now nearly 
>    ein Berliner, I went more than a couple of times to that small, but 
>    interesting museum. On the other side the Schelle theorbo has been 
>    built in 1728, most probably then tuned in D therefore with the first 
>    course tuned in d. Focused on a completely different repertoire I can 
>    more easily understand it would have seven fretted courses: then you'll 
>    a fretted G and a fretted F, nicely offering you a G# and an F# on the 
>    first fret... 
>    It's also a foldeable theorbo, which makes it a really noticeable 
>    instrument, by the way. 
>    I think I remember another seven course theorbo in Paris at the Cit�� de 
>    la Musique, but I do not have the catalogue with me, so couldn't check 
>    whether and why I remember it. 
>    If the 8 course "vague" started with Franciolini, that's a really nice 
>    hint, David! 
>    All the best, 
>    Luca 
>     Attivato dom, 18 ago 2019 08:59:25 +0200 magnus andersson 
>     ha scritto  
>
>    Dear Luca, dear David, dear Howard, 
>    thanks for the infos! 
>    It is indeed interesting- checking the lautenweltadressbuch database, 
>    entering "G" as type and looking for instruments with more than, say, 
>    80 cm long petit jeu, I could only find the Berlin instrument by Koch 
>    and the Schelle in Nuremberg to have more than 6 courses on the 
>    fingerboard. 
>    To my knowledge: 
>    there is zero extant solo (French/Italian) music written for a theorbo 
>    with more than 6 courses on the fingerboard- ranging from Kapsperger to 
>    Robert de Vis�� � ���e. 
>    All extant theorbo continuo (Italian and French) tutors- with the 
>    noteable exception of Francois Campion- use instruments with 6 courses 
>    on the fingerboard. 
>    The iconographic surviving material of plausible theorboes shows a 
>    dominance of 6 single fretboard stringed instruments in the 17th 
>    century. 
>    On a personal note- as a modern player- I find it much more important 
>    that I have an instrument which works well for the main bulk of the 
>    repertoire, i.e. the 17th century, than having a short F and G to fit 
>    those low chromatic F sharps / G sharps in. 
>    For the 18th century, as it is much more accompanied with addition of a 
>    bowed instrument (at least it, imo, ought to be more than the music of 
>    the early 17th century ), I feel happy to leave those few notes out or 
>    play them at a higher octave. 
>    It is not to be taken lightly, the feeling of playing Monteverdi in big 
>    spaces on a big theorbo with the long strings commencing from the 7th 
>    and downwards. The instrument tends to do most of the work itself then! 
>    Best, 
>    Magnus 
>    On Saturday, August 17, 2019, 10:25:28 PM GMT+2, David Van Edwards 
>    <[1]da...@vanedwards.co.uk> wrote: 
>    Dear Luca, 
>    I have the original string lengths down as 823 
>    and 1677. Indeed it is odd how many theorbos 
>    there are with 8 courses on the fingerboard, it 
>    seems to have been a fashion started by that 
>    well-known authority Leopoldo Franciolini. 
>    Best wishes, 
>    David 
>    At 20:29 +0200 17/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote: 
>    > Dear David, 
>    > thank you!! 
>    > The two pictures are finally big enough to be understandable. 
>    > I was also curious about the original string lengths, if you 
>    happen to 
>    > know them. 
>    > By the way, if all chitarroni I see in museums had 6 single or 
>    double 
>    > courses (I think I remember one with seven fretted courses at the 
>    Cit�� ��� �� ��� 
>    > del la Musique in Paris, but I'm not sure thou), WHY ON EARTH do I 
>    see 
>    > almost all chitarroni with 8x1 fretted strings?? 
>    > All the best, 
>    > Luca (who really doesn't want to start ANY flame on this 
>    subject...) 
>    >  Attivato sab, 17 ago 2019 20:21:21 +0200 David Van Edwards 
>    > <[1][2]da...

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[Luca Manassero]

   Dear Magnus,
 thank you for all these interesting points. Personally, I fully
   agree (as you may have noticed from my remark about all these theorbos
   showing 8 fretted single courses...)
   I think I saw the seven course Koch theorbo in Berlin, being now nearly
   ein Berliner, I went more than a couple of times to that small, but
   interesting museum. On the other side the Schelle theorbo has been
   built in 1728, most probably then tuned in D therefore with the first
   course tuned in d. Focused on a completely different repertoire I can
   more easily understand it would have seven fretted courses: then you'll
   a fretted G and a fretted F, nicely offering you a G# and an F# on the
   first fret...
   It's also a foldeable theorbo, which makes it a really noticeable
   instrument, by the way.
   I think I remember another seven course theorbo in Paris at the Cité de
   la Musique, but I do not have the catalogue with me, so couldn't check
   whether and why I remember it.
   If the 8 course "vague" started with Franciolini, that's a really nice
   hint, David!
   All the best,
   Luca
    Attivato dom, 18 ago 2019 08:59:25 +0200 magnus andersson
ha scritto 

   Dear Luca, dear David, dear Howard,
   thanks for the infos!
   It is indeed interesting- checking the lautenweltadressbuch database,
   entering "G" as type and looking for instruments with more than, say,
   80 cm long petit jeu, I could only find the Berlin instrument by Koch
   and the Schelle in Nuremberg to have more than 6 courses on the
   fingerboard.
   To my knowledge:
   there is zero extant solo (French/Italian) music written for a theorbo
   with more than 6 courses on the fingerboard- ranging from Kapsperger to
   Robert de Visà � �e.
   All extant theorbo continuo (Italian and French) tutors- with the
   noteable exception of Francois Campion- use instruments with 6 courses
   on the fingerboard.
   The iconographic surviving material of plausible theorboes shows a
   dominance of 6 single fretboard stringed instruments in the 17th
   century.
   On a personal note- as a modern player- I find it much more important
   that I have an instrument which works well for the main bulk of the
   repertoire, i.e. the 17th century, than having a short F and G to fit
   those low chromatic F sharps / G sharps in.
   For the 18th century, as it is much more accompanied with addition of a
   bowed instrument (at least it, imo, ought to be more than the music of
   the early 17th century ), I feel happy to leave those few notes out or
   play them at a higher octave.
   It is not to be taken lightly, the feeling of playing Monteverdi in big
   spaces on a big theorbo with the long strings commencing from the 7th
   and downwards. The instrument tends to do most of the work itself then!
   Best,
   Magnus
   On Saturday, August 17, 2019, 10:25:28 PM GMT+2, David Van Edwards
   <[1]da...@vanedwards.co.uk> wrote:
   Dear Luca,
   I have the original string lengths down as 823
   and 1677. Indeed it is odd how many theorbos
   there are with 8 courses on the fingerboard, it
   seems to have been a fashion started by that
   well-known authority Leopoldo Franciolini.
   Best wishes,
   David
   At 20:29 +0200 17/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote:
   > Dear David,
   > thank you!!
   > The two pictures are finally big enough to be understandable.
   > I was also curious about the original string lengths, if you
   happen to
   > know them.
   > By the way, if all chitarroni I see in museums had 6 single or
   double
   > courses (I think I remember one with seven fretted courses at the
   Cità �  �
   > del la Musique in Paris, but I'm not sure thou), WHY ON EARTH do I
   see
   > almost all chitarroni with 8x1 fretted strings??
   > All the best,
   > Luca (who really doesn't want to start ANY flame on this
   subject...)
   >  Attivato sab, 17 ago 2019 20:21:21 +0200 David Van Edwards
   > <[1][2]da...@vanedwards.co.uk> ha scritto 
   >
   > Dear Luca,
   > I forgot to add: is there any other info you'd like? I have a few
   > more photos. It is indeed on display in Rome at the Museo
   Nazionale
   > degli Strumenti Musicali, and the catalogue number is 976. Luisa
   > Cervelli: La Galleria Armonica, Catalogo del Museo degli strumenti
   > musicali di Roma, Roma 1994, pp. 297-299 from where I got my
   photos.
   > Best wishes,
   > David
   > At 18:34 +0200 17/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote:
   > > Dear common wisdom,
   > > seven years ago I had the opportunity to buy a theorbo from a
   German
   > > friend: it had been built by Hendrik Hasenfuss in 1993 and has a
   very
   > > nice bowl made of 35 ribs of yew.
   > > Looking for the model, I think I came to a theorbo built by
   Pietro
   > > Raillich in Padova, possibly around 1655 (strung as 6x1, 8x2).

