and...@publicworksoffice.co.uk
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
To: Lutelist list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 21 January, 2010, 14:35
To add to the confusion: 17th c. harpsichord makers added another
feature called a buff stop that had
Howard,
--- On Thu, 1/21/10, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote:
But I agree with Andrew (if indeed he meant to make this
point) that
it's a mistake to extrapolate lute tone from the names of
harpsichord
stops, as the opposite conclusions you could draw from the
English
lute stop
Or they thought lute players were damp. Of course in German, that
might mean steamy.
dt
At 06:35 AM 1/21/2010, you wrote:
To add to the confusion: 17th c. harpsichord makers added another
feature called a buff stop that had the opposite effect - it pressed
leather pads against the strings to
: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 20 January, 2010, 19:07
As far as renaissance goes, the Mueller harpsichord has many of the
qualities of a lute, tone
: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
To: Lutelist list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, January 20, 2010, 1:55 PM
Agricola wrote:
... heard a 'Lautenclavicymbel' in Leipzig in about 1740,
designed
by Mr. Johann Sebastian Bach and made by Mr. Zacharias
Hildebrand,
which
To add to the confusion: 17th c. harpsichord makers added another
feature called a buff stop that had the opposite effect - it pressed
leather pads against the strings to mute them. French and German
makers called this respectively a 'registre de luth' or 'Lautenzug'.
I have no idea why this would
Andrew Gibbs points out:
17th c. harpsichord makers added another
feature called a buff stop that had the opposite effect - it pressed
leather pads against the strings to mute them. French and German
makers called this respectively a 'registre de luth' or 'Lautenzug'.
And asks
I have no idea
Hi lute folks,
my lute teacher in the 1980's, Leif Karlson, co-student of Konrad
Junghänel in Michael Schäffer's class in Cologne, used to joke by the
harpsichord stop in his lute: he put a piece of some old string going
over-under-over-under... of the courses of his lute, near the bridge. The
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, dwinh...@comcast.net, Ron Andrico
praelu...@hotmail.com
Date: Tuesday, 19 January, 2010, 19:27
Ron,
Good points. I'm working on exactly this point.
The main issue with true thumb-out is getting a decent
Martyn,
--- On Wed, 1/20/10, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Also note the 'lute stop' or 'theorbo
stop' on the harpsichord which
was a row of jacks plucking closer to the
bridge than the main and
gives a more brittle and brilliant
sound.
Yes. Also
Agricola wrote:
... heard a 'Lautenclavicymbel' in Leipzig in about 1740, designed
by Mr. Johann Sebastian Bach and made by Mr. Zacharias Hildebrand,
which was smaller in size than a normal harpsichord but in all other
respects similar. It had two choirs of gut strings, and a so-called
little
As far as renaissance goes, the Mueller harpsichord has many of the
qualities of a lute, tone transposition and a crank that moves the
plucking point closer to the bridge and closer to the center.
I can imagine that most players would vary their plucking points,
though some would prefer to stay
I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for
fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On
the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the
treble.
There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but
form the angle of the fingers.
Mark
-Original Message-
From: chriswi...@yahoo.com
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net
Sent: Tue, Jan 19, 2010 8:10 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass
Hi All,
I have always regarded the rest stroke with the thumb as being a kind of
fundamental, a starting point. It doesn't have to be agressive, it's
just a way of making sure that both strings of a course are struck fully
and at the same time. I was taught (and hence still teach) that the
...@comcast.net
From: chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass,
sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating
(free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally
On Jan 19, 2010, at 8:09 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:
With one exception, nearly
all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under
technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a
recent video
who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What
gives?
Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably
obvious historical technique?
My idea about this is : they study how it should be done, then they do how
it is easyer for them... (I'm speaking about pros...)
For me, I'm not sure how it should be done, and I'm doing how I'm
I am also a bit puzzled by an unquestionably obvious historical
technique.
RT
- Original Message -
From: Sauvage Valéry sauvag...@orange.fr
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:11 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Why don't baroque lutenists
Thanks, Martin - this makes sense to me.
Ned
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The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you
mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples,
there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is
also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly
Well, I have wondered too, if - as I've read - Dowland evolved from
thumb under to thumb over as he played lutes with more courses, why
thumb over is not more commonly used. But then, I definitely hear and
feel a significant difference between the two approaches when I manage
to
to
this issue in the past.
