Re: [Biofuel] WVO
hei keith, our organization consists of musicians who want to take responsibility for our energy use - we are interested in any technology that can power our live sound needs sustainably. wvo biodiesel is a great idea in general, but a logistical nightmare for our circumstances: sourcing + transporting chemicals across international borders, varied wvo sources, and so on.. the complications of proper biodiesel are too difficult compared to e.g. woodgas it appears we also have reason to use a centrifuge for the same reasons you cited (mobility, collecting grease as we go, limited settling time), if it is capable of generating electricity for live sound gear without all the chemical inputs, glycerol byproduct + other difficulties. we don't intend to produce/sell premium biodiesel; we just want to run our events on renewable energy instead of the oil/ coal/nuclear grid standard in this part of the world. keeping it as simple as practical! /g. On 12 May, 2010, at 21:29 , Keith Addison wrote: Hello Gavin anybody familiar with this centrifuge method? any insight appreciated! http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/video/2010/may/11/ethical-living-diy-big-society /g. He has a reason to use a centrifuge - he's mobile, he collects the oil as he travels, there's no time to let it settle. But I don't think you're on the move in the same way, are you? If not, you don't need a centrifuge. See: Centrifuges http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#centr Also: Filtering WVO http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#fltr Filtering biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#fltrbd K.I.S.S. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Hei Gavin hei keith, our organization consists of musicians who want to take responsibility for our energy use - we are interested in any technology that can power our live sound needs sustainably. Yes I know that, otherwise I wouldn't have ventured an opinion. wvo biodiesel is a great idea in general, but a logistical nightmare for our circumstances: sourcing + transporting chemicals across international borders, How so? What chemicals? varied wvo sources, What's the difficulty with that? I don't think anybody else has any difficulty. and so on.. the complications of proper biodiesel are too difficult compared to e.g. woodgas It's probably only in Finland that people would make that comparison, thanks to Vesa Mikkonen. it appears we also have reason to use a centrifuge for the same reasons you cited (mobility, collecting grease as we go, limited settling time), Again, how so? Make it in advance in Helsinki and take it with you. I've done such things without any difficulty, so have many others. if it is capable of generating electricity for live sound gear without all the chemical inputs, Methanol and potassium hydroxide are extremely common chemicals, available everywhere, certainly in Helsinki. glycerol byproduct + other difficulties. What's the difficulty with the by-product? What other difficulties? we don't intend to produce/sell premium biodiesel; we just want to run our events on renewable energy instead of the oil/ coal/nuclear grid standard in this part of the world. You're far from alone in that too. We have several times provided biodiesel to power the generators at big two-day summer music festivals here in Japan. No need for centrifuges. keeping it as simple as practical! I disagree. Also you don't seem to have read what's at the links I gave you: Centrifuges http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#centr Also: Filtering WVO http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#fltr Filtering biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#fltrbd Centrifuges don't work well. And biodiesel is much better fuel than WVO anyway. What sort of WVO kit are you planning to fit to your vehicles? (Yes, it needs a kit, not cheap - unless you're willing to put the fuel system at risk.) Are you aware that you'll have to make sure that the WVO you collect is suitable for use as SVO fuel? That means titrating it: Fuel quality http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#gnl Titration for SVO http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#titsvo Titration for SVO is the same process as for making biodiesel, but the purpose is different. With biodiesel, it simply tells you how much catalyst to use, then you go ahead and do it. With SVO, however, it tells you whether the fuel is usable or not, and if it's not you have to find a source of better-quality oil. It's not less trouble, it's more trouble. If you're hoping that a centrifuge can solve the oil quality problem, forget it - the high levels of acids in poor-quality oils cannot be removed by a centrifuge. The only way to do that is to use a chemical process called transesterification, which is how you make biodiesel. Best Keith /g. On 12 May, 2010, at 21:29 , Keith Addison wrote: Hello Gavin anybody familiar with this centrifuge method? any insight appreciated! http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/video/2010/may/11/ethical-living-diy-big-society /g. He has a reason to use a centrifuge - he's mobile, he collects the oil as he travels, there's no time to let it settle. But I don't think you're on the move in the same way, are you? If not, you don't need a centrifuge. See: Centrifuges http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#centr Also: Filtering WVO http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#fltr Filtering biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#fltrbd K.I.S.S. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
hei keith, thanks for feedback + links, i was introducing our idea to the rest of the group as well. i did read the links, which is why i ask for input about centrifuges as none of those points are addressed in the video. if centrifuges dont work well as you say, are they being dishonest? any guess about their method + why they consider it good enough for their purposes? we would prefer to do as much as possible on site rather than prepare it beforehand, in order to demonstrate the process + enable people to copy the system as for chemicals, perhaps they are common but not generally available in such small quantities as we would need, + they would compete for space in the ride with our sound gear. crossing certain international borders we have in mind might become more problematic than it usually is. not saying it's impossible tho. i disagree about the mikkonen factor, woodgas was very common across this region in the middle of the last century, and it's an obvious solution for some of our energy problems today. many others have designed and built their own system, + free wood is readily available. he was only interested in selling plans that we would have to keep confidential for 'personal use', and would not point us to people who can reliably build it. we operate on open source basis sori if i wasn't clear, we are not yet running a vehicle on the fuel, we intend to generate electricity only. thanks for your patience + explanations! best, /g. Hei Gavin hei keith, our organization consists of musicians who want to take responsibility for our energy use - we are interested in any technology that can power our live sound needs sustainably. Yes I know that, otherwise I wouldn't have ventured an opinion. wvo biodiesel is a great idea in general, but a logistical nightmare for our circumstances: sourcing + transporting chemicals across international borders, How so? What chemicals? varied wvo sources, What's the difficulty with that? I don't think anybody else has any difficulty. and so on.. the complications of proper biodiesel are too difficult compared to e.g. woodgas It's probably only in Finland that people would make that comparison, thanks to Vesa Mikkonen. it appears we also have reason to use a centrifuge for the same reasons you cited (mobility, collecting grease as we go, limited settling time), Again, how so? Make it in advance in Helsinki and take it with you. I've done such things without any difficulty, so have many others. if it is capable of generating electricity for live sound gear without all the chemical inputs, Methanol and potassium hydroxide are extremely common chemicals, available everywhere, certainly in Helsinki. glycerol byproduct + other difficulties. What's the difficulty with the by-product? What other difficulties? we don't intend to produce/sell premium biodiesel; we just want to run our events on renewable energy instead of the oil/ coal/nuclear grid standard in this part of the world. You're far from alone in that too. We have several times provided biodiesel to power the generators at big two-day summer music festivals here in Japan. No need for centrifuges. keeping it as simple as practical! I disagree. Also you don't seem to have read what's at the links I gave you: Centrifuges http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#centr Also: Filtering WVO http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#fltr Filtering biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#fltrbd Centrifuges don't work well. And biodiesel is much better fuel than WVO anyway. What sort of WVO kit are you planning to fit to your vehicles? (Yes, it needs a kit, not cheap - unless you're willing to put the fuel system at risk.) Are you aware that you'll have to make sure that the WVO you collect is suitable for use as SVO fuel? That means titrating it: Fuel quality http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#gnl Titration for SVO http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#titsvo Titration for SVO is the same process as for making biodiesel, but the purpose is different. With biodiesel, it simply tells you how much catalyst to use, then you go ahead and do it. With SVO, however, it tells you whether the fuel is usable or not, and if it's not you have to find a source of better-quality oil. It's not less trouble, it's more trouble. If you're hoping that a centrifuge can solve the oil quality problem, forget it - the high levels of acids in poor-quality oils cannot be removed by a centrifuge. The only way to do that is to use a chemical process called transesterification, which is how you make biodiesel. Best Keith /g. On 12 May, 2010, at 21:29 , Keith Addison wrote: Hello Gavin anybody familiar with this centrifuge method? any insight appreciated!
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Hei Gavin hei keith, thanks for feedback + links, i was introducing our idea to the rest of the group as well. i did read the links, which is why i ask for input about centrifuges as none of those points are addressed in the video. if centrifuges dont work well as you say, are they being dishonest? any guess about their method + why they consider it good enough for their purposes? I don't think he's being dishonest, just ignorant. It's still a widespread myth that you can chuck any kind of WVO into a diesel and Hey, it runs great! is all that matters. A major reason that people choose WVO rather than making biodiesel is that they're frightened of titration, and the news that they have to titrate it anyway isn't exactly welcome. So many of them go into denial about it, not many SVO sites will tell you you have to titrate the oil. But, sadly, it's true - there's no way of telling how much free fatty acid the oil contains unless you titrate it, and excess FFAs will certainly damage the fuel injection system. It's not just us who say so - see what the Fuel Injection Equipment Manufacturers (Delphi, Stanadyne, Denso, Bosch) say about Free Fatty Acids: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html Again, a centrifuge will not remove free fatty acids. The other major reason people go for WVO rather than biodiesel is that they're frightened of all those terrible deadly poisonous chemicals. Actually they're not very deadly, and if you follow the directions at the Journey to Forever website Biodiesel section they're not dangerous either. we would prefer to do as much as possible on site rather than prepare it beforehand, in order to demonstrate the process + enable people to copy the system Then you'll have to titrate the oil, or not only risk damaging your own diesel generator but advising other people to risk damaging theirs. as for chemicals, perhaps they are common but not generally available in such small quantities as we would need, I'm sure that's not so. Lab supply companies can supply small quantities, for instance to schools. + they would compete for space in the ride with our sound gear. crossing certain international borders we have in mind might become more problematic than it usually is. not saying it's impossible tho. I doubt it would be a problem. i disagree about the mikkonen factor, woodgas was very common across this region in the middle of the last century, and it's an obvious solution for some of our energy problems today. many others have designed and built their own system, Not very many, it's rather rare. It's also not so simple, there's a lot of gungy stuff in woodgas that has to be removed first. + free wood is readily available. he was only interested in selling plans that we would have to keep confidential for 'personal use', and would not point us to people who can reliably build it. we operate on open source basis Yes, indeed. sori if i wasn't clear, we are not yet running a vehicle on the fuel, we intend to generate electricity only. thanks for your patience + explanations! You're welcome. All best Keith best, /g. Hei Gavin hei keith, our organization consists of musicians who want to take responsibility for our energy use - we are interested in any technology that can power our live sound needs sustainably. Yes I know that, otherwise I wouldn't have ventured an opinion. wvo biodiesel is a great idea in general, but a logistical nightmare for our circumstances: sourcing + transporting chemicals across international borders, How so? What chemicals? varied wvo sources, What's the difficulty with that? I don't think anybody else has any difficulty. and so on.. the complications of proper biodiesel are too difficult compared to e.g. woodgas It's probably only in Finland that people would make that comparison, thanks to Vesa Mikkonen. it appears we also have reason to use a centrifuge for the same reasons you cited (mobility, collecting grease as we go, limited settling time), Again, how so? Make it in advance in Helsinki and take it with you. I've done such things without any difficulty, so have many others. if it is capable of generating electricity for live sound gear without all the chemical inputs, Methanol and potassium hydroxide are extremely common chemicals, available everywhere, certainly in Helsinki. glycerol byproduct + other difficulties. What's the difficulty with the by-product? What other difficulties? we don't intend to produce/sell premium biodiesel; we just want to run our events on renewable energy instead of the oil/ coal/nuclear grid standard in this part of the world. You're far from alone in that too. We have several times provided biodiesel to power the generators at big two-day summer music festivals here in Japan. No need for centrifuges. keeping it as simple as practical! I disagree. Also you don't
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Hello Gavin anybody familiar with this centrifuge method? any insight appreciated! http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/video/2010/may/11/ethical-living-diy-big-society /g. He has a reason to use a centrifuge - he's mobile, he collects the oil as he travels, there's no time to let it settle. But I don't think you're on the move in the same way, are you? If not, you don't need a centrifuge. See: Centrifuges http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#centr Also: Filtering WVO http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#fltr Filtering biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#fltrbd K.I.S.S. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA
Hi Chip Slow response, sorry. Keith Addison wrote: Keith Addison wrote: I'm having a hard time finding WVO. I need 500 Gallons per month and I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant within 10 miles. I've found other companies in other states that sell and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home. I'm just outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal. Thanks, Roger Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people. This is the US Keith :) Yes, Chip, I know. :-) But it just doesn't wash. Heh, Yeah, I was just stirring the pot. Mostly anyway. :-) Thought you might be. (Though it seems indeed it didn't wash.) I also come from a big country, not that big, but big enough, so I know something about it. I quite often used to drive 1,000 miles each way for the weekend, or 400 each way for a different weekend. In an 850cc Mini, foot flat all the way at 80 mph, and not very much gas used. (I'm not small, 6ft 2in.) Japan's a big country too, in its way, narrow but long. Where you guys need a 6.8 litre F250 truck the Japanese use little 660cc K-trucks, for just about everything, very economical, tough and capable. Oh, how I know it! So you do. That makes a pleasant change. Fellow up in my hometown, (that place that is 127miles from where I work?) has a bunch of K-trucks. It's funny, because EVERYONE loves them, everyone wants'em. Yes! They're GREAT! They're creatures great and small. But since their road-legal-ness is suspect, ?? Then it's the road laws that are suspect. and they don't haul down the Interstates at 80+mph they get dismissed. In order to import them them to the US, they have to be governed to max speed of 25mph. Aarghh!! HOW can you do that to a K-truck??! Sheesh! It's kinda silly all in all. Yeah, kinda. There are special classes of vehicles that some states allow to be operated on state highways and road with a posted speed limit of 45mph or less. the K-truck would fit this nicely. It's just too radical an idea, for now, for the US. I can see how it might look a little radical to the Big 3, or the Five Sisters, or to Wall St or Washington or Dick Cheney, but what's that matter if everyone else loves them and wants them? LOL! I love tiny vehicles. Love them. The smallest car I ever had was a Fiat 650. Heh - whose is smaller. I had a Fiat 500, in London in 78-79. I bought it from Ivor Richard, who was a labour cabinet minister, it was said to be quite a sight seeing Ivor heave his large and portly frame out of his Fiat 500 on arrival at Westminster in the morning. It didn't mind traffic jams much, you could sort of squirm through them. It was red, same colour as London buses. It looked a bit like a lifeboat you could hang from davits off the top deck of a London bus in case the bus sank in the traffic. But as you know, there are much smaller cars than that. When I lived in Germany in the mid-80s, for a while I had a Citroen deux chevaux, which relative to some things, was pretty big. I could use it on the Autobahn, legally. it was capable of hitting 130kph. Amazing car. Lots of people drove them from Europe to South Africa, it was almost the vehicle of choice (with the Peugeot 404). You had to spend not many bucks on the suspension or something and then you could cross the Sahara, or whatever. Also the 2CV before that, similar. What I wanted was a Renault 4 Fourgonnette (box van) like a buddy of mine had. Another amazing car. I had a Renault 4 in Holland, and then England, my partner Christine had the box van version. She's probably still got it. I really liked the 4. Heh - there was an Irish joke in London at the time, someone asked an Irishman, What do you think of the Renault 4? Answer: They're innocent! a fellow I used to play darts with had one of those bmw isetta 600s, the 'big' Isetta :) That's cheating. :-) As you probably know however, seems that a lot of Americans greatly enjoy hammering down the road in 3+ton gvw SUVs while jabbering on cellphones and slamming into one another. Yes, I've heard that about them. I think they're going to have to change their ways in the end though, there are signs those days might be over. Simply put, Yer old 660 mini wouldn't be safe here, not in this part of the country, with it's traffic density, and complete disregard for all road use courtesy. :-( I'll take your word for it. I still have a saab sonett that I quit driving a few years because I could not longer enjoy it. Nice though. Got rid of my last VW rabbit (the real rabbit, the G1 golf) at about the same time, bought a '98 subaru legacy outback hoping to survive the eventual altercation with a Ford Excursion or Chevy Tahoe. Series 3 Land Rover? A Defender would probably do too, and more civilised. Good 4x4 too, not easy to get stuck in a K-truck. They're real trucks, but miniaturised, not made-over cars. I don't
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA
Keith Addison wrote: Keith Addison wrote: I'm having a hard time finding WVO. I need 500 Gallons per month and I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant within 10 miles. I've found other companies in other states that sell and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home. I'm just outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal. Thanks, Roger Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people. This is the US Keith :) Yes, Chip, I know. :-) But it just doesn't wash. Heh, Yeah, I was just stirring the pot. Mostly anyway. I also come from a big country, not that big, but big enough, so I know something about it. I quite often used to drive 1,000 miles each way for the weekend, or 400 each way for a different weekend. In an 850cc Mini, foot flat all the way at 80 mph, and not very much gas used. (I'm not small, 6ft 2in.) Japan's a big country too, in its way, narrow but long. Where you guys need a 6.8 litre F250 truck the Japanese use little 660cc K-trucks, for just about everything, very economical, tough and capable. Oh, how I know it! Fellow up in my hometown, (that place that is 127miles from where I work?) has a bunch of K-trucks. It's funny, because EVERYONE loves them, everyone wants'em. But since their road-legal-ness is suspect, and they don't haul down the Interstates at 80+mph they get dismissed. In order to import them them to the US, they have to be governed to max speed of 25mph. It's kinda silly all in all. There are special classes of vehicles that some states allow to be operated on state highways and road with a posted speed limit of 45mph or less. the K-truck would fit this nicely. It's just too radical an idea, for now, for the US. I love tiny vehicles. Love them. The smallest car I ever had was a Fiat 650. But as you know, there are much smaller cars than that. When I lived in Germany in the mid-80s, for a while I had a Citroen deux chevaux, which relative to some things, was pretty big. I could use it on the Autobahn, legally. it was capable of hitting 130kph. What I wanted was a Renault 4 Fourgonnette (box van) like a buddy of mine had. a fellow I used to play darts with had one of those bmw isetta 600s, the 'big' Isetta :) As you probably know however, seems that a lot of Americans greatly enjoy hammering down the road in 3+ton gvw SUVs while jabbering on cellphones and slamming into one another. Simply put, Yer old 660 mini wouldn't be safe here, not in this part of the country, with it's traffic density, and complete disregard for all road use courtesy. I still have a saab sonett that I quit driving a few years because I could not longer enjoy it. Got rid of my last VW rabbit (the real rabbit, the G1 golf) at about the same time, bought a '98 subaru legacy outback hoping to survive the eventual altercation with a Ford Excursion or Chevy Tahoe. Good 4x4 too, not easy to get stuck in a K-truck. They're real trucks, but miniaturised, not made-over cars. I don't think Japan would work very well without its K-trucks, I can see it sort of slowly grinding to a halt. There are K-cars too, all the K-vehicles have low taxes to encourage people to buy them. Well, my father -who was part of the first occupation- spent his formative years in Japan, and since he arrived there at the age of 18, and stayed for a while, fell deeply in love with the place and the people. One of those sailors who 'went native'. Anyway, that's staggeringly long story, the germane bit is that the last time he was there, was about 20 years ago. His idea of a good time, was to go down to the fish market at about 4am, and sit back across from it, and wait, and watch. He just loved watching all the little vehicles, and of course, -being a seafood biologist- and the market. As he put it, there was no such thing as a vehicle so small that there wasn't a smaller one that could pull up and park between two of them. :) Of course, he also bought his first VW beetle in 62, and loved small cars. His last car before he stopped driving was an old diesel dasher, that got over 50mpg, and had over 360k miles on it. I wonder if your F250s accomplish that much more work than Japan's K-trucks do (let alone 10 times as much work, since they're 10 times as big), and what the real costs might be per unit of work accomplished in each case, or some such efficiency comparison. I've no idea where to find such data, if anywhere, but it might be a surprise. No to me. On the leading point, since I hardly use mine, it's almost a moot point. On the overall point, since it's road legal, I can use it, more or less safely. It's a 85 6.9 mechanical idi, not a 6.8. So at least I can work on it. It's a good truck. But were things just a little different, I'd gladly trade back down to my preferred truck; a suzuki long-bed F-413 pickup. Can't get those here. You see a few lwb 410s around, but they are
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA