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[magnus andersson]

   Dear Luca, dear David, dear Howard,
   thanks for the infos!
   It is indeed interesting- checking the lautenweltadressbuch database,
   entering "G" as type and looking for instruments with more than, say,
   80 cm long petit jeu, I could only find the Berlin instrument by Koch
   and the Schelle in Nuremberg to have more than 6 courses on the
   fingerboard.
   To my knowledge:
   there is zero extant solo (French/Italian) music written for a theorbo
   with more than 6 courses on the fingerboard- ranging from Kapsperger to
   Robert de Visée.
   All extant theorbo continuo (Italian and French) tutors- with the
   noteable exception of Francois Campion- use instruments with 6 courses
   on the fingerboard.
   The iconographic surviving material of plausible theorboes shows a
   dominance of 6 single fretboard stringed instruments in the 17th
   century.
   On a personal note- as a modern player- I find it much more important
   that I have an instrument which works well for the main bulk of the
   repertoire, i.e. the 17th century, than having a short F and G to fit
   those low chromatic F sharps / G sharps in.
   For the 18th century, as it is much more accompanied with addition of a
   bowed instrument (at least it, imo, ought to be more than the music of
   the early 17th century ), I feel happy to leave those few notes out or
   play them at a higher octave.
   It is not to be taken lightly, the feeling of playing Monteverdi in big
   spaces on a big theorbo  with the long strings commencing from the 7th
   and downwards. The instrument tends to do most of the work itself then!
   Best,
   Magnus

   On Saturday, August 17, 2019, 10:25:28 PM GMT+2, David Van Edwards
wrote:
   Dear Luca,
   I have the original string lengths down as 823
   and 1677. Indeed it is odd how many theorbos
   there are with 8 courses on the fingerboard, it
   seems to have been a fashion started by that
   well-known authority Leopoldo Franciolini.
   Best wishes,
   David
   At 20:29 +0200 17/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote:
   >Dear David,
   >  thank you!!
   >The two pictures are finally big enough to be understandable.
   >I was also curious about the original string lengths, if you
   happen to
   >know them.
   >By the way, if all chitarroni I see in museums had 6 single or
   double
   >courses (I think I remember one with seven fretted courses at the
   CitË ©
   >del la Musique in Paris, but I'm not sure thou), WHY ON EARTH do I
   see
   >almost all chitarroni with 8x1 fretted strings??
   >All the best,
   >Luca (who really doesn't want to start ANY flame on this
   subject...)
   > Attivato sab, 17 ago 2019 20:21:21 +0200 David Van Edwards
   ><[1]da...@vanedwards.co.uk> ha scritto 
   >
   >Dear Luca,
   >I forgot to add: is there any other info you'd like? I have a few
   >more photos. It is indeed on display in Rome at the Museo
   Nazionale
   >degli Strumenti Musicali, and the catalogue number is 976. Luisa
   >Cervelli: La Galleria Armonica, Catalogo del Museo degli strumenti
   >musicali di Roma, Roma 1994, pp. 297-299 from where I got my
   photos.
   >Best wishes,
   >David
   >At 18:34 +0200 17/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote:
   >    > Dear common wisdom,
   >> seven years ago I had the opportunity to buy a theorbo from a
   German
   >> friend: it had been built by Hendrik Hasenfuss in 1993 and has a
   very
   >> nice bowl made of 35 ribs of yew.
   >> Looking for the model, I think I came to a theorbo built by
   Pietro
   >> Raillich in Padova, possibly around 1655 (strung as 6x1, 8x2).
   The
   >> original seems to be on display in Rome at the Museo Nazionale
   degli
   >> Strumenti Musicali, where it is (erroneously?) indicated as
   being
   >built
   >> in 1702, which sounds odd to me, as of the nearly 47 years
   Pietro
   >> Raillich spent in Padova, that is the year of his death...
   >> The only picture displayed on Museum's site is so small to be
   almost
   >> unreadable.
   >> Does anybody have readable pictures of the 1655 instrument
   and/or
   >some
   >> more infos? Mine measures 82.5cm and 167cm, which would match
   the
   >> Raillich's model.
   >> Thank you in advance,
   >> Luca
   >>
   >> --
   >>
   >>
   >>To get on or off this list see list information at
   >>[1][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >--
   >The Smokehouse,
   >6 Whitwell Road,
   >Norwich, NR1 4HB
   >England.
   >Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
   >Website: [2][3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
   >
   >

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[howard posner]

> On Aug 17, 2019, at 11:29 AM, Luca Manassero  wrote:
> 
>  if all chitarroni I see in museums had 6 single or double
>   courses (I think I remember one with seven fretted courses at the Cité
>   del la Musique in Paris, but I'm not sure thou), WHY ON EARTH do I see
>   almost all chitarroni with 8x1 fretted strings??

A modern theorbo player plays a wider variety of music than an Italian player 
in 1660 or a French player in 1700 would have played, and thus needs either to 
haul more than one theorbo around or have an instrument configured to be as 
versatile as possible. It’s similar to the reason so many harpsichords are made 
now with keyboards that transpose a semitone, something that wouldn’t have been 
useful in 1700.

There are more theorbo-sized instruments than you think that have seven or 
eight courses on the fingerboard.  I think the LSA is still hosting Klaus 
Martius’ Lautenweltadressbuch, which sounds in English like a means of sending 
letters to lutes but is actually a database of extant historical instruments.  
You can hours of fun going through it if you’re curious:

https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/index.html#Lautenweltadressbuch



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[David Van Edwards]

Dear Luca,

I have the original string lengths down as 823 
and 1677. Indeed it is odd how many theorbos 
there are with 8 courses on the fingerboard, it 
seems to have been a fashion started by that 
well-known authority Leopoldo Franciolini.


Best wishes,

David

At 20:29 +0200 17/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote:

   Dear David,
 thank you!!
   The two pictures are finally big enough to be understandable.
   I was also curious about the original string lengths, if you happen to
   know them.
   By the way, if all chitarroni I see in museums had 6 single or double
   courses (I think I remember one with seven fretted courses at the Citˆ©
   del la Musique in Paris, but I'm not sure thou), WHY ON EARTH do I see
   almost all chitarroni with 8x1 fretted strings??
   All the best,
   Luca (who really doesn't want to start ANY flame on this subject...)
    Attivato sab, 17 ago 2019 20:21:21 +0200 David Van Edwards
ha scritto 

   Dear Luca,
   I forgot to add: is there any other info you'd like? I have a few
   more photos. It is indeed on display in Rome at the Museo Nazionale
   degli Strumenti Musicali, and the catalogue number is 976. Luisa
   Cervelli: La Galleria Armonica, Catalogo del Museo degli strumenti
   musicali di Roma, Roma 1994, pp. 297-299 from where I got my photos.
   Best wishes,
   David
   At 18:34 +0200 17/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote:
   > Dear common wisdom,
   > seven years ago I had the opportunity to buy a theorbo from a German
   > friend: it had been built by Hendrik Hasenfuss in 1993 and has a very
   > nice bowl made of 35 ribs of yew.
   > Looking for the model, I think I came to a theorbo built by Pietro
   > Raillich in Padova, possibly around 1655 (strung as 6x1, 8x2). The
   > original seems to be on display in Rome at the Museo Nazionale degli
   > Strumenti Musicali, where it is (erroneously?) indicated as being
   built
   > in 1702, which sounds odd to me, as of the nearly 47 years Pietro
   > Raillich spent in Padova, that is the year of his death...
   > The only picture displayed on Museum's site is so small to be almost
   > unreadable.
   > Does anybody have readable pictures of the 1655 instrument and/or
   some
   > more infos? Mine measures 82.5cm and 167cm, which would match the
   > Raillich's model.
   > Thank you in advance,
   > Luca
   >
   > --
   >
   >
   >To get on or off this list see list information at
   >[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
   The Smokehouse,
   6 Whitwell Road,
   Norwich, NR1 4HB
   England.
   Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
   Website: [2]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   2. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/



--
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.


Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[Davide Rebuffa]

Dear Luca,

That theorbo could likely had been built by Pietro’s son Giovanni (Zuane)
 
Giovanni Railich, son of Pietro, almost never used his own fire mark.  
Apart from a colascione (Collezione Correr, Venice) signed Giovanni Railich / 
Lautaro in Padova, 
all the instruments built in their workshop have the same fire brand of Pietro 
Railich P+R.

Matthias Klotz, a pupil of Pietro, worked there for many years, 
the other luthiers active in the workshop, at least  between 1678 and 1702, 
were Ventura Mancini and Bartholomeo Mauro.

Best wishes,

Davide







> Il giorno 17 ago 2019, alle ore 18:34, Luca Manassero  ha 
> scritto:
> 
>   Dear common wisdom,
>   seven years ago I had the opportunity to buy a theorbo from a German
>   friend: it had been built by Hendrik Hasenfuss in 1993 and has a very
>   nice bowl made of 35 ribs of yew.
>   Looking for the model, I think I came to a theorbo built by Pietro
>   Raillich in Padova, possibly around 1655 (strung as 6x1, 8x2). The
>   original seems to be on display in Rome at the Museo Nazionale degli
>   Strumenti Musicali, where it is (erroneously?) indicated as being built
>   in 1702, which sounds odd to me, as of the nearly 47 years Pietro
>   Raillich spent in Padova, that is the year of his death...
>   The only picture displayed on Museum's site is so small to be almost
>   unreadable.
>   Does anybody have readable pictures of the 1655 instrument and/or some
>   more infos? Mine measures 82.5cm and 167cm, which would match the
>   Raillich's model.
>   Thank you in advance,
>   Luca
> 
>   --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[Luca Manassero]

   Dear David,
 thank you!!
   The two pictures are finally big enough to be understandable.
   I was also curious about the original string lengths, if you happen to
   know them.
   By the way, if all chitarroni I see in museums had 6 single or double
   courses (I think I remember one with seven fretted courses at the Cité
   del la Musique in Paris, but I'm not sure thou), WHY ON EARTH do I see
   almost all chitarroni with 8x1 fretted strings??
   All the best,
   Luca (who really doesn't want to start ANY flame on this subject...)
    Attivato sab, 17 ago 2019 20:21:21 +0200 David Van Edwards
ha scritto 

