On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On 2/7/2013 3:52 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes >>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>> >>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Do you believe that your fellow human beings have minds? If so why? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Yes (weakly). >>>>> >>>> >>>> You believe that only weakly?! Do you really think there is a 49% >>>> chance that you are the only conscious being in the universe? >>>> >>> >>> I don't know how to assign a probability to that. I guess I believe >>> it's in ]0.5, 1] because I would bet on it, but that's all I can say. >>> >>> I say weakly because the only thing I have to back this belief is an >>> heuristic, which I find to be a weaker form of approximating the truth than >>> mathematical proof or experimental confirmation. >>> >>> >>>> By the way, I don't believe other people have minds when they are >>>> sleeping or under anesthesia or dead because when they are in those states >>>> they don't behave very intelligently. >>>> >>> >>> But that is because you believe that intelligence == mind. I don't. >>> Certain experiences that you can do on yourself might make you doubt that >>> belief, but I don't know of any way to convince you except suggesting that >>> you do those experiences. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> > Occam's razor. If I'm the only human being with a mind, then, for >>>>> some mysterious reason, there are two types of human beings: me (with a >>>>> mind) and the others (zombies). So heuristically I'm inclined to believe >>>>> that all human beings have a mind, >>>>> >>>> >>>> OK, but if you also believe in Darwin's theory of Evolution then you >>>> must also believe that consciousness MUST be a byproduct of intelligence >>>> because Evolution can't directly see consciousness any better than we can >>>> and so cannot select for it, and yet you and probably other people are >>>> conscious. Thus you must also believe that if a computer is intelligent >>>> then it is conscious. Then you must also believe that intelligence == mind. >>>> >>> >>> You are begging the question. You're assuming, to begin with, that >>> intelligence == mind and then you claim to prove that intelligence == mind. >>> >>> By the way, for evolution to generate consciousness there has to exist >>> a gradient to climb. Unless the evolutionary process just stumbles into >>> consciousness, but in that case it is not a valid theory of it's origin. So >>> you are implicitly assuming that there is some measure of consciousness, >>> where you can say that entity A is more conscious than entity B. What would >>> that even mean? My cat seems conscious to me (but I can't know for sure). >>> Is he less conscious than me? Well I know stuff that he doesn't, but he >>> also knows stuff that I don't -- for example he knows how it feels to be a >>> cat. >>> >>> >>> But that doesn't mean there's something magic about being a cat. I >>> think it might be possible to change your brain, and your sensory organs, >>> so that it implemented consciousness very similar to a cat's (it couldn't >>> be exact because you'd need a cat's body for that). Of course it wouldn't >>> be Telmo Menezes any more. >>> >> >> I agree that this might be possible. But the paradox then is the >> following: to make me feel like a cat you have to strip me of my memories >> (read/write access), so when I'm back from the experience I won't remember >> it. In fact I turned into a cat for a while and then back to Telmo Menezes. >> Telmo Menezes still knows nothing about being a cat. >> > > Well, while going from Telmo to the cat, you're rigth that Telmo memories > should be erased, the inverse is not true. Why couldn't you be back as > Telmo + the memories of having been a cat ? > Hi Quentin, Because that would require that I had write-only access to my human memories while being a cat. I don't think that's possible. For example, to store the memories on how a cat feels about climbing a tree, I would have to access my human representation of a tree to connect the memories to it, but accessing my human representation of a tree would spoil my cat experience. > > Regards, > Quentin > > >> >>> >>> And yes I think there are degrees and kinds of consciousness and that a >>> cat's consciousness differs in both respects. There's consciousness of >>> being an individual and of being located in 3-space and in time. You and >>> the cat have both of those (whereas a Mars rover only has the latter). But >>> there's language and narrative memory that you have and the cat doesn't. >>> There's reflective thought,"I'm Telmo and I'm thinking about myself and >>> where I fit in the world". The cat probably doesn't have this because it's >>> not social - but a dog might. >>> >> >> But is this really a case of "degrees of consciousness" or is it just the >> general property of "being conscious" instantiated in different contexts? >> The fact that you believe you can turn me into a cat seems to indicate that >> ultimately you believe that consciousness is all the same. >> >> >>> >>> Brent >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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