Grain of Salt: I think were both taking kind of extreme positions here so
don't take this as a flaming, just healthy debate.


> <cf_Soapbox>
> So all of our web pages should be viewable any obscure functionality
> challenged browser available on the market?

No, but they should work in standards compliant browsers as a minimum (they
should probably also work in IE).

> To do that would force us to
> design aesthetically poor pages and reduce our design options to only a
> small core html subset.

Aesthetically poor? Reduced design options?
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/035/035.css&page=0
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/036/036.css&page=0
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=017%2F017%2Ecss
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=032%2F032%2Ecss
and more....

> We couldn't use flash or Java, We couldn't embed
> sounds/movies/image maps/etc.

Yes you can have multimedia content, but you should provide alternative
content so other people can see it.

Of course this depends on audience. If you are showcasing your 3D animation
skills you are aiming for a pretty specific audience of high end users. The
sites that kicked off this debate (Westpac & A credit Union) were providing
a service to a broad audience. Its in Westpac's best interest to make this
accessible! This is a really cheap & easy way to differentiate themselves
and win customers.

> IMO there has to be some room for pages that are cutting edge. If that
> cutting edge forces people away because they can't or won't download the
> specified browser or plug-in then so be it.

Of course, but I don't think banking pages fit into this category. Or maybe
it does.... what do you picture when you think of a cutting edge banking
application?

The picture in my head does not have a flash intro, but rather has a super
simple & fast HTML/CSS interface with excellent use of form related tags
like legend & fieldset. I should be able to navigate it with just a
keyboard, or from a wireless device, or with images & javascript turned off.
Every page should print properly.

> If we as a developer community vowed en masse to never use an unsupported
> feature in our pages we'd probably all be out of work very quickly.

You're kidding yourself there mate. Take the government sector, everything
*must* be accessible by law. The USA take it a step further - anyone who
provides a service to a government agency *must* also be accessible
(www.section508.gov).

A significant potion of the work we are doing at the moment comes from
client who are *insisting* on accessibility. Some others want whizzing and
banging and animation. Its really comes down to the client and target
audience. Even if clients don't specifically ask for AAA compliance we do
everything possible (given the budget) to get them in that direction - the
reason for this we feel it makes for a better user experience and a better
end product.

> One of the reasons the internet is what it is, is because companies (Like
> *Gasp* M$) and people are always trying new things out. I really believe
> that there needs to be a happy medium here. Service pages like
> the one that
> Westpac provides should allow multiple browsers (Or have multiple
> versions)
> but there should be no reason why companies and people shouldn't
> be allowed
> to stretch the envelope. In stretching the envelope it is often
> going to be
> impossible to add backward compatibility.
> </cf_Soapbox>

I agree to an point, but the Internet is also a set of tools - you don't
deliberately make tools difficult for people to use. Accessibility is built
into everything around you; your house, your car, your supermarket, your TV.
I could go off and make a TV that has a really cool remote where none of the
buttons were marked, but I probably wouldn't sell many. I could build a car
that runs on vegetable oil (probably be a great idea) but again it wouldn't
sell - refuelling would be too much of a hassle.

Pushing the envelope is great, but you have to keep in mind that people
actually try to use this stuff.

I'm not trying to stop people from doing anything they want - just trying to
point out a couple of things:

accessible != boring & ugly
accessible != difficult & expensive

accessible == all round better user experience
accessible == longer shelf life


> Well now I've managed to offend y'all, who's gonna win the footy this
> weekend :)

Who's playing?


Cheers

Mark


______________
Mark Stanton
Web Production
Gruden Pty Ltd
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201
Fax: 9956 8433
http://www.gruden.com


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