On 27 Jan 2013, at 19:53, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

Bruno,
You sill say interesting things even in a thread that has fallen deep in the boring hole of Reductio at Hitlerum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum



Well ... Thanks :)

Actually, it happens that I appreciate rather well Leo Strauss (who coined "Reductio ad Hitlerum").

Bruno




2013/1/27 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>

On 25 Jan 2013, at 13:14, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi John Clark,

Other than Luther's ancient views on astronomy, and only with regard to salvation or damnation, as a modern Lutheran I agree with everything Luther said, although I might temper down his invective, which was intended for the Pope.
In that spirit, everything Luther said was correct and still is.

Outside of science, true stupidity is to rely only on reason.

The amazing thing is that if you accept the classical theory of knowledge (that is:

know p   ->   p
know p   ->   know know p
know (p - > q)   ->   (know p -> know q)

+ the rule p/know p, + classical logic

then we can prove that some machines (the correct and Löbian one) already *know* that it is stupid to rely only on reason.

There are reasons why reason is not enough.

It is the beauty and glory of reason: it can see its own limitations.

Machines are born with a form of necessary faith and necessary intuition.

Bruno




Faith opens the inner eye, which science wants to blind.
So it is said that with faith, you have everything, without faith
you have nothing.


----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Alberto G. Corona
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-24, 10:48:16
Subject: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

I though that, this was not a site for enhancing the self爀steem爋 f self-proclaimed rationalists neither an insult-you-an-infidel theraphy group.�


2013/1/24 John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com>
I sincerely hope that nobody believes I'm picking on Catholics because Protestant "thinking" is every bit as brain dead dumb as the Pope's. Martin Luther knew perfectly well that religious ideas cannot survive the slightest amount of rational analysis without completely falling apart, but his solution to that problem was not to get better ideas but to simply insist that people check their brain at the door before they start to think about God; here are some of the noises that particular bipedal hominid made with his mouth, although I think the noises made from the other end of Luther's gastrointestinal tract may have contain more wisdom, at least they might have disclosed some evidence on how the human digestive system works:�

牋牋�
揜eason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God�

"Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of reason."

"Reason should be destroyed in all Christians."

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and know nothing but the word of God."

"Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets."

"We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand years the world did not exist."

"People gave ear to an upstart astrologer [Copernicus] who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon.� This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth."


After this contemptible performance, after flat out praising the virtues of stupidity and unapologetically trying to turn everybody into imbeciles I don't see how anyone could call themselves a Lutheran or a Protestant or even a Christian without intense embarrassment.

燡ohn K Clark牋


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