Hello Roger Thanks for the reply. A combination...My F250 Diesel, Oil Heat, My father's F250, and some for the neighbor's house. Four users then, averaging enough for three people each (who also use too much). I suppose the 500 Gallons is a winter number - maybe 300 gallons in the summer to support the lot of us. I go through about 250 gallons a month myself (in the winter). That's only 1 tank per week in the truck (26 gal). Um, 1 tank per week in the truck (26 gal) is about 104 gallons a month, not 250 gallons a month. Is the 104 gallons a month your summer rate? Why would you use more than twice as much in the winter? If that's what you're saying? Plus I have a few friends asking for any surplus I have. Currently, I'm only acquiring about 100 gallons a month, which is more hassle than I imagined. Between driving up to 30 minutes away and then trying to get the sludge from the good stuff, it doesn't seem worth it compared to over $5 a gal for diesel and heating oil is right behind at $4.69. So it's 100 gallons a month, or less (sludge), not 300 or 500. I wonder how much you actually use. What do you do with the sludge? If you're using 104 gallons a month, that's 1,248 gallons a year, 2.5 times the national average, and you're covering 22,500 miles a year, about twice the national average. If you're using 250 gallons a month, that's 3,000 gallons a year, six times the national average, and you're covering 54,000 miles a year, 4.5 times the national average. I don't think anyone pretends the national average is exactly energy efficient, let alone sustainable, or not anyone who's sane anyway. You use either 4 times or 10 times as much fuel as we do. Why do you drive so much? For how many of those 22,500 miles a year or 54,000 miles a year is your F250 actually carrying a load that justifies its existence? Do you drive alone or do you share? How many miles could you do just as well in a 1980s VW Golf that gets 50 mpg? How many could you do just as well without? If WVO weren't cheaper than petro would your mileage be the same? What might your mileage be if you couldn't get enough WVO and the gas price hit $10 and the methanol price went up too? Or with gas at $15, or $20? And what's it got to do with me? :-) Best Keith Keith Addison wrote: Keith Addison wrote: I'm having a hard time finding WVO. I need 500 Gallons per month and I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant within 10 miles. I've found other companies in other states that sell and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home. I'm just outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal. Thanks, Roger Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people. This is the US Keith :) Yes, Chip, I know. :-) But it just doesn't wash. I also come from a big country, not that big, but big enough, so I know something about it. I quite often used to drive 1,000 miles each way for the weekend, or 400 each way for a different weekend. In an 850cc Mini, foot flat all the way at 80 mph, and not very much gas used. (I'm not small, 6ft 2in.) Japan's a big country too, in its way, narrow but long. Where you guys need a 6.8 litre F250 truck the Japanese use little 660cc K-trucks, for just about everything, very economical, tough and capable. Good 4x4 too, not easy to get stuck in a K-truck. They're real trucks, but miniaturised, not made-over cars. I don't think Japan would work very well without its K-trucks, I can see it sort of slowly grinding to a halt. There are K-cars too, all the K-vehicles have low taxes to encourage people to buy them. I wonder if your F250s accomplish that much more work than Japan's K-trucks do (let alone 10 times as much work, since they're 10 times as big), and what the real costs might be per unit of work accomplished in each case, or some such efficiency comparison. I've no idea where to find such data, if anywhere, but it might be a surprise. Anyway, the cases you describe don't seem to be typical for the US, according to these stats, source U.S. Department of Transportation: Average annual fuel consumed per vehicle (gallons) - Passenger car - 2005: 541 Average miles traveled per vehicle (thousands) - Passenger car: 12.4 http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004727.html That's about what I thought, 12,000 miles a year, 500 gallons. So yes, Roger's 500 gallons a month should be enough for 12 people. I don't know, but I don't think he's in the same situation as you. He says he's just outside Philadelphia, he said before he works for a laboratory surplus equipment company, in Philadelphia I guess, though maybe not. So why does he need so much fuel? Interesting numbers at that infoplease page. Number of passenger cars registered 1960: 61,671,000 2005: 135,568,000 Did the US get twice as big in the
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA
Roger wrote: I'm having a hard time finding WVO. I need 500 Gallons per month and I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant within 10 miles. I've found other companies in other states that sell and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home. I'm just outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal. Thanks, Roger You could check with this guy http://www.smarterfuel.com/sales.html He's up near Reading I think. He likes to deal quantity. 1000+ gallons. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Chip Mefford Before Enlightenment; chop wood carry water After Enlightenment; chop wood carry water - Public Key http://www.well.com/user/cpm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA
I'm having a hard time finding WVO. I need 500 Gallons per month and I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant within 10 miles. I've found other companies in other states that sell and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home. I'm just outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal. Thanks, Roger Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA
Keith Addison wrote: I'm having a hard time finding WVO. I need 500 Gallons per month and I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant within 10 miles. I've found other companies in other states that sell and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home. I'm just outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal. Thanks, Roger Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people. This is the US Keith :) Lemme see, 500 gal of svo, could yield 500 gals of bd, for a 30 day month, that's ~17 gallons a day, in my F-250, that get's 16-20mpg,if I drive it really gently, that's 300 miles a day, but that's every day. Since I live 127 miles from where I work, I could *almost* burn that much. However, I don't commute, I only go home on the weekends, and I don't drive the truck :) Some folks will boggle at that. But around here, it's not as far-fetched as one might -at first blush- think. Of the 80-some-odd folks that I work with, more than half of them commute more than 50 miles a day, some more than 75. A few well over 100. I personally drive just a bit over 70 miles a day on average. On the road, I see vehicles coming in from much farther out that are gigantic fuel burners. These are daily commuters, 2.5 to 5ton class diesel trucks close to fully loaded with welders, etc. that probably log well over 200 miles a day, and I'm sure they don't get anything like 15-20 mpg. So, yeah, I can see how some folks, trades people esp, who would go through 500 gals a month. An interesting trend that I've been paying attention to over the years are the 3/4 to 1 ton short bed crew cab turbo diesel pickups, that are 'dressed' up, making them essentially SUVs that haul up and down from much futher out than i normally drive (which is already an insane amount) who have no regard for anything resembling speed limits. As the prices have climbed over the last year, I've started seeing more and more of them in used car lots, but there are plenty of them still on the road. And they haven't even slowed down. So, though diesel has gone up nearly 2x in a year, seems these folks are just fine with that. Lot of complaining, but very little change in behavior. I also know, as in know personally, over the road truck operators, who have been completely buried. done in by this fuel increase. Sitting home, going through their savings, hoping for a reversal of fortune, and looking for different work. Some completely wiped out already. But still I see no real changes, just individual disasters. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Chip Mefford Before Enlightenment; chop wood carry water After Enlightenment; chop wood carry water - Public Key http://www.well.com/user/cpm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA
Keith Addison wrote: I'm having a hard time finding WVO. I need 500 Gallons per month and I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant within 10 miles. I've found other companies in other states that sell and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home. I'm just outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal. Thanks, Roger Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people. This is the US Keith :) Yes, Chip, I know. :-) But it just doesn't wash. I also come from a big country, not that big, but big enough, so I know something about it. I quite often used to drive 1,000 miles each way for the weekend, or 400 each way for a different weekend. In an 850cc Mini, foot flat all the way at 80 mph, and not very much gas used. (I'm not small, 6ft 2in.) Japan's a big country too, in its way, narrow but long. Where you guys need a 6.8 litre F250 truck the Japanese use little 660cc K-trucks, for just about everything, very economical, tough and capable. Good 4x4 too, not easy to get stuck in a K-truck. They're real trucks, but miniaturised, not made-over cars. I don't think Japan would work very well without its K-trucks, I can see it sort of slowly grinding to a halt. There are K-cars too, all the K-vehicles have low taxes to encourage people to buy them. I wonder if your F250s accomplish that much more work than Japan's K-trucks do (let alone 10 times as much work, since they're 10 times as big), and what the real costs might be per unit of work accomplished in each case, or some such efficiency comparison. I've no idea where to find such data, if anywhere, but it might be a surprise. Anyway, the cases you describe don't seem to be typical for the US, according to these stats, source U.S. Department of Transportation: Average annual fuel consumed per vehicle (gallons) - Passenger car - 2005: 541 Average miles traveled per vehicle (thousands) - Passenger car: 12.4 http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004727.html That's about what I thought, 12,000 miles a year, 500 gallons. So yes, Roger's 500 gallons a month should be enough for 12 people. I don't know, but I don't think he's in the same situation as you. He says he's just outside Philadelphia, he said before he works for a laboratory surplus equipment company, in Philadelphia I guess, though maybe not. So why does he need so much fuel? Interesting numbers at that infoplease page. Number of passenger cars registered 1960: 61,671,000 2005: 135,568,000 Did the US get twice as big in the meantime? No: Vehicle-miles traveled - Passenger car 1960: 587,000,000 2005: 1,689,965,000 It got three times as big! LOL! Sorry. snip But still I see no real changes, just individual disasters. That's the problem eh? Ordinary people, the real ones, get hurt first, and the toy people don't feel a thing. I suppose long-haul will go by train, or not at all, trucks will be for local. Hm. The Japanese don't export the K-vehicles, but I think you can get second-hand K-trucks in the US now. Maybe some of your trucker friends might be interested in this: http://www.best-used-tractors.com/mini_truck.html Used Japanese 4X4 K-class Mini Trucks, Micro Trucks - US and Canada The Japanese have been making right hand drive light duty trucks for decades which Best Used Tractors can now import used in containers to the US, to Canada, and to many other countries around the globe. Bit of money to be made there, I think. Could even be trendy, sort of an anti-Hummer. Best Keith Lemme see, 500 gal of svo, could yield 500 gals of bd, for a 30 day month, that's ~17 gallons a day, in my F-250, that get's 16-20mpg,if I drive it really gently, that's 300 miles a day, but that's every day. Since I live 127 miles from where I work, I could *almost* burn that much. However, I don't commute, I only go home on the weekends, and I don't drive the truck :) Some folks will boggle at that. But around here, it's not as far-fetched as one might -at first blush- think. Of the 80-some-odd folks that I work with, more than half of them commute more than 50 miles a day, some more than 75. A few well over 100. I personally drive just a bit over 70 miles a day on average. On the road, I see vehicles coming in from much farther out that are gigantic fuel burners. These are daily commuters, 2.5 to 5ton class diesel trucks close to fully loaded with welders, etc. that probably log well over 200 miles a day, and I'm sure they don't get anything like 15-20 mpg. So, yeah, I can see how some folks, trades people esp, who would go through 500 gals a month. An interesting trend that I've been paying attention to over the years are the 3/4 to 1 ton short bed crew cab turbo diesel pickups, that are 'dressed' up, making them essentially SUVs that haul up and down from much futher out than i normally drive (which is already an insane amount) who have no regard for anything resembling speed limits.
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA
Maybe he's working with a group of guys to make it. Maybe he owns a delivery truck. Maybe he owns a company that has 12 trucks in its fleet. Maybe he has a hole in his storage tank. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:47 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA Keith Addison wrote: I'm having a hard time finding WVO. I need 500 Gallons per month and I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant within 10 miles. I've found other companies in other states that sell and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home. I'm just outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal. Thanks, Roger Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people. This is the US Keith :) Yes, Chip, I know. :-) But it just doesn't wash. I also come from a big country, not that big, but big enough, so I know something about it. I quite often used to drive 1,000 miles each way for the weekend, or 400 each way for a different weekend. In an 850cc Mini, foot flat all the way at 80 mph, and not very much gas used. (I'm not small, 6ft 2in.) Japan's a big country too, in its way, narrow but long. Where you guys need a 6.8 litre F250 truck the Japanese use little 660cc K-trucks, for just about everything, very economical, tough and capable. Good 4x4 too, not easy to get stuck in a K-truck. They're real trucks, but miniaturised, not made-over cars. I don't think Japan would work very well without its K-trucks, I can see it sort of slowly grinding to a halt. There are K-cars too, all the K-vehicles have low taxes to encourage people to buy them. I wonder if your F250s accomplish that much more work than Japan's K-trucks do (let alone 10 times as much work, since they're 10 times as big), and what the real costs might be per unit of work accomplished in each case, or some such efficiency comparison. I've no idea where to find such data, if anywhere, but it might be a surprise. Anyway, the cases you describe don't seem to be typical for the US, according to these stats, source U.S. Department of Transportation: Average annual fuel consumed per vehicle (gallons) - Passenger car - 2005: 541 Average miles traveled per vehicle (thousands) - Passenger car: 12.4 http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004727.html That's about what I thought, 12,000 miles a year, 500 gallons. So yes, Roger's 500 gallons a month should be enough for 12 people. I don't know, but I don't think he's in the same situation as you. He says he's just outside Philadelphia, he said before he works for a laboratory surplus equipment company, in Philadelphia I guess, though maybe not. So why does he need so much fuel? Interesting numbers at that infoplease page. Number of passenger cars registered 1960: 61,671,000 2005: 135,568,000 Did the US get twice as big in the meantime? No: Vehicle-miles traveled - Passenger car 1960: 587,000,000 2005: 1,689,965,000 It got three times as big! LOL! Sorry. snip But still I see no real changes, just individual disasters. That's the problem eh? Ordinary people, the real ones, get hurt first, and the toy people don't feel a thing. I suppose long-haul will go by train, or not at all, trucks will be for local. Hm. The Japanese don't export the K-vehicles, but I think you can get second-hand K-trucks in the US now. Maybe some of your trucker friends might be interested in this: http://www.best-used-tractors.com/mini_truck.html Used Japanese 4X4 K-class Mini Trucks, Micro Trucks - US and Canada The Japanese have been making right hand drive light duty trucks for decades which Best Used Tractors can now import used in containers to the US, to Canada, and to many other countries around the globe. Bit of money to be made there, I think. Could even be trendy, sort of an anti-Hummer. Best Keith Lemme see, 500 gal of svo, could yield 500 gals of bd, for a 30 day month, that's ~17 gallons a day, in my F-250, that get's 16-20mpg,if I drive it really gently, that's 300 miles a day, but that's every day. Since I live 127 miles from where I work, I could *almost* burn that much. However, I don't commute, I only go home on the weekends, and I don't drive the truck :) Some folks will boggle at that. But around here, it's not as far-fetched as one might -at first blush- think. Of the 80-some-odd folks that I work with, more than half of them commute more than 50 miles a day, some more than 75. A few well over 100. I personally drive just a bit over 70 miles a day on average. On the road, I see vehicles coming in from much farther out that are gigantic fuel burners. These are daily commuters, 2.5 to 5ton class diesel trucks close to fully loaded with welders, etc. that probably log well over 200 miles a day, and I'm sure they don't get anything like 15-20 mpg. So, yeah, I can see how some folks
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA
Maybe he's working with a group of guys to make it. Maybe he owns a delivery truck. Maybe he owns a company that has 12 trucks in its fleet. Maybe he has a hole in his storage tank. Maybe he'll tell us himself. Keith -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:47 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA Keith Addison wrote: I'm having a hard time finding WVO. I need 500 Gallons per month and I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant within 10 miles. I've found other companies in other states that sell and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home. I'm just outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal. Thanks, Roger Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people. This is the US Keith :) Yes, Chip, I know. :-) But it just doesn't wash. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA
A combination...My F250 Diesel, Oil Heat, My father's F250, and some for the neighbor's house. I suppose the 500 Gallons is a winter number - maybe 300 gallons in the summer to support the lot of us. I go through about 250 gallons a month myself (in the winter). That's only 1 tank per week in the truck (26 gal). Plus I have a few friends asking for any surplus I have. Currently, I'm only acquiring about 100 gallons a month, which is more hassle than I imagined. Between driving up to 30 minutes away and then trying to get the sludge from the good stuff, it doesn't seem worth it compared to over $5 a gal for diesel and heating oil is right behind at $4.69. Keith Addison wrote: Keith Addison wrote: I'm having a hard time finding WVO. I need 500 Gallons per month and I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant within 10 miles. I've found other companies in other states that sell and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home. I'm just outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal. Thanks, Roger Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people. This is the US Keith :) Yes, Chip, I know. :-) But it just doesn't wash. I also come from a big country, not that big, but big enough, so I know something about it. I quite often used to drive 1,000 miles each way for the weekend, or 400 each way for a different weekend. In an 850cc Mini, foot flat all the way at 80 mph, and not very much gas used. (I'm not small, 6ft 2in.) Japan's a big country too, in its way, narrow but long. Where you guys need a 6.8 litre F250 truck the Japanese use little 660cc K-trucks, for just about everything, very economical, tough and capable. Good 4x4 too, not easy to get stuck in a K-truck. They're real trucks, but miniaturised, not made-over cars. I don't think Japan would work very well without its K-trucks, I can see it sort of slowly grinding to a halt. There are K-cars too, all the K-vehicles have low taxes to encourage people to buy them. I wonder if your F250s accomplish that much more work than Japan's K-trucks do (let alone 10 times as much work, since they're 10 times as big), and what the real costs might be per unit of work accomplished in each case, or some such efficiency comparison. I've no idea where to find such data, if anywhere, but it might be a surprise. Anyway, the cases you describe don't seem to be typical for the US, according to these stats, source U.S. Department of Transportation: Average annual fuel consumed per vehicle (gallons) - Passenger car - 2005: 541 Average miles traveled per vehicle (thousands) - Passenger car: 12.4 http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004727.html That's about what I thought, 12,000 miles a year, 500 gallons. So yes, Roger's 500 gallons a month should be enough for 12 people. I don't know, but I don't think he's in the same situation as you. He says he's just outside Philadelphia, he said before he works for a laboratory surplus equipment company, in Philadelphia I guess, though maybe not. So why does he need so much fuel? Interesting numbers at that infoplease page. Number of passenger cars registered 1960: 61,671,000 2005: 135,568,000 Did the US get twice as big in the meantime? No: Vehicle-miles traveled - Passenger car 1960: 587,000,000 2005: 1,689,965,000 It got three times as big! LOL! Sorry. snip But still I see no real changes, just individual disasters. That's the problem eh? Ordinary people, the real ones, get hurt first, and the toy people don't feel a thing. I suppose long-haul will go by train, or not at all, trucks will be for local. Hm. The Japanese don't export the K-vehicles, but I think you can get second-hand K-trucks in the US now. Maybe some of your trucker friends might be interested in this: http://www.best-used-tractors.com/mini_truck.html Used Japanese 4X4 K-class Mini Trucks, Micro Trucks - US and Canada The Japanese have been making right hand drive light duty trucks for decades which Best Used Tractors can now import used in containers to the US, to Canada, and to many other countries around the globe. Bit of money to be made there, I think. Could even be trendy, sort of an anti-Hummer. Best Keith Lemme see, 500 gal of svo, could yield 500 gals of bd, for a 30 day month, that's ~17 gallons a day, in my F-250, that get's 16-20mpg,if I drive it really gently, that's 300 miles a day, but that's every day. Since I live 127 miles from where I work, I could *almost* burn that much. However, I don't commute, I only go home on the weekends, and I don't drive the truck :) Some folks will boggle at that. But around here, it's not as far-fetched as one might -at first blush- think. Of the 80-some-odd folks that I work with, more than half of them commute more than 50 miles a day, some
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA
Ya just never know ;) This is almost as intriguing a mystery as all those feet washing up in canada. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:03 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA Maybe he's working with a group of guys to make it. Maybe he owns a delivery truck. Maybe he owns a company that has 12 trucks in its fleet. Maybe he has a hole in his storage tank. Maybe he'll tell us himself. Keith -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:47 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA Keith Addison wrote: I'm having a hard time finding WVO. I need 500 Gallons per month and I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant within 10 miles. I've found other companies in other states that sell and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home. I'm just outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal. Thanks, Roger Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people. This is the US Keith :) Yes, Chip, I know. :-) But it just doesn't wash. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO Sludge Disposal - Cross posted
Jason, Sorry for the delayed response, but I was in the midst of experimenting with my own sludge oil. I settle my WVO before pouring the clear dry portion into 55 gal storage drums. I use the oil from the top 3/4 of the drums for processing into BD. After three years I decided to empty the tanks one-by-one. I accumulated a total of almost 100gal (~380L) of thick, gooey sludge from the bottoms of 8 tanks. The sludge contained water and titrated significantly higher than the oil above it. I had experimented with treating WVO with the glycerin cocktail from BD production and decided to try it with the sludge oil. Treated with the glycerin mix, oil that had resembled butterscotch pudding at 60F (~15C), was liquid at the same temp. It had much less water and titrated lower (3.5 - 3.7ml of 0.1%KOH/L lowered to ~ 2.5). A test batch of the pudding oil incomplete reaction with much soap. I have successfully processed three batches of the treated sludge and am running the BD as summer fuel in my car and my wife's car. The BD clouds a bit at 55F (~12C), but flows fine. No trouble starting even on some cool mornings (~ 40F/~5C). The BD produced can be used as summer fuel for cars or as fuel for my heating system in the cold weather. The original post had been sent to a couple of veg oil groups, but I thought biodiesel homebrewers might benefit from knowing that they don't have to dispose of their bottom of the barrel veg oil. There was some discussion of treating WVO with the glyc. prod earlier in the year. Search archives Treating WVO with Glycerin. I'd be happy to go over the process I follow if anyone's interested. With recent discussions about problems acquiring WVO it might be good to be able to use what we previously would have disposed of (???) or turned down. Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Mier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 4:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Sludge Disposal - Cross posted try this. its written in terms of glycerine, but i think junk grease and fryer slime would work as well. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#burn you could also make a huge pile of these logs and dump them a handful at a time into the compost, also, further down-page is a topic i particularly like; anaerobic digestion- making NatGas and a liquid fertilizer for your own personal use. this information is also in the JtF library: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/MethaneDigesters/MDToC.html#ToC although it has been suggested that you might want to compost the sludge product before using it as a fertilizer. Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 19:00:26 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] WVO Sludge Disposal - Cross posted What are you doing with your WVO sludge? I know this topics been discussed in the past but, it seems only to a limited degree. I have two needs - the first is long term - how am I going to handle the sludge from my regular use? I use WVO in my car and in my boiler. The second concern is more immediate...I have a fair amount of WVO sludge (probably around 100 gallons) and I need to find a eco-friendly solution for disposing of it. I think 100 gallons is more than my compost pile can handle. Furthermore, some of the oil that I had was less than ideal quality so the sludge really stinks. I also think that I could dispose of it one cubie at a time in my trash pickup but, that is not eco-friendly at all. One thing is certain - I have to be more selective about the restaurants that I get my oil from. Thanks in advance, Ken -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080514/dbe5eecd/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_052008 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] WVO Sludge Disposal - Cross posted
