On 10 Jul 2013, at 21:23, meekerdb wrote:

On 7/10/2013 2:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 09 Jul 2013, at 20:37, John Clark wrote:

On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

> "atheism" is different in America and in Europa, although I have realized now that some atheists in America might be similar, but not Hitchens. Many people confuse agnosticism and atheism.

1) A atheist is someone who dismisses the idea of God, although some don't have the courage to also dismiss the word G-O-D.

Atheists differ on this. Some indeed dismiss the idea of God, and dismiss as much Hindhuism and Christianism, Aristotle Gods and Platonic Gods. But then they believ in Matter, the "thrid God" of Aristotle. But they want you to believe it is not a God, and seems unable to understand that IF everything comes from primitive matter, it does play the role usually attributed to God. No one has ever seen primitive matter, nor explain how it proceeds, etc. Primitive matter is an etraoplation of the SENSES to number relations inferred from experiences.

That's just your rhetoric, Bruno. Neither you nor anyone else thinks that primitive matter plays the role usually attributed to the theist God.

It is not my rethoric, it is a remind that science has not yet (if ever) decided between Plato and Aristotle, and some scientist confuse their atheists beliefs with scientific assertion.




No one suggests we worship matter or look to matter for ethical rules. There are no churches collecting donations for matter. There are no dogmas of matter written on stone tablets.

Pseudo-religions can take many shapes.



Those unnamed physicists that you keep accusing of holding the primitivity of matter as dogma conduct research to find something more primitive and in fact construct theories in which matter is reduced to abstractions like a ray in a Hilbert space.

That are wonderful discoveries. No problem if they don't use that to mock attempts to solve the mind-body problem. Which some atheists scientist do.










2) Christopher Hitchens said "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence"

Very good. So we can right at the start dismiss the God "Matter".

There's overwhelming evidence for matter. There's nothing in physics that requires it to be primitive

Good. So let us search the primitive notion, and I argued that with comp we can take any Turing complete theory.




or to be worshiped.

OK.

Bruno






Brent
The subsiding of faith might have been foreseeable as soon as the newly remapped sky left no plausible site for heaven. But people are good at living with contradictions, just so long as their self- importance isn't directly insulted.
    --- Fredrick Crews, "Saving Us from Darwin"

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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