On 07 Aug 2011, at 20:02, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:

On 07.08.2011 19:23 Bruno Marchal said the following:

On 07 Aug 2011, at 17:25, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:


The question here what it could mean, "limited consciousness" in
the case of a spider.

Why limited consciousness? For me the big departure is between RA
consciousness and PA consciousness. PA is RA (addition and
multiplication, mainly) + the induction axioms (it become very
*clever*). When I say that I think that jumping spiders are Löbian, I
mean that I think they are as much conscious than us. But they have
a lower memory, lower motivation, they are severely constrained by a
very little brain, which makes them far less "intelligent" (in the
sense of Stathis), but I think they are as conscious as us: they
distinguishes themselves from other creature to which they have a
cognitive empathy. For a long time I thought only the mammals can do
that, then I have enlarged this to the homeotherm animals (which
regulate the temperature of the body and happens to dream), and then
I have enlarged this recently to the octopus and the spiders. In a
sense, our own consciousness might be more limited, because it is
full of sophisticated, futile and less futile, human complexity. The
brain seems to be more a filter of (platonic) consciousness than a
consciousness producer, and bigger brain might filter more than less.
technically this points is still hard to settle out.

My question was more about what kind of consciousness experiences a spider has. Let us start with a vision. Does a spider experience a 3D world like we? (well even without colors, say greyscale but still a 3D world) Then does a spider has emotions, pain, etc.?

Jumping spiders have a larger spectrum of color than us, according to some scientists. Thay have a pretty good binocular vision system, but with a narrower view angle. But, well like most spiders, they have 8 eight eyes. the six supplementary eyaes seems good at detecting moves all around them, so I figure out they might have a pretty good sense of 3D. They certainly have emotions, which is the most basic mental experience in most living form, and pain, and thirst and appetite, and sexual desire, satisfaction and fears. No doubt that they have a rather different perception than human, and different qualia, but basically, I would say that it is like us, minus some troubles (like how will I pay the taxes), but with the corresponding one, like its has been for some time I didn't see any edible pray (not with words, of course).

Yes. I would bet they are pretty self-conscious like us. They don't have language, and they probably have no way to learn from the discovery made by others. They progress in technics is still Darwinian, but in their individual life, they learn (unlike insects).

I think and speculate, from what I read and see (not as an expert in arthropods, for sure). I will certainly dig on this and let you know if that theory will weight up or down.



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