I think that there are many tries to separate moral from ethics:
indiividual versus social, innate versus cultural, emotional versus
rational etc.  The whole point is to obviate the m*** world as much as we
can, under the impression that moral is subjective and not objetive, or
more precisely that there is no moral that can be objective.  An there is
such crap as the separation of facts and values (as if values (and in
particular universal values) where not social facts).

Well, this is a more effect of positivism which is deeply flawed in
theoretical and practical terms. It is a consequence also of  modern
gnosticism,  called progressivism of which positivism is one of the phases,
that believes possible in a certain future a society with a
perfect harmony of individual desires and social needs, making moral
unnecessary. They also believe that the current social reality is a
demiurgic creation of repressive social forces that hinder an era
of Wisdom and Peace....

But this is impossible. Not only it is against judeochristian traditions,
but against the theorical basis of the progressive ideology: the theory of
evolution (natural selection). Men are social individuals and therefore
moral is deep in his hardwired (instintive) nature, as multilevel selection
theory can demonstrate.

So let´s call moral what is: moral.

2012/8/30 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>

>
> On 29 Aug 2012, at 22:30, meekerdb wrote:
>
>  From experience I know people tend not to adopt it, but let me recommend
> a distinction.  Moral is what I expect of myself.  Ethics is what I do and
> what I hope other people will do in their interactions with other people.
> They of course tend to overlap since I will be ashamed of myself if I cheat
> someone, so it's both immoral and unethical.  But they are not the same.
> If I spent my time smoking pot and not working I'd be disappointed in
> myself, but it wouldn't be unethical.
>
>
> I'm not sure I understand. "not working" wouldn't be immoral either.
> Disappointing, yes, but immoral?
>
> BTW:
> I would not relate pot with not working. Some people don't work and smoke
> pot, and then blame pot for their non working, but some people smokes pot
> and work very well. The only researcher I knew smoking pot from early
> morning to evening, everyday, since hies early childhood, was the one who
> published the most, and get the most prestigious post in the US.
>
> As a math teacher, since I told students that blaming pot will not been
> allowed for justifying exam problems, some students realize that they were
> using pot to lie to themselves on their motivation for study. It is so easy.
>
> Likewise, if we were allowed to drive while being drunk, after a while the
> number of car accidents due to alcohol would probably diminish a lot,
> because the real culprit is not this product or that behavior, but
> irresponsibility, which is encouraged by treating adults like children. I
> think.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
> On 8/29/2012 8:54 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>
> Not only to lie. In order  to commerce and in general to interact, we need
> to know what to expect from whom. and the other need to know what the
> others expect form me. So I have to reflect on myself in order to act in
> the enviromnent of the moral and material expectations that others have
> about me. This is the origin of reflective individuality, that is moral
> from the beginning..
>
> 2012/8/29 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>
>
>>  But Craig makes a point when he says computers only deal in words.
>> That's why something having human like intelligence and consciousness must
>> be a robot, something that can act wordlessly in it's environment.
>> Evolutionarily speaking, conscious narrative is an add-on on top of
>> subconscious thought which is responsible for almost everything we do.
>> Julian Jaynes theorized that humans did not become conscious in the modern
>> sense until they engaged in inter-tribal commerce and it became important
>> to learn to lie.
>>
>> Brent
>>
>
>
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