From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 12:01 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

 

 

On 24 Aug 2013, at 17:57, Quentin Anciaux wrote:





 

 

2013/8/24 John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, Chris de Morsella <cdemorse...@yahoo.com>
wrote

>>> The computer requires a substrate in which to operate upon -- the CPU
chips for example are what our computers operate on. I know of no computer
that does not require this external structured environment  

>> The human requires a substrate in which to operate upon -- the brain for
example is what our human minds  operate on. I know of no human that does
not require this external structured environment.   

 

> Yes. and?

And you tell me, those are your ideas not mine. I don't see the relevance
but I thought you did. 

>>> Every computer in existence requires external enabling hardware.

>>Every human in existence requires external enabling hardware.

 

> Yes but humans are not universal computing machines,

If we're not universal then we are provincial computing machines. Do you
really think this strengthens your case concerning the superiority of
humans?   

> if indeed we are machines. 

We are either cuckoo clocks or roulette wheels, take your pick.  

 

> Do we know enough about how our brains work and are structured to the
level that we would need to in order to be able to answer that question with
any degree of certainty? 

Yes absolutely! I can say with no fear of contradiction that things in the
brain happen for a reason or they do not happen for a reason.

> I was referring to the hypothesized deterministic universe, in which
everything that has happened can be computed from the initial state and has
followed on from that original set of conditions

Everything in modern physics and mathematics says that determinism is false,


 

That's wrong, MWI is deterministic... and again, deterministic and
computable are two different thing.

 

Right. For example arithmetical truth is deterministic, but only a little
part of arithmetical truth is computable. 

 

Also, we are at least Turing universal. Comp is that we are not more than
Turing universal. I guess you agree.

 

A mathematical, model or theoretical system can be internally deterministic
perhaps (though to some degree perhaps self-referential). I am not so
certain we can say the same thing about the outcomes produced by the wet
messy chemistry of our brains.

What happens to a universal Turing machine, if the tape itself is being
written by some other process, and this I believe often goes on in the
brain; "generated code" is increasingly a part of modern software as well
and is becoming increasingly complex and doing more than just spitting out
boilerplate code or writing out models of some entity based on some schema
it knows how to interpret (though this is much of what generated code does)
I am thinking more along the lines of genetic algorithms etc. 

When the instruction set itself is mutable and is evolving based on the
outcomes of other parallel processes can determinacy still be said to be
occurring - i.e. when what is on the tape itself is unknowable a priori to
the execution instance and is being written (just in time) based on other
processes which themselves may depend on instruction sets that are being
dynamically produced.

In practical terms the problem mushrooms out and becomes unsolvable; I
suspect you feel that it still be theoretically determined that the outcome
must result from the initial state. and I am interested in hearing how. I am
not really grasping any position here; more interested in experiencing how
my own positions and thinking evolves as a result of listening and -
attempting to digest - that which is being spoken of.

Can a system, in which a significant portion of its instructions are unknown
ahead of time and that are dynamically generated based on some run time
environment and the interactions of many various and parallel executing
processes with this external environment, can such a system be said to be
deterministic?

Cheers,

-Chris

 

 

Bruno

 

 





 

Quentin

 

but who cares, we were talking about intelligence and biological minds and
computer minds; what does the truth of falsehood of determinism have to do
with the price of eggs?   

  John K Clark

 

 

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All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. 

 

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

 

 

 

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