try this. its written in terms of glycerine, but i think junk grease and fryer slime would work as well. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#burn you could also make a huge pile of these logs and dump them a handful at a time into the compost, also, further down-page is a topic i particularly like; anaerobic digestion- making NatGas and a liquid fertilizer for your own personal use. this information is also in the JtF library: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/MethaneDigesters/MDToC.html#ToC although it has been suggested that you might want to compost the sludge product before using it as a fertilizer. Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 19:00:26 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] WVO Sludge Disposal - Cross posted What are you doing with your WVO sludge? I know this topics been discussed in the past but, it seems only to a limited degree. I have two needs - the first is long term - how am I going to handle the sludge from my regular use? I use WVO in my car and in my boiler. The second concern is more immediate...I have a fair amount of WVO sludge (probably around 100 gallons) and I need to find a eco-friendly solution for disposing of it. I think 100 gallons is more than my compost pile can handle. Furthermore, some of the oil that I had was less than ideal quality so the sludge really stinks. I also think that I could dispose of it one cubie at a time in my trash pickup but, that is not eco-friendly at all. One thing is certain - I have to be more selective about the restaurants that I get my oil from. Thanks in advance, Ken -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080514/dbe5eecd/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_052008 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO supplies on the wane?
Hi Keith, Regarding your last paragraph, I can confirm that here there is no or very little WVO. Either they just keep using it and top it off every day or the cooks are taking it home. I visited an instant noodle factory and there's no WVO, they keep adding unless it really becomes really rancid. I think it is not only a question of choice, it is also a question of education. They just don't know always that it is not good for health. As long as it tastes ok they keep using it. An other example; they prefer white rise. Brown rise does not looks clean to them. Although here there is an other more practical reason. You need to cook brown rise longer thus more energy. But if you ask an urban person, they think the rise as not been cleaned. They don't know that there's good stuff for human as well in the bran. They use it as animal feeding. Olivier From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 00:29:07 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] WVO supplies on the wane? The price of cooking oil went up. The supply of WVO from the restaurant we usually get it from went right down, from more than enough to much less than enough (though we also have other sources, so no big problem). The FFA content went up, doubling from a titration of 0.8 - 1.2 ml 0.1% NaOH solution to 2.0 - 2.35 ml. Also not a problem. So it seems they keep costs stable by using the oil longer. That's probably a common practice. This is quite a good restaurant (you can tell from the previously low titration levels), not very good restaurants will probably keep it going even longer. Again, probably not a big problem for most, all indications are that there's still really a lot of WVO that goes unaccounted for in most of the industrialised countries, though for a couple of years now backyard brewers have been telling of increasing competition for local supplies. In poorer countries though, from what I've seen elsewhere and from what I can gather, there might not be much to spare for diesel motors - people just keep using their oil until it's all used up. Not very good for them, but they might not have much choice. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO supplies on the wane?
Hi Olivier, they just top it off every day, you hit the nail rigth on! When i inquiered once at a greesy spoon chain in Quebec,the Manager told me,there is no wvoil,they have apparantly so much turnover that they dont need to change any oil! since this time i make a big detour when ever i see a Labelle Province Restaurant Fritz - Original Message - From: Olivier Morf To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO supplies on the wane? Hi Keith, Regarding your last paragraph, I can confirm that here there is no or very little WVO. Either they just keep using it and top it off every day or the cooks are taking it home. I visited an instant noodle factory and there's no WVO, they keep adding unless it really becomes really rancid. I think it is not only a question of choice, it is also a question of education. They just don't know always that it is not good for health. As long as it tastes ok they keep using it. An other example; they prefer white rise. Brown rise does not looks clean to them. Although here there is an other more practical reason. You need to cook brown rise longer thus more energy. But if you ask an urban person, they think the rise as not been cleaned. They don't know that there's good stuff for human as well in the bran. They use it as animal feeding. Olivier From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 00:29:07 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] WVO supplies on the wane? The price of cooking oil went up. The supply of WVO from the restaurant we usually get it from went right down, from more than enough to much less than enough (though we also have other sources, so no big problem). The FFA content went up, doubling from a titration of 0.8 - 1.2 ml 0.1% NaOH solution to 2.0 - 2.35 ml. Also not a problem. So it seems they keep costs stable by using the oil longer. That's probably a common practice. This is quite a good restaurant (you can tell from the previously low titration levels), not very good restaurants will probably keep it going even longer. Again, probably not a big problem for most, all indications are that there's still really a lot of WVO that goes unaccounted for in most of the industrialised countries, though for a couple of years now backyard brewers have been telling of increasing competition for local supplies. In poorer countries though, from what I've seen elsewhere and from what I can gather, there might not be much to spare for diesel motors - people just keep using their oil until it's all used up. Not very good for them, but they might not have much choice. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080313/6b684ecb/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators ; VO ou BD or Blend:Small System MODEL
Hi Chandan, Pagandai and all Dear Pannirselvam, Thanks for the detailed response. I gather that there is good opportunity to add to the experimentally established results on castor based biodiesel and the blends that might work well. I'm right now exploring a tie-up with one of the govt research labs and an agricultural university here in India to set up a small research project. Your inputs are very helpful for me to determine how to set the scope of the project.There is a lot of hard selling on jatropha going on around here. My purpose is to match the results (FUD?) available on jatropha based agrofuel number by number with results on castor based fuel. Interesting Chandan, good for you, good luck! The one problem with castor oil is the high viscosity, and with castor oil biodiesel as well. There's quite a lot about it in previous discussions, in the archives. Castor oil is not like other oils, it has some unique properties, quite a lot about that too, worth having a look. Blending straight castor oil and ethanol is an interesting prospect, perhaps starting with the 9% addition of 95% ethanol the ACREVO report recommends - much improved combustion, and lower viscosity too. From there on up to the 20% castor oil and 80% wet ethanol blend David Blume reports. That should be very nice for diesel motors, they'd probably last forever. Nice for farmers too, castorbean is generally a better option than jatropha. You can fit it into a cropping system for instance, and it seems to grow just about anywhere. I posted a message last Sunday on the local scenario here regarding the new small car Tata Nano, but not sure if it got through to the list. Yes, it's here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg71687.html Forgot the pedestrians, aarghh! LOL! All best Keith Chandan Pagandai Pannirselvam wrote: Dear Chandan and all the list member Even though I am in Brazil ,which export the meat very large , I actualy live in the native place of south American Indians, even though I also india from south India as you pointed out , Today the Festival Pongal not only in Tamil nadu state , but also in Singapure ,Malaysia, , as Cattle the animal are well treated as the make sustainable living possible , not the machine tractor .Thus based on this old , we may think of ruralise modern mega cities with plants , animals all mixed like what happend in the road to new Delhi railway station . The Indian ways and approach are always rural ecological and sustainable bio systems sotaht several unemployed people can make biofuel from this mega city. Alcohol stove , simple briquete made using animal waste can make possible a true `Pongal festivel for all the citizen of the big city Coming to your question the mixture formulation we ARRIVED after 17 year of study to sue ethanol in compression engine is based on the two hypothesis as you pointed out : the micro emulsion USING SURFACTANT BD (alcohol, BD , Petro Diesel) and the co solvent effect , where as the amount of BD need not to be very high compared to the micro emulsion method , as this need more amount of BD and equipment too for making emulsion with an energy intensive process. We came to this new useful biofuel product formula not only by hypothesis , but using system engineering methods We do look for simulated experiments results by google search to validate our hypothesis and models .As Keith has pointed out some German group who also work with vegetable oil have also reported this blend as the one work too , yet not much details . Two years ago we worked out this biofuel blend , but we are not able to go further experiments wiith lack of funds.We wish to have fresh look on what Keith has told about the use of Ethanol and Castor oil , the the successful experiments done in Brazil the ready avilable raw material in Brazil. The Brazilian PETROBRAS has made patent on BD making diretly from Castor seeds and make viable the process by coproducts values , so that Brazil wish to be the Big Biofuel Producer of the world ( See who will be the world big player of BD in future here in this list and also in our recent wiki http://www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/ (www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com ) To be very clear to ver question , we can say that not that our work is hypothesis , but an system model , little proved yet we need much proven practical results, as we have very little evidence and I am very sorry to inform that much detailed studies not have been done , but we are on the half way. Our work is indeed very limited to the time and money as an all Academic University based sysem study, as Keith always refer it to be more limited , but we are unable to go till the end , but stay in the halfway..Rarely good fund is made as we get good results, as fund is over the good results cant be turned into more useful and
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators ; VO ou BD or Blend:Small System MODEL
Dear Chandan and all the list member Even though I am in Brazil ,which export the meat very large , I actualy live in the native place of south American Indians, even though I also india from south India as you pointed out , Today the Festival Pongal not only in Tamil nadu state , but also in Singapure ,Malaysia, , as Cattle the animal are well treated as the make sustainable living possible , not the machine tractor .Thus based on this old , we may think of ruralise modern mega cities with plants , animals all mixed like what happend in the road to new Delhi railway station . The Indian ways and approach are always rural ecological and sustainable bio systems sotaht several unemployed people can make biofuel from this mega city. Alcohol stove , simple briquete made using animal waste can make possible a true `Pongal festivel for all the citizen of the big city Coming to your question the mixture formulation we ARRIVED after 17 year of study to sue ethanol in compression engine is based on the two hypothesis as you pointed out : the micro emulsion USING SURFACTANT BD (alcohol, BD , Petro Diesel) and the co solvent effect , where as the amount of BD need not to be very high compared to the micro emulsion method , as this need more amount of BD and equipment too for making emulsion with an energy intensive process. We came to this new useful biofuel product formula not only by hypothesis , but using system engineering methods We do look for simulated experiments results by google search to validate our hypothesis and models .As Keith has pointed out some German group who also work with vegetable oil have also reported this blend as the one work too , yet not much details . Two years ago we worked out this biofuel blend , but we are not able to go further experiments wiith lack of funds.We wish to have fresh look on what Keith has told about the use of Ethanol and Castor oil , the the successful experiments done in Brazil the ready avilable raw material in Brazil. The Brazilian PETROBRAS has made patent on BD making diretly from Castor seeds and make viable the process by coproducts values , so that Brazil wish to be the Big Biofuel Producer of the world ( See who will be the world big player of BD in future here in this list and also in our recent wiki http://www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/ (www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com ) To be very clear to ver question , we can say that not that our work is hypothesis , but an system model , little proved yet we need much proven practical results, as we have very little evidence and I am very sorry to inform that much detailed studies not have been done , but we are on the half way. Our work is indeed very limited to the time and money as an all Academic University based sysem study, as Keith always refer it to be more limited , but we are unable to go till the end , but stay in the halfway..Rarely good fund is made as we get good results, as fund is over the good results cant be turned into more useful and we wish to go further. There are two known method or way to make rural energy , use VO , or BD , but for small system project we can think of one more way the hybrid one the biofuel blend .In this new approach we can use BD very less as it is also as an good co solvent additives and surfactant , thus we can have less problems with adoption of motor with this new biofuel blend compared to VO and as this need less energy, as BD making is not simple , but a complex one to be done in village level .The big compnay can make BD,the small farmer can thus can make his own localy made biofuel blend , to aviod the economic exploition of the big oil companies .Both the public and private oil company want to exploit the smal farmer buying the oil very cheap and selling the fuel very high .Thus sustainable food will not be possible with is present system ,as well documented by Keith in recent post here in our list . More over vegetable oil use can be economic problem as the price are expensive..The use of ethanol and BD extraction vegetable seed Principal the castor and cashew nut oil as well as the biol oil can be pratical method tommake biofuel .However in our system design approach we are limited to approach . Surely who uses the system need to do the home work experimenting the method. Thus practical work alone without undersatanding what one do , can be good for big biofuel as they wish to sell the products. Several public and private oil company have their patent related with BD as additives.I am sure som of our list members also knows , do Phd work .They will not make this open as they do not care for small systems and also small farmer. Our system analysis group wish one understand the system , the use it , not the block box ,practical ready made things. thus our approach compliments several hand made , self made biofuel project
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators ; VO ou BD or Blend:Small System MODEL
Dear Pannirselvam, Thanks for the detailed response. I gather that there is good opportunity to add to the experimentally established results on castor based biodiesel and the blends that might work well. I'm right now exploring a tie-up with one of the govt research labs and an agricultural university here in India to set up a small research project. Your inputs are very helpful for me to determine how to set the scope of the project.There is a lot of hard selling on jatropha going on around here. My purpose is to match the results (FUD?) available on jatropha based agrofuel number by number with results on castor based fuel. I posted a message last Sunday on the local scenario here regarding the new small car Tata Nano, but not sure if it got through to the list. Chandan Pagandai Pannirselvam wrote: Dear Chandan and all the list member Even though I am in Brazil ,which export the meat very large , I actualy live in the native place of south American Indians, even though I also india from south India as you pointed out , Today the Festival Pongal not only in Tamil nadu state , but also in Singapure ,Malaysia, , as Cattle the animal are well treated as the make sustainable living possible , not the machine tractor .Thus based on this old , we may think of ruralise modern mega cities with plants , animals all mixed like what happend in the road to new Delhi railway station . The Indian ways and approach are always rural ecological and sustainable bio systems sotaht several unemployed people can make biofuel from this mega city. Alcohol stove , simple briquete made using animal waste can make possible a true `Pongal festivel for all the citizen of the big city Coming to your question the mixture formulation we ARRIVED after 17 year of study to sue ethanol in compression engine is based on the two hypothesis as you pointed out : the micro emulsion USING SURFACTANT BD (alcohol, BD , Petro Diesel) and the co solvent effect , where as the amount of BD need not to be very high compared to the micro emulsion method , as this need more amount of BD and equipment too for making emulsion with an energy intensive process. We came to this new useful biofuel product formula not only by hypothesis , but using system engineering methods We do look for simulated experiments results by google search to validate our hypothesis and models .As Keith has pointed out some German group who also work with vegetable oil have also reported this blend as the one work too , yet not much details . Two years ago we worked out this biofuel blend , but we are not able to go further experiments wiith lack of funds.We wish to have fresh look on what Keith has told about the use of Ethanol and Castor oil , the the successful experiments done in Brazil the ready avilable raw material in Brazil. The Brazilian PETROBRAS has made patent on BD making diretly from Castor seeds and make viable the process by coproducts values , so that Brazil wish to be the Big Biofuel Producer of the world ( See who will be the world big player of BD in future here in this list and also in our recent wiki http://www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/ (www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com ) To be very clear to ver question , we can say that not that our work is hypothesis , but an system model , little proved yet we need much proven practical results, as we have very little evidence and I am very sorry to inform that much detailed studies not have been done , but we are on the half way. Our work is indeed very limited to the time and money as an all Academic University based sysem study, as Keith always refer it to be more limited , but we are unable to go till the end , but stay in the halfway..Rarely good fund is made as we get good results, as fund is over the good results cant be turned into more useful and we wish to go further. There are two known method or way to make rural energy , use VO , or BD , but for small system project we can think of one more way the hybrid one the biofuel blend .In this new approach we can use BD very less as it is also as an good co solvent additives and surfactant , thus we can have less problems with adoption of motor with this new biofuel blend compared to VO and as this need less energy, as BD making is not simple , but a complex one to be done in village level .The big compnay can make BD,the small farmer can thus can make his own localy made biofuel blend , to aviod the economic exploition of the big oil companies .Both the public and private oil company want to exploit the smal farmer buying the oil very cheap and selling the fuel very high .Thus sustainable food will not be possible with is present system ,as well documented by Keith in recent post here in our list . More over vegetable oil use can be economic problem as the price are
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Helo Thomas We are experimenting to use cashew nut shell liquid and spent SVO as additives to alcohol for gasoline engien .if we want we can suply from Brasil to you With regards pannirselvam 2008/1/7, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Keith, Thanks. Not only will your reply be helpful in the matter of the diesel generator, but may help me in my quest to run a gasoline car, legally, on homebrewed ethanol. If the water in 95% ethanol will not cause problems when I denature the ethanol with gasoline (2 gallons per 100 gal of ethanol), I can, with a permit, legally produce ethanol and run cars on it. I will pass on the information you have provided, and attempt to digest it all myself. Best to You, Tom - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Hello Tom Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. He says with less problem, I'm not sure if that means without problem but it might do. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? No experience, sorry, but some thoughts might help, FWIW. 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured The maximum purity you can get straight from the still is about 96%, 190-proof (95%) should be doable. This is from David Blume's excellent book Alcohol Can Be a Gas!: There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline, alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending on temperature and on water and alcohol content. In fact the bottled additive to combat water in your tank, generically known as Dry Gas, is nothing more than 200-proof alcohol, which causes the water to blend with the gasoline. In Brazil, they pump alcohol that contains about 4% water. In warm climates there is absolutely no problem in mixing wet alcohol with gasoline, but all of Brazil is not warm and balmy. When I visited there, a General Motors engineer showed me a study that accurately outlined the physical limits of mixing water, alcohol, and gasoline. According to the paper, published by the Society of Automotive Engineers, at about 68 deg F [20 deg C], alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline and not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline down to about minus 22 deg F! [-30 deg C] This means that those of you who live in milder climates don't have to go through the extra step of producing dry 200-proof alcohol to get it to mix properly with gasoline. And if you do live in minus 22 deg F, you would generally only have to use 200-proof during the winter and only if you were going back and forth between alcohol and gasoline in a non-flexible-fuel vehicle. Flexible-fuel vehicles will simply adjust to phase-separated fuel. Pagandai was probably referring to 96% ethanol, 4% water, but I guess 95% would do just as well. David Blume also refers to farmers' tests in the US using blends of petro-diesel, biodiesel and dry ethanol in diesel engines. Most used 50% ethanol, and 25% each of biodiesel and petro-diesel, but Blume says they only used the petro-diesel because it was cheaper than biodiesel at the time and 50-50 alcohol and biodiesel should be fine. He thinks a minimum of 20% biodiesel and 80% alcohol would also be fine, but says it needs testing (with a dynamometer and a knock-meter). What % water would be tolerated? Water in the fuel can be a Good Thing, it improves combustion efficiency and reduces emissions - just as long as it stays in the fuel and doesn't separate. This EPA
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators or BD or Blend
Happy new year for all the list members I am Pagandai Pannirselvam from Brazil. Very glad that after some 2 years of my post about blended biofuel , we have now come agian to make the debate. When I wrote about hydrated ethanol is E 96 azeotropic mixture as correctly pointed out by Keith. Recently I had made english translation of Brazilian practical experience in the page below which do not bring some practical experience of the use of fuel blend , instead of BD , in the Ecological system design wiki http://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/page/Ecological++Biofuel+%3ABrazilian+Experiencehttp://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/page/Ecological++Biofuel+%253ABrazilian+Experience The following is the text of Sylmar, CATI, SP Brasil Adopted resume of the translated text from Sylmar sited origional work in http://www.cati.sp.gov.br/_Cati2007/_produtos/SementesMudas/biodiesel.php From May 2003 until the second half of 2005, all tractors of Core Production of Seeds of Aguas de Santa Bárbara, CATI,SP ,BR with the jet engines direct or indirect, one of the unit Ataliba Leonel (MF235 said previously ) came to be moved with a mixture of vegetable oil (30%) more diesel oil (65%) and solvent (5% of petrol common). This mixture, called a biofuel, has very close viscosity of the oil diesel oil. A Mercedes-Benz truck, model 1313, year 1978, was also tested, running 6,000 kilometers with a mixture biofuel. The summary of the final results of these evaluations is transcribed below: Tractor / Truck * Manufacturing Year /Duration Test /Consumption average /Problems identified * Ford 5610 (ID) 1986 /1,000 hours 4.2 liters / hour no MF 65x (ID) 1972 /500 hours 3.5 liters / hour no MF 50x (II) 1972 /300 hours 2.5 liters / hour no CBT 2105 (ID) 1978 250 hours 8.7 liters / hour no MF 235 (II) 1978 1,000 hours 2.5 liters / hour no Mercedes-Benz 1313 (ID) 1978 6,000 km 3.5 km / liter none Final considerations: - The use of 100% vegetable oil as a fuel in place of diesel oil, it is possible to run , but also depends on appropriate technology of jet engines and systems to prevent potential problems caused, mainly, by non-combustion total of such oils because of high viscosity of them. The biofuel mixture consisting of 30% of vegetable oil + 65% of diesel oil from oil + 5% of gasoline with alcohol anhydrous (75% + 25%), used to replace the diesel oil from oil, appears to be a very interesting option for both direct injection engines and indirect, allowing the reduction of dependence on non-renewable fossil fuel and opening a significant market for the production of oil. This option must be considered and evaluated scientifically to obtain safe and definitive conclusions. The mixture biofuel cited in the period and the conditions in which it was tested, not shown any of the inconveniences caused by the total replacement of diesel oil by oil vegetable oils, in all cases evaluated. We must also highlight that for the tractor Ford 5610, strong indications of significant reduction of consumption were obtained during the period, which used the mixture. - Because of the possibility of: a) production of various oilseeds in all regions of Brazil, including in the semi-arid regions, b) obtaining and extraction of vegetable oils by pressing the cold and filtering directly by the severity level of rural property c) use of technology already available in European countries that allows the direct use of vegetable oils as fuel; feel the urgent need for that in our country, also devotes special attention to the alternative use of renewable fuel, in addition to the others who already are being used and encouraged, such as alcohol and biodiesel. For more information please contact and Regional Office of Andradina e SYLMAR , CATI ,SP, BR tel: 55 (18) 3722-3040. The amount much water can be good for IC motor , however the fuel efficiency willl be low. The role of Biodisel is more as an additive as same as castor oil use with hydrated ethanol , as solubility and miscibility of the only oil with ethanoo is castor oil, also having good lubricant additive properties . There is problems with blending of SVO and ethanol , as they do not mix well.several years experince to find cheap additive based on perfural , isoamyl alcohol can solve the problems in small quantity , but are found to be expansivos. The max amountof SVO found to be maxium 50 porcents petro deiesel , , other is there is problem of viscosity.The other need to be some fuel diluente petro diesel , kerosene, gasoline , alcohol and now also BD too. As mentioned in the following Brazilian experience and reports Gasoline poved to be better than alcohol to be miixed with with SVO as 75 porcent gasoline and 25 porcent ethanol However the use of BD can make possible the use of hyrated alcohol with hiher level as it is surfactant with hydrophilic and hydrophoic oil water phase miscibility , alcohol as co solvents.But as small amount as pointed out
