The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 116 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: E46 M3 track brake pads Re: E46 M3 track brake pads Re: E46 M3 track brake pads Re: E36: Max spacer size with standard lug bolts? Re: [uuc] re: sway bars (from last week!) Re: [uuc] re: sway bars (from last week!) Re: [uuc] re: sway bars (from last week!) Re: [uuc] re: sway bars (from last week!) Re: R-4 > PF9x > Blue > HT-10 Re: [personal] [e36 M3] steering question. Re: Spring compressors Re: R-4 > PF9x > Blue > HT-10
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:18:13 -0500 From: "Dennis Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: E46 M3 track brake pads Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Two things: 1. PFC-97 pads are street/track pads, not pure track pads. And, just from MY personal experience, I haven't had any rotor wear problems using them for street AND track use on two cars. My wife's 996 has 32k miles on it. I switched to PFCs at about 17k miles, and it has had well over 30+ track days, often with both of us sharing the car. Still have the original rotors! Dusting isn't bad. Stops GREAT, on both street and track. And those track days were accumulated in part at heavy braking tracks, like NHIS and WGI. Just my $.02. 2. Curious about the comment that race pads are less "safe" than street pads. More expensive? More wear on rotors? More dust? More noise? Sure, I can understand all of those concerns. But less safe? How? If your brakes work well enough to lock up the tire on the street, how is the the choice of pads relevant to safety? The limit to adhesion is at the TIRE, not the PAD. Or are you running into a problem with cold track pads in that the cold pads won't even lock up the tire? I guess it could be derided as being less "safe" if the race pads require MORE PRESSURE to lock up the wheel, and that an inexperienced driver might take a fraction of a second longer to press harder to get the same retardation, and that fraction of a second might translate into a longer stopping distance by a foot or three, which *might* result in an accident that could be avoided. But I guess I'm skeptical; I don't think that the difference in modulation required at the brake pedal should vary that much. I've driven race cars with brakes at cold temps, and have never had a problem reaching braking threshold. It seems to me that changing between street and track pads on the morning of the event is a huge PITA - if the only purpose is to try to be "safer" on the street; if one wants to change to save wear-and-tear on the rotor and cleaning dust and avoiding some squealing, be my guest (though I'd rather use some anti-squeal, rinse the wheel more often, and live with slightly shorter rotor life than spend an hour or two every track day swapping pads.... :-) Seriously, if I'm completely wrong on this (and I may well be), please educate me. thanks! vty, --Dennis -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of ben keyes Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 1:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [UUC] E46 M3 track brake pads Andy wrote: > I have used the PF97 compound but was not > happy with the rotor wear and metal dust from driving > to and from events. ding ding ding ding. don't drive to & from events on track pads. they don't get up to temperature and are less effective (less safe) than street pads and will (as you've noted) tear up the rotors as well as wear out the pads much quicker than in track-only use. changing pads at the track only takes an hour or so once you get the hang of it, so save your pads, rotors and wheels & learn how to do it. not trying to be harsh or anything, but you're asking for trouble driving track pads on the street... Ben Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:40:32 -0500 From: ben keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: E46 M3 track brake pads Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dennis Liu wrote: > 1. PFC-97 pads are street/track pads, not pure track pads. don't think so. from the Performance Friction web site : http://www.performancefriction.com/pages/compounds.htm scroll down to the PF097 description. doesn't say anything about it being a street pad. > MY personal experience, I haven't had any rotor wear problems using them for > street AND track use on two cars. My wife's 996 has 32k miles on it. I > switched to PFCs at about 17k miles, and it has had well over 30+ track > days, often with both of us sharing the car. Still have the original > rotors! Dusting isn't bad. Stops GREAT, on both street and track. And > those track days were accumulated in part at heavy braking tracks, like NHIS > and WGI. Just my $.02. a 996 is not a BMW. I'm pretty sure it has significantly larger calipers for the weight of the car & consequently will be easier on brakes than nearly any BMW, esp the heavy E46 M3. I've ridden with instructors in 993's with big reds on Pagid street pads & they have no trouble at all with brakes. doesn't mean that I can assume that the stock Pagid pads on a BMW are able to handle the same treatment. > 2. Curious about the comment that race pads are less "safe" than street > pads. More expensive? More wear on rotors? More dust? More