   Dear Luca,
   I forgot to add: is there any other info you'd like? I have a few
   more photos. It is indeed on display in Rome at the Museo Nazionale
   degli Strumenti Musicali, and the catalogue number is 976. Luisa
   Cervelli: La Galleria Armonica, Catalogo del Museo degli strumenti
   musicali di Roma, Roma 1994, pp. 297-299 from where I got my photos.
   Best wishes,
   David
   At 18:34 +0200 17/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote:
   > Dear common wisdom,
   > seven years ago I had the opportunity to buy a theorbo from a German
   > friend: it had been built by Hendrik Hasenfuss in 1993 and has a very
   > nice bowl made of 35 ribs of yew.
   > Looking for the model, I think I came to a theorbo built by Pietro
   > Raillich in Padova, possibly around 1655 (strung as 6x1, 8x2). The
   > original seems to be on display in Rome at the Museo Nazionale degli
   > Strumenti Musicali, where it is (erroneously?) indicated as being
   built
   > in 1702, which sounds odd to me, as of the nearly 47 years Pietro
   > Raillich spent in Padova, that is the year of his death...
   > The only picture displayed on Museum's site is so small to be almost
   > unreadable.
   > Does anybody have readable pictures of the 1655 instrument and/or
   some
   > more infos? Mine measures 82.5cm and 167cm, which would match the
   > Raillich's model.
   > Thank you in advance,
   > Luca
   >
   > --
   >
   >
   >To get on or off this list see list information at
   >[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
   The Smokehouse,
   6 Whitwell Road,
   Norwich, NR1 4HB
   England.
   Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
   Website: [2]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   2. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[David Van Edwards]

Dear Luca,

I forgot to add: is there any other info you'd like? I have a few 
more photos. It is indeed on display in Rome at the Museo Nazionale 
degli Strumenti Musicali, and the catalogue number is 976. Luisa 
Cervelli: La Galleria Armonica, Catalogo del Museo degli strumenti 
musicali di Roma, Roma 1994, pp. 297-299 from where I got my photos.


Best wishes,

David



At 18:34 +0200 17/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote:

   Dear common wisdom,
   seven years ago I had the opportunity to buy a theorbo from a German
   friend: it had been built by Hendrik Hasenfuss in 1993 and has a very
   nice bowl made of 35 ribs of yew.
   Looking for the model, I think I came to a theorbo built by Pietro
   Raillich in Padova, possibly around 1655 (strung as 6x1, 8x2). The
   original seems to be on display in Rome at the Museo Nazionale degli
   Strumenti Musicali, where it is (erroneously?) indicated as being built
   in 1702, which sounds odd to me, as of the nearly 47 years Pietro
   Raillich spent in Padova, that is the year of his death...
   The only picture displayed on Museum's site is so small to be almost
   unreadable.
   Does anybody have readable pictures of the 1655 instrument and/or some
   more infos? Mine measures 82.5cm and 167cm, which would match the
   Raillich's model.
   Thank you in advance,
   Luca

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



--
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.


Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[David Van Edwards]

Dear Luca,

Here you are! A very nice looking theorbo. Pohlmann says date is 1655
and Toffolo says it's c.1640 (St. Toffolo: Antichi Strumenti
Veneziani. Venezia 1987, pp. 57, 221) who knows where the 1702 date
comes from in the LSA list, but as there's no label it's all a guess.

Best wishes,

David

At 18:34 +0200 17/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote:
>Dear common wisdom,
>seven years ago I had the opportunity to buy a theorbo from a German
>friend: it had been built by Hendrik Hasenfuss in 1993 and has a very
>nice bowl made of 35 ribs of yew.
>Looking for the model, I think I came to a theorbo built by Pietro
>Raillich in Padova, possibly around 1655 (strung as 6x1, 8x2). The
>original seems to be on display in Rome at the Museo Nazionale degli
>Strumenti Musicali, where it is (erroneously?) indicated as being built
>in 1702, which sounds odd to me, as of the nearly 47 years Pietro
>Raillich spent in Padova, that is the year of his death...
>The only picture displayed on Museum's site is so small to be almost
>unreadable.
>Does anybody have readable pictures of the 1655 instrument and/or some
>more infos? Mine measures 82.5cm and 167cm, which would match the
>Raillich's model.
>Thank you in advance,
>Luca
>
>--
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

--

[LUTE] Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[Luca Manassero]

   Dear common wisdom,
   seven years ago I had the opportunity to buy a theorbo from a German
   friend: it had been built by Hendrik Hasenfuss in 1993 and has a very
   nice bowl made of 35 ribs of yew.
   Looking for the model, I think I came to a theorbo built by Pietro
   Raillich in Padova, possibly around 1655 (strung as 6x1, 8x2). The
   original seems to be on display in Rome at the Museo Nazionale degli
   Strumenti Musicali, where it is (erroneously?) indicated as being built
   in 1702, which sounds odd to me, as of the nearly 47 years Pietro
   Raillich spent in Padova, that is the year of his death...
   The only picture displayed on Museum's site is so small to be almost
   unreadable.
   Does anybody have readable pictures of the 1655 instrument and/or some
   more infos? Mine measures 82.5cm and 167cm, which would match the
   Raillich's model.
   Thank you in advance,
   Luca

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: New World lute/theorbo, etc.

[David Van Edwards]

Almost exactly the same reason that Lord Herbert of Cherbury gave!

"my learning of Musicke was for this end that I might entertaine my
selfe at home and together refresh my mynde after my studyes
to which I was exceedingly inclined, and that I might not neede
the company of younge men in whome I observed in those
tymes much ill example and debauch."

He of the Herbert of Cherbury lute book, shortly 
to be published in facsimile by the Lute Society.


David


At 19:17 -0400 30/7/19, Christopher Stetson wrote:

   "To avoid having to travel in bad company to find entertainment, he
   learned to play the lute so he could pass the time alone, when he
   couldn't find other friends."
   Pretty much sums it up.
   Best, and keep playing,
   Chris.

   On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 3:27 PM <[1]jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 Not necessarily built in New France, but used in New France in
 17th-18th C. I'm looking for reported lute activity in the New World
 colonial era.
 jeff
 From: Tristan von Neumann
 Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 12:34 PM
 To: [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: New World lute/theorbo, etc.
 Just to make sure I understood this:
 You mean lutes built in New France, not imported instruments?
 :)
 T*
 On 30.07.19 19:31, [3]jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 > A questionˆÉ¬¢ˆ¢¬¨"mostly likely for 
luters north of the borderˆÉ¬¢ˆ¢¬¨"

 >
 > Do we have any documentary evidence (letters, wills, inventories,
 etc.) of lutes or theorboes in New France (Canada and Western US) in
 16th-17th -18thcenturies? Are there any surviving instruments from
 the period in Canadian museums or collections?
 >
 > A number of years ago, historian colleague showed me a reference
 to a theorbo in the French Caribbean in a (I think) late 17th-c
 text. IˆÉ¬¢ˆ¢¬¨ˆ¢¬¢ve misplaced the reference and am trying to dig it up
 again. (If anyone out there knows this source, IˆÉ¬¢ˆ¢¬¨ˆ¢¬¢d appreciate
 your jogging my memory.)
 >
 > There are, of course, references to the guitar in 16th-c Spanish
 and French colonies but I donˆÉ¬¢ˆ¢¬¨ˆ¢¬¢t 
recall ever seeing lutes listed

 in any of those documents.
 >
 > Regionally, a local historian shared with me a reference to a
 guitar in the early 19th-c will/inventory of a French settler in
 Ste. Genevieve MO. I donˆÉ¬¢ˆ¢¬¨ˆ¢¬¢t think there is any description of
 the instrument, so no telling if it was a French baroque guitar, a
 European transitional guitar or a New World instrument.
 >
 > Thanks in advance for any pertinent ideas or suggestions.
 >
 > See ya,
 >
 > jeff
 >
 >
 > --
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 > [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 --

   --

References

   1. mailto:jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net
   2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



--
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.


Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

[LUTE] Re: New World lute/theorbo, etc.

[Christopher Stetson]

   "To avoid having to travel in bad company to find entertainment, he
   learned to play the lute so he could pass the time alone, when he
   couldn't find other friends."
   Pretty much sums it up.
   Best, and keep playing,
   Chris.

   On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 3:27 PM <[1]jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 Not necessarily built in New France, but used in New France in
 17th-18th C. I'm looking for reported lute activity in the New World
 colonial era.
 jeff
 From: Tristan von Neumann
 Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 12:34 PM
 To: [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: New World lute/theorbo, etc.
 Just to make sure I understood this:
 You mean lutes built in New France, not imported instruments?
 :)
 T*
 On 30.07.19 19:31, [3]jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 > A questionââ¬"mostly likely for luters north of the borderââ¬"
 >
 > Do we have any documentary evidence (letters, wills, inventories,
 etc.) of lutes or theorboes in New France (Canada and Western US) in
 16th-17th -18thcenturies? Are there any surviving instruments from
 the period in Canadian museums or collections?
 >
 > A number of years ago, historian colleague showed me a reference
 to a theorbo in the French Caribbean in a (I think) late 17th-c
 text. Iââ¬â¢ve misplaced the reference and am trying to dig it up
 again. (If anyone out there knows this source, Iââ¬â¢d appreciate
 your jogging my memory.)
 >
 > There are, of course, references to the guitar in 16th-c Spanish
 and French colonies but I donââ¬â¢t recall ever seeing lutes listed
 in any of those documents.
 >
 > Regionally, a local historian shared with me a reference to a
 guitar in the early 19th-c will/inventory of a French settler in
 Ste. Genevieve MO. I donââ¬â¢t think there is any description of
 the instrument, so no telling if it was a French baroque guitar, a
 European transitional guitar or a New World instrument.
 >
 > Thanks in advance for any pertinent ideas or suggestions.
 >
 > See ya,
 >
 > jeff
 >
 >
 > --
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 > [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 --

   --

References

   1. mailto:jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net
   2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: New World lute/theorbo, etc.

