The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 585 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: CTS-V comments was GTO Re: CTS-V comments was GTO Re: DSC Recalibration Road racing games Re: Pontiac GTO Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Fwd: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Re: <e36> Air Bag Light Re: CTS-V comments was GTO Re: CTS-V comments was GTO
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:10:31 -0800 (PST) From: Richard Dorffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: m3 drvr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [email protected] Subject: Re: CTS-V comments was GTO Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- m3 drvr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The CTS-v is a SICK sports sedan. For the money BMW doesn't have a answer > and if they build the CTS-V Plus (do a google search on "CTS-v plus") then > there won't be much hope for any of the Germans competing in RWD sport sedan > market. This CTS-v Plus may have the 500 hp & 500 ft/lbs L7 Corvette > engine. > > Does someone know of a used German ride that will offer GTO/CTSv performance > for under $35k. Where can you get a CTS-V (MSRP of $50k) or a CTS-V Plus (estimated at over $65k if it happens) for under $35k? I doubt the GTO is outhandling any modern BMWs. Later, Rich ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:22:16 -0500 From: "Robinson, Lee SEA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: m3 drvr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [email protected] Subject: Re: CTS-V comments was GTO Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The CTS-v is a SICK sports sedan. For the money BMW doesn't > have a answer and if they build the CTS-V Plus (do a google > search on "CTS-v plus") then there won't be much hope for any > of the Germans competing in RWD sport sedan market. This > CTS-v Plus may have the 500 hp & 500 ft/lbs L7 Corvette engine. Had to guess that was coming. The CTS-V is supposed to be a pretty complete car. Right now, it's a pretty direct competitor for the S4 & E46 M3, but chucking in 100 extra hp & 100 extra lb-ft will leave the Germans sucking on exhaust fumes. The CTS-V does a good job of having standout design without the slab-sidedness of the new 5 too. Can the Germans ever get away from floating calipers for sports cars???? I was reading on an E30 M3 board about how far the brakes in new cars have come since 88, but the 05 M3s are using exactly the same design, just bigger & with better ABS. Meanwhile you can get a $30k Subaru or Mitsubishi with Brembo multi-piston calipers front AND REAR. Yes, yes, I know the floating caliper is a good design with proven reliability & less expensive replacement parts, but I think BMW is just kind of being cheap with the brakes. Even the new TL and MB C230 have 4-piston front calipers. Furthermore, not having to remove the caliper to swap pads.....well you other track junkies can chime in here. > > Does someone know of a used German ride that will offer > GTO/CTSv performance for under $35k. $35, huh? If you can stand a 2-seater, you can get what I'd love to have: an S54 M coupe. Of course, the 2 you mentioned are full four-seaters. I don't know what the used S4 market is like. Maybe a C43 or C55? I doubt you'd get an E46 M3 for that. Maybe a heavily modded E36 M3. Willing to buy Japanese, I can make some suggestions. FWIW, the CTS-V is a $50k car. The only direct comparison I've read was in Consumer Reports. They directly compared the CTS-V, S4, M3 & GTO. They said the GTO was definitely behind the others, but it is $15k less. Basically CR says if you want to go fast & have fun, pick the M3 or STi. > > Does anyone have any quality data on these cars? I can't imagine it could be too much different from BMW. I think after Lexus, Toyota, Honda & Acura pretty much everyone else is a long way behind. I believe Buick got the 5th spot. Buick! > > Don't get me wrong, I love my 98 M3 sedan but I don't see > what is next from BMW that is cost-worthy performance > compared to the American iron. Yes, very nice car. Cost-worthy, huh? Do you need some urls for BMW aftermarket houses? Your best bet if you want to play with American Iron driving boys is start with some forced induction. > > Clyde Lee 88 M3->but also wants an S54 M coupe, Subie STi, Lotus Elise, and, hmmm, should probably get something to haul folks around in, like an E39 M5 or