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators or BD or Blend
Pannirselvam, Happy New Year to you from India. Good to see your mail after a long time, but I'm quite confused by it. I thought Keith only reported what YOU wrote earlier on 9/25/2006 (regarding mixing ~20% BD and 5-10% ethanol into (fresh/used) VO to reduce viscosity). Could you please specifically clarify if you or your associates have actually made this kind of mixture work or if you have seen this being done or if you are making a hypothesis that needs experimental verification? Thanks and regards. Chandan Pagandai Pannirselvam wrote: snip Based on what Keith has reported recently, castor oil 20 % can be used to 80 % ethanol hydrated ,I am sure again a significant amount of ethanol can be replaced using SVO with viscosity as the limit,thus there will not be no need for BD in rural areas to run generator. Milled Castor beans can be used extract ethanol from water , then pressed , mixed with the SVO , so taht the engine can run with out engine modification and also without the expensive BD . snip Yours truely Pagandai V pannirselvam 2008/1/7, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello Tom Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. He says with less problem, I'm not sure if that means without problem but it might do. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Hi Tom Keith, Thanks. Not only will your reply be helpful in the matter of the diesel generator, but may help me in my quest to run a gasoline car, legally, on homebrewed ethanol. Our TownAce has an Elsbett system and can run on petro-diesel, biodiesel or SVO, pure or in any mix (though we never use petro-diesel). It would be an interesting option to add 190-proof ethanol (or less) at up to 50% of the blend, or even 80% maybe. Real multi-fuel vehicle. Maybe I'll have the chance to explore it a bit further soon, buy a few cans of 95% ethanol and do some tests. Or something. If the water in 95% ethanol will not cause problems when I denature the ethanol with gasoline (2 gallons per 100 gal of ethanol), I can, with a permit, legally produce ethanol and run cars on it. Do a one-litre batch first? I will pass on the information you have provided, and attempt to digest it all myself. :-) Just a bunch of questions really, sounds good, but it'd be nice if somebody did have real on-the-ground experience of it. I agree with Fritz though, it's a risk, no guarantees, not much you could recommend to someone wanting a reliable solution. Best to You, And to you Tom Keith Tom - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Hello Tom Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. He says with less problem, I'm not sure if that means without problem but it might do. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? No experience, sorry, but some thoughts might help, FWIW. 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured The maximum purity you can get straight from the still is about 96%, 190-proof (95%) should be doable. This is from David Blume's excellent book Alcohol Can Be a Gas!: There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline, alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending on temperature and on water and alcohol content. In fact the bottled additive to combat water in your tank, generically known as Dry Gas, is nothing more than 200-proof alcohol, which causes the water to blend with the gasoline. In Brazil, they pump alcohol that contains about 4% water. In warm climates there is absolutely no problem in mixing wet alcohol with gasoline, but all of Brazil is not warm and balmy. When I visited there, a General Motors engineer showed me a study that accurately outlined the physical limits of mixing water, alcohol, and gasoline. According to the paper, published by the Society of Automotive Engineers, at about 68 deg F [20 deg C], alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline and not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline down to about minus 22 deg F! [-30 deg C] This means that those of you who live in milder climates don't have to go through the extra step of producing dry 200-proof alcohol to get it to mix properly with gasoline. And if you do live in minus 22 deg F, you would generally only have to use 200-proof during the winter and only if you were going back and forth between alcohol and gasoline in a non-flexible-fuel vehicle. Flexible-fuel vehicles will simply adjust to phase-separated fuel. Pagandai was probably referring to 96% ethanol, 4% water, but I guess 95% would do just as well. David Blume also refers to farmers' tests in the US using blends of petro-diesel, biodiesel and dry ethanol in diesel engines. Most used 50% ethanol, and 25% each of biodiesel and petro-diesel, but Blume says they only used the petro-diesel because it was cheaper than biodiesel at the time and 50
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Hi Tom, you could have achieved the low startload of havy motors with a Star Delta switch. Fritz - Original Message - From: Tom Thiel To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Regarding starting motors in our off-grid woodshop: we treat 1 horsepower motors as intermittent-use, starting and stopping them at will. Larger motors are paired with a 1 horsepower motor to start each machine. After it is up to speed, the main motor is turned on. This system reduces the start-loading of the large motors almost down to full load amp rating, and its elapsed time to less than a second, since the rotor is already spinning. If he has an inverter / battery system, the battery bank will charge variably as (headroom) power is available, reducing the light-load wet stacking potential in the system. I await the SVO discussion with great interest. Tom Thiel On 6 Jan, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote: Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can get it -- 180F or higher. The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel and ethanol seem pretty risky. One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently. Z On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured 3. Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol? I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150 (1.5%) Thanks, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080107/437ad854/attachment.html
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Thanks Zeke. It sounds like it would be like running WVO in a diesel car; warm up the engine using BD, heat up the WVO, purge the lines before shutting down. I'll pass on the concern re: wet stacking. Do you happen to know what WVO should be filtered to (ex 10 mincrons, 1 micron) to run in a diesel motor? Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can get it -- 180F or higher. The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel and ethanol seem pretty risky. One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently. Z On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured 3. Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol? I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150 (1.5%) Thanks, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Tom, Thanks for the reply. I'll pass on the info Tom - Original Message - From: Tom Thiel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Regarding starting motors in our off-grid woodshop: we treat 1 horsepower motors as intermittent-use, starting and stopping them at will. Larger motors are paired with a 1 horsepower motor to start each machine. After it is up to speed, the main motor is turned on. This system reduces the start-loading of the large motors almost down to full load amp rating, and its elapsed time to less than a second, since the rotor is already spinning. If he has an inverter / battery system, the battery bank will charge variably as (headroom) power is available, reducing the light-load wet stacking potential in the system. I await the SVO discussion with great interest. Tom Thiel On 6 Jan, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote: Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can get it -- 180F or higher. The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel and ethanol seem pretty risky. One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently. Z On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured 3. Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol? I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150 (1.5%) Thanks, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Thanks Fritz. I'll pass on the info regarding fuel consumption. He mentioned that he has been looking into getting a caterpillar diesel generator. I suspect that is where he got the 11.5 L/hour figure. He may have a reliable source for WVO. Using WVO rather than BD is appealing, because settling/filtering is more appealing to him than processing the oil into BD. He also has concerns regarding disposal of the glycerin produced. I'll pass along your concern regarding SVO or even a blend. I'm sure he can appreciate what you mean when you say that A breakdown would be costly, specially it would always happen in the worst time. Do you have any thoughts about using BD in a woodshop generator? I'll also pass along the info on your Genset and your coordinates. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Fritz Friesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Hi Tom, i have a 100KvA 600V Dieselgenerator with a 140 HP Mitsubishi Engine.The consumption by staedy 30A is a little less than 8 liters/hr. I would not take the chance and run the Gen on straigt WVO or even a blend of the same. The Genset has to perform staedy in a woodworkshop.A braekdown would be to costly,specially it would always happen in the worst time! My Genset by the way is for sale,it has 370hrs on and is in mint condition. If your woodworking student is interested please give him my coordinates www.boiseriestraditionnelles.ca Fritz - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:01 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured 3. Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol? I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150 (1.5%) Thanks, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/77db28bc/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Keith, Thanks. Not only will your reply be helpful in the matter of the diesel generator, but may help me in my quest to run a gasoline car, legally, on homebrewed ethanol. If the water in 95% ethanol will not cause problems when I denature the ethanol with gasoline (2 gallons per 100 gal of ethanol), I can, with a permit, legally produce ethanol and run cars on it. I will pass on the information you have provided, and attempt to digest it all myself. Best to You, Tom - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Hello Tom Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. He says with less problem, I'm not sure if that means without problem but it might do. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? No experience, sorry, but some thoughts might help, FWIW. 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured The maximum purity you can get straight from the still is about 96%, 190-proof (95%) should be doable. This is from David Blume's excellent book Alcohol Can Be a Gas!: There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline, alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending on temperature and on water and alcohol content. In fact the bottled additive to combat water in your tank, generically known as Dry Gas, is nothing more than 200-proof alcohol, which causes the water to blend with the gasoline. In Brazil, they pump alcohol that contains about 4% water. In warm climates there is absolutely no problem in mixing wet alcohol with gasoline, but all of Brazil is not warm and balmy. When I visited there, a General Motors engineer showed me a study that accurately outlined the physical limits of mixing water, alcohol, and gasoline. According to the paper, published by the Society of Automotive Engineers, at about 68 deg F [20 deg C], alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline and not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline down to about minus 22 deg F! [-30 deg C] This means that those of you who live in milder climates don't have to go through the extra step of producing dry 200-proof alcohol to get it to mix properly with gasoline. And if you do live in minus 22 deg F, you would generally only have to use 200-proof during the winter and only if you were going back and forth between alcohol and gasoline in a non-flexible-fuel vehicle. Flexible-fuel vehicles will simply adjust to phase-separated fuel. Pagandai was probably referring to 96% ethanol, 4% water, but I guess 95% would do just as well. David Blume also refers to farmers' tests in the US using blends of petro-diesel, biodiesel and dry ethanol in diesel engines. Most used 50% ethanol, and 25% each of biodiesel and petro-diesel, but Blume says they only used the petro-diesel because it was cheaper than biodiesel at the time and 50-50 alcohol and biodiesel should be fine. He thinks a minimum of 20% biodiesel and 80% alcohol would also be fine, but says it needs testing (with a dynamometer and a knock-meter). What % water would be tolerated? Water in the fuel can be a Good Thing, it improves combustion efficiency and reduces emissions - just as long as it stays in the fuel and doesn't separate. This EPA paper for instance, Bibliography of Water-Fuel Emulsions Studies, lists 23 studies, all with diesels: Following is a list of studies that are being considered for inclusion in work being done by EPA to assess the effects of water-fuel emulsions on emissions of oxides of nitrogen (NOx), hydrocarbons (HC), and particulate matter (PM
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can get it -- 180F or higher. The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel and ethanol seem pretty risky. One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently. Z On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured 3. Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol? I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150 (1.5%) Thanks, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Hi Tom, i have a 100KvA 600V Dieselgenerator with a 140 HP Mitsubishi Engine.The consumption by staedy 30A is a little less than 8 liters/hr. I would not take the chance and run the Gen on straigt WVO or even a blend of the same. The Genset has to perform staedy in a woodworkshop.A braekdown would be to costly,specially it would always happen in the worst time! My Genset by the way is for sale,it has 370hrs on and is in mint condition. If your woodworking student is interested please give him my coordinates www.boiseriestraditionnelles.ca Fritz - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:01 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured 3. Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol? I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150 (1.5%) Thanks, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/77db28bc/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Regarding starting motors in our off-grid woodshop: we treat 1 horsepower motors as intermittent-use, starting and stopping them at will. Larger motors are paired with a 1 horsepower motor to start each machine. After it is up to speed, the main motor is turned on. This system reduces the start-loading of the large motors almost down to full load amp rating, and its elapsed time to less than a second, since the rotor is already spinning. If he has an inverter / battery system, the battery bank will charge variably as (headroom) power is available, reducing the light-load wet stacking potential in the system. I await the SVO discussion with great interest. Tom Thiel On 6 Jan, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote: Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can get it -- 180F or higher. The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel and ethanol seem pretty risky. One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently. Z On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured 3. Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol? I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150 (1.5%) Thanks, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO squeeze
Doug, I would really doubt a label on the barrel would deter dumpster divers. You're probably right. I thought it might at least be more difficult to remove the barrel/WVO than just picking up the 18L containers. Of course it also makes it more difficult for me too. ... by claiming ownership, you would be making yourself liable. Hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the reply, Tom - Original Message - From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO squeeze I would really doubt a label on the barrel would deter dumpster divers. The only down sides I could imagine are; that by claiming ownership, you would be making yourself liable. For example if the oil would happen to leak into the environment for any reason, you may be held responsible for the costs of cleanup. A cost that could get very high if the WVO ever got onto water. As it is now the restaurants' liability insurance should cover it, but I'm sure a smile will come across the insurance adjustor's face the moment they see a property of label of someone other than their insured party. Rural or not the label may make responsible for any regulations your state may have regarding WVO storage, collection,disposal. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello, Is there any down side to placing a small barrel (15 or 30 gal/ ~ 55 or 115L) at restaurants for them to put their WVO in? I ask because I am finding increased hijacking of my WVO. This despite owners assuring me that they tell anyone who asks for the WVO: No. We already have someone picking it up (me). The restaurants I collect from have a nice, friendly, but informal relationship. They put plastic containers (cubies) out for me. I pick them up once a week. I noticed a plastic WVO barrel beside an veg oil dumpster that I used to pump oil from when I ran short. The chef said they put it in the barrel for a local guy. The WVO in the barrel seems to be left untouched. It doesn't have a label. I thought a label like Property of T Kelly might discourage hijackers . or does it just alert the powers that be to come bust my chops? I live in rural New York (USA). Comments appreciated, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO squeeze
On Dec 16, 2007 7:22 AM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug, I would really doubt a label on the barrel would deter dumpster divers. Depends on what the label said... if it made it clear that another homebrewer was collecting the oil, it might be respected, but if it appeared that some large corporation was collecting the oil, probably not. The food stores here have actually locked their dumpsters at times, and it has not significantly deterred people from getting fresh veggies from them, but it did increase incidents of vandalism of the dumpsters, and I know quite a few people who used to go shopping both inside the store and in the dumpster, and now they refuse to shop inside the store. You're probably right. I thought it might at least be more difficult to remove the barrel/WVO than just picking up the 18L containers. Of course it also makes it more difficult for me too. ... by claiming ownership, you would be making yourself liable. Hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the reply, Tom - Original Message - From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO squeeze I would really doubt a label on the barrel would deter dumpster divers. The only down sides I could imagine are; that by claiming ownership, you would be making yourself liable. For example if the oil would happen to leak into the environment for any reason, you may be held responsible for the costs of cleanup. A cost that could get very high if the WVO ever got onto water. As it is now the restaurants' liability insurance should cover it, but I'm sure a smile will come across the insurance adjustor's face the moment they see a property of label of someone other than their insured party. Rural or not the label may make responsible for any regulations your state may have regarding WVO storage, collection,disposal. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello, Is there any down side to placing a small barrel (15 or 30 gal/ ~ 55 or 115L) at restaurants for them to put their WVO in? I ask because I am finding increased hijacking of my WVO. This despite owners assuring me that they tell anyone who asks for the WVO: No. We already have someone picking it up (me). The restaurants I collect from have a nice, friendly, but informal relationship. They put plastic containers (cubies) out for me. I pick them up once a week. I noticed a plastic WVO barrel beside an veg oil dumpster that I used to pump oil from when I ran short. The chef said they put it in the barrel for a local guy. The WVO in the barrel seems to be left untouched. It doesn't have a label. I thought a label like Property of T Kelly might discourage hijackers . or does it just alert the powers that be to come bust my chops? I live in rural New York (USA). Comments appreciated, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO squeeze
I would really doubt a label on the barrel would deter dumpster divers. The only down sides I could imagine are; that by claiming ownership, you would be making yourself liable. For example if the oil would happen to leak into the environment for any reason, you may be held responsible for the costs of cleanup. A cost that could get very high if the WVO ever got onto water. As it is now the restaurants' liability insurance should cover it, but I'm sure a smile will come across the insurance adjustor's face the moment they see a property of label of someone other than their insured party. Rural or not the label may make responsible for any regulations your state may have regarding WVO storage, collection,disposal. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello, Is there any down side to placing a small barrel (15 or 30 gal/ ~ 55 or 115L) at restaurants for them to put their WVO in? I ask because I am finding increased hijacking of my WVO. This despite owners assuring me that they tell anyone who asks for the WVO: No. We already have someone picking it up (me). The restaurants I collect from have a nice, friendly, but informal relationship. They put plastic containers (cubies) out for me. I pick them up once a week. I noticed a plastic WVO barrel beside an veg oil dumpster that I used to pump oil from when I ran short. The chef said they put it in the barrel for a local guy. The WVO in the barrel seems to be left untouched. It doesn't have a label. I thought a label like Property of T Kelly might discourage hijackers . or does it just alert the powers that be to come bust my chops? I live in rural New York (USA). Comments appreciated, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO contaminated with diesel fuel
--- JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe I re ran some bio with Diesel in it and it was inert to the reaction and was intact afterward as near as I could tell. Jim - Original Message - From: Joe Streetmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:03 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO contaminated with diesel fuel I have been searching the archives with various keywords for a post about what happens when you try to react oil that has a few percent of petroleum diesel in it. I seem to remember the subject came up some time back but I cannot find it. Does anyone know what happens in this case? Does the petroleum spoil the reaction ( I am wondering about acid base reaction here) does it go along for the ride unaffected? If anyone knows or can remember the thread I would much appreciate to hear from you. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Diesel is an alkane. You often find that alkanes are not very reactive where as fatty acids react with sodium ethnoate to form methyl ester. fox ___ New Yahoo! Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes. http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://mail.yahoo.net/uk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO contaminated with diesel fuel