[jjnoonan]

Not necessarily built in New France, but used in New France in 17th-18th C. 
I’m looking for reported lute activity in the New World colonial era.

jeff

From: Tristan von Neumann
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 12:34 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: New World lute/theorbo, etc.

Just to make sure I understood this:

You mean lutes built in New France, not imported instruments?


:)
T*


On 30.07.19 19:31, jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> A question—mostly likely for luters north of the border—
>
> Do we have any documentary evidence (letters, wills, inventories, etc.) of 
> lutes or theorboes in New France (Canada and Western US) in 16th-17th 
> -18thcenturies? Are there any surviving instruments from the period in 
> Canadian museums or collections?
>
> A number of years ago, historian colleague showed me a reference to a theorbo 
> in the French Caribbean in a (I think) late 17th-c text. I’ve 
> misplaced the reference and am trying to dig it up again. (If anyone out 
> there knows this source, I’d appreciate your jogging my memory.)
>
> There are, of course, references to the guitar in 16th-c Spanish and French 
> colonies but I don’t recall ever seeing lutes listed in any of those 
> documents.
>
> Regionally, a local historian shared with me a reference to a guitar in the 
> early 19th-c will/inventory of a French settler in Ste. Genevieve MO. I 
> don’t think there is any description of the instrument, so no telling 
> if it was a French baroque guitar, a European transitional guitar or a New 
> World instrument.
>
> Thanks in advance for any pertinent ideas or suggestions.
>
> See ya,
>
> jeff
>
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>




--

[LUTE] Re: New World lute/theorbo, etc.

[jjnoonan]

Excellent—thanks for the reference—I’ll get on it.

jeff

From: Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 12:52 PM
To: jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: New World lute/theorbo, etc.

   there was a study done a while back by Robert Derome on the lute in New
   France
   [1]http://rd.uqam.ca/Luth/index.html

   Le  mar. 30 juil. 2019 Ã   13:37, <[2]jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net> a 
écrit
:

 A questionâmostly likely for luters north of the borderâ
 Do we have any documentary evidence (letters, wills, inventories,
 etc.) of lutes or theorboes in New France (Canada and Western US) in
 16th-17th -18thcenturies? Are there any surviving instruments from
 the period in Canadian museums or collections?
 A number of years ago, historian colleague showed me a reference to
 a theorbo in the French Caribbean in a (I think) late 17th-c text.
 I've misplaced the reference and am trying to dig it up again. (If
 anyone out there knows this source, I'd appreciate your jogging my
 memory.)
 There are, of course, references to the guitar in 16th-c Spanish and
 French colonies but I don't recall ever seeing lutes listed in any
 of those documents.
 Regionally, a local historian shared with me a reference to a guitar
 in the early 19th-c will/inventory of a French settler in Ste.
 Genevieve MO. I don't think there is any description of the
 instrument, so no telling if it was a French baroque guitar, a
 European transitional guitar or a New World instrument.
 Thanks in advance for any pertinent ideas or suggestions.
 See ya,
 jeff
 --
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://rd.uqam.ca/Luth/index.html
   2. mailto:jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



--

[LUTE] Re: New World lute/theorbo, etc.

[Bruno Cognyl-Fournier]

   there was a study done a while back by Robert Derome on the lute in New
   France
   [1]http://rd.uqam.ca/Luth/index.html

   Le  mar. 30 juil. 2019 à  13:37, <[2]jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net> a écrit
:

 A questionâmostly likely for luters north of the borderâ
 Do we have any documentary evidence (letters, wills, inventories,
 etc.) of lutes or theorboes in New France (Canada and Western US) in
 16th-17th -18thcenturies? Are there any surviving instruments from
 the period in Canadian museums or collections?
 A number of years ago, historian colleague showed me a reference to
 a theorbo in the French Caribbean in a (I think) late 17th-c text.
 I've misplaced the reference and am trying to dig it up again. (If
 anyone out there knows this source, I'd appreciate your jogging my
 memory.)
 There are, of course, references to the guitar in 16th-c Spanish and
 French colonies but I don't recall ever seeing lutes listed in any
 of those documents.
 Regionally, a local historian shared with me a reference to a guitar
 in the early 19th-c will/inventory of a French settler in Ste.
 Genevieve MO. I don't think there is any description of the
 instrument, so no telling if it was a French baroque guitar, a
 European transitional guitar or a New World instrument.
 Thanks in advance for any pertinent ideas or suggestions.
 See ya,
 jeff
 --
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://rd.uqam.ca/Luth/index.html
   2. mailto:jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: New World lute/theorbo, etc.

[Tristan von Neumann]

Just to make sure I understood this:

You mean lutes built in New France, not imported instruments?


:)
T*


On 30.07.19 19:31, jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

A question—mostly likely for luters north of the border—

Do we have any documentary evidence (letters, wills, inventories, etc.) of 
lutes or theorboes in New France (Canada and Western US) in 16th-17th 
-18thcenturies? Are there any surviving instruments from the period in Canadian 
museums or collections?

A number of years ago, historian colleague showed me a reference to a theorbo 
in the French Caribbean in a (I think) late 17th-c text. I’ve misplaced the 
reference and am trying to dig it up again. (If anyone out there knows this 
source, I’d appreciate your jogging my memory.)

There are, of course, references to the guitar in 16th-c Spanish and French 
colonies but I don’t recall ever seeing lutes listed in any of those 
documents.

Regionally, a local historian shared with me a reference to a guitar in the 
early 19th-c will/inventory of a French settler in Ste. Genevieve MO. I don’t 
think there is any description of the instrument, so no telling if it was a 
French baroque guitar, a European transitional guitar or a New World instrument.

Thanks in advance for any pertinent ideas or suggestions.

See ya,

jeff


--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] New World lute/theorbo, etc.

[jjnoonan]

A question—mostly likely for luters north of the border—

Do we have any documentary evidence (letters, wills, inventories, etc.) of 
lutes or theorboes in New France (Canada and Western US) in 16th-17th 
-18thcenturies? Are there any surviving instruments from the period in Canadian 
museums or collections?

A number of years ago, historian colleague showed me a reference to a theorbo 
in the French Caribbean in a (I think) late 17th-c text. I’ve misplaced the 
reference and am trying to dig it up again. (If anyone out there knows this 
source, I’d appreciate your jogging my memory.)

There are, of course, references to the guitar in 16th-c Spanish and French 
colonies but I don’t recall ever seeing lutes listed in any of those 
documents.

Regionally, a local historian shared with me a reference to a guitar in the 
early 19th-c will/inventory of a French settler in Ste. Genevieve MO. I don’t 
think there is any description of the instrument, so no telling if it was a 
French baroque guitar, a European transitional guitar or a New World instrument.

Thanks in advance for any pertinent ideas or suggestions.

See ya,

jeff


--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vincent Dumestre's theorbo?

[Mathias Rösel]

Dear Éric,
The issue with these instruments d'après tableaux de Watteau offered under the 
name "théorbe de pièces ou angélique" is that they have eight strings on their 
fretboards. The instrument in Watteau's La Finette has even less, viz. six 
strings.
Surviving music for the angélique requires ten strings on the fretboard so that 
the 9th and 10th strings may be fretted (1st fret on the 10th [C#], and 4th 
fret on the 9th [F#], strings, frequently).
Both instruments built d'après tableaux de Watteau may pass as true théorbes 
des pieces, but not as angéliques IMHO.
Mathias



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
hello,
http://www.anselmus.ch/fr/luths/luth_general.htm

scroll down.

Yours
Éric Bellocq

-- 
Linux ? avec Ubuntu-Mate c'est si pas compliqué !




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[LUTE] Re: Vincent Dumestre's theorbo?

[Mathias Rösel]

This portrait shows him with a short, single strung, lutelike theorbo:
https://youtu.be/WaRuAuE_x1o 
Mathias



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag 
von Tim Miller
Gesendet: Samstag, 11. Mai 2019 20:42
An: Lutelist
Betreff: [LUTE] Vincent Dumestre's theorbo?

Hi all,

Does anyone know anything about Vincent Dumestre’s current theorbo? Like a 
lot of French players (Monteilhet, Belloq, etc.), he’s been using smaller 
theorbos for a long time, but this one seems to have a flat back and more 
guitar-like sides. You can see it clearly in some pics on Poème Harmonique’s 
Facebook page: 
https://www.facebook.com/LePoemeHarmoniqueVincentDumestre/posts/2180175768725297
 
<https://www.facebook.com/LePoemeHarmoniqueVincentDumestre/posts/2180175768725297>

I’m curious about the maker, and if Vincent has discussed it anywhere. 

Cheers,
Tim
--

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Vincent Dumestre's theorbo?

[Tim Miller]

Hi all,

Does anyone know anything about Vincent Dumestre’s current theorbo? Like a 
lot of French players (Monteilhet, Belloq, etc.), he’s been using smaller 
theorbos for a long time, but this one seems to have a flat back and more 
guitar-like sides. You can see it clearly in some pics on Poème Harmonique’s 
Facebook page: 
https://www.facebook.com/LePoemeHarmoniqueVincentDumestre/posts/2180175768725297
 
<https://www.facebook.com/LePoemeHarmoniqueVincentDumestre/posts/2180175768725297>

I’m curious about the maker, and if Vincent has discussed it anywhere. 