something.......Oh wait, I have to buy a lottery ticket to win it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:15:14 -0800 From: Roger Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: DSC Recalibration Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> OK, now that makes sense. As Gary mentioned, I don't know how sensitive the steering angle sensor is, as I did an alignment to my 330 w/o checking this (but the wheel was straight before & after) and it was fine. Looks like the stealer is trying to pay for that big new showroom on Pacific Coast Highway here in SoCal... makes sense though, as they've also got Mini's topping $40k with tons of overpriced "upgrades". -- Roger "KMS- Brett Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >All DSC equipped vehicles have a steering angle sensor that must be >electronically "zeroed" after a wheel alignment. > >It takes about 15 minutes to hook up the diagnostic computer and run the >calibration. Wheel alignment, $100. Calibration, $250 ?? ;-) > >Brett Anderson >KMS > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:38:09 -0800 From: "scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Road racing games Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I actually worked on Forza for a while in Test. Yes, I test Xbox racing games. It should be a kick ass game when it ships...The only BMWs are the M3 GTRs and the Dell ALMS car. Apparently BMW had an issue with the paint shop in the game (custom paint schemes, decals, this feature is AWESOME), and they didnt want the player to be able to make some freaky pink and green M3, so all road BMW got cut. It was a shame, and I fought really hard for them, but that's the way things go in the Licensing world. - Scott Catlin - 1990 325is ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:51:23 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "m3 drvr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Pontiac GTO Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Brett was joking. The GTO is on the soft side compared to its Australian forebears. No car in the world has the ride and handling combination of a BMW. Put the Chevy engine in the E36 and get everything. Gary Derian ----- Original Message ----- From: "m3 drvr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [UUC] Pontiac GTO > > Brett, > > Are you saying that the Caddy parts on the GTO are low quality? Are these > parts similar to ones on the CTS-v? If you get these suspension parts > will the handling be as good as a E36 M3? > > Clyde > >>From: "KMS- Brett Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Reply-To: [email protected] >>To: "UUC Digest" <[email protected]> >>Subject: Re: [UUC] Pontiac GTO >>Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:47:03 -0500 >> >>Cheap suspension upgrade is available for the GTO. >> >>Get on the web and buy the STOCK suspension from a Monaro, that it's owner >>has removed for upgrade purposes. >> >>The stock Holden suspension is a huge upgrade on the 59 Cadillac parts >>that >>Pontiac insisted on. >> >>Brett Anderson >>KMS >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Steve Stoner >> > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:42 PM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [UUC] Pontiac GTO >> > >> > >> > >> > Ok, have to weigh in here. I have not driven a GTO. But, I've looked >> > a >> > couple over. Exterior styling is bland, but sometimes bland equals >> > stealth who knows? The interior looked very well executed and was >> > quite >> > attractive. 350-400 horsepower is nice. So if it needs some after >> > market suspension work and so on, what's so different than what we all >> > do to our e30/e36/e34 rides? >> > Steve Stoner >> > 10 or more BMWs over the years, very few stock suspensions. >> >> >> >>Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> >> >>__________________________________________________________________________ >>In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. >> >>UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate >>Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! >>908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > > > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:09:35 -0800 From: John Bolhuis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Man, all this talk about how good the GTO & CTS-v are is a little ominous for a list that should be all gung-ho about BMW. If something big