2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> > > > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> >> >> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2/7/2013 3:52 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes < >>>>>>> te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Do you believe that your fellow human beings have minds? If so >>>>>>>>> why? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Yes (weakly). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You believe that only weakly?! Do you really think there is a 49% >>>>>>> chance that you are the only conscious being in the universe? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know how to assign a probability to that. I guess I believe >>>>>> it's in ]0.5, 1] because I would bet on it, but that's all I can say. >>>>>> >>>>>> I say weakly because the only thing I have to back this belief is >>>>>> an heuristic, which I find to be a weaker form of approximating the truth >>>>>> than mathematical proof or experimental confirmation. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> By the way, I don't believe other people have minds when they are >>>>>>> sleeping or under anesthesia or dead because when they are in those >>>>>>> states >>>>>>> they don't behave very intelligently. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> But that is because you believe that intelligence == mind. I don't. >>>>>> Certain experiences that you can do on yourself might make you doubt that >>>>>> belief, but I don't know of any way to convince you except suggesting >>>>>> that >>>>>> you do those experiences. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Occam's razor. If I'm the only human being with a mind, then, >>>>>>>> for some mysterious reason, there are two types of human beings: me >>>>>>>> (with a >>>>>>>> mind) and the others (zombies). So heuristically I'm inclined to >>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>> that all human beings have a mind, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK, but if you also believe in Darwin's theory of Evolution then you >>>>>>> must also believe that consciousness MUST be a byproduct of intelligence >>>>>>> because Evolution can't directly see consciousness any better than we >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> and so cannot select for it, and yet you and probably other people are >>>>>>> conscious. Thus you must also believe that if a computer is intelligent >>>>>>> then it is conscious. Then you must also believe that intelligence == >>>>>>> mind. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You are begging the question. You're assuming, to begin with, that >>>>>> intelligence == mind and then you claim to prove that intelligence == >>>>>> mind. >>>>>> >>>>>> By the way, for evolution to generate consciousness there has to >>>>>> exist a gradient to climb. Unless the evolutionary process just stumbles >>>>>> into consciousness, but in that case it is not a valid theory of it's >>>>>> origin. So you are implicitly assuming that there is some measure of >>>>>> consciousness, where you can say that entity A is more conscious than >>>>>> entity B. What would that even mean? My cat seems conscious to me (but I >>>>>> can't know for sure). Is he less conscious than me? Well I know stuff >>>>>> that >>>>>> he doesn't, but he also knows stuff that I don't -- for example he knows >>>>>> how it feels to be a cat. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> But that doesn't mean there's something magic about being a cat. I >>>>>> think it might be possible to change your brain, and your sensory organs, >>>>>> so that it implemented consciousness very similar to a cat's (it couldn't >>>>>> be exact because you'd need a cat's body for that). Of course it >>>>>> wouldn't >>>>>> be Telmo Menezes any more. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I agree that this might be possible. But the paradox then is the >>>>> following: to make me feel like a cat you have to strip me of my memories >>>>> (read/write access), so when I'm back from the experience I won't remember >>>>> it. In fact I turned into a cat for a while and then back to Telmo >>>>> Menezes. >>>>> Telmo Menezes still knows nothing about being a cat. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Well, while going from Telmo to the cat, you're rigth that Telmo >>>> memories should be erased, the inverse is not true. Why couldn't you be >>>> back as Telmo + the memories of having been a cat ? >>>> >>> >>> Hi Quentin, >>> >>> Because that would require that I had write-only access to my human >>> memories while being a cat. I don't think that's possible. >>> >> >> Why not ?? You put forward a technical problem on a thought experiment >> which have if you go that way a bigger technical problem in the first >> place... so your objection is totally irrelevant, we are in a thought >> experiment, in that setting, if we can conceive transferring consciousnes >> of the cat, then there is no reason we can't imagine you remember being a >> cat after the experiment. I'll agree to talk technical problems the day we >> would have the first insight of how to really do it... before, it is just >> premature to use technical arguments. >> > > Fair enough, maybe it's my CS bias. But I'm still not convinced this is a > purely technical issue. Can you conceive of any system that stores > information in some coherent way that you can write to without reading? >
Well, yes... with computer you could imagine doing just that... so why not ? Also, the fact that you can't imagine a solution yourself, doesn't mean there isn't one, lack of imagination is also not an argument. Regards, Quentin > > >> >> Regards, >> Quentin >> >> >>> For example, to store the memories on how a cat feels about climbing a >>> tree, I would have to access my human representation of a tree to connect >>> the memories to it, but accessing my human representation of a tree would >>> spoil my cat experience. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Quentin >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And yes I think there are degrees and kinds of consciousness and that >>>>>> a cat's consciousness differs in both respects. There's consciousness of >>>>>> being an individual and of being located in 3-space and in time. You and >>>>>> the cat have both of those (whereas a Mars rover only has the latter). >>>>>> But >>>>>> there's language and narrative memory that you have and the cat doesn't. >>>>>> There's reflective thought,"I'm Telmo and I'm thinking about myself and >>>>>> where I fit in the world". The cat probably doesn't have this because >>>>>> it's >>>>>> not social - but a dog might. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But is this really a case of "degrees of consciousness" or is it just >>>>> the general property of "being conscious" instantiated in different >>>>> contexts? The fact that you believe you can turn me into a cat seems to >>>>> indicate that ultimately you believe that consciousness is all the same. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Brent >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com >>>>>> . >>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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