The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 586 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: GTO GTO Re: GTO Japanese horses/ was Re: GTO Re: GTO Re: GTO Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Re: CTS-V comments was GTO Re: CTS-V comments was GTO Re: CTS-V comments was GTO
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:10:23 -0800 (PST) From: kjk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: GTO Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:20:16 -0800 (PST) From: kjk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: GTO Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sorry for the blank post. "Yes, yes, I know the floating caliper is a good design with proven reliability & less expensive replacement parts, but I think BMW is just kind of being cheap with the brakes. Even the new TL and MB C230 have 4-piston front calipers. Furthermore, not having to remove the caliper to swap pads.....well you other track junkies can chime in here." How many drivers really go to the track? We are a tiny percentage of the buyers of any car. Those 4 piston Brembos have very expensive rotors and pads and I am sure BMW doesn't plan on doing free maintenance at $400 for front rotors. The new 330i has 13" plus rotors. Even with floating calipers, add a good set of track pads and you should be good to go. I for one didn't buy a BMW because it has a fast quarter mile time. There are many cars that are faster. I drove a G35 6 speed ('05) shortly after driving a 330i PP for a week. The BMW was simply way better for me. It may have been a bit slower than the G35 (but not much actually, they must have small horses in Japan) but chassis was WAY better and the brake feel of the BMW v. Infiniti was night and day. I immediately felt at home in the 330i. If you want fast, go buy a Corvette C4 with a huge stroker engine and 325's all around. It would likely lap much faster than most old or new BMW's. The CTS-V is a nice car and a great effort by Cadillac but it is the more subjective things that make me like BMW's. BTW, I do know something about 3800lb cars. Kevin Kelly '91 M5 (daily driver and track limo) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:05:28 -0500 From: "Robinson, Lee SEA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: GTO Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > How many drivers really go to the track? We are a tiny > percentage of the buyers of any car. Those 4 piston Brembos > have very expensive rotors and pads and I am sure BMW doesn't > plan on doing free maintenance at $400 for front rotors. The > new 330i has 13" plus rotors. Even with floating calipers, > add a good set of track pads and you should be good to go. So, the TL is a track car? No, multi-piston calipers are to improve pedal feel & initial bite. One of the reasons that a lot of folks with E30 M3s are looking towards these style brakes is that the replacement parts are LESS expensive. I'm pretty sure that Brembo rotors aren't nearly that expensive. FWIW, I'd bet BMW DOES charge at least $400 bucks for a front brake job. I see a lot of companies advertising multi-piston brakes for the E46 M3, so they must be a popular upgrade. It must be annoying for someone to pay $52 large for a car & then have to spend a few thousand more to upgrade to the kind of brakes a $35k Subaru comes with. Keep in mind, a most people with these kind of brakes in cars never use them either. Is BMW trying to portray the E46 M3 as the best sports car on the market or not? Based on the number of soccer moms I see driving them around N. Atlanta, I guess not....... > > Kevin Kelly > '91 M5 (daily driver and track limo) Lee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:37:16 -0800 From: JKerouac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: kjk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Japanese horses/ was Re: GTO Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Believe it or not, its the German (DIN) hp that's smaller than a Japanese or US horse. According to the DynoJet reader, my 235 rwhp SAE is 235.7 JIS and 239.9 DIN. Barry >G35 (but not much actually, they must have small >horses in Japan) > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:14:28 -0500 From: Ben Keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: GTO Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Lee wrote: > So, the TL is a track car? no, it's a street car meant to appeal to aging ricers who want to maintain a bit of bling with their more mature ride. > No, multi-piston calipers are to improve pedal > feel & initial bite. just like the pistion knock-back that Brembos on the STi have. great for initial feel. but that only happens on the track where they're "better" right ? > One of the reasons that a lot of folks with E30 M3s > are looking towards these style brakes is that the replacement > parts are LESS expensive. huh ? stock E30 M3 brake components aren't really that expensive at all. perhaps when you get into tracking the car heavily you might find cheaper 4-pot caliper pads, but remember, tracking is _not_ normal usage of the car. > I'm pretty sure that Brembo rotors aren't nearly that > expensive. wrong. factory (or from Brembo) the front rotors for an STi are around $350 _each_. you can buy a pair of euro floating E36 M3 rotors for that IIRC. > FWIW, I'd bet BMW DOES charge at least $400 bucks > for a front brake job. I'm sure they do. doesn't mean that they want to add another couple of hundred in the cost of front rotors just to appeal to a small segment of the market. the brand doesn't need to add brand-name brake bling to have credibility with the general public. > I see a lot of companies advertising multi-piston brakes > for the E46 M3, so they must be a popular upgrade. I hear a lot of people like to buy underbody neon and big wings too. does that mean that it's necessarily better ? didn't think so. > It must be annoying for someone to pay $52 large for a car > & then have to spend a few thousand more to upgrade to the > kind of brakes a $35k Subaru comes with. Keep in mind, a > most people with these kind of brakes in cars never use them > either. I'm sure they are annoyed & that they don't use them. most people don't need 330hp to get to work either, but they buy it. it's all about marketing & it doesn't make sense. it's not supposed to. it's a mistake trying to apply logic to a situation like this. Ben frequently illogical and knows it ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:44:38 -0600 From: Scott Staewen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Ben Keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: GTO Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> That's the initial cost plus the cost of replacement of the front rotors under the three year "free" service interval, which I think was Kevin's point initially. > I'm sure they do. doesn't mean that they want to add > another couple of hundred in the cost of front rotors just > to appeal to a small segment of the market. the brand > doesn't need to add brand-name brake bling to have credibility > with the general public. Well, you're entitled to your opinion...:) > I hear a lot of people like to buy underbody neon and > big wings too. does that mean that it's necessarily > better ? didn't think so. Exactly. Car salesmen and marketers certainly understand this, and sports car/sports sedan aficionados who understand this are usually better for it. If it were about reason, there would be about a trillion fewer sport utes on the road, and most of us would probably drive Insights or something similar. And I'd be riding a bike to work rather than driving a 400 hp car. > it's a mistake trying to apply logic to a situation like this. > > Ben > frequently illogical and knows it Scott Staewen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:32:35 -0800 From: John Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I don't recall how quick the CTS-v is, but IIRCit's faster than > the E39 M5. I'm fairly certain that the C6 vette is also like > quicker than everything on that list except probably the 993TT. John Heinricy reputedly got the CTS-v around the Nordschleife somewhere under 8:20. > Thankfully GM allows you to completely defeat all the traction control and > stabiltrak. I thought the 'track mode' was one of the more impressive features of the car, loose enough to hang the tail out but not completely 'off'. It's also got really good brakes... > On a quality note so far (after 10 days) I convinced the fit and finish are > equal to if not better than our 2001 E39 540 and definitely better than my > E36 M3 was back in '94. Nah, not that good. But good enough. > 1) shifter is a bit notchy You've done the CAGS-defeat yet? > 2) pedal placement for heel toe is less than optimal As they are on my E39 M5; gotta cut myself a gas-pedal cover from some 3/16 ABS... > 3) clutch pickup isn't as nice as a BMW (not a dual mass flywheel?) Yes, it is a dual-mass flywheel. > 4) can't enter an address into the NAV system when the car is moving (yeah I > know it's safer that way). There's got to be a defeat for that... It also sucks that the parking brake is a pedal. John. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:38:01 -0800 From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CAG defeat is on the way, and yep it is a dual mass flywheel, and you're right the parking brake is a WTF? Makes e-brake turns a bit interesting. Marco -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John Miller Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 10:33 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [UUC] Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings > I don't recall how quick the CTS-v is, but IIRCit's faster than > the E39 M5. I'm fairly certain that the C6 vette is also like > quicker than everything on that list except probably the 993TT. John Heinricy reputedly got the CTS-v around the Nordschleife somewhere under 8:20. > Thankfully GM allows you to completely defeat all the traction control and > stabiltrak. I thought the 'track mode' was one of the more impressive features of the car, loose enough to hang the tail out but not completely 'off'. It's also got really good brakes... > On a quality note so far (after 10 days) I convinced the fit and finish are > equal to if not better than our 2001 E39 540 and definitely better than my > E36 M3 was back in '94. Nah, not that good. But good enough. > 1) shifter is a bit notchy You've done the CAGS-defeat yet? > 2) pedal placement for heel toe is less than optimal As they are on my E39 M5; gotta cut myself a gas-pedal cover from some 3/16 ABS... > 3) clutch pickup isn't as nice as a BMW (not a dual mass flywheel?) Yes, it is a dual-mass flywheel. > 4) can't enter an address into the NAV system when the car is moving (yeah I > know it's safer that way). There's got to be a defeat for that... It also sucks that the parking brake is a pedal. John. Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:19:11 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Deshpande <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ben: Reminds me of the comment one of the car magazines made after their 911 vs Corvette test turned out in favour of the Corvette again, "How many 911 owners care about this? Zero." Or, something like that. Neil Deshpande 92 M5 *** Ben Keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <generic comment, not directly at Andre, just this subject> buy the car you want, for the reason you want, enjoy it the way you want & quit looking over at the guy in the next stall to make yourself feel better about yourself. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:45:38 -0500 From: "Robinson, Lee SEA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > OK, here's something to make you all feel better: > Nordschleife lap times. > > 8:12 - Porsche 993 Turbo (430 HP version) > 8:15 - BMW Z8 400 HP > 8:17 - Porsche 996 C2 > 8:18 - Ferrari F355 > 8:22 - BMW M Coupe 321 HP > 8:25 - Audi RS4 375 HP > 8:28 - Porsche 993 C2 > 8:28 - BMW M5 400 HP > 8:32 - Porsche Boxster S > 8:35 - BMW M3 Coupe 321 HP > 8:35 - BMW 130i hatchback > 8:37 - Mercedes C32 AMG > 8:38 - Honda NSX > 8:39 - Honda S2000 > 8:40 - Chevrolet Corvette > 8:42 - Audi S4 265 HP > 8:42 - Lotus Exige > 8:49 - Jaguar XKR Coupe > 8:52 - Mercedes CLK 430 Uh huh. Where's the C6? How 'bout the C5 Z06? And yes, even the standard C5 should be lapping faster than the C32, M3 & certainly the S2000. How do you know that the drivers posting these times are even remotely as capable? BTW, there's no CTS-V times there, and I know they've been driven on that track..... Lee ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:49:58 -0500 From: "Robinson, Lee SEA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > 3) The GTO/Monaro and CTS-V are bigger and heavier than an E36 M3. > > So depending on how you define 'good' they may never be as 'good' > handling as an E36 M3. They can certainly be faster, though, > and for its size the CTS-V at least (I haven't yet driven a > GTO or Monaro hard enough to tell) is very light on its feet. The current M3 is heavier by over 200lbs, and everyone seems to think it's light years better than the E36. In fully-optioned form, it's 700lbs more than an E30 M3, and I think everyone here would tell you, "you're nuts" if you said it handled better than an E46 M3. Lee ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:24:05 -0800 (PST) From: Carlos Lopez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Robinson, Lee SEA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [email protected] Subject: Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- "Robinson, Lee SEA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The current M3 is heavier by over 200lbs, and everyone seems to think > it's > light years better than the E36. In fully-optioned form, it's 700lbs > more > than an E30 M3, and I think everyone here would tell you, "you're > nuts" if you said it handled better than an E46 M3. I lost track of which car we're comparing to the E46 M3 in terms of handling, the CTS-V or the GTO? The CTS-V at the Runoffs spanked the E46 M3, actually the Neon SRT-4 spanked it as well in T2, no CTS-V was Heinricy driven although the same outfit that prepares his T1 prepared one or two of the cars that competed (Phoenix racing or something like that). Any Heinricy driven car is not a fair comparison IMO as the guy is a master at Mid-Ohio. Carlos. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:10:39 -0500 From: "Robinson, Lee SEA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: CTS-V comments was GTO Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > $20k S52 M coupe + Conforti supercharger kit + big brakes. > faster than an S54 car by a good bit, plenty of torque. This is interesting, and I'd bet you could get the M coupe for under $20. But how reliable do you REALLY think this is going to be. I've seen 2 supercharged S52 cars. One ERT & one AA, and both have been complete nightmares. This would be a good option if you could have confidence in the reliability which is difficult due to the relatively low number of production units. > > Ben Lee ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:16:27 -0500 From: Ben Keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: CTS-V comments was GTO Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I'd trust JimC an order of magnitude more than I would ERT or AA. I believe we have at least one of the owners of said blown Coupes here on this list. at least he used to be - the non-playwright Neil Simon. perhaps he'd like to chime in on how reliable it's been. Ben Lee wrote : > > $20k S52 M coupe + Conforti supercharger kit + big brakes. > > faster than an S54 car by a good bit, plenty of torque. > > This is interesting, and I'd bet you could get the M coupe for under $20. > But how reliable do you REALLY think this is going to be. I've seen 2 > supercharged S52 cars. One ERT & one AA, and both have been complete > nightmares. This would be a good option if you could have confidence in the > reliability which is difficult due to the relatively low number of > production units. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:40:50 -0800 (PST) From: Richard Dorffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: CTS-V comments was GTO Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- "Robinson, Lee SEA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > $20k S52 M coupe + Conforti supercharger kit + big brakes. > > faster than an S54 car by a good bit, plenty of torque. > > This is interesting, and I'd bet you could get the M coupe for under $20. > But how reliable do you REALLY think this is going to be. I've seen 2 > supercharged S52 cars. One ERT & one AA, and both have been complete > nightmares. This would be a good option if you could have confidence in the > reliability which is difficult due to the relatively low number of > production units. Apparently you aren't familiar with Jim Conforti's efforts, you might want to look into it. Regards, Rich ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(15 messages) **********