Cheers,
Tim
--

To get on or off this list see list information at
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[LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

   The pieces are without titles in the ms but Gordon J. Callon who edited
   and studied them suggests "voluntary" as a traditional name for English
   fantasies, what they are !

   Jean-Marie

   Le 21 avr. 2019 à 16:31, Roman Turovsky <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> a
   écrit :

 From Lynda Sayce:
 "I suspect all theorbo players are subliminally aware of the heavy
 key bias in the historic repertory.
 It rears its head every time we're asked to supply a little link
 piece for a programme, always in a key
     in which no theorbo music survives…! The (original) index of the
 Vaudry de Saizenay manuscript (1699),
 which you probably know, gives a pretty good overview of the keys
 used, and their relative importance
 in the repertory. It assumes an instrument in A. The situation with
 the Italian sources is somewhat similar
 (though this is only a casual ‘off the top of my head' mental
 survey): again assuming A tuning, you'll find
 a lot in G major and G minor, D major and D minor. Surprisingly
 little in A major or A minor, which you
 would expect to be much-used keys. A reasonable amount in C major
 and F major.
 Other keys are much less common."

   RT

   On 4/20/2019 4:22 AM, Jean-Marie POIRIER wrote:

 John Wilson has also Voluntaries in these keys !


 Jean-Marie





 > Message du 19/04/19 23:02
 > De : "magnus andersson" [2]
 > A : "Roman Turovsky" [3], "Lute Net"
 [4]
 > Copie à :
 > Objet : [LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire
 >
 > Dear Roman,
 >
 > Not true :)
 > On the top of my head:
 > Bartolotti in A- Wn 17706 ( e minor)
 > De Vis����e in Saizenay ( b minor and e minor)
 > [1]Skickat fr����n Yahoo Mail f����r iPhone
 >
 > Den fredag, april 19, 2019, 10:12 em, skrev Roman Turovsky
 > [5]:
 >
 > A question to the collective wisdom:
 >
 > Someone mentioned to me that there are practically no surviving
 solo
 >
 > theorbo pieces in e-minor or b-minor.
 >
 > Is that true?
 >
 > RT
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 >
 > [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 > --
 >
 > References
 >
 > 1. [7]https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
 > 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 >

   --

References

   1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

   No, for English theorbo !

   Le 21 avr. 2019 à 16:31, Roman Turovsky <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> a
   écrit :

 From Lynda Sayce:
 "I suspect all theorbo players are subliminally aware of the heavy
 key bias in the historic repertory.
 It rears its head every time we're asked to supply a little link
 piece for a programme, always in a key
 in which no theorbo music survives…! The (original) index of the
 Vaudry de Saizenay manuscript (1699),
 which you probably know, gives a pretty good overview of the keys
 used, and their relative importance
 in the repertory. It assumes an instrument in A. The situation with
 the Italian sources is somewhat similar
 (though this is only a casual ‘off the top of my head' mental
 survey): again assuming A tuning, you'll find
 a lot in G major and G minor, D major and D minor. Surprisingly
 little in A major or A minor, which you
 would expect to be much-used keys. A reasonable amount in C major
 and F major.
 Other keys are much less common."

   RT

   On 4/20/2019 4:22 AM, Jean-Marie POIRIER wrote:

 John Wilson has also Voluntaries in these keys !


 Jean-Marie





 > Message du 19/04/19 23:02
 > De : "magnus andersson" [2]
 > A : "Roman Turovsky" [3], "Lute Net"
 [4]
 > Copie à :
 > Objet : [LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire
 >
 > Dear Roman,
 >
 > Not true :)
 > On the top of my head:
 > Bartolotti in A- Wn 17706 ( e minor)
 > De Vis����e in Saizenay ( b minor and e minor)
 > [1]Skickat fr����n Yahoo Mail f����r iPhone
 >
 > Den fredag, april 19, 2019, 10:12 em, skrev Roman Turovsky
 > [5]:
 >
 > A question to the collective wisdom:
     >
 > Someone mentioned to me that there are practically no surviving
 solo
 >
 > theorbo pieces in e-minor or b-minor.
 >
 > Is that true?
 >
 > RT
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 >
 > [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 > --
 >
 > References
 >
 > 1. [7]https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
 > 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 >

   --

References

   1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire

[Roman Turovsky]

   From Lynda Sayce:
   "I suspect all theorbo players are subliminally aware of the heavy key
   bias in the historic repertory.
   It rears its head every time we're asked to supply a little link piece
   for a programme, always in a key
   in which no theorbo music survives…! The (original) index of the Vaudry
   de Saizenay manuscript (1699),
   which you probably know, gives a pretty good overview of the keys used,
   and their relative importance
   in the repertory. It assumes an instrument in A. The situation with the
   Italian sources is somewhat similar
   (though this is only a casual ‘off the top of my head' mental survey):
   again assuming A tuning, you'll find
   a lot in G major and G minor, D major and D minor. Surprisingly little
   in A major or A minor, which you
   would expect to be much-used keys. A reasonable amount in C major and F
   major.
   Other keys are much less common."

   RT

   On 4/20/2019 4:22 AM, Jean-Marie POIRIER wrote:

   John Wilson has also Voluntaries in these keys !


   Jean-Marie





 > Message du 19/04/19 23:02
 > De : "magnus andersson" [1]
 > A : "Roman Turovsky" [2], "Lute Net"
 [3]
     > Copie à :
 > Objet : [LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire
 >
 > Dear Roman,
 >
 > Not true :)
 > On the top of my head:
 > Bartolotti in A- Wn 17706 ( e minor)
 > De Vis����e in Saizenay ( b minor and e minor)
 > [1]Skickat fr����n Yahoo Mail f����r iPhone
 >
 > Den fredag, april 19, 2019, 10:12 em, skrev Roman Turovsky
 > [4]:
 >
 > A question to the collective wisdom:
 >
 > Someone mentioned to me that there are practically no surviving
 solo
 >
 > theorbo pieces in e-minor or b-minor.
 >
 > Is that true?
 >
 > RT
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 >
 > [2][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 > --
 >
 > References
 >
 > 1. [6]https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
 > 2. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 >

   --

References

   1. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire

[Roman Turovsky]

   for organ?

   RT

   On 4/20/2019 4:22 AM, Jean-Marie POIRIER wrote:

   John Wilson has also Voluntaries in these keys !


   Jean-Marie





 > Message du 19/04/19 23:02
 > De : "magnus andersson" [1]
 > A : "Roman Turovsky" [2], "Lute Net"
 [3]
 > Copie à :
 > Objet : [LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire
 >
 > Dear Roman,
 >
 > Not true :)
 > On the top of my head:
 > Bartolotti in A- Wn 17706 ( e minor)
 > De Vis����e in Saizenay ( b minor and e minor)
 > [1]Skickat fr����n Yahoo Mail f����r iPhone
 >
 > Den fredag, april 19, 2019, 10:12 em, skrev Roman Turovsky
 > [4]:
 >
 > A question to the collective wisdom:
 >
 > Someone mentioned to me that there are practically no surviving
 solo
 >
 > theorbo pieces in e-minor or b-minor.
 >
 > Is that true?
 >
 > RT
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 >
 > [2][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 > --
 >
 > References
 >
 > 1. [6]https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
 > 2. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 >

   --

References

   1. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire

[Jean-Marie POIRIER]

   John Wilson has also Voluntaries in these keys !


   Jean-Marie





 > Message du 19/04/19 23:02
 > De : "magnus andersson" 
 > A : "Roman Turovsky" , "Lute Net"
 
 > Copie à :
 > Objet : [LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire
 >
 > Dear Roman,
 >
 > Not true :)
 > On the top of my head:
 > Bartolotti in A- Wn 17706 ( e minor)
 > De Vis����e in Saizenay ( b minor and e minor)
 > [1]Skickat fr����n Yahoo Mail 
f����r iPhone
 >
 > Den fredag, april 19, 2019, 10:12 em, skrev Roman Turovsky
 > :
 >
 > A question to the collective wisdom:
 >
 > Someone mentioned to me that there are practically no surviving
 solo
 >
 > theorbo pieces in e-minor or b-minor.
 >
 > Is that true?
 >
 > RT
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 >
 > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 > --
 >
 > References
 >
 > 1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
 > 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 >

   --

[LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire

[Alain Veylit]

I think someone confused a theorbo with a lute in G... Em and Bm are not 
friendly keys on a Ren. lute in G.



On 4/19/19 6:30 PM, John Trout wrote:

Roman, Saizenay has an E minor and B minor suite by de Visee.

John

On 4/19/19, 4:14 PM, "Roman Turovsky"  wrote:

 A question to the collective wisdom:
 Someone mentioned to me that there are practically no surviving solo
     theorbo pieces in e-minor or b-minor.
 Is that true?
 
 RT
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at

 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire

[John Trout]

Roman, Saizenay has an E minor and B minor suite by de Visee.

John

On 4/19/19, 4:14 PM, "Roman Turovsky"  wrote:

A question to the collective wisdom:
Someone mentioned to me that there are practically no surviving solo 
    theorbo pieces in e-minor or b-minor.
Is that true?

RT




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire

[Mathias Rösel]

Does de Visée count (ms. Saizenay)?