noise? Sure, > I can understand all of those concerns. But less safe? How? they don't usually work as well cold as they do hot. this might not be the case with PF97's, but since they're a track pad it's a fair assumption to make that they have to have some heat in them to work. note the PF link above states they are effective from 167�F and up. I don't think the pads are going to be that hot until they get a stop or two into them & why take the risk on the street. why potentially get into an unsafe situation on the street when you can avoid it ? plus not everyone has lots of track time or experience, so suggesting track pads for the street isn't a good idea for most people. > seems to me that changing between street and track pads on the morning of > the event is a huge PITA - if the only purpose is to try to be "safer" on > the street; if one wants to change to save wear-and-tear on the rotor and > cleaning dust and avoiding some squealing, be my guest (though I'd rather > use some anti-squeal, rinse the wheel more often, and live with slightly > shorter rotor life than spend an hour or two every track day swapping > pads.... :-) you don't need to do it on Saturday night at the track (I always live with the added dust & wear from the usually very short drive to/from hotel/dinner, but also often leave the car at the track & catch a ride with someone else) just at the beginning & end of the event. you have 4 & 2 piston calipers on the 996 and should be able to do pad changes in less than 15 minutes per axle, it seems silly to burn up the track pads on the street. then again I don't have the money to spend on a 996 anyway, so your priorities might be different. bottom line is that when you start to go to a specific pad for use on the track that's where it should be used. just like track tires. if you want to drive R-compounds to/from the track & run around on track pads as well then there's no room to complain if they don't last or make noise or dust or whatever. the fact that you're able to run PF97's on the track & street in your 996 application is not directly relatable to BMW's. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:43:25 -0500 From: "Dennis Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: E46 M3 track brake pads Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In response to me, Ben Keyes wrote: >> 1. PFC-97 pads are street/track pads, not pure track pads. >don't think so. from the Performance Friction web site : http://www.performancefriction.com/pages/compounds.htm scroll down to the PF097 description. doesn't say anything about it being a street pad. _______________ That's strange. When I was shopping for pads, I spoke with a couple of experts, and they all said that PFC-97s are a combo street/track pad. So when I read what Ben wrote, I went to the site he provided, and read the following: "This compound was designed as an all-purpose pad where excellent controllability was a priority over ultimate stopping power. Due to its excellent modulation characteristics, this pad has proved very popular with race schools, rallying, and as a rear pad for applications such as touring cars. 97 has the lowest wear of all compounds, typically providing two to three times more life expectancy than competitors. This compound can also dramatically extend disc life." Does "all-purpose pad" and "controllability was a priority over ultimate stopping power" and "applications such as touring cars" mean that it's ONLY A TRACK PAD? I guess it's correct that the words "street pad" doesn't show up in the description, but, and I may be wrong, from the description, it seems to me that the PFC-97 *is* a combo street/track pad, with the best and worst of both worlds. Or I've been driving 35k+ miles on two cars for the last three years on TRACK PADS with no problems.... :-) ============ >a 996 is not a BMW. I'm pretty sure it has significantly larger calipers for the weight of the car & consequently will be easier on brakes than nearly any BMW, esp the heavy E46 M3. I've ridden with instructors in 993's with big reds on Pagid street pads & they have no trouble at all with brakes. doesn't mean that I can assume that the stock Pagid pads on a BMW are able to handle the same treatment. ______ Thank goodness, a 996 is *NOT* an E46 M3. :-) By coincidence, I was instructing a group 1 student at Lime Rock yesterday who was having some brake fade problems with his stock brake system on his E46 M3. Do I think this system needs to be upgraded? Yup! But I wasn't talking about stock Pagids on a BMW, I was just talking about *my* experience with the PFC-97 compound on two of my cars. I've had no rotor wear problems, and dusting is minimal. Maybe that's different with an E46 M3, who knows... maybe someone can extrapolate from my experience, maybe not. ============ >> 2. Curious about the comment that race pads are less "safe" than street >> pads. More expensive? More wear on rotors? More dust? More noise? Sure, >> I can understand all of those concerns. But less safe? How? >they don't usually work as well cold as they do hot. this might not be the case with PF97's, but since they're a track pad it's a fair assumption to make that they have to have some heat in them to work. note the PF link above states they