Hi Stephen P. King  

Science is based on and produces facts.
I don't think you would want to call these facts opinions
unless they referred to global warming.

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 

----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Stephen P. King  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-11-04, 11:37:58 
Subject: Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic 

On 11/4/2012 12:37 AM, meekerdb wrote: 

On 11/3/2012 11:06 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:  
On 11/3/2012 10:35 PM, meekerdb wrote: 

On 11/3/2012 8:11 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:  
On 11/3/2012 8:21 PM, meekerdb wrote: 

  Horsefeathers! How is the truth of an arithmetic statement separable from any 
claim of that truth? What is the possible value of a statement that we can make 
no claims about? 

You are causing confusion by asking how the truth of a statement is separable 
from any claim of that truth. But claims and statements are the same thing - so 
of course they are not seperable.  Bruno is saying that the claim/statement is 
NOT the same as the fact that makes it true.  "1+1=2" is a claim; it's the 
claim that 1+1=2. And that's a true claim; it's true that 1+1=2 whether you 
claim it or not. 

    It is not about me or any other single individual, it is about the mutual 
agreement on the claim by many individuals, any one of which is irrelevant to 
the truth of a claim. 

Realism (arithmetical or other) is the position that the claim by EVERY one of 
which is irrelevant; the truth of the claim depends only whether it corresponds 
to a fact. 


    It your claim is true then truth is unknowable,  

I don't see how that follows.  When everyone claimed the Earth was flat did 
that make it unknowable that it was round?  If so how did anyone ever come know 

as facts become meaningless. Fact require independent verification to exist. 

That's directly contrary to the meaning of 'fact'.  I think you want the word 


Dear Brent, 

    Try reasoning about this in a way that is not limited to the assumption 
that observations are not just what humans do or think about. Reality is not 
just people populated. 



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