The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 216 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: disabling CEL? Re: disabling CEL? Re: disabling CEL? Re: disabling CEL? Re: Wired News: "Drivers Want Code to Their Cars" Re: [bmwuucdigest] digest(15 messages) Re: re-fueling with the engine running / OBD-II Re: disabling CEL? Re: disabling CEL? Umoron level BMW website designers Indy 500 and safety
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 07:38:32 -0700 From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: disabling CEL? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> You won't pass smog check in CA with an error in the CEL system that is emissions related. You could pass the sniffer but if there is an error it must be fixed and or cleared, and depending on certain cars the system requires some bizarre driving ritual to make sure it's cleared. Marco -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dennis Liu Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 7:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [UUC] disabling CEL? Here's the follow-up question, I guess. It sounds like the OBD-II system primarily benefits dealers that charge to service the system. So what's the downside of just pulling the plug (or using a piece of electrical tape) on the check-engine-light? If the car is running otherwise fine, what's the penalty? Just curious.... vty, --Dennis -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rob Levinson Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 11:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [UUC] Wired News: What Brett said - bingo. The "faults" that trigger that particular code could be any one of a number of things. It's literally a case of the system designed to solve problems actually causing a new kind of problem. We were tracing a problem in my OBD-II truck all over the place (same code that is triggered by a "loose gas cap") and the damn problem turned out to be a dead spider in one of the ****ing OBD-II sensors! Normal shop diagnostics would have been at least 6-8 hours for the multiple attempts, plus a new gas cap, O2 sensor, pulling the evap canister out, etc., until inspecting the innards of one "properly working" sensor and discovering dried-up Boris in there. OBD-II is our tax dollars at waste, more forced technology that we pay for over and over. HAving legislators determine what goes on in the technical realm is like having an electrical engineer decide foreign policy. Actually worse, you know the engineer possesses something resembling intelligence. - Rob ---- Original Message ---- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> -----Original Message----- >> I understand the need for, and support the legislation mentioned in >> the article, but I do have to ask this question: After twelve >check >> engine lights for a loose gas cap, why doesn't she just screw it on >> tight to begin with? > >Because the gas cap is not loose, and the dealer sucks dogs balls. Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:37:35 -0400 From: Brian Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: disabling CEL? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The "bizarre driving ritual" is the OBDII drive cycle which is a set of operating conditions that must be met in order to determine that all emissions sensors and components are working properly. It helps to think of OBDII as a checklist, and as each emissions component is observed by the ECU to be behaving properly the box for that component gets checked off. So a clean OBDII bill of health requires positive confirmation, not just an absence of codes. In part this serves to prevent someone from disconnecting the battery in the parking lot to clear codes immediately prior to the inspection. While the OBDII scan will not show any fault codes it will show that the drive cycle is incomplete and the car will not be passed. If you're interested in the details of the drive cycle Google "OBDII Drive cycle." The drive cycle varies somewhat by manufacturer based on their specific implementation of OBDII requirements, and probably varies over models and/or model years as the implementation has evolved. Brian '94 325ic Marco Romani wrote: >You won't pass smog check in CA with an error in the CEL system that is >emissions related. You could pass the sniffer but if there is an error it >must be fixed and or cleared, and depending on certain cars the system >requires some bizarre driving ritual to make sure it's cleared. > >Marco > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:48:12 -0700 From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: disabling CEL? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yeah a bud's Porsche failed the CEL check and it took him something like 3 weeks to get through the ritual since he only commuted about 5 miles in traffic. He had to make a point of one weekend going for a long drive to finally get thing reset. Marco -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Brian Daley Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 10:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [UUC] disabling CEL? The "bizarre driving ritual" is the OBDII drive cycle which is a set of operating conditions that must be met in order to determine that all emissions sensors and components are working properly. It helps to think of OBDII as a checklist, and as each emissions component is observed by the ECU to be behaving properly the box for that component gets checked off. So a clean OBDII bill of health requires positive confirmation, not just an absence of codes. In part this serves to prevent someone from disconnecting the battery in the parking lot to clear codes immediately prior to the inspection. While the OBDII scan will not show any fault codes it will show that the drive cycle is incomplete and the car will not be passed. If you're interested in the details of the drive cycle Google "OBDII Drive cycle." The drive cycle varies somewhat by manufacturer based on their specific implementation of OBDII requirements, and probably varies over models and/or model years as the implementation has evolved. Brian '94 325ic Marco Romani wrote: >You won't pass smog check in CA with an error in the CEL system that is >emissions related. You could pass the sniffer but if there is an error it >must be fixed and or cleared, and depending on certain cars the system >requires some bizarre driving ritual to make sure it's cleared. > >Marco > > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:15:43 -0400 From: Brian Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: disabling CEL? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> If you Google it I'd bet you can find the Porsche drive cycle. There are walkthroughs of the steps necessary to complete the cycle for many marques. Brian Marco Romani wrote: >Yeah a bud's Porsche failed the CEL check and it took him something like 3 >weeks to get through the ritual since he only commuted about 5 miles in >traffic. He had to make a point of one weekend going for a long drive to >finally get thing reset. > >Marco > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Brian Daley >Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 10:38 AM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: [UUC] disabling CEL? > > >The "bizarre driving ritual" is the OBDII drive cycle which is a set of >operating conditions that must be met in order to determine that all >emissions sensors and components are working properly. It helps to >think of OBDII as a checklist, and as each emissions component is >observed by the ECU to be behaving properly the box for that component >gets checked off. So a clean OBDII bill of health requires positive >confirmation, not just an absence of codes. In part this serves to >prevent someone from disconnecting the battery in the parking lot to >clear codes immediately prior to the inspection. While the OBDII scan >will not show any fault codes it will show that the drive cycle is >incomplete and the car will not be passed. >If you're interested in the details of the drive cycle Google "OBDII >Drive cycle." The drive cycle varies somewhat by manufacturer based on >their specific implementation of OBDII requirements, and probably varies >over models and/or model years as the implementation has evolved. > >Brian >'94 325ic > >Marco Romani wrote: > > > >>You won't pass smog check in CA with an error in the CEL system that is >>emissions related. You could pass the sniffer but if there is an error it >>must be fixed and or cleared, and depending on certain cars the system >>requires some bizarre driving ritual to make sure it's cleared. >> >>Marco >> >> >> >> > > >Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >__________________________________________________________________________ >In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > >UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate >Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! >908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > >Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >__________________________________________________________________________ >In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > >UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate >Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! >908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:23:30 -0400 From: "Dennis Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jim Ettinger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Ferrari List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "BMW List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "911" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Wired News: "Drivers Want Code to Their Cars" Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jim wrote: >Is the correct name of the bill the "Motor Vehicle Owners' Right to Repair Act". I would like to write my Congress person to support this bill. ________________ Yup! More info here: http://www.aftermarket.org/Government/Grassroots_Activities/hr2735.asp vty, --Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 1:00 PM Subject: [Ferrari] Wired News: "Drivers Want Code to Their Cars" > http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63615,00.html > > Drivers Want Code to Their Cars > By Julia Scheeres > > 02:00 AM May. 31, 2004 PT > > Rachel Seymour, a college student from Portland, Oregon, has had her 2002 > Kia Spectra serviced 12 times for a Check Engine light problem. Each time, > she's forced to take it to a Kia dealership, where a technician hooks her > car up to a computer, runs a battery of tests and charges her $120 to > diagnose and repair the