Thanks to Fox and James for the response. Joe fox mulder wrote: --- JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe I re ran some bio with Diesel in it and it was inert to the reaction and was intact afterward as near as I could tell. Jim - Original Message - From: Joe Streetmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:03 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO contaminated with diesel fuel I have been searching the archives with various keywords for a post about what happens when you try to react oil that has a few percent of petroleum diesel in it. I seem to remember the subject came up some time back but I cannot find it. Does anyone know what happens in this case? Does the petroleum spoil the reaction ( I am wondering about acid base reaction here) does it go along for the ride unaffected? If anyone knows or can remember the thread I would much appreciate to hear from you. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Diesel is an alkane. You often find that alkanes are not very reactive where as fatty acids react with sodium ethnoate to form methyl ester. fox ___ New Yahoo! Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes. http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://mail.yahoo.net/uk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO contaminated with diesel fuel
Joe I re ran some bio with Diesel in it and it was inert to the reaction and was intact afterward as near as I could tell. Jim - Original Message - From: Joe Streetmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:03 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO contaminated with diesel fuel I have been searching the archives with various keywords for a post about what happens when you try to react oil that has a few percent of petroleum diesel in it. I seem to remember the subject came up some time back but I cannot find it. Does anyone know what happens in this case? Does the petroleum spoil the reaction ( I am wondering about acid base reaction here) does it go along for the ride unaffected? If anyone knows or can remember the thread I would much appreciate to hear from you. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO damaging paint easy way to correct the problem
Biodiesel is an excellent cleaner. Try putting some b100 on a rag and then follow with hot soapy water. The BD will remove the wax also though. Joe Derick Giorchino wrote: Yup it's hard to remove and it gets sticker as time goes on. I know. I have used the citrus cleaner and it cuts the WVO very well with no damage to the paint but be aware there will be no wax ether. Good luck: Derick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Wilson Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 3:51 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] WVO damaging paint easy way to correct the problem Hi, No matter how much cleaning I did after I spilled a little WVO on the car I ended up with a big, fat stain on the side of my car. I just had my car painted and it is in show room condition so I did not want a fat stain destroying the looks. I came up with a very simple solution. I took all the fridge magnets off of the fridge and a plastic garbage bag. I pushed the closed end of the garbage bag into the filler spout hatch and secured it there with fridge magnets. I secured the rest of the garbage bag to the side of the car with additional fridge magnets. Now if I spill any WVO none gets on the paint. Works great. Yours truly John Wilson *** Wilsonia Farm Kennel Preserve Goldens Ph-Fax (902)665-2386) Web: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/new.htm Pups: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/pup.htm Politics:http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/elect.htm http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/c68.htm In Nova Scotia smoking permitted in designated areas only until 9:00 PM . After 9:00 it is okey to kill everyone. ^ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO damaging paint easy way to correct the problem
Yup it's hard to remove and it gets sticker as time goes on. I know. I have used the citrus cleaner and it cuts the WVO very well with no damage to the paint but be aware there will be no wax ether. Good luck: Derick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Wilson Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 3:51 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] WVO damaging paint easy way to correct the problem Hi, No matter how much cleaning I did after I spilled a little WVO on the car I ended up with a big, fat stain on the side of my car. I just had my car painted and it is in show room condition so I did not want a fat stain destroying the looks. I came up with a very simple solution. I took all the fridge magnets off of the fridge and a plastic garbage bag. I pushed the closed end of the garbage bag into the filler spout hatch and secured it there with fridge magnets. I secured the rest of the garbage bag to the side of the car with additional fridge magnets. Now if I spill any WVO none gets on the paint. Works great. Yours truly John Wilson *** Wilsonia Farm Kennel Preserve Goldens Ph-Fax (902)665-2386) Web: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/new.htm Pups: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/pup.htm Politics:http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/elect.htm http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/c68.htm In Nova Scotia smoking permitted in designated areas only until 9:00 PM . After 9:00 it is okey to kill everyone. ^ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Very funny Tom! Designer exhausts! You should patent that idea. Recently I was wondering if I could make biofuel out of citrus oil and go off smelling like an orage blossom. LOL. But seriously ( actually I am seriously curious about citrus oil) now when it comes to the pour point some of these aromatic oils may make a low temperature fuel. ?? I have been talking to a farmer who runs an organic dairy farm and he is growing a crop of winter rape this fall. He claims you can mix the SVO with winter diesel and don't need to trans esterify. I am skeptical of course. I have very little info on the winter canola. Do you or does anyone on the list have experience with it? Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Luke, So chicken fat it is. Maybe. Did you use bottom heat? as in a pot on the stove? If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom? If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating element? The white stuff , about 5%, might be water. I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F /~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello. Last year I winterized my BD as described at JTF. This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily becomes heating fuel for my house ... tank in basement, the other stuff becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold. I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease solid, had to melt it. It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the bill. Good luck w the WVO By the way, what do you get for a titration on it? Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Tom, I heated to 170f as you suggested. It became transluent and then congelled again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks like black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest brown goo. But it looks like no water. So chicken fat it is. Any point in processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? At what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling? Oh, and any idea what the white layer is? Thanks for your help. :-) Luke From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400 Luke, If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have some animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make excellent warm weather fuel. Of course, it might be water. Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the dried WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon cooling it probably contains animal fat. Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it settles. A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids on the bottom. My question is the middle brown layer. It seems - and I havent run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it. Is it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off the water? :-) Luke _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Depends on the mix, I imagine. 5% rapeseed oil would be fine w/ winter diesel Joe Street wrote: Very funny Tom! Designer exhausts! You should patent that idea. Recently I was wondering if I could make biofuel out of citrus oil and go off smelling like an orage blossom. LOL. But seriously ( actually I am seriously curious about citrus oil) now when it comes to the pour point some of these aromatic oils may make a low temperature fuel. ?? I have been talking to a farmer who runs an organic dairy farm and he is growing a crop of winter rape this fall. He claims you can mix the SVO with winter diesel and don't need to trans esterify. I am skeptical of course. I have very little info on the winter canola. Do you or does anyone on the list have experience with it? Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Luke, So chicken fat it is. Maybe. Did you use bottom heat? as in a pot on the stove? If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom? If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating element? The white stuff , about 5%, might be water. I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F /~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello. Last year I winterized my BD as described at JTF. This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily becomes heating fuel for my house ... tank in basement, the other stuff becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold. I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease solid, had to melt it. It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the bill. Good luck w the WVO By the way, what do you get for a titration on it? Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Tom, I heated to 170f as you suggested. It became transluent and then congelled again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks like black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest brown goo. But it looks like no water. So chicken fat it is. Any point in processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? At what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling? Oh, and any idea what the white layer is? Thanks for your help. :-) Luke From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400 Luke, If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have some animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make excellent warm weather fuel. Of course, it might be water. Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the dried WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon cooling it probably contains animal fat. Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it settles. A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids on the bottom. My question is the middle brown layer. It seems - and I havent run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it. Is it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off the water? :-) Luke _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Hi Mike; We are talking about WINTER rape here. (I'm not referring to indoor activities on those long dark cold Canadian winters). According to this farmer winter rape is known in europe and not much here, but it is a variety of rape seed which has oil of much lower viscosity and has a low pour point. Several cultivars are described here: http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1996/v3-272.html I can find very little information to confirm that the winter hardy variety actually produces oil which is better for winter use. I'm looking for confirmation from list members if anybody knows. Joe Mike Weaver wrote: Depends on the mix, I imagine. 5% rapeseed oil would be fine w/ winter diesel Joe Street wrote: Very funny Tom! Designer exhausts! You should patent that idea. Recently I was wondering if I could make biofuel out of citrus oil and go off smelling like an orage blossom. LOL. But seriously ( actually I am seriously curious about citrus oil) now when it comes to the pour point some of these aromatic oils may make a low temperature fuel. ?? I have been talking to a farmer who runs an organic dairy farm and he is growing a crop of winter rape this fall. He claims you can mix the SVO with winter diesel and don't need to trans esterify. I am skeptical of course. I have very little info on the winter canola. Do you or does anyone on the list have experience with it? Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Luke, So chicken fat it is. Maybe. Did you use bottom heat? as in a pot on the stove? If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom? If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating element? The white stuff , about 5%, might be water. I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F /~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello. Last year I winterized my BD as described at JTF. This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily becomes heating fuel for my house ... tank in basement, the other stuff becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold. I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease solid, had to melt it. It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the bill. Good luck w the WVO By the way, what do you get for a titration on it? Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Tom, I heated to 170f as you suggested. It became transluent and then congelled again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks like black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest brown goo. But it looks like no water. So chicken fat it is. Any point in processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? At what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling? Oh, and any idea what the white layer is? Thanks for your help. :-) Luke From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400 Luke, If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have some animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make excellent warm weather fuel. Of course, it might be water. Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the dried WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon cooling it probably contains animal fat. Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it settles. A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids on the bottom. My question is the middle brown layer. It seems - and I havent run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it. Is it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off the water? :-) Luke
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
citrus oil is essentially a mixture of hydrocarbons, not lipids so it couldn't be converted to methyl esters like biodiesel. That doesn't mean however that it couldn't be blended with bio or dino diesel and be successfully exploited as a fuel. Joe Street wrote: Very funny Tom! Designer exhausts! You should patent that idea. Recently I was wondering if I could make biofuel out of citrus oil and go off smelling like an orage blossom. LOL. But seriously ( actually I am seriously curious about citrus oil) now when it comes to the pour point some of these aromatic oils may make a low temperature fuel. ?? I have been talking to a farmer who runs an organic dairy farm and he is growing a crop of winter rape this fall. He claims you can mix the SVO with winter diesel and don't need to trans esterify. I am skeptical of course. I have very little info on the winter canola. Do you or does anyone on the list have experience with it? Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Luke, So chicken fat it is. Maybe. Did you use bottom heat? as in a pot on the stove? If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom? If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating element? The white stuff , about 5%, might be water. I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F /~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello. Last year I winterized my BD as described at JTF. This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily becomes heating fuel for my house ... tank in basement, the other stuff becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold. I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease solid, had to melt it. It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the bill. Good luck w the WVO By the way, what do you get for a titration on it? Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Tom, I heated to 170f as you suggested. It became transluent and then congelled again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks like black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest brown goo. But it looks like no water. So chicken fat it is. Any point in processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? At what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling? Oh, and any idea what the white layer is? Thanks for your help. :-) Luke From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400 Luke, If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have some animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make excellent warm weather fuel. Of course, it might be water. Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the dried WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon cooling it probably contains animal fat. Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it settles. A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids on the bottom. My question is the middle brown layer. It seems - and I havent run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it. Is it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off the water? :-) Luke _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Hi Bob; Yes that was my thinking. What about using them as an additive to modify B100?? Joe bob allen wrote: citrus oil is essentially a mixture of hydrocarbons, not lipids so it couldn't be converted to methyl esters like biodiesel. That doesn't mean however that it couldn't be blended with bio or dino diesel and be successfully exploited as a fuel. Joe Street wrote: Very funny Tom! Designer exhausts! You should patent that idea. Recently I was wondering if I could make biofuel out of citrus oil and go off smelling like an orage blossom. LOL. But seriously ( actually I am seriously curious about citrus oil) now when it comes to the pour point some of these aromatic oils may make a low temperature fuel. ?? I have been talking to a farmer who runs an organic dairy farm and he is growing a crop of winter rape this fall. He claims you can mix the SVO with winter diesel and don't need to trans esterify. I am skeptical of course. I have very little info on the winter canola. Do you or does anyone on the list have experience with it? Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Luke, So chicken fat it is. Maybe. Did you use bottom heat? as in a pot on the stove? If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom? If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating element? The white stuff , about 5%, might be water. I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F /~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello. Last year I winterized my BD as described at JTF. This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily becomes heating fuel for my house ... tank in basement, the other stuff becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold. I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease solid, had to melt it. It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the bill. Good luck w the WVO By the way, what do you get for a titration on it? Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Tom, I heated to 170f as you suggested. It became transluent and then congelled again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks like black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest brown goo. But it looks like no water. So chicken fat it is. Any point in processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? At what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling? Oh, and any idea what the white layer is? Thanks for your help. :-) Luke From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400 Luke, If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have some animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make excellent warm weather fuel. Of course, it might be water. Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the dried WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon cooling it probably contains animal fat. Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it settles. A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids on the bottom. My question is the middle brown layer. It seems - and I havent run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it. Is it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off the water? :-) Luke _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
I don't see why not. Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; Yes that was my thinking. What about using them as an additive to modify B100?? Joe bob allen wrote: citrus oil is essentially a mixture of hydrocarbons, not lipids so it couldn't be converted to methyl esters like biodiesel. That doesn't mean however that it couldn't be blended with bio or dino diesel and be successfully exploited as a fuel. Joe Street wrote: Very funny Tom! Designer exhausts! You should patent that idea. Recently I was wondering if I could make biofuel out of citrus oil and go off smelling like an orage blossom. LOL. But seriously ( actually I am seriously curious about citrus oil) now when it comes to the pour point some of these aromatic oils may make a low temperature fuel. ?? I have been talking to a farmer who runs an organic dairy farm and he is growing a crop of winter rape this fall. He claims you can mix the SVO with winter diesel and don't need to trans esterify. I am skeptical of course. I have very little info on the winter canola. Do you or does anyone on the list have experience with it? Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Luke, So chicken fat it is. Maybe. Did you use bottom heat? as in a pot on the stove? If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom? If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating element? The white stuff , about 5%, might be water. I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F /~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello. Last year I winterized my BD as described at JTF. This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily becomes heating fuel for my house ... tank in basement, the other stuff becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold. I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease solid, had to melt it. It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the bill. Good luck w the WVO By the way, what do you get for a titration on it? Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Tom, I heated to 170f as you suggested. It became transluent and then congelled again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks like black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest brown goo. But it looks like no water. So chicken fat it is. Any point in processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? At what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling? Oh, and any idea what the white layer is? Thanks for your help. :-) Luke From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400 Luke, If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have some animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make excellent warm weather fuel. Of course, it might be water. Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the dried WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon cooling it probably contains animal fat. Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it settles. A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids on the bottom. My question is the middle brown layer. It seems - and I havent run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it. Is it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off the water? :-) Luke _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Joe, Too late to patent designer exhaust. Somebody told me an exhaust aroma additive is already on the market. I have little experience using canola and none w. winter canola. I would expect varieties of the same plant, adapted to different environmental conditions to have biochemical variations that favor survival. Plants adapted to cold conditions may well produce oils with lower cloud points greater fluidity at low temps. I suspect winter canola grows at a colder time of year. Can you get samples of both? Test/compare viscosities? Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Very funny Tom! Designer exhausts! You should patent that idea. Recently I was wondering if I could make biofuel out of citrus oil and go off smelling like an orage blossom. LOL. But seriously ( actually I am seriously curious about citrus oil) now when it comes to the pour point some of these aromatic oils may make a low temperature fuel. ?? I have been talking to a farmer who runs an organic dairy farm and he is growing a crop of winter rape this fall. He claims you can mix the SVO with winter diesel and don't need to trans esterify. I am skeptical of course. I have very little info on the winter canola. Do you or does anyone on the list have experience with it? Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Luke, So chicken fat it is. Maybe. Did you use bottom heat? as in a pot on the stove? If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom? If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating element? The white stuff , about 5%, might be water. I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F /~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello. Last year I winterized my BD as described at JTF. This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily becomes heating fuel for my house ... tank in basement, the other stuff becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold. I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease solid, had to melt it. It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the bill. Good luck w the WVO By the way, what do you get for a titration on it? Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Tom, I heated to 170f as you suggested. It became transluent and then congelled again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks like black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest brown goo. But it looks like no water. So chicken fat it is. Any point in processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? At what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling? Oh, and any idea what the white layer is? Thanks for your help. :-) Luke From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400 Luke, If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have some animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make excellent warm weather fuel. Of course, it might be water. Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the dried WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon cooling it probably contains animal fat. Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it settles. A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids on the bottom. My question is the middle brown layer. It seems - and I havent run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it. Is it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off the water? :-) Luke
