CTM = Computational theory of mind
PM = Primary matter
UD = Universal Dovetailer
UDA = Universal Dovetailer Argument
AUDA = Arithmetical Dovetailer Argument

Quentin

2009/9/23 m.a. <marty...@bellsouth.net>

>  *Would anyone care to provide a gloss to all the capital letter codes
> being used in this thread?  (e.g.  CTM, PM, UD etc.)*
> **
> **
> **
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Nyman" <david.ny...@gmail.com>
> To: <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 8:12 AM
> Subject: Re: Yablo, Quine and Carnap on ontology
>
>
> 2009/9/22 Flammarion <peterdjo...@yahoo.com>:
>
> >> One might indeed adduce this distinction in preferring one approach
> >> over the other, but it isn't forced.  Indeed, in the case of the MGA,
> >> if one accepts the deduction and retains one's commitment to CTM, then
> >> the abduction is only to be expected.
> >
> > I don;t follow that. The MGA is an attempted reductio -- ie it does
> > not
> > need premises of its own but negates the premises of its
> > counterargumetns.
> > Not
> > that I accept it
>
> AFAICS mathematical primacy isn't necessitated by the MGA deductively.
>  It's an additional assumption motivated by the desire to retain CTM,
> rather than PM, once the mutually exclusive conclusion of the MGA is
> accepted.  In this case, to the extent that such a move is justified,
> its consequences would of course be expected to match observation.
>
> >> Bruno argues that an experiential-computational type can't be
> >> plausibly associated with one of its valid physical tokens in at least
> >> one case.
> >
> > He goes on to conclude that I am being generated by an immaterial
> > UD. That is not possible if there are no immaterial entities.
>
> "That is not possible" unless one adopts the theoretical assumption of
> the primacy of mathematics and the consequent derivation both of
> persons and the appearance of matter on this basis.  The entities so
> posited are of course trivially "immaterial".  You might as well say
> that arguing from the opposite position requires that entities be
> "unmathematical".  I thought you had denied that you were seeking some
> ultimate metaphysically primitive justification, rather than defining
> a particular set of constraints on the theoretical entities to be
> deployed in a particular research programme.
>
> >> >> In either case there may be what one considers defensible grounds for
> >> >> a commitment to a particular direction of inference, but ISTM that
> >> >> further insistence on the metaphysical 'primitiveness' of one's point
> >> >> of departure is entirely tangential to the distinctiveness of either
> >> >> explanatory scheme.
> >>
> >> > Who's been doing that?
> >>
> >> This seems an odd question at this stage.  I thought you were
> >> insisting that Bruno needs some metaphysically primitive sense of
> >> Platonism to justify the UDA
> >
> > He needs to make it clear he is assuming it. He
> > may justify the assumption apriori or he may justify it abductively.
>
> Peter, this is becoming utterly confusing.  Either you're demanding
> that Bruno commit to a notion of metaphysical 'primitiveness' that we
> seemed to have agreed is gratuitous, or you aren't.  On the evidence
> of the various comments above you appear to do either as it suits you.
>  He has made it clear that his theoretical and empirical programme is
> based on the explanatory primacy of that explicit subset of
> mathematics he terms Arithmetical Realism.
>
> AFAICS this is an a priori assumption adopted as an alternative to
> abandoning CTM.  It is motivated by the desire to pursue a
> computational programme of research into the mind-body issue in the
> face of the deductive conclusions of the MGA with respect to CTM+PM.
> In the view I've argued at some length here, the lack of substantive
> physical commitment implicit in CTM forces these alternatives without
> the need to rely on specific reductio arguments (Bruno has sometimes
> said as much).
>
> In the case of PM, the 'primitive' aspect means only that fundamental
> physical theory is taken to be the source of all other inference.  The
> alternative assumption of AR has the equivalent entailment for
> mathematics.  Either approach would of course subsequently be expected
> to be justified abductively or fail as an empirical programme.
>
> >> Well then, surely we can agree.  One finds grounds for preferring a
> >> theoretical point of departure, and then one gets down to work.  Comp
> >> is open to empirical refutation, so it's research.  Is your problem
> >> that MGA is a "declaration of irrefutable certainty"?
> >
> > No. But is has assumptions of its own.
> >
> >>If so, it
> >> shouldn't be.  Like any deductive argument, it is open to refutation
> >> if one can find an error.  Further, even if one can't, this doesn't
> >> force a commitment to Arithmetical Realism, it simply puts the
> >> coherency of CTM+PM into doubt.
> >
> > Which could lead to PM-CTM as in Maudlin's argument.
> > Maudlin of course is *not* assuming Platonism.
>
> Yes of course, that is not controversial in this discussion.  Frankly,
> most people faced with the alternative of abandoning CTM or PM would
> probably choose the former option.  However, Bruno has a point when he
> observes that this could be mere Aristotelian prejudice.  The waste
> bin of thought is stuffed with intuitively obvious ideas that turned
> out to be the opposite of the truth.  I make no claim to knowing which