falls out of my e39, I would be awfully tempted to get a used GTO, peel off the badges, and hammer the pontiac grille into the BMW shape. I still ain't getting rid of my e30 ragtop though. :) -- "It is an honor to be Cookie Monster." -Sesame Street spokeswoman Audrey Shapiro ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:43:28 -0800 (PST) From: Andre Yew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, John Bolhuis wrote: > Man, all this talk about how good the GTO & CTS-v are is a little > ominous for a list that should be all gung-ho about BMW. If something > big falls out of my e39, I would be awfully tempted to get a used GTO, > peel off the badges, and hammer the pontiac grille into the BMW shape. OK, here's something to make you all feel better: Nordschleife lap times. 8:12 - Porsche 993 Turbo (430 HP version) 8:15 - BMW Z8 400 HP 8:17 - Porsche 996 C2 8:18 - Ferrari F355 8:22 - BMW M Coupe 321 HP 8:25 - Audi RS4 375 HP 8:28 - Porsche 993 C2 8:28 - BMW M5 400 HP 8:32 - Porsche Boxster S 8:35 - BMW M3 Coupe 321 HP 8:35 - BMW 130i hatchback 8:37 - Mercedes C32 AMG 8:38 - Honda NSX 8:39 - Honda S2000 8:40 - Chevrolet Corvette 8:42 - Audi S4 265 HP 8:42 - Lotus Exige 8:49 - Jaguar XKR Coupe 8:52 - Mercedes CLK 430 Note where the new 130i fits in --- the new I6 makes 250+ HP, with the 130 slightly lighter than an E46 330i. There are some problems with the list, like having different drivers driving different cars probably on very different days, on a time spread of about 7 percent between fastest and slowest cars (anyone remember the old Formula 1 qualification rules?). BTW, the 321-HP M3 Coupe is the Euro E36, right? --Andre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:21:31 -0500 From: Ben Keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> the list below is not complete. there's no 996TT listed, no 996GT3, no F360, no F430, no big AMG cars, etc, etc, etc. I don't recall how quick the CTS-v is, but IIRCit's faster than the E39 M5. I'm fairly certain that the C6 vette is also like quicker than everything on that list except probably the 993TT. <generic comment, not directly at Andre, just this subject> buy the car you want, for the reason you want, enjoy it the way you want & quit looking over at the guy in the next stall to make yourself feel better about yourself. Ben Andre wrote: > OK, here's something to make you all feel better: Nordschleife lap times. > > 8:12 - Porsche 993 Turbo (430 HP version) > 8:15 - BMW Z8 400 HP > 8:17 - Porsche 996 C2 > 8:18 - Ferrari F355 > 8:22 - BMW M Coupe 321 HP > 8:25 - Audi RS4 375 HP > 8:28 - Porsche 993 C2 > 8:28 - BMW M5 400 HP > 8:32 - Porsche Boxster S > 8:35 - BMW M3 Coupe 321 HP > 8:35 - BMW 130i hatchback > 8:37 - Mercedes C32 AMG > 8:38 - Honda NSX > 8:39 - Honda S2000 > 8:40 - Chevrolet Corvette > 8:42 - Audi S4 265 HP > 8:42 - Lotus Exige > 8:49 - Jaguar XKR Coupe > 8:52 - Mercedes CLK 430 > > Note where the new 130i fits in --- the new I6 makes 250+ HP, with the 130 > slightly lighter than an E46 330i. There are some problems with the list, > like having different drivers driving different cars probably on very > different days, on a time spread of about 7 percent between fastest and > slowest cars (anyone remember the old Formula 1 qualification rules?). > BTW, the 321-HP M3 Coupe is the Euro E36, right? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:53:13 -0800 From: Raza Uddin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Andre wrote: > > OK, here's something to make you all feel better: Nordschleife lap times. > > > > 8:12 - Porsche 993 Turbo (430 HP version) > > 8:15 - BMW Z8 400 HP > > 8:17 - Porsche 996 C2 > > 8:18 - Ferrari F355 > > 8:22 - BMW M Coupe 321 HP > > 8:25 - Audi RS4 375 HP > > 8:28 - Porsche 993 C2 > > 8:28 - BMW M5 400 HP > > 8:32 - Porsche Boxster S > > 8:35 - BMW M3 Coupe 321 HP > > 8:35 - BMW 130i hatchback > > 8:37 - Mercedes C32 AMG > > 8:38 - Honda NSX > > 8:39 - Honda S2000 > > 8:40 - Chevrolet Corvette > > 8:42 - Audi S4 265 HP > > 8:42 - Lotus Exige > > 8:49 - Jaguar XKR Coupe > > 8:52 - Mercedes CLK 430 > > > > Note where the new 130i fits in --- the new I6 makes 250+ HP, with the 130 > > slightly lighter than an E46 330i. There are some problems with the list, > > like having different drivers driving different cars probably on very > > different days, on a time spread of about 7 percent between fastest and > > slowest cars (anyone remember the old Formula 1 qualification