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
For me the white layer is non reacted saturated monoglicerides, diglicerides and fat. I made a second step sterification and the layer did not formed again. It seems that more yield is get with a two stage process (using 60% and then 40% of methanol and soda) than a single step one. That white layer is not formed with virgin vegetable oil. ;-) Cheers - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it settles. A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids on the bottom. My question is the middle brown layer. It seems - and I havent run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it. Is it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off the water? :-) Luke _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Visita http://www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar más rápido en Internet. Tutopia es Internet para todos. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Tom, I have a tank less hot water heater that I can easily adjust the temp from 100 to 176 F, I put the oil in a pete bottle, filled the sink with 176f water and set the bottle in it. I checked it after a few minutes and it was in the process of turning translucent. The next morning it had stratified as I indicated. I neglected to tell you that the white layer seem almost solid. When I tipped the bottle it wanted to stay in place. Later today I will pour it into a pan and see if I get any snap-crackle-pop, indicating that Andres is correct. I am using BD for a backup generator for my solar system. It can get very cold (sub zero) and my generator is in a shed attached to the house. Due to ventilation requirements it gets almost as cold in the shed. Now that I am 100% clean on the electrical side, I would love to reduce my propane use. I use propane for heat, and hot water. What kind of furnace are you using to burn BD? I am looking for some kind of free standing stove to heat our basement (which in turn will heat the house, I have in-floor propane heated hydronics in the basement floor, which I designed to then heat the whole house). We were planning to put in a wood stove, but after I started the BD project I am leaning hard toward an oil stove. Love to hear how bacon and egg exhaust goes. And lastly YOU BUSTED ME! (I don't titrate) I spent more than a week trying titration, and ended in total frustration. I could never get it to work. So using poor man titration, and lots of trial and error with the blender, I use the two stage process with beautiful results (passes the quality tests with flying colors). My formula is 10g KOH/1 liter Methanol. 25% Methoxide. 75% first stage - 25% second. 3 vigorous washes and its done! :-) Luke From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 21:33:35 -0400 Luke, So chicken fat it is. Maybe. Did you use bottom heat? as in a pot on the stove? If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom? If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating element? The white stuff , about 5%, might be water. I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F /~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello. Last year I winterized my BD as described at JTF. This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily becomes heating fuel for my house ... tank in basement, the other stuff becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold. I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease solid, had to melt it. It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the bill. Good luck w the WVO By the way, what do you get for a titration on it? Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Tom, I heated to 170f as you suggested. It became transluent and then congelled again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks like black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest brown goo. But it looks like no water. So chicken fat it is. Any point in processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? At what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling? Oh, and any idea what the white layer is? Thanks for your help. :-) Luke From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400 Luke, If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have some animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make excellent warm weather fuel. Of course, it might be water. Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the dried WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon cooling it probably contains animal fat. Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO The waste veg oil
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Luke, The solid white layer is probably animal fat ... bacon grease? As long as the petro diesel was winterized, my 70% BD : 30% petro didn't gel even at temps of -10F (-23C). A friend of mine has an outside storage tank and will go 50 : 50 BD to dino diesel. I think you can use BD in any burner. You may have to make some minor adjustments. I have a Beckett AF oil burner and a Burnham boiler. At a 50 : 50 mix I started to have some startup problems and had to increase pump pressure from 100 to 125 psi. I also switched from a 1.0 gph/80 degree nozzle to 0.75gph/80. I decreased air flow and installed a Webster Bio Pump with viton seals (compatible w BD). It now runs on 100% biodiesel. Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Tom, I have a tank less hot water heater that I can easily adjust the temp from 100 to 176 F, I put the oil in a pete bottle, filled the sink with 176f water and set the bottle in it. I checked it after a few minutes and it was in the process of turning translucent. The next morning it had stratified as I indicated. I neglected to tell you that the white layer seem almost solid. When I tipped the bottle it wanted to stay in place. Later today I will pour it into a pan and see if I get any snap-crackle-pop, indicating that Andres is correct. I am using BD for a backup generator for my solar system. It can get very cold (sub zero) and my generator is in a shed attached to the house. Due to ventilation requirements it gets almost as cold in the shed. Now that I am 100% clean on the electrical side, I would love to reduce my propane use. I use propane for heat, and hot water. What kind of furnace are you using to burn BD? I am looking for some kind of free standing stove to heat our basement (which in turn will heat the house, I have in-floor propane heated hydronics in the basement floor, which I designed to then heat the whole house). We were planning to put in a wood stove, but after I started the BD project I am leaning hard toward an oil stove. Love to hear how bacon and egg exhaust goes. And lastly YOU BUSTED ME! (I don't titrate) I spent more than a week trying titration, and ended in total frustration. I could never get it to work. So using poor man titration, and lots of trial and error with the blender, I use the two stage process with beautiful results (passes the quality tests with flying colors). My formula is 10g KOH/1 liter Methanol. 25% Methoxide. 75% first stage - 25% second. 3 vigorous washes and its done! :-) Luke From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 21:33:35 -0400 Luke, So chicken fat it is. Maybe. Did you use bottom heat? as in a pot on the stove? If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom? If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating element? The white stuff , about 5%, might be water. I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F /~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello. Last year I winterized my BD as described at JTF. This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily becomes heating fuel for my house ... tank in basement, the other stuff becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold. I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease solid, had to melt it. It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the bill. Good luck w the WVO By the way, what do you get for a titration on it? Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Tom, I heated to 170f as you suggested. It became transluent and then congelled again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks like black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest brown goo. But it looks like no water. So chicken fat it is. Any point in processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Hi Luke, I get oil like this from one of my suppliers. I don't get the black sediment layer but I do get two distinct layers even after thorough dewatering. The upper layer is clear oil while the lower layer is caramel coloured and about as solid as soft butter. When it was warmed up, it would melt to a liquid and become much darker, coffee coloured. (espresso) I have separated this lower layer out and tried making a test batch with it, with reasonable results. My best results were with the acid/base process. Dewater your oil thoroughly and try a test batch, it is the best way to know for sure if it is usable or not. Regards, Bob - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 10:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Tom, I heated to 170f as you suggested. It became transluent and then congelled again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks like black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest brown goo. But it looks like no water. So chicken fat it is. Any point in processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? At what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling? Oh, and any idea what the white layer is? Thanks for your help. :-) Luke From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400 Luke, If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have some animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make excellent warm weather fuel. Of course, it might be water. Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the dried WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon cooling it probably contains animal fat. Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it settles. A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids on the bottom. My question is the middle brown layer. It seems - and I havent run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it. Is it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off the water? :-) Luke _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Tom, I heated to 170f as you suggested. It became transluent and then congelled again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks like black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest brown goo. But it looks like no water. So chicken fat it is. Any point in processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? At what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling? Oh, and any idea what the white layer is? Thanks for your help. :-) Luke From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400 Luke, If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have some animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make excellent warm weather fuel. Of course, it might be water. Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the dried WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon cooling it probably contains animal fat. Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it settles. A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids on the bottom. My question is the middle brown layer. It seems - and I havent run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it. Is it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off the water? :-) Luke _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Luke, So chicken fat it is. Maybe. Did you use bottom heat? as in a pot on the stove? If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom? If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating element? The white stuff , about 5%, might be water. I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F /~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello. Last year I winterized my BD as described at JTF. This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily becomes heating fuel for my house ... tank in basement, the other stuff becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold. I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease solid, had to melt it. It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the bill. Good luck w the WVO By the way, what do you get for a titration on it? Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Tom, I heated to 170f as you suggested. It became transluent and then congelled again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks like black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest brown goo. But it looks like no water. So chicken fat it is. Any point in processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? At what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling? Oh, and any idea what the white layer is? Thanks for your help. :-) Luke From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400 Luke, If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have some animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make excellent warm weather fuel. Of course, it might be water. Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the dried WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon cooling it probably contains animal fat. Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it settles. A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids on the bottom. My question is the middle brown layer. It seems - and I havent run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it. Is it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off the water? :-) Luke _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
I've found that if I leave it in the settling tank longer, it will settle out even more. Smaller water droplets seem to take longer to sink and separate, (or conglomerate with other droplets) when encased in their oil surroundings. I'd use solar if I wanted to heat and retrieve the oil from it, but the last time I cleaned out the settling tank, I blended that layer with my compost pile, its temperature went up to 140 F, and stayed there for a week. Happy bacteria! (I did mix saw dust and grass clippings with it to help absorb it, and make it easier to move around into the pile.) Just heating that layer, not necessarily to water's boiling point will facilitate the separation though. doug swanson WM LUKE MATHISEN wrote: The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it settles. A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids on the bottom. My question is the middle brown layer. It seems - and I havent run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it. Is it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off the water? :-) Luke _ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Contentment comes not from having more, but from wanting less. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Luke, If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have some animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make excellent warm weather fuel. Of course, it might be water. Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the dried WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon cooling it probably contains animal fat. Tom - Original Message - From: WM LUKE MATHISEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it settles. A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids on the bottom. My question is the middle brown layer. It seems - and I havent run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it. Is it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off the water? :-) Luke _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Joe, In Israel you will see the same, but with efficient solar panels built together with an insulated storage. It is however an enormous difference in efficiency. The black cisterns have a very low efficiency and you can only collect some warm water at the end of sunny days. The main functionality of cisterns on the roof, is to give distribution pressure. It is also very large differences in the coloring methods, what is looking black to us, can have very different absorption factors. A Swedish company is the market leader in delivering the solar collection elements for solar panels. They deliver them in rolls of double black colored copper sheets. Before mounting they are cut to size and pressurized to form the space for water passage. Efficient solar panel construction was researched around 40 years ago in Almeria, Spain, a joint project between technical universities of Sweden and Spain. The Swedish part was managed by prof. Folke Petterson, KTH, who also used some simulation work with the energy transmission program that we have. Hakan At 00:40 28/04/2006, you wrote: Almost every house and building has a big black cistern on the roof. The are everywhere you look. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15 years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5 years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast. Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of thermal solar systems also. Hakan At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: Zeke, Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . snip Ever been to Mexico? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Zeke, Solar panels was very common in California 100 years ago. Was replaced by other hot water heaters in a successful marketing campaign from the energy companies. Hakan At 20:21 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yeah -- I think that part of it is that people are used to seeing really ugly solar thermal installations put in during the 80's, and not much has been installed here since then. And then they think that solar thermal is old technology that has been superceded by PV. Not knowing the different between electricity and hot water helps... one guy I talked to actually thought that his solar thermal panels stored sunlight somehow, and didn't actually have a clue that they heated water up. He wanted them taken down because they came with the house and he didn't want solar any more great thinking since natural gas prices keep jumping up here... On 4/27/06, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zeke, Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . Normal thermal solar panels have 35-40% efficiency. A very good and cost effective way to use solar. Thermal solar for hot water will pay for itself in 3 to 5 years and heating around 5 to 8 years. Compared this to PV that are more around 15 - 20 years. The normally used PV cells have 8-12% efficiency, even if you can get very expensive and less used cells that have up to 35% efficiency. Hakan At 18:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and can easily achieve the temperatures required. On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Do you have any information on IR absorption of common black materials, ie flat black paint types which are resonably good? I plan to do something with it one day but would like to make something myself of reasonable efficiency rather than buying a turnkey solution. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, In Israel you will see the same, but with efficient solar panels built together with an insulated storage. It is however an enormous difference in efficiency. The black cisterns have a very low efficiency and you can only collect some warm water at the end of sunny days. The main functionality of cisterns on the roof, is to give distribution pressure. It is also very large differences in the coloring methods, what is looking black to us, can have very different absorption factors. A Swedish company is the market leader in delivering the solar collection elements for solar panels. They deliver them in rolls of double black colored copper sheets. Before mounting they are cut to size and pressurized to form the space for water passage. Efficient solar panel construction was researched around 40 years ago in Almeria, Spain, a joint project between technical universities of Sweden and Spain. The Swedish part was managed by prof. Folke Petterson, KTH, who also used some simulation work with the energy transmission program that we have. Hakan At 00:40 28/04/2006, you wrote: Almost every house and building has a big black cistern on the roof. The are everywhere you look. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15 years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5 years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast. Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of thermal solar systems also. Hakan At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: Zeke, Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . snip Ever been to Mexico? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Howdy Joe, don't stop with IR, you want to absorb all wavelengths- there is more energy available in the visible/UV than the IR. Any flat black material will absorb all wavelengths (not counting high energy stuff like gamma rays). what you need is a material which not only absorbs, but also conducts the heat absorbed rather than radiating it away in the IR. (Wein's displacement) Joe Street wrote: Do you have any information on IR absorption of common black materials, ie flat black paint types which are resonably good? I plan to do something with it one day but would like to make something myself of reasonable efficiency rather than buying a turnkey solution. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, In Israel you will see the same, but with efficient solar panels built together with an insulated storage. It is however an enormous difference in efficiency. The black cisterns have a very low efficiency and you can only collect some warm water at the end of sunny days. The main functionality of cisterns on the roof, is to give distribution pressure. It is also very large differences in the coloring methods, what is looking black to us, can have very different absorption factors. A Swedish company is the market leader in delivering the solar collection elements for solar panels. They deliver them in rolls of double black colored copper sheets. Before mounting they are cut to size and pressurized to form the space for water passage. Efficient solar panel construction was researched around 40 years ago in Almeria, Spain, a joint project between technical universities of Sweden and Spain. The Swedish part was managed by prof. Folke Petterson, KTH, who also used some simulation work with the energy transmission program that we have. Hakan At 00:40 28/04/2006, you wrote: Almost every house and building has a big black cistern on the roof. The are everywhere you look. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15 years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5 years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast. Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of thermal solar systems also. Hakan At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: Zeke, Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . snip Ever been to Mexico? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Really? I was under the impression 65% of the incoming solar radiation was IR and NIR. Well I was thinking of putting flat black paint on copper pipes and having a sun tracking parabolic mirror beneath them. I was just wondering if anyone had any data on flat black paint types as the last post indicated they can have large variances in absorbtion. Joe bob allen wrote: Howdy Joe, don't stop with IR, you want to absorb all wavelengths- there is more energy available in the visible/UV than the IR. Any flat black material will absorb all wavelengths (not counting high energy stuff like gamma rays). what you need is a material which not only absorbs, but also conducts the heat absorbed rather than radiating it away in the IR. (Wein's displacement) Joe Street wrote: Do you have any information on IR absorption of common black materials, ie flat black paint types which are resonably good? I plan to do something with it one day but would like to make something myself of reasonable efficiency rather than buying a turnkey solution. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, In Israel you will see the same, but with efficient solar panels built together with an insulated storage. It is however an enormous difference in efficiency. The black cisterns have a very low efficiency and you can only collect some warm water at the end of sunny days. The main functionality of cisterns on the roof, is to give distribution pressure. It is also very large differences in the coloring methods, what is looking black to us, can have very different absorption factors. A Swedish company is the market leader in delivering the solar collection elements for solar panels. They deliver them in rolls of double black colored copper sheets. Before mounting they are cut to size and pressurized to form the space for water passage. Efficient solar panel construction was researched around 40 years ago in Almeria, Spain, a joint project between technical universities of Sweden and Spain. The Swedish part was managed by prof. Folke Petterson, KTH, who also used some simulation work with the energy transmission program that we have. Hakan At 00:40 28/04/2006, you wrote: Almost every house and building has a big black cistern on the roof. The are everywhere you look. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15 years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5 years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast. Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of thermal solar systems also. Hakan At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: Zeke, Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . snip Ever been to Mexico? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
