On 12 Nov 2012, at 00:33, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 11/11/2012 12:20 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 11 Nov 2012, at 05:00, Russell Standish wrote:
On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 07:02:04PM -0800, meekerdb wrote:
On 11/10/2012 5:44 PM, Russell Standish wrote:
I think the argument is that association with a body (or brain)
is required for intersubjectivity between minds. It is an
But how does the requirement for intersubjectivity follow from
Is it just an anthropic selection argument?
I'm not sure how Bruno argues for it, but my version goes something
1) Self-awareness is a requirement for consciousness
2) We expect to find ourselves in an environment sufficiently rich
complex to support self-aware structures (by Anthropic Principle),
not more complex than necessary (Occams Razor). Sort of like
Einstein's principle "As simple as possible, and no simpler."
3) The simplest environment generating a given level of complexity
one that has arisen as a result of evolution from a much simpler
initial state. This is the evolution in the multiverse observation,
that evolution is the only creative (or information generating)
4) Evolutionary proccesses work with populations, so automatically,
you must have other self-aware entities in your world, and
Note that Bruno does not agree with 1). So I'm not quite sure how he
gets to the anti-solipsist veiwpoint.
By praying, mainly. (grin).
It is not excluded that comp leads to solipsism, especially after
or near death, but even after death, it is not guarantied either.
Solipsism is avoided by the first person plural, when the entire
population of universal beings is multiplied into coherent
continuation. There might be anthropic, or consciousness-tropic
conditions justifying this. I do think that the adding of "Dt"
makes the job (and the "1p", redemolish it for the qualia and
Everett QM illustrate very well the 'contagion of duplications',
making us sharing "normal histories". Empirically, Everett saves
comp from solipsism, but to be "sure", assuming comp, we have to
derive Everett QM from all computations (a concept that Church
Thesis makes utterly mathematically clear, as you can choose any
Turing universal system to be define it mathematically).
Everett's MWI avoids solipsism by defining an observer in
physical terms! Read his paper for yourself to see this.
Of course. He presumes a physical reality, although quite mathematical
(the universal wave). But then comp this work only if that universal
wave function is explained by the machine epistemology/theology, and
the statistics on relative computations.
I love everett, but logically, it is not neede for UDA and AUDA, only
for comparing the comp-physics with the physics extrapolated today by
1) comes from the fact that applying 2), without something like 1)
being true, leads to the Occam catastrophe, namely we should
find ourselves in a very simple boring world with nothing complex
brains in it. Given that we can conceive of ourselves as being born
into a virtual reality (eg matrix style) where the virtual reality
generator renders nothing at all, the occams catastrophe situation
certainly conceivable. Hence my interest at what happens in sensory
deprivation experiments. If you put a newborn baby in one of
may never become conscious (not that that experiment is ethical
It may hard for him/her to become self-conscious, but there are
evidence that ape embryo already dream that they climb in trees, so
I think the new born baby is conscious.
To be conscious does not demand that the entity is conscious of
its consciousness, IMHO.
I agree. This asks for one more reflexive loop. It is the difference
between universal number and Löbian number.
But if you put it in a tank, his consciousness might quite similar
to the disconnected consciousness of a Robinsonian arithmetic. This
is not used in UDA.
Could you elaborate on the disconnected consciousness of a
Robinsonian arithmetic a bit?
It is consciousness without any idea of a self, nor even of a reality.
It can be attained, with a lot of training, in the sleep states, or
with some dissociative drugs, apparently.
The salvia reports, but also the reports of people having been
victim of some trauma might suggest this.
Salvia seems to work by suppressing memory,
It is a deeper disconnection, or dissociation. there is also a feeling
or remembering something which seem obvious in that state, but seems
quasi-contradictory in the normal state.
by making it so that the person under the influense only is aware of
the present moment with no thoughts of previous moments of experience.
Even the awareness of the present moment, or anything related to time
and space can disappear. Sometimes you can keep your whole memory, but
don't consider it as having anything to do with what you are.
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