rules?). > > BTW, the 321-HP M3 Coupe is the Euro E36, right? I don't having really experience to add to the discussion, but from hearing from some new GTO owners, they have really been impressed by their cars. For the price, they are great bang for the buck (used at least). However, the CTS-V is on a different plane: it most closely compares to an M5. However, I think it would be very unwise to base anything off that list of laptimes. This spread is especially hard to believe: > > 8:38 - Honda NSX > > 8:39 - Honda S2000 > > 8:40 - Chevrolet Corvette Unless the NSX and Corvette were driven by monkeys, I doubt the S2000 would be anywhere close to those cars, especially on a track like the Ring. Drive Safely, Raza ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:12:20 -0500 From: rmplum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Fwd: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> oops, this time to the digest..... ............................................ I've driven a GTO (The original 350HP, 1st year version). By FAR the best part of the car is the engine. It handles well enough, but had absolutely no answer for the STi that I was trying to follow on the twisty-ish way back to our place. The engine absolute put a smile on my face though. For my sporty car tastes the steering was far too vague on-center, and the whole car just feels heavy (I feel this same way about the E46 M3 FWIW). I didn't have any issues with the brakes, but I didn't drive it on the track either. The shifter is prehistoric feeling compared to anything BMW, Nissan, Infinity, Subaru, Mitsu has to offer. It's a sporty, GT type car to me. Probably the best seats I've ever experienced in a GM car though. RP On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 > > Does anyone on the list own a GTO? Has anyone on the list > > test driven one of these cars? > > > > I don't think it will out corner E36 M3 (which is what I own) > > but the '05s will definitely show us its tailpipes on a regular basis. > > > > Clyde > > 98 M3/4 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:29:15 -0800 From: John Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Are you saying that the Caddy parts on the GTO are low quality? Are these > parts similar to ones on the CTS-v? If you get these suspension parts will > the handling be as good as a E36 M3? Let's clarify a couple points: 1) The GTO and the CTS/CTS-V share nothing besides some powertrain bits. The GTO is a Holden Monaro which is a two-door version of the Holden Commodore, which is an updated and slightly stretched fifteen-year old Opel Omega floorpan and suspension, with sheetmetal from a ten-year-old Opel Omega (the same car that was sold in the US as the Cadillac Catera) plus rack-and-pinion steering (which no Omega had) and a US GM powertrain. The CTS/CTS-V (Sigma chassis) is a clean-sheet-of-paper design. The Monaro/Commodore/GTO is not a CTS. It is not an Opel (Omega.) It's unique to the Australian market. The GM Holden product line: http://www.holden.com.au What the Commodore floorpan came from: http://www.saunalahti.fi/~nirtsu/ What the current Commodore rear suspension came from: http://www.lotus-carlton.co.uk/ 2) The GTO can have whatever bits on it that you want to put there. The reason the GTO doesn't get bigger brakes, etc. from the factory is simple: price. The GTO stickers at $36K or so (and given the direction the US-vs-Aussie dollar is going, GM's undoubtedly getting pinched hard on that.) The CTS-V stickers at $52K. Down in Oz there's a sizeable list of options available on Monaros, and then there's the HSV parts bin that will allow you to put pretty much whatever you want on the car: http://www.hsv.com.au Nothing off the CTS-V will fit a Monaro/GTO. 3) The GTO/Monaro and CTS-V are bigger and heavier than an E36 M3. So depending on how you define 'good' they may never be as 'good' handling as an E36 M3. They can certainly be faster, though, and for its size the CTS-V at least (I haven't yet driven a GTO or Monaro hard enough to tell) is very light on its feet. The GTO and CTS-V are 5-series-size, not 3-series-competitors. Bigger, bulkier, roomier. John. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:52:11 -0800 From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I am having a blast with the CTS-V. First car I've had with that much torque, throttle steering can be quite the spectacle. Thankfully GM allows you to completely defeat all the traction control and stabiltrak. On a quality note so far (after 10 days) I convinced the fit and finish are equal to if not better than our 2001 E39 540 and definitely better than my E36 M3 was back in '94. So far my only criticism is 1) shifter is a bit notchy 2) pedal placement for heel toe is less than optimal 3) clutch pickup isn't as nice as a BMW (not a dual mass flywheel?) 4) can't enter an address into the NAV system when the car is moving (yeah I know it's safer that way). 5) I'm going to go broke putting tires on it, turning rubber to smoke is just too damn easy. 6) it should sit about 1" lower Marco -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John Miller Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [UUC] Pontiac GTO and BMW suspension musings So depending on how you define 'good' they may never be as 'good' handling as an E36 M3. They can certainly be faster, though, and for its size the CTS-V at least (I haven't yet driven a GTO or Monaro hard enough to tell) is very light on its feet. The GTO and CTS-V are 5-series-size, not 3-series-competitors. Bigger, bulkier, roomier. John. Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:35:50 -0500 From: "Bailey Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <e36> Air Bag Light Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kevin asked: >What would cause the light to come on, stay on for about two minutes and then extinguish after that time? On my one month old 1995 E36/5 the "two minute warning" was triggered by a sensor fault in the seat belt latch. The dealer cleared the SRS fault memory and the problem has not returned in over nine years and 95K miles. I also believe that the occupant sensor in the bottom seat cushion can generate the same warning. YMMV. Bailey Taylor 1995 318ti Club Sport 1997 528iA 1999 Wrangler Sahara Light Campaign Assault Vehicle Scooter still to be decided ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:09:46 -0500 From: Ben Keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: CTS-V comments was GTO Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Clyde wrote: > Does someone know of a used German ride that will offer > GTO/CTSv performance for under $35k. $5k E34 + $10k of heavily built turbo M30. 500hp is probably doable if you go with aftermarket ECU & the right selection of parts + $5k in suspension, brakes & other widgets. $5k E34 + $10k of US V8 + the same $5k in suspension & other stuff. also easily 500hp. $20k S52 M coupe + Conforti supercharger kit + big brakes. faster than an S54 car by a good bit, plenty of torque. etc. none of these are going to be the obvious choice, but they're not completely nuts either in terms of reliability if you get someone who knows that they're doing to put them together. > Does anyone have any quality data on these cars? I'm sure there are message boards for them somewhere. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:31:03 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ben Keyes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[email protected]> Subject: Re: CTS-V comments was GTO Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> How about a $1K E34, $5K engine/trans, then $5K for suspension, brakes, wheels and tires. Plus a chip editor and perhaps a pair of turbos. Or for a smaller car, E36 + Chevy. 450 hp and 3200 lb. Less than $20K. Trouble is you gotta build them yourself, or find someone to build it for you. An of course the purity is gone, and mongrel cars are not legal in all states. Gary [still at stage 0] Derian > Clyde wrote: >> Does someone know of a used German ride that will offer >> GTO/CTSv performance for under $35k. > > $5k E34 + $10k of heavily built turbo M30. 500hp is > probably doable if you go with aftermarket ECU & the > right selection of parts + $5k in suspension, brakes & > other widgets. > > $5k E34 + $10k of US V8 + the same $5k in suspension > & other stuff. also easily 500hp. > > $20k S52 M coupe + Conforti supercharger kit + big brakes. > faster than an S54 car by a good bit, plenty of torque. > > etc. none of these are going to be the obvious choice, but > they're not completely nuts either in terms of reliability if > you get someone who knows that they're doing to put them > together. > >> Does anyone have any quality data on these cars? > > I'm sure there are message boards for them somewhere. > > > > Ben > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(15 messages) **********