I do have some info on absorbance/emittance of various media, but not easily at hand. I'll try to look it up. What I recall is that flat black paint is about 80% absorbance, and also 80% emittance. Not sure about the difference between different types of black paint. The selective surfaces used in most solar thermal collectors (black chrome and such) aren't much different for absorbance, but are much less emissive -- something like 15% or so... I'll try to find the actual table of values I'm thinking of and email it. On 4/28/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Really? I was under the impression 65% of the incoming solar radiation was IR and NIR. Well I was thinking of putting flat black paint on copper pipes and having a sun tracking parabolic mirror beneath them. I was just wondering if anyone had any data on flat black paint types as the last post indicated they can have large variances in absorbtion. Joe bob allen wrote: Howdy Joe, don't stop with IR, you want to absorb all wavelengths- there is more energy available in the visible/UV than the IR. Any flat black material will absorb all wavelengths (not counting high energy stuff like gamma rays). what you need is a material which not only absorbs, but also conducts the heat absorbed rather than radiating it away in the IR. (Wein's displacement) Joe Street wrote: Do you have any information on IR absorption of common black materials, ie flat black paint types which are resonably good? I plan to do something with it one day but would like to make something myself of reasonable efficiency rather than buying a turnkey solution. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, In Israel you will see the same, but with efficient solar panels built together with an insulated storage. It is however an enormous difference in efficiency. The black cisterns have a very low efficiency and you can only collect some warm water at the end of sunny days. The main functionality of cisterns on the roof, is to give distribution pressure. It is also very large differences in the coloring methods, what is looking black to us, can have very different absorption factors. A Swedish company is the market leader in delivering the solar collection elements for solar panels. They deliver them in rolls of double black colored copper sheets. Before mounting they are cut to size and pressurized to form the space for water passage. Efficient solar panel construction was researched around 40 years ago in Almeria, Spain, a joint project between technical universities of Sweden and Spain. The Swedish part was managed by prof. Folke Petterson, KTH, who also used some simulation work with the energy transmission program that we have. Hakan At 00:40 28/04/2006, you wrote: Almost every house and building has a big black cistern on the roof. The are everywhere you look. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15 years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5 years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast. Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of thermal solar systems also. Hakan At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: Zeke, Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . snip Ever been to Mexico? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: "Ryan Pope" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is variations on heating and settling. If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of water tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that will then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. An example video can be seen at http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. Thanks, Ryan Pope _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: Ryan Pope mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is variations on heating and settling. If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of water tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that will then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. An example video can be seen at http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htmhttp://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. Thanks, Ryan Pope _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirementhttp://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: "Ryan Pope" mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is variations on heating and settling. If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of water tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that will then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. An example video can be seen at http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htmhttp://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. Thanks, Ryan Pope _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirementhttp://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: Ryan Pope mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is variations on heating and settling. If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of water tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that will then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. An example video can be seen at http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htmhttp://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. Thanks, Ryan Pope _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirementhttp://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: "Ryan Pope" mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is variations on heating and settling. If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of water tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that will then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. An example video can be seen at http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htmhttp://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. Thanks, Ryan Pope _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirementhttp://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Joe, You will be surprised, I come from Sweden and its hydro is comparable to Canada. The country that produces most electricity from hydro in percent of energy production, is Brazil, which have around 38% of its electricity from hydro. I was told that when I was there. Nuclear give a large contribution and the rest is from burning coal (very common), wood, waste, oil and running engine power stations on oil. Oil is the major contributor in countries that do not have a lot of hydro. I think that for Canada and Sweden, hydro is around 10-15%, which is a lot. I saw figures once and I think that oil is more than 60% of our heating needs. When it comes to heating, oil is by far the most common fuel and a regular villa burner will give you between 70 to 90% efficiency. An old and very poorly maintained burner, can go down to 50 - 60% efficiency. If you burn 0.4 lit oil to heat your home, you have to put in 1 liter to produce the same in electricity. That also mean that with equal pollution efficiency, the home burner pollutes 60% less. You have to put in super efficient filters in the power station to have the same pollution. The most common power stations burn coal and those are very large and difficult polluters. The coal and oil power stations are on top of this often located close to urban areas and this does not improve the situation. Hakan At 17:22 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: Ryan Pope mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and can easily achieve the temperatures required. On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: Ryan Pope mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is variations on heating and settling. If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of water tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that will then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. An example video can be seen at http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htmhttp://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. Thanks, Ryan Pope _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirementhttp://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Hi Ryan, I live about 70 miles from Kaydon Filtration. I talked with them this morning and they told me that this filter will not work on vegetable oil. Sorry. Good thought though. Bill Clark - Original Message - From: Ryan Pope [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is variations on heating and settling. If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of water tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that will then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. An example video can be seen at http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. Thanks, Ryan Pope _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Maybe but I think I can keep the energy stored for longer and use it more conveniently and for more purposes by storing it in batteries than in a hot water tank. Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and can easily achieve the temperatures required. On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: "Ryan Pope" mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is variations on heating and settling. If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of water tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that will then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. An example video can be seen at http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htmhttp://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. Thanks, Ryan Pope _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there!
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Only 25% of electricity generation in Ontario is derived from coal J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, You will be surprised, I come from Sweden and its hydro is comparable to Canada. The country that produces most electricity from hydro in percent of energy production, is Brazil, which have around 38% of its electricity from hydro. I was told that when I was there. Nuclear give a large contribution and the rest is from burning coal (very common), wood, waste, oil and running engine power stations on oil. Oil is the major contributor in countries that do not have a lot of hydro. I think that for Canada and Sweden, hydro is around 10-15%, which is a lot. I saw figures once and I think that oil is more than 60% of our heating needs. When it comes to heating, oil is by far the most common fuel and a regular villa burner will give you between 70 to 90% efficiency. An old and very poorly maintained burner, can go down to 50 - 60% efficiency. If you burn 0.4 lit oil to heat your home, you have to put in 1 liter to produce the same in electricity. That also mean that with equal pollution efficiency, the home burner pollutes 60% less. You have to put in super efficient filters in the power station to have the same pollution. The most common power stations burn coal and those are very large and difficult polluters. The coal and oil power stations are on top of this often located close to urban areas and this does not improve the situation. Hakan At 17:22 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: "Ryan Pope"
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
I wouldn't be too sure about that. 500 gallon water tank weighs about 4,000lbs, and can store 200,000Btu's of heat (changing temperature from 185F to 135F. This is about 58kWh of thermal energy. 4,000lbs of lead acid batteries will also store about 56kWh with an 80% DOD. But they will cost about $8,000. Plus the fact that PV modules are about $5/watt, whereas new solar thermal collectors are under $1/watt. Partly because PV is max about 18% efficient, whereas even a half assed solar thermal collector can hit 50 or 60% efficient. For specific electrical heating needs like soldering irons or such, electrical is the only way to go, but for bulk low temp heating, solar thermal seems better. Just my two cents (as a PV guy...) On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe but I think I can keep the energy stored for longer and use it more conveniently and for more purposes by storing it in batteries than in a hot water tank. Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and can easily achieve the temperatures required. On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: Ryan Pope mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Joe, That sounds as I expected, it is probably larger than hydro and around the same as nuclear. Sorry that I involved house heating in this, instead of sticking only to electricity, but in Sweden it is the main heating fuel. Hakan At 19:24 27/04/2006, you wrote: Only 25% of electricity generation in Ontario is derived from coal J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, You will be surprised, I come from Sweden and its hydro is comparable to Canada. The country that produces most electricity from hydro in percent of energy production, is Brazil, which have around 38% of its electricity from hydro. I was told that when I was there. Nuclear give a large contribution and the rest is from burning coal (very common), wood, waste, oil and running engine power stations on oil. Oil is the major contributor in countries that do not have a lot of hydro. I think that for Canada and Sweden, hydro is around 10-15%, which is a lot. I saw figures once and I think that oil is more than 60% of our heating needs. When it comes to heating, oil is by far the most common fuel and a regular villa burner will give you between 70 to 90% efficiency. An old and very poorly maintained burner, can go down to 50 - 60% efficiency. If you burn 0.4 lit oil to heat your home, you have to put in 1 liter to produce the same in electricity. That also mean that with equal pollution efficiency, the home burner pollutes 60% less. You have to put in super efficient filters in the power station to have the same pollution. The most common power stations burn coal and those are very large and difficult polluters. The coal and oil power stations are on top of this often located close to urban areas and this does not improve the situation. Hakan At 17:22 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Cool...and not cool. There are other filters that are viscous oil compatible, the Kaydon site just had a really nice video of the process. These would work as a final step to ensure no wash water stayed with your final diesel product, though. Based on what the coalescer media seems to be, something homemade may work. A few overlapping grids of any material that attracted water but not oil would achieve the same results. If I come up with something, I'll share. Ryan From: Bill Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 11:36:44 -0500 Hi Ryan, I live about 70 miles from Kaydon Filtration. I talked with them this morning and they told me that this filter will not work on vegetable oil. Sorry. Good thought though. Bill Clark - Original Message - From: Ryan Pope [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is variations on heating and settling. If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of water tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that will then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. An example video can be seen at http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. Thanks, Ryan Pope _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Zeke, Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . Normal thermal solar panels have 35-40% efficiency. A very good and cost effective way to use solar. Thermal solar for hot water will pay for itself in 3 to 5 years and heating around 5 to 8 years. Compared this to PV that are more around 15 - 20 years. The normally used PV cells have 8-12% efficiency, even if you can get very expensive and less used cells that have up to 35% efficiency. Hakan At 18:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and can easily achieve the temperatures required. On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: Ryan Pope mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is variations on heating and settling. If you aren't familiar with coalescer media,
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Yeah -- I think that part of it is that people are used to seeing really ugly solar thermal installations put in during the 80's, and not much has been installed here since then. And then they think that solar thermal is old technology that has been superceded by PV. Not knowing the different between electricity and hot water helps... one guy I talked to actually thought that his solar thermal panels stored sunlight somehow, and didn't actually have a clue that they heated water up. He wanted them taken down because they came with the house and he didn't want solar any more great thinking since natural gas prices keep jumping up here... On 4/27/06, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zeke, Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . Normal thermal solar panels have 35-40% efficiency. A very good and cost effective way to use solar. Thermal solar for hot water will pay for itself in 3 to 5 years and heating around 5 to 8 years. Compared this to PV that are more around 15 - 20 years. The normally used PV cells have 8-12% efficiency, even if you can get very expensive and less used cells that have up to 35% efficiency. Hakan At 18:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and can easily achieve the temperatures required. On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out?
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Electricity is more useful to me. J Zeke Yewdall wrote: I wouldn't be too sure about that. 500 gallon water tank weighs about 4,000lbs, and can store 200,000Btu's of heat (changing temperature from 185F to 135F. This is about 58kWh of thermal energy. 4,000lbs of lead acid batteries will also store about 56kWh with an 80% DOD. But they will cost about $8,000. Plus the fact that PV modules are about $5/watt, whereas new solar thermal collectors are under $1/watt. Partly because PV is max about 18% efficient, whereas even a half assed solar thermal collector can hit 50 or 60% efficient. For specific electrical heating needs like soldering irons or such, electrical is the only way to go, but for bulk low temp heating, solar thermal seems better. Just my two cents (as a PV guy...) On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe but I think I can keep the energy stored for longer and use it more conveniently and for more purposes by storing it in batteries than in a hot water tank. Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and can easily achieve the temperatures required. On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: "Ryan Pope" mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
I'm interested in what your processor uses electricity for? Seems like it would worth a little bit of hassle to use heat exchangers instead of electric elements, for such a large cost savings -- somewhere around a quarter the cost or less. Of course the pumps/stirrers/etc have to be electrically driven, but I figure we're talking about the major thermal loads for drying the fuel here (unless the topic of this thread has changed) Z On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Electricity is more useful to me. J Zeke Yewdall wrote: I wouldn't be too sure about that. 500 gallon water tank weighs about 4,000lbs, and can store 200,000Btu's of heat (changing temperature from 185F to 135F. This is about 58kWh of thermal energy. 4,000lbs of lead acid batteries will also store about 56kWh with an 80% DOD. But they will cost about $8,000. Plus the fact that PV modules are about $5/watt, whereas new solar thermal collectors are under $1/watt. Partly because PV is max about 18% efficient, whereas even a half assed solar thermal collector can hit 50 or 60% efficient. For specific electrical heating needs like soldering irons or such, electrical is the only way to go, but for bulk low temp heating, solar thermal seems better. Just my two cents (as a PV guy...) On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe but I think I can keep the energy stored for longer and use it more conveniently and for more purposes by storing it in batteries than in a hot water tank. Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and can easily achieve the temperatures required. On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Hi Hakan; I don't think hydroelectric is less than coal in Canada. According to this wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroelectricity Canada derives 70% of its electricity needs from hydroelectric generation and is the world's largest producer. Quebec alone produces over 30 GW from hydro. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, That sounds as I expected, it is probably larger than hydro and around the same as nuclear. Sorry that I involved house heating in this, instead of sticking only to electricity, but in Sweden it is the main heating fuel. Hakan At 19:24 27/04/2006, you wrote: Only 25% of electricity generation in Ontario is derived from coal J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, You will be surprised, I come from Sweden and its hydro is comparable to Canada. The country that produces most electricity from hydro in percent of energy production, is Brazil, which have around 38% of its electricity from hydro. I was told that when I was there. Nuclear give a large contribution and the rest is from burning coal (very common), wood, waste, oil and running engine power stations on oil. Oil is the major contributor in countries that do not have a lot of hydro. I think that for Canada and Sweden, hydro is around 10-15%, which is a lot. I saw figures once and I think that oil is more than 60% of our heating needs. When it comes to heating, oil is by far the most common fuel and a regular villa burner will give you between 70 to 90% efficiency. An old and very poorly maintained burner, can go down to 50 - 60% efficiency. If you burn 0.4 lit oil to heat your home, you have to put in 1 liter to produce the same in electricity. That also mean that with equal pollution efficiency, the home burner pollutes 60% less. You have to put in super efficient filters in the power station to have the same pollution. The most common power stations burn coal and those are very large and difficult polluters. The coal and oil power stations are on top of this often located close to urban areas and this does not improve the situation. Hakan At 17:22 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process.
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
A fair bit of energy goes into creating the vacuum, and less into heating as a result. Critics will no doubt point out that there are significant losses in creating the vacuum but for me it is useful to have finished dry useable fuel in a little over 24 hours and time is worth something too sometimes as is floor space. For some folks in a different situation it may be the opposite, but not for me. Everything depends on your situation. For example I just came back from remote places in the province of B.C. where wood is plentiful. A straw bale house may be a good choice in Ontario but it would be ridiculous not to use local timber if living in northern B.C. where there is no farmland and straw would have to be transported at great expense to build a straw house. For me the ability to use electricity not only for fuel production but for lighting, running small electrical appliances etc is more useful than direct solar heat storage. It would be ideal to have both actually. Maybe one day Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: I'm interested in what your processor uses electricity for? Seems like it would worth a little bit of hassle to use heat exchangers instead of electric elements, for such a large cost savings -- somewhere around a quarter the cost or less. Of course the pumps/stirrers/etc have to be electrically driven, but I figure we're talking about the major thermal loads for drying the fuel here (unless the topic of this thread has changed) Z On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Electricity is more useful to me. J Zeke Yewdall wrote: I wouldn't be too sure about that. 500 gallon water tank weighs about 4,000lbs, and can store 200,000Btu's of heat (changing temperature from 185F to 135F. This is about 58kWh of thermal energy. 4,000lbs of lead acid batteries will also store about 56kWh with an 80% DOD. But they will cost about $8,000. Plus the fact that PV modules are about $5/watt, whereas new solar thermal collectors are under $1/watt. Partly because PV is max about 18% efficient, whereas even a half assed solar thermal collector can hit 50 or 60% efficient. For specific electrical heating needs like soldering irons or such, electrical is the only way to go, but for bulk low temp heating, solar thermal seems better. Just my two cents (as a PV guy...) On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe but I think I can keep the energy stored for longer and use it more conveniently and for more purposes by storing it in batteries than in a hot water tank. Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and can easily achieve the temperatures required. On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Hakan Falk wrote: Zeke, Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . snip Ever been to Mexico? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Well, if you're going to bring running your lights and house into it :) I was talking just about drying fuel. and I didn't think about the vacuum pump for dewatering -- I was thinking only of the circulation pumps. Hopefully my all electric house will have both solar thermal (to replace the electric heating), and PV (for everything else) soon.. finances permitting. On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A fair bit of energy goes into creating the vacuum, and less into heating as a result. Critics will no doubt point out that there are significant losses in creating the vacuum but for me it is useful to have finished dry useable fuel in a little over 24 hours and time is worth something too sometimes as is floor space. For some folks in a different situation it may be the opposite, but not for me. Everything depends on your situation. For example I just came back from remote places in the province of B.C. where wood is plentiful. A straw bale house may be a good choice in Ontario but it would be ridiculous not to use local timber if living in northern B.C. where there is no farmland and straw would have to be transported at great expense to build a straw house. For me the ability to use electricity not only for fuel production but for lighting, running small electrical appliances etc is more useful than direct solar heat storage. It would be ideal to have both actually. Maybe one day Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: I'm interested in what your processor uses electricity for? Seems like it would worth a little bit of hassle to use heat exchangers instead of electric elements, for such a large cost savings -- somewhere around a quarter the cost or less. Of course the pumps/stirrers/etc have to be electrically driven, but I figure we're talking about the major thermal loads for drying the fuel here (unless the topic of this thread has changed) Z On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Electricity is more useful to me. J Zeke Yewdall wrote: I wouldn't be too sure about that. 500 gallon water tank weighs about 4,000lbs, and can store 200,000Btu's of heat (changing temperature from 185F to 135F. This is about 58kWh of thermal energy. 4,000lbs of lead acid batteries will also store about 56kWh with an 80% DOD. But they will cost about $8,000. Plus the fact that PV modules are about $5/watt, whereas new solar thermal collectors are under $1/watt. Partly because PV is max about 18% efficient, whereas even a half assed solar thermal collector can hit 50 or 60% efficient. For specific electrical heating needs like soldering irons or such, electrical is the only way to go, but for bulk low temp heating, solar thermal seems better. Just my two cents (as a PV guy...) On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe but I think I can keep the energy stored for longer and use it more conveniently and for more purposes by storing it in batteries than in a hot water tank. Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and can easily achieve the temperatures required. On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro.
