The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 460 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Re: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Re: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Re: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Re: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Re: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Re: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption 99 M3 for sale.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:53:58 -0800 From: "Scott & Charlotte Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "UUC Digest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Pavel, if Jim Conforti were still hanging out here, he would tell you that you should not adjust anything inside the AFM. Assuming there was nothing wrong with the AFM before you started, adjusting the spring tension on the air flap will result in the ECU thinking that you are getting either more or less air into the engine than you really are. It will then supply the amount of fuel to match. If the ECU thinks you are getting more air than you really are, it will run rich. This may be more evident at some temps than at others. The other part that is worth checking is the coolant temp sensor. Scott Miller GGC BMW CCA >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:42:26 +0200 >From: Pavel Tcholakov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Hello list, > >I've had this problem (??) forever, and I'm not sure if there's even >anything one can do about it. > >My car seems to gulp fuel by the litre when it's cold - it doesn't >even have to be pushed hard. I can just start it in the morning and >let it idle while I pick a new CD and buckle up my seat belt - and >there's already a *noticeable* difference on the fuel level gauge. The >weird thing is, once the temp gauge gets to the middle this apparent >high consumption goes away. Also, subsequent starts during the day >don't exhibit this behavior if the car is at least a little bit warm >(i.e. it's not been sitting the entire day). The car is a '94 320i >equipped with a M50B20TU engine, with a Siemens ECU (and not Bosch). > >I would suspect a leak but it only seems to happen after the car is >started, and then only for a short period of time until it warms up. I >don't have a chip, but the car's been AFR tuned on a dyno - one can >set this sort of thing on the AFM, I was told. Is it possible they did >something to it then? I don't think. The exhaust burns a nice grey >colour so I'm confident it's not running rich all the time. I do >however get a smell of petrol (ok, that's gas for you Americans ;-)) >when I first start it in the morning but it's not so bad that it >couldn't be explained by cold-start rich running. > >Any hints? Is it normal? If it's not, should I even worry about it? >I'm getting about 22-25mpg around town and well over 30 on the >highway, but if it didn't gulp so much fuel when started it would be >even better. > >Best regards, >Pavel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:02:46 -0800 From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Good point about the CTS. If it's TU, you will run rich, I've seen a bad CTS cause very rough cold starting, but Pavel didn't mention a problem starting cold. And it seems to run fine warm, I would think a bad CTS would run rich all the time. But it could be an issue. Marco -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Scott & Charlotte Miller Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 6:54 AM To: UUC Digest Subject: Re: [UUC] [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Pavel, if Jim Conforti were still hanging out here, he would tell you that you should not adjust anything inside the AFM. Assuming there was nothing wrong with the AFM before you started, adjusting the spring tension on the air flap will result in the ECU thinking that you are getting either more or less air into the engine than you really are. It will then supply the amount of fuel to match. If the ECU thinks you are getting more air than you really are, it will run rich. This may be more evident at some temps than at others. The other part that is worth checking is the coolant temp sensor. Scott Miller GGC BMW CCA >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:42:26 +0200 >From: Pavel Tcholakov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Hello list, > >I've had this problem (??) forever, and I'm not sure if there's even >anything one can do about it. > >My car seems to gulp fuel by the litre when it's cold - it doesn't >even have to be pushed hard. I can just start it in the morning and >let it idle while I pick a new CD and buckle up my seat belt - and >there's already a *noticeable* difference on the fuel level gauge. The >weird thing is, once the temp gauge gets to the middle this apparent >high consumption goes away. Also, subsequent starts during the day >don't exhibit this behavior if the car is at least a little bit warm >(i.e. it's not been sitting the entire day). The car is a '94 320i >equipped with a M50B20TU engine, with a Siemens ECU (and not Bosch). > >I would suspect a leak but it only seems to happen after the car is >started, and then only for a short period of time until it warms up. I >don't have a chip, but the car's been AFR tuned on a dyno - one can >set this sort of thing on the AFM, I was told. Is it possible they did >something to it then? I don't think. The exhaust burns a nice grey >colour so I'm confident it's not running rich all the time. I do >however get a smell of petrol (ok, that's gas for you Americans ;-)) >when I first start it in the morning but it's not so bad that it >couldn't be explained by cold-start rich running. > >Any hints? Is it normal? If it's not, should I even worry about it? >I'm getting about 22-25mpg around town and well over 30 on the >highway, but if it didn't gulp so much fuel when started it would be >even better. > >Best regards, >Pavel Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:42:49 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Brian Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Don't all M50s have hot-wire MAFs as opposed to the vane-type AFM you describe? If so there's nothing to be adjusted, mechanically anyway. Also if the ECU thinks you're flowing more air and runs rich as a result it won't do so for