same problem: a loose gas cap. > > Seymour said she has no problem screwing a gas cap into place, and that the > light has even come on while she's driving home from getting her car > serviced. But the dealership has stubbornly stood by its computer diagnosis, > saying the car's sensors are detecting vapors from a loose gas cap and > triggering the Check Engine light -- a "consumer error" that is not covered > under the car's warranty. > > Fed up with wasting time and money, Seymour resorted to a low-tech solution > to mask the high-tech problem: She covered the warning light with electrical > tape so she wouldn't have to look at it. > > "There is really no time in my schedule for sitting around a car dealership > listening to some fat guy in a clip-on tie tell me that the problem is my > fault," she said. "Instead of explaining anything to me they just pull out a > warranty sheet with a highlighted portion indicating that they don't cover > Check Engine light problems." > > A bill floating through Congress could help people like Seymour by forcing > automakers to share diagnostic codes with car buyers and independent > mechanics. The Motor Vehicle Owners' Right to Repair Act would give Seymour > the means to determine whether the Check Engine light signaled another gas > cap vagary or a major oil leak. The legislation would also allow Seymour to > choose an independent -- and possibly cheaper -- repair shop instead of > being forced to go to the dealership. > > The legislation argues that consumers own their vehicles in their entirety > and should be able to access their onboard computers. Just how the codes > would be released to car owners isn't addressed, but possibilities include > publishing them on CDs or websites, or requiring carmakers to create > indicator lights that would pinpoint problems instead of lumping them > together under the generic Check Engine-type warnings, said David Parde, > president of the Coalition for Auto Repair Equality, a group representing > independent mechanics. > > The bill, which was presented in both the House and the Senate, would > require the Federal Trade Commission to supervise the data disclosure and to > mediate disputes. > > Automakers oppose the legislation because they fear it would compel them to > release proprietary codes that detail how different automotive components > are made. These calibration codes would allow independent parts > manufacturers to copy components that cost millions of dollars to develop, > they argue. > > Carmakers agreed to release the diagnostic codes online in August 2003 in an > attempt to pre-empt the legislation, but many manufacturers have not fully > cooperated, said Parde. > > "We're auditing these sites and there are huge gaps in the data," he said. > "The legislation is necessary to make sure they keep their word. Right now, > they could just turn all the information off tomorrow." > > Charles Territo, spokesman for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, a > group representing the major carmakers, said the delay is due to the > complexity of modern cars. > > "Each model contains hundreds of codes," he said. "It's a huge undertaking > to take every vehicle and to put every single code on the Internet. As we > find gaps, we are filling them in." > > Computerized cars came on the market full throttle in 1996 after the passage > of the Clean Air Act, which required onboard diagnostic systems to regulate > exhaust emissions. Manufacturers quickly expanded cars' computing power to > control additional functions ranging from airbag deployment to power > steering. > > According to the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, today's cars have up > to 50 microprocessors managing engine performance -- meaning the computing > power in the average Toyota Camry is 1,000 times more complex than the > system that guided Apollo 11 to the moon. > > But carmakers have kept a tight grip on access to automotive computers, > forcing consumers to get their vehicles serviced at dealerships when > independent repair shops can't access the car's brain. > > Historically, non-dealer shops have performed 75 percent of vehicle service > and repairs, according to the automakers' own statistics. Independent shops > charge that automakers are trying to muscle in on this lucrative business -- > which some analysts estimate at $200 billion a year -- by increasing > computer functions in cars and restricting the access keys. > > Neighborhood garages must pay to download the diagnostic codes from > automakers' websites and purchase pricey scanners to communicate with > automotive computers. Nevertheless, independent mechanics are frequently > forced to turn away longtime clients because so many of the codes are > unavailable for late-model cars. > > "A lot of these cars say 'code undefined' and require the dealer's scan > tool," said Sam Giammalvo, who works at his family shop in New Bedford, > Massachusetts. "It upsets independents like me because we're losing service > dollars and it makes us look unprofessional in the eyes of our customers." > > Ermino Caporole, the owner of P&E Auto in Morton Grove, Illinois, said he > has separate scanners for each car model, but still loses 10 percent of his > business to dealerships because of the information blackout. On several > occasions, he has had to tow a customer's car to a