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Joe, I must have got my numbers wrong, but wikipedia probably also. If 25% is from coal and 70% from hydro Only 5% for others??? I have seen Brazil, China, Norway, Sweden, Austria and some more, but I have not seen Canada or any large ones in US. In number of generators and capacity, it seems that Le Grande must be very close to the largest in Brazil, at least what I saw 2 years ago. Would be interesting to get some other info than Wikipedia also. Hakan At 20:38 27/04/2006, you wrote: Hi Hakan; I don't think hydroelectric is less than coal in Canada. According to this wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroelectricityhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroelectricity Canada derives 70% of its electricity needs from hydroelectric generation and is the world's largest producer. Quebec alone produces over 30 GW from hydro. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, That sounds as I expected, it is probably larger than hydro and around the same as nuclear. Sorry that I involved house heating in this, instead of sticking only to electricity, but in Sweden it is the main heating fuel. Hakan At 19:24 27/04/2006, you wrote: Only 25% of electricity generation in Ontario is derived from coal J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, You will be surprised, I come from Sweden and its hydro is comparable to Canada. The country that produces most electricity from hydro in percent of energy production, is Brazil, which have around 38% of its electricity from hydro. I was told that when I was there. Nuclear give a large contribution and the rest is from burning coal (very common), wood, waste, oil and running engine power stations on oil. Oil is the major contributor in countries that do not have a lot of hydro. I think that for Canada and Sweden, hydro is around 10-15%, which is a lot. I saw figures once and I think that oil is more than 60% of our heating needs. When it comes to heating, oil is by far the most common fuel and a regular villa burner will give you between 70 to 90% efficiency. An old and very poorly maintained burner, can go down to 50 - 60% efficiency. If you burn 0.4 lit oil to heat your home, you have to put in 1 liter to produce the same in electricity. That also mean that with equal pollution efficiency, the home burner pollutes 60% less. You have to put in super efficient filters in the power station to have the same pollution. The most common power stations burn coal and those are very large and difficult polluters. The coal and oil power stations are on top of this often located close to urban areas and this does not improve the situation. Hakan At 17:22 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Not quite what you were looking for, but here's the breakdown for the different US states. Some of them are upwards of 70% hydro (in WA and ID, it's common to have all electric houses, because until recently residential rates were below 4 cents/kWh, and industrial was less than 2 cents. http://www.nei.org/documents/State_by_State_Electricity_Fuel_Shares_2003.pdf On 4/27/06, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe, I must have got my numbers wrong, but wikipedia probably also. If 25% is from coal and 70% from hydro Only 5% for others??? I have seen Brazil, China, Norway, Sweden, Austria and some more, but I have not seen Canada or any large ones in US. In number of generators and capacity, it seems that Le Grande must be very close to the largest in Brazil, at least what I saw 2 years ago. Would be interesting to get some other info than Wikipedia also. Hakan At 20:38 27/04/2006, you wrote: Hi Hakan; I don't think hydroelectric is less than coal in Canada. According to this wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroelectricityhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroelectricity Canada derives 70% of its electricity needs from hydroelectric generation and is the world's largest producer. Quebec alone produces over 30 GW from hydro. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, That sounds as I expected, it is probably larger than hydro and around the same as nuclear. Sorry that I involved house heating in this, instead of sticking only to electricity, but in Sweden it is the main heating fuel. Hakan At 19:24 27/04/2006, you wrote: Only 25% of electricity generation in Ontario is derived from coal J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, You will be surprised, I come from Sweden and its hydro is comparable to Canada. The country that produces most electricity from hydro in percent of energy production, is Brazil, which have around 38% of its electricity from hydro. I was told that when I was there. Nuclear give a large contribution and the rest is from burning coal (very common), wood, waste, oil and running engine power stations on oil. Oil is the major contributor in countries that do not have a lot of hydro. I think that for Canada and Sweden, hydro is around 10-15%, which is a lot. I saw figures once and I think that oil is more than 60% of our heating needs. When it comes to heating, oil is by far the most common fuel and a regular villa burner will give you between 70 to 90% efficiency. An old and very poorly maintained burner, can go down to 50 - 60% efficiency. If you burn 0.4 lit oil to heat your home, you have to put in 1 liter to produce the same in electricity. That also mean that with equal pollution efficiency, the home burner pollutes 60% less. You have to put in super efficient filters in the power station to have the same pollution. The most common power stations burn coal and those are very large and difficult polluters. The coal and oil power stations are on top of this often located close to urban areas and this does not improve the situation. Hakan At 17:22 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Joe, Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15 years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5 years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast. Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of thermal solar systems also. Hakan At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: Zeke, Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . snip Ever been to Mexico? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
thats what i meant when i said the old folks did it , grandma frieburg never had a freezer, they left buckets of apple beer on the porch in the winter. - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: Ryan Pope [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is variations on heating and settling. If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of water tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that will then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. An example video can be seen at http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. Thanks, Ryan Pope _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.0/325 - Release Date: 4/26/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Up in New Hampshire most of the year my friends keep their food in the pantry - which is outside. Only use the fridge in the Summer. My Granma had a root celler - worked fine - she kept preserves in it. Jason Katie wrote: thats what i meant when i said the old folks did it , grandma frieburg never had a freezer, they left buckets of apple beer on the porch in the winter. - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: Ryan Pope [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is variations on heating and settling. If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of water tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that will then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. An example video can be seen at http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. Thanks, Ryan Pope _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Almost every house and building has a big black cistern on the roof. The are everywhere you look. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15 years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5 years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast. Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of thermal solar systems also. Hakan At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: Zeke, Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . snip Ever been to Mexico? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Anyone tried using solar thermal hot water to heat feedstock for the reaction? I've toyed with the idea (very, very hot sunny where I live) of just looping fifty yards of old black hose on the garage roof, connecting it to coiled copper inside the mixing tank, and circulating it slowly with a low-power solar pump. The water gets mighty hot, but I don't know if I'd be able to transfer enough of that to the oil for it to be worthwhile. On Thu, 2006-04-27 at 20:14 +0200, Hakan Falk wrote: Zeke, Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . Normal thermal solar panels have 35-40% efficiency. A very good and cost effective way to use solar. Thermal solar for hot water will pay for itself in 3 to 5 years and heating around 5 to 8 years. Compared this to PV that are more around 15 - 20 years. The normally used PV cells have 8-12% efficiency, even if you can get very expensive and less used cells that have up to 35% efficiency. Hakan At 18:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and can easily achieve the temperatures required. On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up. Joe Jason Katie wrote: what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: Ryan Pope mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: Ryan Pope [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is variations on heating and settling. If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of water tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that will then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. An example video can be seen at http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. Thanks, Ryan Pope _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
That could cetainly work it a Wisconsin winter...the cold is free! Ryan From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:54:01 -0500 what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my grandma was a kid. - Original Message - From: Ryan Pope [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is variations on heating and settling. If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of water tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that will then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. An example video can be seen at http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. Thanks, Ryan Pope _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO sources and other stuff
...I don't much care for the gentleman. Sod being polite about it, I wouldn't cross the street to piss in his mouth if his teeth were on fire. Ahh, now I feel all better. :-) Best Keith wow, that was unexpected... not unwarranted i admit, but definitely unexpected. :-) Midori's outside talking to a guy who collects dead electronic gear for recycling. We gave him some dead gear, including a defunct PC someone gave us but it didn't work, which Midori referred to as the broken Windows. LOL! Is there any other kind? Anyway, re Mr Gates, what do you want me to say, that I take it all back, I didn't really mean it, in fact I would cross the street to piss in his mouth if his teeth were on fire? Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO sources and other stuff
nah, i dont blame you for saying it, i just couldnt imagine you putting it to writing until you actually did it. one of those shocking things, like hearing your mother say she likes rap music or something. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO sources and other stuff ...I don't much care for the gentleman. Sod being polite about it, I wouldn't cross the street to piss in his mouth if his teeth were on fire. Ahh, now I feel all better. :-) Best Keith wow, that was unexpected... not unwarranted i admit, but definitely unexpected. :-) Midori's outside talking to a guy who collects dead electronic gear for recycling. We gave him some dead gear, including a defunct PC someone gave us but it didn't work, which Midori referred to as the broken Windows. LOL! Is there any other kind? Anyway, re Mr Gates, what do you want me to say, that I take it all back, I didn't really mean it, in fact I would cross the street to piss in his mouth if his teeth were on fire? Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.4/320 - Release Date: 4/20/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO sources and other stuff
Hi Greg After being turned away by several Asian restaurants to collect their oil, I tried a different tact. I contacted some of the people that collect the stuff and process it. There were a couple of interesting things I found out. The most telling thing I found is just how arrogant some of these rendering companies can be. What they turn waste veggie into (probably no revelation to you long term folks) is animal feed. When I first heard that, I thought they mix it with something like soy and add the mix to other established feed stocks. But, noo. It was described as the gravy on mashed potatoes. If a cow will eat mashed potatoes, you will eat more potatoes if it has gravy on it. Then, after a series of phone calls (that many bio-dieselers have apparently also done), I finally got to someone that would talk to me. Most just said no and referred me on to someone else. But this person simply said they didnt want to mess with small quantities and to go away. Then he added that if ALL the waste veggie was diverted from animal feed to biodiesel, it wouldnt amount to an eyedropper full in the ocean. I'm not sure how long waste veggie oil will continue as an animal feed supplement, or at least maybe not so easily that recyclers can be arrogant about it. It probably isn't just waste veggie oil, for a start. I objected to this at the start and wanted to call it Used Cooking Oil instead of WVO. Now people are calling it UCO, better. If it's been used to cook beef or pork or chicken it'll have beef or pork or chicken fat in it too and maybe a lot of it, not just veggie. Then it becomes a question of feeding cows to cows and so on, a touchy question in this age of prions, and anyway cows eat grass or maybe it's not such a good idea to eat cows. The reason fry oil is replaced is that it gets full of FFAs, which aren't good for you. If we feed the FFAs to animals and then eat the animals, how will that be good for you? This whole way of doing things, by measuring the chemical nutrients in whatever and that's the basis of whether it's good animal feed, or indeed a good fertiliser, is long past it's use-by date, IMHO. No sign of it happening yet, but just smile at the nice renderer Greg, maybe you'll be there longer than he will. By the way, a lot of people have these problems at first and can get quite despondent about it, but it seems they nearly always find a good answer in the end. Perseverance furthers, strength to yer arm. It looks like I will have to keep looking for an Asian restaurant or some other type of place. How about one step back, at the wholesale level? Try people who make lunchboxes or something, works canteens, flush oil from edible oil producers, hotels, hospitals, schools. Schools are easy if you can interest the science teacher. I have made a couple of sample batches and all I can say is that I am glad I am using JtF for guidance. Otherwise, I would have a lot of junk to reprocess. I am hoping that by my third sample batch I will have the technique down. The first failure was due to bad technique, the second because of poor design (on my part) of the reaction chamber. Keith wrote Windows ethanol, aarghh! Don't forget to keep your patches up to date or your motor will get a virus. :-) In a world without walls or fences, what use do we have for Windows or Gates? Sorry, I don't much care for the gentleman. You certainly have a liberal view and usage of the word gentleman. :-) :-) Sometimes you just have to be insulting but that's no reason not to be polite about it. He is what I am afraid of happening to home brewer: big money entering the field to the point of buying politicians and bureaucrats and excluding the small guy. This list has been going for six years and that been a concern for just about as long. You might give this an eyeballing though: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch It has some bearing on the eyedropperful in the ocean too. My opinion is that he is the Bin Laden of the business world. I have some respect for Bin Laden. He's a really dazzling strategist, he hasn't put a foot wrong yet. And he's not a liar or a cheat. The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to lead all his customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who by peddling second-hand, second-rate technology, led them all into it in the first place. http://www.gksoft.com/a/fun/dna-on-microsoft.html Douglas Adams on Microsoft, The Guardian, Sep 01 1995 My problem with it is that this hopelessly unintuitive cheapo retread of an operating system has been humanity's main introduction to the Internet, which could be about the most important thing that ever happened, some of us think. It's possible that this superbloated oaf could have screwed up our one and only chance to make the best use of it when it really
Re: [Biofuel] WVO sources and other stuff
Greg, If you have competing Waste oil fellows out there, then you can worm in by offering them to take all the oil for free. If not then buy it for 5cents a gallon. You must be ready to place your drums outside and show them you are in the business or the big guys will scam you out as fast as they can. You may be up against the same problem as me. The restraunt owner does not think that you will be around that long then the hassle of getting someone all over again. You should also try grocery stores as they do not have grill grease : Either way, Luck Jim greg Kelly wrote: * After being turned away by several Asian restaurants to collect their oil, I tried a different tact. I contacted some of the people that collect the stuff and process it. There were a couple of interesting things I found out. The most telling thing I found is just how arrogant some of these rendering companies can be. What they turn waste veggie into (probably no revelation to you long term folks) is animal feed. When I first heard that, I thought they mix it with something like soy and add the mix to other established feed stocks. But, noo. It was described as the gravy on mashed potatoes. If a cow will eat mashed potatoes, you will eat more potatoes if it has gravy on it. Then, after a series of phone calls (that many bio-dieselers have apparently also done), I finally got to someone that would talk to me. Most just said no and referred me on to someone else. But this person simply said they didn’t want to mess with small quantities and to go away. Then he added that if ALL the waste veggie was diverted from animal feed to biodiesel, it wouldn’t amount to an eyedropper full in the ocean. It looks like I will have to keep looking for an Asian restaurant or some other type of place. I have made a couple of sample batches and all I can say is that I am glad I am using JtF for guidance. Otherwise, I would have a lot of junk to reprocess. I am hoping that by my third sample batch I will have the technique down. The first failure was due to bad technique, the second because of poor design (on my part) of the reaction chamber. Keith wrote Windows ethanol, aarghh! Don't forget to keep your patches up to date or your motor will get a virus. :-) In a world without walls or fences, what use do we have for Windows or Gates? Sorry, I don't much care for the gentleman. You certainly have a liberal view and usage of the word gentleman. :-) He is what I am afraid of happening to home brewer: big money entering the field to the point of buying politicians and bureaucrats and excluding the small guy. My opinion is that he is the Bin Laden of the business world. * ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO sources and other stuff
Here in Canada there are apparently regulations now in place that prohibit animal waste going into livestock feed because of the mad cow situation. Here on the Left Coast, I have noticed several waste management/rendering companies becoming pretty big biodiesel producers. While I feel reticent about big business/monopoly/big lobby stuff in general, I find this transformation of the rendering industry a positive step. That's my two cents. Kenji Fuse On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, greg Kelly wrote: After being turned away by several Asian restaurants to collect their oil, I tried a different tact. I contacted some of the people that collect the stuff and process it. There were a couple of interesting things I found out. The most telling thing I found is just how arrogant some of these rendering companies can be. What they turn waste veggie into (probably no revelation to you long term folks) is animal feed. When I first heard that, I thought they mix it with something like soy and add the mix to other established feed stocks. But, noo. It was described as the gravy on mashed potatoes. If a cow will eat mashed potatoes, you will eat more potatoes if it has gravy on it. Then, after a series of phone calls (that many bio-dieselers have apparently also done), I finally got to someone that would talk to me. Most just said no and referred me on to someone else. But this person simply said they didn?t want to mess with small quantities and to go away. Then he added that if ALL the waste veggie was diverted from animal feed to biodiesel, it wouldn?t amount to an eyedropper full in the ocean. It looks like I will have to keep looking for an Asian restaurant or some other type of place. I have made a couple of sample batches and all I can say is that I am glad I am using JtF for guidance. Otherwise, I would have a lot of junk to reprocess. I am hoping that by my third sample batch I will have the technique down. The first failure was due to bad technique, the second because of poor design (on my part) of the reaction chamber. Keith wrote Windows ethanol, aarghh! Don't forget to keep your patches up to date or your motor will get a virus. :-) In a world without walls or fences, what use do we have for Windows or Gates? Sorry, I don't much care for the gentleman. You certainly have a liberal view and usage of the word gentleman. :-) He is what I am afraid of happening to home brewer: big money entering the field to the point of buying politicians and bureaucrats and excluding the small guy. My opinion is that he is the Bin Laden of the business world. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO sources and other stuff
...I don't much care for the gentleman. Sod being polite about it, I wouldn't cross the street to piss in his mouth if his teeth were on fire. Ahh, now I feel all better. :-) Best Keith wow, that was unexpected... not unwarranted i admit, but definitely unexpected. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.4/319 - Release Date: 4/19/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
