Dear John,

    Hear Hear!!!! emotions are biases that are imposed on senses, ISTM.

On 1/27/2013 12:09 PM, John Mikes wrote:
Dear Bruno, a brilliant statement.
I use the more polite word *'agnosticism'* for /'ignorance'/.

In our 'absence of knowledge' (how 'bout that?) we try hard to develop some *faith* in a setup explaining /_'us',_/ 'our world', 'whatever happens' (and why not) etc. based on the ever increasing content of our 'model' we hold in our faith for the world over the millennia. Yours is based on arithmetic (numbers), mine on a "beyond model infinite complexity", Roger's on "God"(?) and Richard's on a physical view(???). All poorly developed belief systems, in spite of a technology seemingly so efficient recently. A big almost.
Nobody has 'access' to the *real stuff*, - if there is such at all.
Worldviews are individual mini-solipsisms, personally different.
Science accepts opinions (measured-explained-reasoned questionably) of honest former scientists taught in schools. Religion accepts the Bible(?) etc. sources for answers, - both upon hearsay.
Then come emotions and 'screw-up' the world.

John M

On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 7:05 AM, Bruno Marchal < <>> wrote:

    On 25 Jan 2013, at 16:38, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

    Dear Roger,
    This is the lutheran view. Thatæ„€ fine. I love lutherans. but
    this work as long as you have faith. But once leave the faith,
     people have no guide in very important things and fall in
    primitive cults with a modern facade.  For this reason I advocate
    the scientific study of faith, belief, morals etc.

    I particularly donæ„’ feel comfortable talking about subjects like
    this in this group. But belief, and shared beliefs, is an
    irreductible component of what we call "reality".

    Separating science and religion makes both science and religion
    into pseudo-science and pseudo-religion.

    There is no science, there is only people able to stay calm in
    front of ignorance, I think.


    2013/1/25 Roger Clough <

        I have no conflict being a scientist when I deal with
        science, and being
            a Christian when I deal with the Bible.
        Or with science when I deal with science and with aesthetics
            I visit an art museam. Or go to a concert.
        Or with being a scientist when I deal with the Big Bang
            and being a Christian when I read Genesis. Two different
            accounts, from two different realms, of the same event.
        Science has its own realm of validity in the realm of facts,
            but has no place -not even a foothold-- in the world of
        The difference between a fool and a wise man is in knowing
        the difference.
        - Roger Clough



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