Mathias



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag
von Jerzy Zak
Gesendet: Freitag, 19. April 2019 22:43
An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire

Roman,

Kapsperger covers partly your search. Look at L. IV d'intav di chitarrone
1640:

Preludio 5to - e-minor (finalis E-major)
Preludio 6to - e-minor (finalis E-major)
Toccata 3za - e-minor (finalis E-major)
Toccata 4ta - E-major!
Passacaglia on p. 34 - e-minor
Corrente on p. 46 - e-minor

This is one of the nicest key on theorbo.
No pieces in b-minor in this collection, however.
J
---


> On 19 Apr 2019, at 22:12, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> A question to the collective wisdom:
> Someone mentioned to me that there are practically no surviving solo
theorbo pieces in e-minor or b-minor.
> Is that true?
> 
> RT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire

[magnus andersson]

   Dear Roman,

   Not true :)
   On the top of my head:
   Bartolotti in A- Wn 17706 ( e minor)
   De Visée in Saizenay ( b minor and e minor)
   [1]Skickat från Yahoo Mail för iPhone

   Den fredag, april 19, 2019, 10:12 em, skrev Roman Turovsky
   :

   A question to the collective wisdom:

   Someone mentioned to me that there are practically no surviving solo

   theorbo pieces in e-minor or b-minor.

   Is that true?

   RT

   To get on or off this list see list information at

   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire

[Jerzy Zak]

Roman,

Kapsperger covers partly your search. Look at L. IV d'intav di chitarrone 1640:

Preludio 5to - e-minor (finalis E-major)
Preludio 6to - e-minor (finalis E-major)
Toccata 3za - e-minor (finalis E-major)
Toccata 4ta - E-major!
Passacaglia on p. 34 - e-minor
Corrente on p. 46 - e-minor

This is one of the nicest key on theorbo.
No pieces in b-minor in this collection, however.
J
---


> On 19 Apr 2019, at 22:12, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> A question to the collective wisdom:
> Someone mentioned to me that there are practically no surviving solo theorbo 
> pieces in e-minor or b-minor.
> Is that true?
> 
> RT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] theorbo repertoire

[Roman Turovsky]

A question to the collective wisdom:
Someone mentioned to me that there are practically no surviving solo 
theorbo pieces in e-minor or b-minor.

Is that true?

RT




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Heavy theorbo neck

[Daniel]

 The resonance behavior of the neck may be as or more important than its mass.  
If the neck is resonating in the frequency range of the music you are playing, 
it is sucking up some of the energy you are putting into the strings and 
dissipating that as internal heating rather than as sound, because of its 
relatively low surface area.  If the neck is relatively heavy and is not 
resonating, it can act as an anchor for the body and soundboard to push off of 
so they achieve maximum displacement and efficient transduction of the string 
energy into sound in the air.  The worst case would be when the neck has 
resonant frequencies in the musical range and is relatively light, so that 
motion is easily transmitted to it from the strings and the body and soundboard 
of the instrument – then lots of your plucking energy gets diverted.

A physicist or engineer can assure you that almost any object has a fundamental 
resonant frequency, normally with a number of harmonics in addition.  The 
resonance frequency depends on the size, shape, mass density, and stiffness 
(modulus of elasticity) of the object, and can be altered by changing the 
tension or compression force on the object.  How can you determine the resonant 
frequency/ies of your neck, since it is too complex an object to calculate them 
easily as you can with a taught string or the air column in an organ pipe?  I 
suggest using Chladni patterns, the way luthiers sometimes do when tweaking 
soundboards.  You will need a variable frequency sine wave generator, an 
amplifier, an audio speaker and some fine sawdust or powdered laundry 
detergent.  Observing Chladni patterns requires a smooth, horizontal flat 
surface on the object, and on a theorbo neck, that may be only the fingerboard, 
so slide all the tied frets up to the nut (You do have marks to indicate t!
 he correct locations, don’t you?), lay the instrument on its back 
(preferably on a dropcloth to aid cleanup) supported on cushions or rolled 
towels with the fingerboard horizontal (use a small carpenter’s level if you 
have one).   Sprinkle the fingerboard sort of evenly with the powder and set 
the speaker near the instrument.  Sweep slowly through the audio frequencies 
with your sine wave audio driving the speaker.  If/when the neck is resonating 
at a given frequency, the powder should tend to gather at the nodes, while 
clearing away from the antinodes.  If your fingerboard is cambered, sorry, this 
may not work because of the lack of a flat surface. 

Another method commonly used for observing resonance behavior is to illuminate 
the object in question with a strobe light of variable frequency in a dark or 
dimly lit location, again while driving the object with a sine wave of audible 
frequency.  Unfortunately, in this case, I suspect the physical motion of the 
instrument neck will be too small to be observable by eye, so it will not work.

Regards,

Daniel Heiman
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Roman Turovsky
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2019 10:45 AM
To: Luca Manassero
Cc: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Heavy theorbo neck

Virtus stat in medio.
RT

On 3/28/2019 9:37 AM, Luca Manassero wrote:
> Dear all,
> thank you for all your interesting suggestions!
> I'll probably think again about it ;-)
> All the best,
> Luca
>  On dom, 24 mar 2019 05:10:08 +0100 Howard
> Posner wrote 
>
> I'd have asked him the question I asked you.
> Sent from my iPhone
> > On Mar 23, 2019, at 18:02, Roman Turovsky <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Pat's opinion re the luthier's fault.
> > RT
> >
> >> On 3/23/2019 7:01 PM, howard posner wrote:
> >> What do you base that conclusion on?
> >> Did the lute formerly have a lighter neck?
> >>
> >>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 3:16 PM, [2]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>> One of my lutes is neck-heavy, and it definitely has been
> detrimental to its sound.
> >>> RT
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>> [3]http://turovsky.org
> >>> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
> >>>
> >>>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:48 PM, [4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> My lute builder, Dieter Schossig, is actually a physicist, and he
> also told me about this. It's about the energy that gets lost in the
> neck, instead of reinforcing the sound.
> >>>>
> >>>> Am 23.03.2019 22:29 schrieb John Mardinly:
> >>>>> Some guitar makers have also believed that neck stiffness
> improves the
> >>>>> sound. Ramirez 1A guitars have a significant graphite-epoxy inset
> along
> >>>

[LUTE] Re: Heavy theorbo neck

[Roman Turovsky]

Virtus stat in medio.
RT

On 3/28/2019 9:37 AM, Luca Manassero wrote:

Dear all,
thank you for all your interesting suggestions!
I'll probably think again about it ;-)
All the best,
Luca
 On dom, 24 mar 2019 05:10:08 +0100 Howard
Posner wrote 

I'd have asked him the question I asked you.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 23, 2019, at 18:02, Roman Turovsky <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Pat's opinion re the luthier's fault.
> RT
>
>> On 3/23/2019 7:01 PM, howard posner wrote:
>> What do you base that conclusion on?
>> Did the lute formerly have a lighter neck?
>>
>>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 3:16 PM, [2]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> One of my lutes is neck-heavy, and it definitely has been
detrimental to its sound.
>>> RT
>>>
>>> 
>>> [3]http://turovsky.org
>>> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
>>>
>>>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:48 PM, [4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My lute builder, Dieter Schossig, is actually a physicist, and he
also told me about this. It's about the energy that gets lost in the
neck, instead of reinforcing the sound.
>>>>
>>>> Am 23.03.2019 22:29 schrieb John Mardinly:
>>>>> Some guitar makers have also believed that neck stiffness
improves the
>>>>> sound. Ramirez 1A guitars have a significant graphite-epoxy inset
along
>>>>> the neck to stiffen it, and that is said to be significant in a
neck
>>>>> that is only 66.7cm.
>>>>> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>>>>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 2:22 PM, howard posner
<[1][5]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:43 AM, Luca Manassero
<[2][6]l...@manassero.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I‘m about to ask him to rebuild the long neck of my big
Hasenfuss
>>>>> theorbo, as the instrument has a fantastic voice, but Hasenfuss
>>>>> built a
>>>>> very heavy long neck, so it is really painful to homd during
>>>>> concerts.
>>>>> A lighter neck should solve the issue.
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>> Luca
>>>>> Consider that the heavy neck may be part of what makes the
fantastic
    >>>>> voice. I've been told that a neck that's heavy, and therefore
does not
>>>>> vibrate, increases resonance because a vibrating neck has a
damping
>>>>> effect on the body of the instrument. I don't recall whether
Hendrik
>>>>> told me that, or it was volunteered by someone else, and I can't
vouch
>>>>> for its accuracy as a matter of acoustical science.
>>>>> But I can tell you that the heavy neck on my Hasenfuss theorbo
was
>>>>> never a problem because I never held the instrument while I
played it.
>>>>> I just used a strap, and ran a leather or fake-leather bootlace
from
>>>>> the bridge-end of the instrument and sat on it (the lace, NOT the
>>>>> instrument). I could take my hands off the theorbo completely.
>>>>> Indeed, listeners may have preferred it when I did.
>>>>> And it's a lot cheaper than rebuilding the neck.
>>>>> H
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
3. http://turovsky.org/
4. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
5. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
6. mailto:l...@manassero.net
7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Heavy theorbo neck

[Luca Manassero]

   Dear all,
   thank you for all your interesting suggestions!
   I'll probably think again about it ;-)
   All the best,
   Luca
    On dom, 24 mar 2019 05:10:08 +0100 Howard
   Posner wrote 