> of these alternatives, if either, is correct.  We are discussing only
> which conjunctions of claims may be consistent, and which theoretical
> commitments make any difference worth bothering about.
>
> David
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On 22 Sep, 14:37, David Nyman <david.ny...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> 2009/9/22 Flammarion <peterdjo...@yahoo.com>:
> >>
> >> >> But surely what is 'literally' the case depends critically on one's
> >> >> starting assumptions. If one starts with a theoretical commitment to
> >> >> the primacy of the physical, then the status of mathematics is
> >> >> obviously rendered formal or metaphorical with respect to this. OTOH
> >> >> if one starts from the theoretical primacy of number - irrespective
> of
> >> >> whether one labels such primacy 'arithmetical' or 'platonic' - the
> >> >> opposite is the case,
> >>
> >> > That is pretty much what I have been saying. But note that
> >> > there is a difference between assuming something because you
> >> > think it is incontrovertible (deduction) and assuming it because
> >> > its consequences match observation (abduction)
> >>
> >> One might indeed adduce this distinction in preferring one approach
> >> over the other, but it isn't forced. Indeed, in the case of the MGA,
> >> if one accepts the deduction and retains one's commitment to CTM, then
> >> the abduction is only to be expected.
> >
> > I don;t follow that. The MGA is an attempted reductio -- ie it does
> > not
> > need premises of its own but negates the premises of its
> > counterargumetns.
> > Not
> > that I accept it
> >
> >> But if you agree with my
> >> formulation, I'm confused by what you go on to say below:
> >>
> >> >> and indeed Bruno argues precisely how and why,
> >> >> on the basis of the MGA, one cannot take the status of matter (as
> >> >> opposed to its appearances) 'literally' from the perspective of
> >> >> computational theory.
> >>
> >> > No he doesn't. His arguments have to assume Platonism as
> >> > well as CTM.
> >>
> >> Bruno argues that an experiential-computational type can't be
> >> plausibly associated with one of its valid physical tokens in at least
> >> one case.
> >
> > He goes on to conclude that I am being generated by an immaterial
> > UD. That is not possible if there are no immaterial entities.
> >
> >>If you can show where he goes wrong, you may consider
> >> CTM+PM has been defended. OTOH if one agrees with him, this obscures
> >> the association of consciousness with physics 'qua computatio'. In
> >> this case, one could choose to abandon either CTM or PM. If the
> >> latter, the move from MGA to UDA requires the reversal of the
> >> theoretical primacy of matter and (at least a branch of) mathematics.
> >
> > There is no UDA without a Platonic UD.
> >
> >> When you respond "That is pretty much what I have been saying" you are
> >> agreeing, aren't you, that what you mean by Platonism - whether or not
> >> you accept the MGA as motivating its entailment by CTM - is just a
> >> theoretical commitment to the primacy of the mathematical, as opposed
> >> to the material?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> >>And this seems pretty much indistinguishable from
> >> Arithmetical Realism to me.
> >
> > I think Bruno's use fo AR is ambiguous. Sometimes he uses
> > it to mean Platonism. sometimes he uses it to mean bivalence.
> >
> >> >> In either case there may be what one considers defensible grounds for
> >> >> a commitment to a particular direction of inference, but ISTM that
> >> >> further insistence on the metaphysical 'primitiveness' of one's point
> >> >> of departure is entirely tangential to the distinctiveness of either
> >> >> explanatory scheme.
> >>
> >> > Who's been doing that?
> >>
> >> This seems an odd question at this stage. I thought you were
> >> insisting that Bruno needs some metaphysically primitive sense of
> >> Platonism to justify the UDA
> >
> > He needs to make it clear he is assuming it. He
> > may justify the assumption apriori or he may justify it abductively.
> >
> >
> >> >> The opinions cited in the first posting assume
> >> >> the first of these theoretical commitments and hence choose to take
> >> >> the primacy of matter as their inferential fons et origo. Comp takes
> >> >> the opposite position. The rest is a research programme, isn't it?
> >>
> >> > Yes. For my money, metaphysics is a subject-matter.
> >> > It is not an epistemological modus-operandi involving declarations of
> >> > irrefutable certainty.
> >>
> >> Well then, surely we can agree. One finds grounds for preferring a
> >> theoretical point of departure, and then one gets down to work. Comp
> >> is open to empirical refutation, so it's research. Is your problem
> >> that MGA is a "declaration of irrefutable certainty"?
> >
> > No. But is has assumptions of its own.
> >
> >>If so, it
> >> shouldn't be. Like any deductive argument, it is open to refutation
> >> if one can find an error. Further, even if one can't, this doesn't
> >> force a commitment to Arithmetical Realism, it simply puts the
> >> coherency of CTM+PM into doubt.
> >
> > Which could lead to PM-CTM as in Maudlin's argument.
> > Maudlin of course is *not* assuming Platonism.
> >
> >>Either conclusion might motivate a
> >> preference for one research approach over another.
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> > >
> >
> >
>


-- 
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---

Reply via email to