are effective from 167�F and up. I don't think the pads are going to be that hot until they get a stop or two into them & why take the risk on the street. why potentially get into an unsafe situation on the street when you can avoid it ? plus not everyone has lots of track time or experience, so suggesting track pads for the street isn't a good idea for most people. _______ In all seriousness, Ben, please explain to me how this pad would not work when cold. Are you implying that the pad won't bite when cold? That the driver can step on the pedal but cannot lock up the tires? My basic premise is that any braking system that can lock up the brakes (or trigger ABS) has enought stopping power - the traction limit is NOT AT THE PAD, but rather at the tire. Can a track pad be forceful enough to lock up the wheel when bitterly cold? ABSOLUTELY. Is there a difference in modulation? In brake torque? Perhaps, but enough to make street driving "dangerous"? Educate me. As for operating temps, 167 degrees F doesn't sound very high to me. Again, I'm not an engineer, but don't brakes get to 167 degrees F fairly quickly, especially if ambient is anywhere from, say, 30-90 degrees F? A quick check on Google produced two interesting results: http://www.auto-ware.com/techref/brakepads.htm This seems to indicate that operating temps for a whole list of pads is much higher than 167 degrees F. http://www.raceshopper.com/hawk_brake_compounds.shtml This seems to indicate that operating temps for true race pads (Hawk) is much higher than 167 degrees F. Regardless, if you or anyone can clue me in on how track pads are dangerous for street use, I'd love to learn. ========= >> seems to me that changing between street and track pads on the morning of >> the event is a huge PITA - if the only purpose is to try to be "safer" on >> the street; if one wants to change to save wear-and-tear on the rotor and >> cleaning dust and avoiding some squealing, be my guest (though I'd rather >> use some anti-squeal, rinse the wheel more often, and live with slightly >> shorter rotor life than spend an hour or two every track day swapping >> pads.... :-) >you don't need to do it on Saturday night at the track (I always live with the added dust & wear from the usually very short drive to/from hotel/dinner, but also often leave the car at the track & catch a ride with someone else) just at the beginning & end of the event. you have 4 & 2 piston calipers on the 996 and should be able to do pad changes in less than 15 minutes per axle, it seems silly to burn up the track pads on the street. then again I don't have the money to spend on a 996 anyway, so your priorities might be different. >bottom line is that when you start to go to a specific pad for use on the track that's where it should be used. just like track tires. if you want to drive R-compounds to/from the track & run around on track pads as well then there's no room to complain if they don't last or make noise or dust or whatever. the fact that you're able to run PF97's on the track & street in your 996 application is not directly relatable to BMW's. __________ Well, first off, I bought my wife the 996 (used) because it was CHEAPER than a new E46 M3. In fact, today, a very nice ~50k mile 1999 996s can be had in the $33k-$37k range, and will spank a stock E46 M3 at the track all day, especially under braking. :-) As for costs, well, I don't know how much the PFC pads are for a BMW E46 M3, but they were quite reasonable for the 996, at $179/set front and $155/set rear. And downright cheap for my other sports car (about 1/5 the dealer price for stock pads!). More to the point, I simply responded to an issue regarding the PFC-97 pad. Since, IMHO, it IS a "combination street/track pad", it designed precisely for people who don't want to go to the bother of swapping pads at every track event. Your rejoinder about "priorities being different" is exactly right - if someone wants to spend an extra hour for every event (swapping in then swapping out), and bringing a jack and tools to do so, then so be it - more power to you! But for someone who is running street tires, or drove out on R-compounds, and who doesn't want to bother doing any unnecessary work, well, IMHO, something like the PFC-97 is just right. And I'm certainly not complaining about them lasting or making noise or dust - remember, in my post, I said that they last surprisingly long, they're not that noisy and brake dust is manageable. And most importantly, for us lazy b*st*rds who don't want to bother changing pads, using a combo pad on the street is a LOT CHEAPER than using stock pads on the track! :-) As one example, because I am a lazy sumbeyatch, I woke up yesterday morning at 5:10 a.m., hopped into the wife's 996, equipped with PFC-97s and new Kumho Ecsta MX street tires, and drove out to Lime Rock, about 2 hrs and 20 minutes away. Showed up, got my registration packet and tech sticker, took a track bag, my cooler and my helmet out of the car, adjusted tire pressure, taped up the headlights and headed off to my first session. I was ready to drive about 10 minutes after I arrived. And I left for home about 10 minutes after my last session. *OR* I could have towed out, or arranged for a friend to bring my Pirelli P-Zero racing