dealership after > realizing he couldn't access the codes. > > Some weekend wrenches have bought scaled-down versions of the scanners used > by auto shops to tinker with their engines. Jay Hamill, a PC technician from > Macedon, New York, spent several hundred dollars on a product called > AutoXray to perform checkups on his 1994 Ford Bronco, but said the device > has saved him money on repairs. > > "Knowing the problems that the computer is reporting can help keep you from > getting ripped off by a shady mechanic or dealer," he said. "But this does > require some automotive knowledge, something that most people just flat-out > refuse to learn." > > The scanner only lets Hamill decipher trouble codes and clear them. Other > tools, such as the Hypertech Power Programmer, let consumers modify their > cars' computer settings to increase horsepower and torque. > > Bryan Hanks, who has taken his 2002 Toyota Prius to his local Houston > dealership four times since a single sensor malfunctioned and the Check > Engine signal prevented him from using the car's electronic display, said > automakers should incorporate USB ports in dashboards to allow consumers to > download error messages to a laptop. > > "If this occurs again once the vehicle goes out of warranty, I'm going to > have to fork over $90 or so to have the error message reset by the dealer," > he said. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Win More eBay Auctions for Less Money > Nip it in the Bid > http://www.BidNip.com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 10:45:42 -0500 From: "Robert M. Ellsworth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [bmwuucdigest] digest(15 messages) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Scott et al: > I understand the need for, and support the legislation mentioned in > the article, but I do have to ask this question: After twelve check > engine lights for a loose gas cap, why doesn't she just screw it on > tight to begin with? I can answer this very specifically, because not only does it happen to BMWs also, it has happened to my M73 E38 repeatedly. Here's why: Folks (not necessarily women) drive into gas stations on hot days, with the air conditioning on, perhaps with kids in car seats. They don't want to turn the car off while refueling, so they take the cap off & put the hose in the tank with the engine running. It may take a few minutes for the tank to fill, and then a while longer after the pump clicks off, the hose is put back, the receipt is printed, etc. before the cap is replaced and tightened. It is not uncommon to see the Check Engine light come on when this happens; I believe that the internal logic will start by flagging this as an intermittent problem, but will set a permanent code if it happens "too often" within a certain number of engine starts -- I've had to reset the Check Engine light for "emissions problems" directly related to this twice, when making long trips with multiple 'running refuels', such as driving to Florida or California from Tennessee with the kids in the car. Irritating and dumb, but I guess it's Federally mandated rather than being (as I initially thought) another typical example of Bavarian computer programming by the folks who brought you i-Drive. RME ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 12:53:35 -0400 From: ben keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: re-fueling with the engine running / OBD-II Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> since it's illegal (and potentially dangerous) in most (all ?) states to refuel the car with the engine running, it's logical that the diagnostic system be set up to catch this situation as a fault. it's not unlike you getting a hole in the gas tank while driving, since the car doesn't know what the situation is. * as I mentioned in a previous post, early OBD-II systems would pretty routinely set a check engine light for a single occurence of not tightening the cap or re-fueling with the engine running. after getting bitten with too many customer issues due to this functionality, the systems were updated to look for repeated occurences and only trigger (or leave illuminated) the light when it happens too often or is persistent. just turn the car off like the law & common sense dictates and you won't have the problem. don't mean to sound harsh, but it's probably smart to get out of the car & stretch your legs a bit on a long trip like that anyway, even if you are crusing along in E38 comfort. Ben *it would be possible to write logic into the DME which would correlate speed (zero), transmission condition (neutral or park), fuel indication (increasing during the fill-up) and not set a check engine light for a gross evaporative emissions fault when the car was re-fuelled with the engine running, but thats a lot of work to help a customer who isn't applying common sense to re-fueling. Robert wrote: > Folks (not necessarily women) drive into gas stations on hot days, with the > air conditioning on, perhaps with kids in car seats. They don't want to > turn the car off while refueling, so they take the cap off & put the hose in > the tank with the engine running. It may take a few minutes for the tank to > fill, and then a while longer after the pump clicks off, the hose is put > back, the receipt is printed, etc. before the cap is replaced and tightened. > > It is not uncommon to see the Check Engine light come on when this happens; > I believe that the internal logic will start by flagging this as an > intermittent problem, but will set a permanent code if it happens "too > often" within a certain number of engine starts -- > > I've had to reset the Check Engine light for "emissions problems" directly > related to this twice, when making long trips with multiple 'running > refuels', such as driving to Florida or California from Tennessee with the > kids in the car. Irritating and dumb, but I guess it's Federally mandated > rather than being (as I initially thought) another typical example of > Bavarian computer programming by the folks who brought you i-Drive. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 10:32:51 -0400 From: ben keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: disabling CEL? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> it might not pass emissions testing with the light lit, even if you pull the bulb the codes will be stored in the DME. I think some states check for codes in the DME as part of the inspection process. it will potentially not run at it's full factory state of tune if the system is not sure what's going on. if something actually goes wrong which would require you to have the car fixed you won't know. if an O2 sensor goes bad you'll lose performance and likely fuel economy. tho I don't think this is the case with BMW's, it's possible that the check engine light is also used as an "engine fault" light, which means a more serious problem is involved rather than just something emissions related. tho many of the fault codes are annoyances to the driver & don't effect performance, some of them could lead to things that do, so you'd rather know what they mean. without the manufacturers releasing the codes at a reasonable cost to end users & independent shops they force you to the dealer, which isn't a good thing. Ben Dennis Liu wrote: > Here's the follow-up question, I guess. It sounds like the OBD-II system > primarily benefits dealers that charge to service the system. So what's the > downside of just pulling the plug (or using a piece of electrical tape) on > the check-engine-light? If the car is running otherwise fine, what's the > penalty? > > Just curious.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 11:24:46 -0500 From: "Scott Staewen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: disabling CEL? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For obsessive-compulsives like myself, the thought of a MIL burning away under that tape is very distressing. What if the warning is dire? I just *cannot* enjoy driving my car until I know the cause and it's fixed. Is it just me? Are any codes short of triggering limp-mode unimportant as far as engine health is concerned? Scott Staewen > >Here's the follow-up question, I guess. It sounds like the OBD-II system >primarily benefits dealers that charge to service the system. So what's >the >downside of just pulling the plug (or using a piece of electrical tape) on >the check-engine-light? If the car is running otherwise fine, what's the >penalty? > >Just curious.... > >vty, > >--Dennis > >----- _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee� Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 12:04:13 -0700 From: JKerouac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "[uucdigest]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, bmw digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Umoron level BMW website designers Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Guess what happens when trying to enter the http://www.bmwtechinfo.com/ website using either Mozilla or its Firefox browser? We're sorry, but the BMW TIS website was designed for Internet Explorer 5.0+ and Netscape 6.0+ Web-Browsers running on the Microsoft Windows operating system. Currently, you are using Netscape 0 which must be upgraded to view this site. You may upgrade your browser version by clicking on the respective link below. I run a nearly IE free server and prefer to avoid like the plague that "hack me, oh hack me baby", "a patch a day still won't keep the hackers away" MS browser, and the current Nyetscape that is based on the problematic early Mozilla releases. Anyone know a contact person at BMW to get this umoron level of programming corrected or a quick regedit that will fake out the website? tia, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:22:48 -0500 From: Clarence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: UUC Digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Indy 500 and safety Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> OBMWC is that we, as a group on this list, seem quite concerned w/safety. Not having fancy cable or satellite I'm excited when something other than NASCAR is televised. Anyway, due to the rain delay, there was an awful lot of talk about all the safety features introduced over the years. Things are always being improved. Good. BUT, why wasn't Morgan Freeman or his passenger, in the pace car, wearing a seat belt???? Maybe he used a lap belt (hard to believe) but there was absolutely nothing running across his shoulder. Didn't pace car drivers used to wear a helmut, too? Anybody else notice this? Clarence West Bend, WI ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(11 messages) **********