Sincerely puzzled,
Ron Andrico
www.mignarda.com
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57
-0800
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu;
dwinh...@comcast.net
From: chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest
stroke
I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
To: [4]chriswi...@yahoo.com, [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu,
[6]dwinh...@comcast.net
Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 11:09 AM
Chris All:
The rest stroke for the thumb seems a
logical means to both produce a
strong bass
...@comcast.net; Ron Andrico
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Ron,
Good points. I'm working on exactly this point.
The main issue with true thumb-out is getting a decent and - far more
importantly - _consistent_ sound out of the treble strings. There clearly was
a marked aural
Hello Dan,
I enjoyed your videos and am impressed by your seeming equal fluency
with both right hand techniques. The sound of the viheuela and lute
are quite different, so I wouldn't say I could make a judgement about
differences in the sound of both techniques. But, as I say,
against except the inside of the hand?
- Original Message - From: terli...@aol.com
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:34 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted
as a rest stroke being used
I've usually interpreted rest like finger position when tuning as
damping, although quilling pairs would certainly be an option if
you count beats when tuning.
dt
At 05:10 AM 1/19/2010, you wrote:
I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass,
sometimes for fairly fast lines
.
Chris
--- On Tue, 1/19/10, Ron Andrico
[2]praelu...@hotmail.com
wrote:
From: Ron Andrico [3]praelu...@hotmail.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest
stroke
To: [4]chriswi...@yahoo.com,
[5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu,
[6]dwinh...@comcast.net
Date: Tuesday, January
My recording experience is that on double strings the rest stroke
strikes the strings in sucession, so that there is a very slight
stagger (very slight, but audible and visible in the string
interference pattern), whereas an elliptical stroke with the thumb
resting on both strings and pushing
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
It is very similar to a rest stroke, and yet very different.
When using the two fingered graze, the fingers can either rest or
brush against each other.
Also, you can create the motion of the stroke without the ending,
which can produce the same or similar sound
? I admit to not having paid much attention to
this issue in the past.
Sincerely puzzled,
Ron Andrico
www.mignarda.com
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57 -0800
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; dwinh...@comcast.net
From: chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest
We don't know that Dowland played thumb over, he could very likely
have played thumb stretched which produces a completely different sound.
Try it, it takes 10 minutes to learn. Stretch your thumb as far as it
will go, so it is taught, like a bow.
And if thumb under, or inside or tips up is
I speak only from my playing experience and from what I have read here and
in a couple of old Lute sources. If the standard method of playing
diminutions was to alternate between thumb and index finger (early to mid
Sixteenth Century) then it is safe to assume that a thumb rest stroke is not
I think it came into use with the Venetian lutenists from 1500 or
so. Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing thumb-
index diminutions, and you don't want to be damping the string
directly below your thumb if it's supposed to be sounding, but as a
general rule I think that
Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted as a rest
stroke being used on the chanterelle?
-Original Message-
From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net
To: nedma...@aol.com
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 6:26 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
...@comcast.net
To: nedma...@aol.com
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 6:26 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I think it came into use with the Venetian lutenists from 1500 or
so. Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing
thumb-index diminutions, and you don't want
One could argue that the 13th rule of Le Roy (1568) calls for rest
strokes. And as it was used in Barley that it remained practice.
Or I may be mistaken, again :)
Regards .. mark
On 19 Jan 2010 11:11, David Tayler [1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
Some teachers teach
A number of ergonomic subtleties here- very dependent on individual
hand/finger/thumb configurations, what lute- shape, size relative to
the player, holding position, stringing- for universal hard fast
rules (beyond the obvious relating to thumb-index diminutions not
damping the next course
Thanks to all for your responses. I should have said that I was
thinking only in terms of its being used when playing bass
notes/lines. As to how important to know if Dowland used it, not
terribly. Just curious. I only very recently discovered mention - and
recommendation - of
It is not inappropriate to mention here that David practices (and
performs) what he preaches. I had the good fortune to hear him in
concert with the great Baroque oboe player Gonzalo X. Ruiz last
night. If my aging vision serves, I saw him really whanging out all
the low diapasons on his
I don't see how that would be possible, there is nothing to rest against
except the inside of the hand?
- Original Message -
From: terli...@aol.com
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:34 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Do any early sources describe
No, none of them.
ed
At 05:34 PM 1/18/2010, terli...@aol.com wrote:
Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted
as a rest stroke being used on the chanterelle?
Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota 55812
e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com
voice: (218)
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