   I'd have asked him the question I asked you.
   Sent from my iPhone
   > On Mar 23, 2019, at 18:02, Roman Turovsky <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com>
   wrote:
   >
   > Pat's opinion re the luthier's fault.
   > RT
   >
   >> On 3/23/2019 7:01 PM, howard posner wrote:
   >> What do you base that conclusion on?
   >> Did the lute formerly have a lighter neck?
   >>
   >>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 3:16 PM, [2]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
   >>>
   >>> One of my lutes is neck-heavy, and it definitely has been
   detrimental to its sound.
   >>> RT
   >>>
   >>> 
   >>> [3]http://turovsky.org
   >>> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
   >>>
   >>>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:48 PM, [4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
   >>>>
   >>>> My lute builder, Dieter Schossig, is actually a physicist, and he
   also told me about this. It's about the energy that gets lost in the
   neck, instead of reinforcing the sound.
   >>>>
   >>>> Am 23.03.2019 22:29 schrieb John Mardinly:
   >>>>> Some guitar makers have also believed that neck stiffness
   improves the
   >>>>> sound. Ramirez 1A guitars have a significant graphite-epoxy inset
   along
   >>>>> the neck to stiffen it, and that is said to be significant in a
   neck
   >>>>> that is only 66.7cm.
   >>>>> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   >>>>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 2:22 PM, howard posner
   <[1][5]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
   >>>>> wrote:
   >>>>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:43 AM, Luca Manassero
   <[2][6]l...@manassero.net>
   >>>>> wrote:
   >>>>> I‘m about to ask him to rebuild the long neck of my big
   Hasenfuss
   >>>>> theorbo, as the instrument has a fantastic voice, but Hasenfuss
   >>>>> built a
   >>>>> very heavy long neck, so it is really painful to homd during
   >>>>> concerts.
   >>>>> A lighter neck should solve the issue.
   >>>>> All the best,
   >>>>> Luca
   >>>>> Consider that the heavy neck may be part of what makes the
   fantastic
   >>>>> voice. I've been told that a neck that's heavy, and therefore
   does not
   >>>>> vibrate, increases resonance because a vibrating neck has a
   damping
   >>>>> effect on the body of the instrument. I don't recall whether
   Hendrik
   >>>>> told me that, or it was volunteered by someone else, and I can't
   vouch
   >>>>> for its accuracy as a matter of acoustical science.
   >>>>> But I can tell you that the heavy neck on my Hasenfuss theorbo
   was
   >>>>> never a problem because I never held the instrument while I
   played it.
   >>>>> I just used a strap, and ran a leather or fake-leather bootlace
   from
   >>>>> the bridge-end of the instrument and sat on it (the lace, NOT the
   >>>>> instrument). I could take my hands off the theorbo completely.
   >>>>> Indeed, listeners may have preferred it when I did.
   >>>>> And it's a lot cheaper than rebuilding the neck.
   >>>>> H
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> To get on or off this list see list information at
   >> [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   3. http://turovsky.org/
   4. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
   5. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   6. mailto:l...@manassero.net
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: theorbo music

[Matthew Daillie]

Hi again Jeff,

I forgot, there are also some pieces in the Manuscrit Rés 1106 (Bibliothèque 
Nationale de Paris) which must be online somewhere because I have a (rather 
poor quality) scan on my HD. Send me a private message if you can't find it and 
I shall try to extract the relevant pieces from what is rather a large file.

Best,

Matthew


Le 26 mars 2019 à 23:34, jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net a écrit :

> Hi, folks—
> 
> I’m trying to track down scores (facsimile or edition) of solo theorbo music 
> by Etienne Le Moine (seems to be some variety in names—Estienne Lemoyne, 
> Estienne Le Moyne, etc.)
> 
> Appears that he left fewer than 10 pieces and that these all survive in 
> manuscript.
> 
> I can do the library digging if necessary, but I’d prefer to spend my time 
> playing the music, rather than tracking it down. If someone on the list can 
> point me to a more readily available source (digital or print), I’d be very 
> much obliged.
> 
> Thanks for help.
> 
> jeff
> 
> 
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: theorbo music

[Matthew Daillie]

There are a number of pieces by Le Moyne in the Saizenay manuscript online here:

http://culture.besancon.fr/ark:/48565/a011284026247S0XA9H/1/1

Best,

Matthew


Le 26 mars 2019 à 23:34, jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net a écrit :

> Hi, folks—
> 
> I’m trying to track down scores (facsimile or edition) of solo theorbo music 
> by Etienne Le Moine (seems to be some variety in names—Estienne Lemoyne, 
> Estienne Le Moyne, etc.)
> 
> Appears that he left fewer than 10 pieces and that these all survive in 
> manuscript.
> 
> I can do the library digging if necessary, but I’d prefer to spend my time 
> playing the music, rather than tracking it down. If someone on the list can 
> point me to a more readily available source (digital or print), I’d be very 
> much obliged.
> 
> Thanks for help.
> 
> jeff
> 
> 
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: theorbo music

[yuval . dvoran]

In Goess there's also one piece, and two more in F-Pn Vm.7 6265:

"LE MOYNE (Le moine, Lemoinne, Lemoine, Lemoyne)

Allemande, A-ETgoëss Th, 62

Allemande, F-B 279.152, 47

Allemande, F-B 279.152, 284

Allemande, F-B 279.152, 348

Allemande, F-Pn Rés. 1106, 16

Allemande, F-Pn Vm.7 6265, 46

Allemande, F-Pn Vm.7 6265, 56

Allemande grave, F-B 279.152, 357

Courante, F-B 279.152, 48

Courante, F-B 279.152, 326

Courante, F-Pn Rés. 1106, 19

Gigue grave, F-B 279.152, 349

Marche, F-Pn Rés. 1106, 11

Prélude, F-Pn Rés. 1106, 10

Sarabande, F-B 279.152, 49

Sarabande, F-B 279.152, 285

Sarabande, F-Pn Rés. 1106, 21"

It's from: https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/index.htm (Sources manuscrit en 
tabulature)


Enjoy!
Yuval


Am 26.03.2019 23:34 schrieb jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net:

Hi, folks—

I’m trying to track down scores (facsimile or edition) of solo
theorbo music by Etienne Le Moine (seems to be some variety in
names—Estienne Lemoyne, Estienne Le Moyne, etc.)

Appears that he left fewer than 10 pieces and that these all survive
in manuscript.

I can do the library digging if necessary, but I’d prefer to spend
my time playing the music, rather than tracking it down. If someone on
the list can point me to a more readily available source (digital or
print), I’d be very much obliged.

Thanks for help.

jeff


--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] theorbo music

[jjnoonan]

Hi, folks—

I’m trying to track down scores (facsimile or edition) of solo theorbo music 
by Etienne Le Moine (seems to be some variety in names—Estienne Lemoyne, 
Estienne Le Moyne, etc.)

Appears that he left fewer than 10 pieces and that these all survive in 
manuscript.

I can do the library digging if necessary, but I’d prefer to spend my time 
playing the music, rather than tracking it down. If someone on the list can 
point me to a more readily available source (digital or print), I’d be very 
much obliged.

Thanks for help.

jeff


--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Stand for theorbo/archelute?

[Jörg Hilbert]

Dear all,

is someone here aware of a good stand for long neck instruments (theorbo, 
archelute)?

Thanks, Jörg



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Heavy theorbo neck

[Howard Posner]

I’d have asked him the question I asked you.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 23, 2019, at 18:02, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> Pat's opinion re the luthier's fault.
> RT
> 
>> On 3/23/2019 7:01 PM, howard posner wrote:
>> What do you base that conclusion on?
>> Did the lute formerly have a lighter neck?
>> 
>>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 3:16 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> One of my lutes is neck-heavy, and it definitely has been detrimental to 
>>> its sound.
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://turovsky.org
>>> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:48 PM, yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> My lute builder, Dieter Schossig, is actually a physicist, and he also 
>>>> told me about this. It's about the energy that gets lost in the neck, 
>>>> instead of reinforcing the sound.
>>>> 
>>>> Am 23.03.2019 22:29 schrieb John Mardinly:
>>>>> Some guitar makers have also believed that neck stiffness improves the
>>>>>  sound. Ramirez 1A guitars have a significant graphite-epoxy inset along
>>>>>  the neck to stiffen it, and that is said to be significant in a neck
>>>>>  that is only 66.7cm.
>>>>>  A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>>>>>  On Mar 23, 2019, at 2:22 PM, howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:43 AM, Luca Manassero <[2]l...@manassero.net>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>> I‘m about to ask him to rebuild the long neck of my big Hasenfuss
>>>>> theorbo, as the instrument has a fantastic voice, but Hasenfuss
>>>>>built a
>>>>> very heavy long neck, so it is really painful to homd during
>>>>>concerts.
>>>>> A lighter neck should solve the issue.
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>> Luca
>>>>>  Consider that the heavy neck may be part of what makes the fantastic
>>>>>  voice.  I've been told that a neck that's heavy, and therefore does not
>>>>>  vibrate, increases resonance because a vibrating neck has a damping
>>>>>  effect on the body of the instrument.  I don't recall whether Hendrik
>>>>>  told me that, or it was volunteered by someone else, and I can't vouch
>>>>>  for its accuracy as a matter of acoustical science.
>>>>>  But I can tell you that the heavy neck on my Hasenfuss theorbo was
>>>>>  never a problem because I never held the instrument while I played it.
>>>>>   I just used a strap, and ran a leather or fake-leather bootlace from
>>>>>  the bridge-end of the instrument and sat on it (the lace, NOT the
>>>>>  instrument).  I could take my hands off the theorbo completely.
>>>>>  Indeed, listeners may have preferred it when I did.
>>>>>  And it's a lot cheaper than rebuilding the neck.
>>>>>  H
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Heavy theorbo neck

[Roman Turovsky]

Pat's opinion re the luthier's fault.
RT

On 3/23/2019 7:01 PM, howard posner wrote:

What do you base that conclusion on?
Did the lute formerly have a lighter neck?


