On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 2:06:36 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 11 Sep 2012, at 14:52, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> Hi Roger,
>
> On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:36:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
>>
>> Hi Craig Weinberg   
>>
>> The Creator is not created. So no problem. 
>>
>
> Why not just say The Universe is not created. So no problem? 
>
>
> You are right. "God create the universe" can be an explanation, or a 
> progress toward an explanation only if the notion of God in use is 
> conceptually simpler than the universe.
>
> I think Arithmetic (with a big A, it means the whole set of first order 
> arithmetical true propositions, to fix the thing) is like that.
>

I would agree with you Bruno, except that I don't see any possibility of 
Arithmetic needing to feel, but I can easily see why things that feel might 
need to relate to each other arithmetically. Numbers don't itch, but things 
that itch might want to keep track of how much it itches and how long by 
quantifying the experience.

If we ourselves were not alive and having these experiences, I would agree 
that logically Arithmetic is necessary and sufficient to explain a universe 
(just not the universe that we live in).

Craig

Craig 

>
> Bruno
>
>
> What does the idea of an uncreated Creator add that has any explanatory 
> power? Would the idea of a Creator seem obvious if the Bible didn't exist? 
>
> What if you found out that the Bible was actually written by people's 
> demons who mixed truth with lies over centuries to cause confusion, 
> oppression, and cruelty. If I were Satan, why wouldn't I tell people that I 
> am God and make them write a book which causes fear, superstition, and 
> misery (even if the cost is that it has some very good side effects as 
> well)? Not to suggest that you doubt your faith, but logically, the idea of 
> a Bible seems contrary to the purposes of a Creator who endows his 
> creations with direct capacities to make sense of his creation (including 
> themselves). Does he want us to know he exists or doesn't he? If so, why 
> write a bunch of crazy ambiguous scriptures that vary from place to place? 
> If not, why allow such blasphemous confusions to thrive?
>
> Craig
>
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