long. That's what the O2 sensors are there for. Adaptive will lean it back out to stoich when the O2 sensors show rich in closed-loop, at least up to a point. You'd have to do something pretty radical to a MAF to change the airflow/voltage curve beyond the limits of adaptive to compensate for it, and if you exceed that limit it will throw a check engine light. Brian '94 325ic -----Original Message----- From: Scott & Charlotte Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Dec 16, 2004 9:53 AM To: UUC Digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [UUC] [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Pavel, if Jim Conforti were still hanging out here, he would tell you that you should not adjust anything inside the AFM. Assuming there was nothing wrong with the AFM before you started, adjusting the spring tension on the air flap will result in the ECU thinking that you are getting either more or less air into the engine than you really are. It will then supply the amount of fuel to match. If the ECU thinks you are getting more air than you really are, it will run rich. This may be more evident at some temps than at others. The other part that is worth checking is the coolant temp sensor. Scott Miller GGC BMW CCA >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:42:26 +0200 >From: Pavel Tcholakov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Hello list, > >I've had this problem (??) forever, and I'm not sure if there's even >anything one can do about it. > >My car seems to gulp fuel by the litre when it's cold - it doesn't >even have to be pushed hard. I can just start it in the morning and >let it idle while I pick a new CD and buckle up my seat belt - and >there's already a *noticeable* difference on the fuel level gauge. The >weird thing is, once the temp gauge gets to the middle this apparent >high consumption goes away. Also, subsequent starts during the day >don't exhibit this behavior if the car is at least a little bit warm >(i.e. it's not been sitting the entire day). The car is a '94 320i >equipped with a M50B20TU engine, with a Siemens ECU (and not Bosch). > >I would suspect a leak but it only seems to happen after the car is >started, and then only for a short period of time until it warms up. I >don't have a chip, but the car's been AFR tuned on a dyno - one can >set this sort of thing on the AFM, I was told. Is it possible they did >something to it then? I don't think. The exhaust burns a nice grey >colour so I'm confident it's not running rich all the time. I do >however get a smell of petrol (ok, that's gas for you Americans ;-)) >when I first start it in the morning but it's not so bad that it >couldn't be explained by cold-start rich running. > >Any hints? Is it normal? If it's not, should I even worry about it? >I'm getting about 22-25mpg around town and well over 30 on the >highway, but if it didn't gulp so much fuel when started it would be >even better. > >Best regards, >Pavel Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:46:21 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: ben keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you sure that it's actually using fuel at anything other than the normal rate ? perhaps the fuel sender is having some sort of start-up issue of it's own and/or the time-constant in the sender logic is such that it shows an initially high level and then drops quickly when you drive a bit, then levels out. if you normally park on a slight incline or something the gauge could be reflecting the inclined level and then correcting itself once you drive a bit. if the time constant in the logic is too great it will stay at a high/low reading after being parked on an angle, then will drop sharply to a correct reading. if the constant is too short it will fluctuate too much, which people react badly too, not unlike the temp "gauge" which is in reality a series of steps, so that the reading stays in the middle unless you are overheating or running really cold. if you have an OBC, you could re-set the mpg function repeatedly during the start-up phase (while operating the car at the same rpm/load to keep as many other variables constant of course). if you have the swinging needle mpg-o-meter under the tach you could also watch that. Ben Pavel wrote : My car seems to gulp fuel by the litre when it's cold - it doesn't ven have to be pushed hard. I can just start it in the morning and et it idle while I pick a new CD and buckle up my seat belt - and there's already a *noticeable* difference on the fuel level gauge. The weird thing is, once the temp gauge gets to the middle this apparent high consumption goes away. Also, subsequent starts during the day don't exhibit this behavior if the car is at least a little bit warm (i.e. it's not been sitting the entire day). The car is a '94 320i equipped with a M50B20TU engine, with a Siemens ECU (and not Bosch). ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:55:54 +0200 From: Pavel Tcholakov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:42:49 -0500 (GMT-05:00), Brian Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Don't all M50s have hot-wire MAFs as opposed to the vane-type AFM you > describe? > If so there's nothing to be adjusted, mechanically anyway. Yep, that's the type I've got. Apparently the signal can be adjusted without a piggyback chip - I've no idea how or where, but it was done after AFR analysis and there was a noticeable difference in performance. After all that's been said, I suspect I'm simply being paranoid. Yes, the car is heavy on fuel, but my driving style and commuting pattern probably has a lot to do with it. I just had the impression that the fuel gauge is much more acurate, but it seems it's not. On my last tank, I got 20.1 US mpg. That was approximately 75% short city trips and 25% highway driving at ~70 mph. How good or bad is this for a M50? Pavel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:04:54 -0800 From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> My wife's E39 540 6spd gets 20mpg in a 50% city, 50% heavy traffic highway commute. And she's a lead foot. I'd guess you're a bit low for mileage. Back when my E36 M3 was a daily driver I was getting about 22mpg city/highway, 28 highway only. Now I'm lucky to get 8mpg with the M3 ;-) My Chevy tow vehicle gets 15 when towing, combined weight of about 9000lbs. Marco -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Pavel Tcholakov Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 9:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [UUC] [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:42:49 -0500 (GMT-05:00), Brian Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Don't all M50s have hot-wire MAFs as opposed to the vane-type AFM you describe? > If so there's nothing to be adjusted, mechanically anyway. Yep, that's the type I've got. Apparently the signal can be adjusted without a piggyback chip - I've no idea how or where, but it was done after AFR analysis and there was a noticeable difference in performance. After all that's been said, I suspect I'm simply being paranoid. Yes, the car is heavy on fuel, but my driving style and commuting pattern probably has a lot to do with it. I just had the impression that the fuel gauge is much more acurate, but it seems it's not. On my last tank, I got 20.1 US mpg. That was approximately 75% short city trips and 25% highway driving at ~70 mph. How good or bad is this for a M50? Pavel Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:27:39 -0600 From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Pavel Tcholakov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Pavel, I have a 92 325i (non-vanos M50 engine) with 112K on the clock. It's my daily driver and has the slushbox tranny and gets about 21 to 22 around town and 28 on the highway driving between 75 and 80. One problem I had you may want to check is a fuel hose from the tank to a fitting below the back seat was leaking sporadically. It was a bugger to find this leak since it was intermittent buy my independent tech finally got it in one day when the leak was present and found it and fixed it. It's fairly easy to get to if you want to check it. Just remove the lower part of the back seat and then there's a panel you remove by taking 2 screws out. Mine was on the driver's side. If you're smelling petrol that may be where it's coming from. Oh by the way, I still call it petrol every now and then.....my excuse....was in Australia this time last year! It's hard to go back to calling it gas after being there for 6 months. Hope this helps and good luck! Phil 92 E36/M50 112K and running strong ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pavel Tcholakov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [UUC] [E36] Horrible cold-start consumption > On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:42:49 -0500 (GMT-05:00), Brian Daley > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Don't all M50s have hot-wire MAFs as opposed to the vane-type AFM you describe? > > If so there's nothing to be adjusted, mechanically anyway. > > Yep, that's the type I've got. Apparently the signal can be adjusted > without a piggyback chip - I've no idea how or where, but it was done > after AFR analysis and there was a noticeable difference in > performance. > > After all that's been said, I suspect I'm simply being paranoid. Yes, > the car is heavy on fuel, but my driving style and commuting pattern > probably has a lot to do with it. I just had the impression that the > fuel gauge is much more acurate, but it seems it's not. > > On my last tank, I got 20.1 US mpg. That was approximately 75% short > city trips and 25% highway driving at ~70 mph. How good or bad is this > for a M50? > > Pavel > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > ________________________________________________________________________ __ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:17:40 -0500 From: "KMS- Brett Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "UUC Digest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: 99 M3 for sale. Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Unfortunately (for me) a customer has decided to move out of his E36 M3 into a Chebbette Z06. The car is a red/black 99 M3 Coupe with just under 48K miles. He has spent $10K on maintenance and upgrades with me this year, and I don't do stereo installs...... Inspection II performed just past 41K miles. Redline synthetics in diff and trans, BMW synthetic in engine. The car is currently riding on stock suspension, with the exception of the TMS trailing arm bushing limiter kit. The car is available with a complete TC Kline Koni single adjustable coil over shock/spring kit that is not yet installed. It includes 350lb front, 400lb rear springs, front camber plates, rear shock mounts, adjustable rear spring lands, and the 4 Koni EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE shocks. The rear shocks are NOT the type that you have to remove to adjust. Note that this suspension package is at additional cost. It's brand new and never been installed. Also note that springs can be exchanged for different rates at any time until they have been installed. Here's what the owner says about the car (my notes in parenthesis): SSR GT3 19x8.5 all around and two extra 19x9.5's for the rear (the 9.5's will rub without spacers AND severe fender rolling unless you swear to never carry rear seat passengers..... They should be viewed as a way of recouping some money, when you sell them) UUC BBK 14in front and 12.9 rear (KMS installed, red calipers, Akebono ceramic pads) UUC Evo 3 SSK AA Gen 3 exhaust Shark injector ODB-1 Manifold with Eurosport kit (KMS installed, nice kit, no bullshit plumbing fittings) Depo headlights with angel eyes (KMS installed ZKW <euro> units) JTD Underpanel (KMS installed) TMS Trailing Arm Bushing Limiter Kit (KMS installed, with new, stock, bushings) Tint all around except windshield Heated Seats 18 button obc Aftermarket alarm (a little cheesy. Should be removed in my opinion) Sound System - Alpine 9815 head unit. Kicker kick panel and rear deck speakers. Planet Audio door tweeters and Planet Audio mid range door speakers. There are two kicker 120.2 amps for the speakers. One for each side of the car. VIN is WBSBG9334XEY80754 Mileage is about 47800 One of the (8.5") rims is bent but holds air fine. There are a couple door dings. Asking price is $26,500 without the TCK suspension. Email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you're seriously interested in this car and I'll put you in touch with the owner. Brett Anderson KMS - Koala Motorsport 440 564 7574. ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(8 messages) **********
