Hi Roger Clough,
On 27 Jan 2013, at 14:03, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
My view that science and religion are mutually exclusive
is certainly not true of catholics, who at least since
Aquinas, believe that truth is reason-based. And even
Luther mellowed a bit in later years against his harsh view
of reason (which opposes faith).
But, having said that, nevertheless I hold with Stephan Jay Gould's
position, that of
"Non-overlapping magisteria"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-overlapping_magisteria
"Non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA) is the view advocated by Stephen
Jay Gould that
science and religion each have "a legitimate magisterium, or domain
of teaching authority," and
these two domains do not overlap.[1] He suggests, with examples,
that "NOMA enjoys
strong and fully explicit support, even from the primary cultural
stereotypes of hard-line
traditionalism" and that it is "a sound position of general
consensus, established by long
struggle among people of goodwill in both magisteria."[2]
Despite this there continues to be disagreement over where the
boundaries between the two magisteria should be.[3]
It just means the humans are perhaps not yet mature enough to use
reason, that is modest hypotheses and sharable rules of reasoning, on
the fundamentals.
Stephan Jay Gould's proposes a statu quo which is made possible by the
fact that science and religion, with the notable exception of the
mystics and the (neo)Platonists, share basically the same naturalism/
weak-materialism. Eventually they differ only by the "fairy tales".
I believe the complete contrary. Theology differs from physics because
it studies other object/subject. And theories can sometimes get
reduced to subtheories of other theories. We have to be open minded,
notably on Platonism.
So if we are inclined to *search* the possible truth, I think we
should remain one and honest in any field.
A religion which fears the scientific method can only be based on lies
or bad faith.
I do think we should respect the fairy tales, but not use them to
prevent progresses on the deep questions.
I do think that the fairy tales can have a lot to teach us, like also
the legends and the great literature, but no prose at all should ever
be taken literally, as this multiplies unnecessary oppositions, and
can only hide the possible truth that the honest people are searching.
Stephan Jay Gould just makes into a principle the abandon of what I
think is the most fundamental field, theology, to the irrationalists,
the obscurantist, the fear sellers, the wishful thinkers, the
terrorful thinkers, etc.
I don't think we have the luxury in the coming times to continue of
being purposefully not serious in the human affairs, and on the
fundamental possibilities.
With comp, well understood, the human and the machine, are immune (in
the ideal case) to reductionism, and neoplatonism gives a tremendous
importance to the person, and the listening to person (whatever are
their clothes or bodies). They remains an essential gap on which human
can test different colors and things.
But ceasing to search in that field after the discovery-reapparition
of the universal machine, would be like, to me, deciding to abandon
space exploration, or closing the Hubble telescope, etc.
If you don't listen to the machines, you will not succeed in
convincing them about any of your ideas.
Bruno
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-27, 07:05:33
Subject: Re: Facts vs values
On 25 Jan 2013, at 16:38, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
Dear Roger,
This is the lutheran view. That磗 fine. I love lutherans. but this
work as long as you have faith. But once leave the faith, people
have no guide in very important things and fall in primitive cults
with a modern facade. For this reason I advocate the scientific
study of faith, belief, morals etc.
I particularly don磘 feel comfortable talking about subjects like
this in this group. But belief, and shared beliefs, is an
irreductible component of what we call "reality".
Separating science and religion makes both science and religion into
pseudo-science and pseudo-religion.
There is no science, there is only people able to stay calm in front
of ignorance, I think.
Bruno
2013/1/25 Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net>
I have no conflict being a scientist when I deal with science, and
being
a Christian when I deal with the Bible.
Or with science when I deal with science and with aesthetics when
I visit an art museam. Or go to a concert.
Or with being a scientist when I deal with the Big Bang
and being a Christian when I read Genesis. Two different
accounts, from two different realms, of the same event.
Science has its own realm of validity in the realm of facts,
but has no place -not even a foothold-- in the world of values.
The difference between a fool and a wise man is in knowing the
difference.
- Roger Clough
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