On Mar 23, 2019, at 3:16 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:

One of my lutes is neck-heavy, and it definitely has been detrimental to its 
sound.
RT


http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.


On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:48 PM, yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:

My lute builder, Dieter Schossig, is actually a physicist, and he also told me 
about this. It's about the energy that gets lost in the neck, instead of 
reinforcing the sound.

Am 23.03.2019 22:29 schrieb John Mardinly:

Some guitar makers have also believed that neck stiffness improves the
  sound. Ramirez 1A guitars have a significant graphite-epoxy inset along
  the neck to stiffen it, and that is said to be significant in a neck
  that is only 66.7cm.
  A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
  On Mar 23, 2019, at 2:22 PM, howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
  wrote:
On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:43 AM, Luca Manassero <[2]l...@manassero.net>
wrote:
 I‘m about to ask him to rebuild the long neck of my big Hasenfuss
 theorbo, as the instrument has a fantastic voice, but Hasenfuss
built a
 very heavy long neck, so it is really painful to homd during
concerts.
 A lighter neck should solve the issue.
 All the best,
 Luca
  Consider that the heavy neck may be part of what makes the fantastic
  voice.  I've been told that a neck that's heavy, and therefore does not
  vibrate, increases resonance because a vibrating neck has a damping
  effect on the body of the instrument.  I don't recall whether Hendrik
  told me that, or it was volunteered by someone else, and I can't vouch
  for its accuracy as a matter of acoustical science.
  But I can tell you that the heavy neck on my Hasenfuss theorbo was
  never a problem because I never held the instrument while I played it.
   I just used a strap, and ran a leather or fake-leather bootlace from
  the bridge-end of the instrument and sat on it (the lace, NOT the
  instrument).  I could take my hands off the theorbo completely.
  Indeed, listeners may have preferred it when I did.
  And it's a lot cheaper than rebuilding the neck.
  H




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Heavy theorbo neck

[howard posner]

What do you base that conclusion on?
Did the lute formerly have a lighter neck?

> On Mar 23, 2019, at 3:16 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> One of my lutes is neck-heavy, and it definitely has been detrimental to its 
> sound.
> RT
> 
> 
> http://turovsky.org
> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
> 
>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:48 PM, yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
>> 
>> My lute builder, Dieter Schossig, is actually a physicist, and he also told 
>> me about this. It's about the energy that gets lost in the neck, instead of 
>> reinforcing the sound.
>> 
>> Am 23.03.2019 22:29 schrieb John Mardinly:
>>> Some guitar makers have also believed that neck stiffness improves the
>>>  sound. Ramirez 1A guitars have a significant graphite-epoxy inset along
>>>  the neck to stiffen it, and that is said to be significant in a neck
>>>  that is only 66.7cm.
>>>  A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>>>  On Mar 23, 2019, at 2:22 PM, howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
>>>  wrote:
>>>On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:43 AM, Luca Manassero <[2]l...@manassero.net>
>>>wrote:
>>> I‘m about to ask him to rebuild the long neck of my big Hasenfuss
>>> theorbo, as the instrument has a fantastic voice, but Hasenfuss
>>>built a
>>> very heavy long neck, so it is really painful to homd during
>>>concerts.
>>> A lighter neck should solve the issue.
>>> All the best,
>>> Luca
>>>  Consider that the heavy neck may be part of what makes the fantastic
>>>  voice.  I've been told that a neck that's heavy, and therefore does not
>>>  vibrate, increases resonance because a vibrating neck has a damping
>>>  effect on the body of the instrument.  I don't recall whether Hendrik
>>>  told me that, or it was volunteered by someone else, and I can't vouch
>>>  for its accuracy as a matter of acoustical science.
>>>  But I can tell you that the heavy neck on my Hasenfuss theorbo was
>>>  never a problem because I never held the instrument while I played it.
>>>   I just used a strap, and ran a leather or fake-leather bootlace from
>>>  the bridge-end of the instrument and sat on it (the lace, NOT the
>>>  instrument).  I could take my hands off the theorbo completely.
>>>  Indeed, listeners may have preferred it when I did.
>>>  And it's a lot cheaper than rebuilding the neck.
>>>  H




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Heavy theorbo neck

[r . turovsky]

One of my lutes is neck-heavy, and it definitely has been detrimental to its 
sound.
RT


http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.

> On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:48 PM, yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
> 
> My lute builder, Dieter Schossig, is actually a physicist, and he also told 
> me about this. It's about the energy that gets lost in the neck, instead of 
> reinforcing the sound.
> 
> Am 23.03.2019 22:29 schrieb John Mardinly:
>> Some guitar makers have also believed that neck stiffness improves the
>>   sound. Ramirez 1A guitars have a significant graphite-epoxy inset along
>>   the neck to stiffen it, and that is said to be significant in a neck
>>   that is only 66.7cm.
>>   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>>   On Mar 23, 2019, at 2:22 PM, howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
>>   wrote:
>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:43 AM, Luca Manassero <[2]l...@manassero.net>
>> wrote:
>>  I‘m about to ask him to rebuild the long neck of my big Hasenfuss
>>  theorbo, as the instrument has a fantastic voice, but Hasenfuss
>> built a
>>  very heavy long neck, so it is really painful to homd during
>> concerts.
>>  A lighter neck should solve the issue.
>>  All the best,
>>  Luca
>>   Consider that the heavy neck may be part of what makes the fantastic
>>   voice.  I've been told that a neck that's heavy, and therefore does not
>>   vibrate, increases resonance because a vibrating neck has a damping
>>   effect on the body of the instrument.  I don't recall whether Hendrik
>>   told me that, or it was volunteered by someone else, and I can't vouch
>>   for its accuracy as a matter of acoustical science.
>>   But I can tell you that the heavy neck on my Hasenfuss theorbo was
>>   never a problem because I never held the instrument while I played it.
>>I just used a strap, and ran a leather or fake-leather bootlace from
>>   the bridge-end of the instrument and sat on it (the lace, NOT the
>>   instrument).  I could take my hands off the theorbo completely.
>>   Indeed, listeners may have preferred it when I did.
>>   And it's a lot cheaper than rebuilding the neck.
>>   H
>>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>>   [3]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth
>>   .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n
>>   1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=dI7
>>   xnDPu2Bjw9zV3K5G0E9IDY4yelOErGet17R0lSoA=zWiWsrleJ4nToa6SSrmJ7P-6D006
>>   twxiBkUKArhZubU=
>> References
>>   1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
>>   2. mailto:l...@manassero.net
>>   3.
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=dI7xnDPu2Bjw9zV3K5G0E9IDY4yelOErGet17R0lSoA=zWiWsrleJ4nToa6SSrmJ7P-6D006twxiBkUKArhZubU=
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Heavy theorbo neck

[yuval . dvoran]

My lute builder, Dieter Schossig, is actually a physicist, and he also 
told me about this. It's about the energy that gets lost in the neck, 
instead of reinforcing the sound.


Am 23.03.2019 22:29 schrieb John Mardinly:

Some guitar makers have also believed that neck stiffness improves the
   sound. Ramirez 1A guitars have a significant graphite-epoxy inset 
along

   the neck to stiffen it, and that is said to be significant in a neck
   that is only 66.7cm.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.

   On Mar 23, 2019, at 2:22 PM, howard posner 
<[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>

   wrote:

 On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:43 AM, Luca Manassero 
<[2]l...@manassero.net>

 wrote:
  I‘m about to ask him to rebuild the long neck of my big 
Hasenfuss

  theorbo, as the instrument has a fantastic voice, but Hasenfuss
 built a
  very heavy long neck, so it is really painful to homd during
 concerts.
  A lighter neck should solve the issue.
  All the best,
  Luca

   Consider that the heavy neck may be part of what makes the fantastic
   voice.  I've been told that a neck that's heavy, and therefore does 
not

   vibrate, increases resonance because a vibrating neck has a damping
   effect on the body of the instrument.  I don't recall whether 
Hendrik
   told me that, or it was volunteered by someone else, and I can't 
vouch

   for its accuracy as a matter of acoustical science.
   But I can tell you that the heavy neck on my Hasenfuss theorbo was
   never a problem because I never held the instrument while I played 
it.
I just used a strap, and ran a leather or fake-leather bootlace 
from

   the bridge-end of the instrument and sat on it (the lace, NOT the
   instrument).  I could take my hands off the theorbo completely.
   Indeed, listeners may have preferred it when I did.
   And it's a lot cheaper than rebuilding the neck.
   H
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   
[3]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth
   
.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n
   
1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=dI7
   
xnDPu2Bjw9zV3K5G0E9IDY4yelOErGet17R0lSoA=zWiWsrleJ4nToa6SSrmJ7P-6D006

   twxiBkUKArhZubU=

References

   1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   2. mailto:l...@manassero.net
   3.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=dI7xnDPu2Bjw9zV3K5G0E9IDY4yelOErGet17R0lSoA=zWiWsrleJ4nToa6SSrmJ7P-6D006twxiBkUKArhZubU=