slicks, jack and tools, and headed out the night before, stayed in a motel, gotten up early, gone to the track, jacked the car up to swap tires, and then go drive. I've done it both ways, and will do it both ways again in the future. Do I have more fun on slicks? Yeah. Enough to make it worth the whole extra bit of bother? Sometimes. But yesterday, FWIW, the 996 was perhaps the fastest stock street car on the track (and a lot faster than some quasi-race cars arriving on trailers) in the instructor session. And since it sure as heck ain't my so-called driving ability.... :-) Is my 996 application directly relatable to BMWs? Maybe not. But perhaps the E46 M3 owner can derive some value out of my experience. I certainly don't think it's completely irrelevant. vty, --Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:14:54 -0500 From: ben keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: E36: Max spacer size with standard lug bolts? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Pavel Tcholakov wrote: > I might have a bit of a problem sourcing studs locally, but I don't > think those look ugly. Sounds like the best way to go if I have several > different wheel sets. you don't need to source studs locally, get them from any number of sources online. you can get BBS from Jack Money ([EMAIL PROTECTED]), TCKline from TC's store (http://www.tcklineracing.com/wheelstud.htm) and several other places. I've been told _not_ to get the studs which the Tire Rack sells by someone who had some & didn't enjoy the experience (tho Tire Rack did promptly refund his money w/o incident or concern). I think I'm going to opt for the ones TC has as I like the rounded ends on them. installation shouldn't be too difficult, you just need to take a bit of time & have the right equipment to do it (nothing special). Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:37:13 -0500 (EST) From: Joel Gallun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Pavel Tcholakov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] re: sway bars (from last week!) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Pavel Tcholakov wrote: > Thanks, Gary. Far more than I expected. Can you recommend any such book > that's suitable for someone interested in understanding vehicle dynamics > and handling but not necessarily to the level of engineering of say > building a car from scratch? I.e. something for an enthusiast rather > than a pro in the field? Fred Puhn's "How to Make Your Car Handle". Old, but still correct AFAIK. The pics in the book are a hoot. Joel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:41:42 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Derian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [uuc] re: sway bars (from last week!) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=BOOK&PROD_CD=R-114 http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=BOOK&PROD_CD=R-146 http://www.sae.org/servlets/pdEvent?OBJECT_TYPE=PDEventInfo&PAGE=getPDEventInfo&EVT_NAME=C0249 Search authors Gillepsie and Milliken Gary Derian --- Pavel Tcholakov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thanks, Gary. Far more than I expected. Can you > recommend any such book > that's suitable for someone interested in > understanding vehicle dynamics > and handling but not necessarily to the level of > engineering of say > building a car from scratch? I.e. something for an > enthusiast rather > than a pro in the field? > > Pavel > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Gary Derian > > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 4:02 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [UUC] [uuc] re: sway bars (from last > week!) > > > > > > You need a basic engineering text on vehicle > dynamics. > > In a nutshell I can describe the method. > > > Search the > ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, > founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and > home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:46:46 -0500 (EST) From: Joel Gallun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Gary Derian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] re: sway bars (from last week!) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Gary Derian wrote: > Search authors Gillepsie and Milliken I'm sure Milliken is just a little light reading for Gary, but for me its the equivalent of a college course. YMMV. joel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:59:45 +0200 From: "Pavel Tcholakov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] re: sway bars (from last week!) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> *Laughs* Judging from the info on the SAE website, I can see what you mean. I knew all that physics in high school and college would come in handy one day! But I think How To Make Your Car Handle might be a better place to start. Thanks guys! Pavel > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joel Gallun > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 4:47 PM > To: Gary Derian > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [UUC] [uuc] re: sway bars (from last week!) > > > On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Gary Derian wrote: > > > Search authors Gillepsie and Milliken > > I'm sure Milliken is just a little light reading for Gary, > but for me its the equivalent of a college course. YMMV. > > joel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:08:22 -0800 From: John Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: R-4 > PF9x > Blue > HT-10 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > this is very odd. I don't think I've ever heard anyone note an R-4 > as being a more agressive or otherwise more effective pad than > any PF9x. the progression I've always heard (and experienced) > is R-4, PF9x (or PF0x now), Hawk Blue, Hawk HT-10. there > are also various Pagids which fit into there somewhere. In dry-track conditions at Laguna the PF90s are in trouble after four laps on both my SHO (3400lb, 260HP) and Mustang (3200lb, 375HP) both running 2-piston PBR fronts on 12.5/13" rotors (SHO rear brakes don't matter, Mustang rear brakes 12" PBRs.) In the Mustang I'd settled on R-4 fronts and PF90 rears, but the next time that car hits the track it's going to have a whole lot more brake on it anyway. I second the don't-drive-to-the-track-on-track-pads philosophy, fortunately the PBR calipers are among the easiest calipers to swap pads in (at least among those calipers where you actually have to remove the caliper body from the car to do it.) I've even done it with hot calipers in 3min per side (wheel removal not included) - bring your thick leather work gloves. John. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:23:14 -0800 From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [personal] [e36 M3] steering question. Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Since I'm on a low carb I'll take a Vodka Martini ;-) Seriously - if I owned an E36 I'd run out right now and check that coupler, that fact that they come loose is a bit scary IMHO. Marco -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sean Cordone Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 8:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [personal] [UUC] [e36 M3] steering question. Bullseye. What a difference. Marco, I owe you a beer. --SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:46:07 -0800 To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [personal] Re: [UUC] RE>Misguided R&D // [e36 M3] steering question. > if memory serves there is a coupler or u-joint or something somewhere on the > lower part of the steering column in the engine bay. The shafts do come > loose on the coupler. I can't remember if it's a set screw or bolts or what > but mine was loose. Check it. > > Marco > -- _____________________________________________________________ Web-based SMS services available at http://www.operamail.com. >From your mailbox to local or overseas cell phones. Powered by Outblaze Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:26:50 -0600 (CST) From: "Kevin Jay (Mr.Fabulous)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Spring compressors Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I bought a clamshell-type compressor from Harbor Frieght when I first put H&Rs on my E36. It's a total POS, & wound up in the trash. My cheap-o threaded rod compressor hasn't been used but perhaps six times during its life, but so far it's been pretty good to me. - k --- original message --- From: "Michael Gambini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Spring compressors Depends what you want to spend. There are lots of Brannicks on Ebay, but they are still 100's of $. Most have a wheel on the top which seems to work well. There are also some good quality clamshell units for $100-200. I have used the threaded rod ones a number of times and have sworn to never use one again. Last year I did shocks on my wife's Passat(all strut like assemblies), and the threaded rod started bending on one of the struts and scared the $%^^ out of me. Taylor rental has a floor mounted, screw driven unit that looks like a good rental at $16/day. MikeG ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [UUC] Spring compressors > Okay, I've had it. I've got four cars (including two Bimmers) with strut > or strut-like suspension elements. > > I'm tired of either (a) struggling with the hooks-on-threaded-rod-type > spring compressors or (b) shaping my work-on-the-car schedule around being > able to haul them to a shop for the benchwork. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:30:25 -0800 From: "Bora Akyol (BMW)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: R-4 > PF9x > Blue > HT-10 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> R4 is 10 steps-down from PF90. Hawk Blue is OK, but it eats rotors up on the street. For an all around pad, look no further than Pagid Orange. You can drive it on the street without thrashing your rotors and then drive it in a race and feel confident every time you go for the pedal. This is what I run on my 89 M3 race car. Bora > John Miller wrote: > >> I've always regarded the PF90 as a good pad for easy-on-brakes tracks, or >> wet days at Laguna Seca or other brake-killer tracks, or a good rear pad in >> conjunction with something more serious in front. The R4 being the next >> step up from that, and the Hawk Blue the next step up from there. > > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(12 messages) **********
