# Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic

```On 11/4/2012 12:37 AM, meekerdb wrote:
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```On 11/3/2012 11:06 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
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```On 11/3/2012 10:35 PM, meekerdb wrote:
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```On 11/3/2012 8:11 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
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```On 11/3/2012 8:21 PM, meekerdb wrote:
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Horsefeathers <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/horsefeathers>! How is the truth of an arithmetic statement separable from any claim of that truth? What is the possible value of a statement that we can make no claims about?
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You are causing confusion by asking how the truth of a statement is separable from any claim of that truth. But claims and statements are the same thing - so of course they are not seperable. Bruno is saying that the claim/statement is NOT the same as the fact that makes it true. "1+1=2" is a claim; it's the claim that 1+1=2. And that's a true claim; it's true that 1+1=2 whether you claim it or not.
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It is not about me or any other single individual, it is about the mutual agreement on the claim by many individuals, any one of which is irrelevant to the truth of a claim.
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Realism (arithmetical or other) is the position that the claim by EVERY one of which is irrelevant; the truth of the claim depends only whether it corresponds to a fact.
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Brent
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It your claim is true then truth is unknowable,
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I don't see how that follows. When everyone claimed the Earth was flat did that make it unknowable that it was round? If so how did anyone ever come know it?
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as facts become meaningless. Fact require independent verification to exist.
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That's directly contrary to the meaning of 'fact'. I think you want the word 'opinion'.
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Brent

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```Dear Brent,

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Try reasoning about this in a way that is not limited to the assumption that observations are not just what humans do or think about. Reality is not just people populated.
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Onward!

Stephen

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