Hi Chris - I also do not "KNOW" whether or not I really do have "free will". But if I do not have "free will" evolution has seen fit to evolve a very expensive - in evolutionary terms - illusion of "free will" in me (it must consume a lot of neural activity in order to develop the illusion in the first instance and then to maintain it)
Even if it is an illusion it must be a very important one for our evolutionary fitness; otherwise it would have been selected against. The sensation of having "free will" must provide us with some advantage - even if it is an illusion in reality (which no one has established - as far as I can tell - though some certainly believe they have established it). To argue that "free will", "self-awareness" etc. are just noise, of no real value or consequence goes against evolution. Evolution doesn't work like that. Unless it can be clearly shown that these qualia are inevitable by-products of some other evolutionarily vital brain function - which begs the question why? - then the reductionists amongst us are left having to explain why evolution went through so much trouble to provide us with this most perfect illusion? Cheers, -Chris D From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of chris peck Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 8:12 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? Hi Chris >> if in the end it is an infinitely regressing hall of mirrors, a cosmic illusion - why the elaborate and evolutionarily expensive (multiple levels of adaption) masquerade ball in which we all participate? As far as I can tell there is no cosmic illusion of free will. I'm my opinion whether we have free will or not is under-determined by what we see and experience, in a similar way that the way the world looks under-determines a heliocentric or geocentric astronomy. How would it look if the sun orbited the earth? The sun would move across the sky just as it would if the earth orbited the sun. How would it feel if the determinists/indeterminists were right and we didn't have free will. Exactly as things actually feel. The case is under-determined. However, free will is a pillar of western culture and theology. It underpins our justice system because it is believed that responsibility depends upon actions being undertaken freely. It underpins our theology, freewill being at the basis of the Fall in Genesis; not to mention underpinning the idea of sin. So from the get go people , even those who are not that religious, grow up absorbing the idea of free will. This is where the strong unwillingness to abandon it comes from. It isn't a cosmic illusion, it is an artifact of cultural history. Not all cultures are underpinned by the idea of free will. Buddhist societies will to varying degrees find the concept very alien. I very much doubt that people who have grown up in those cultures are possessed of this 'cosmic illusion', yet their day to day phenomenology will be more or less the same as yours or mine. All the best _____ From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 12:37:48 -0700 Exactly - do you think I am trying to pretend that I am deterministic within my own self? I accept that my experience of consciousness is a post facto artifact of my mind, which has already produced and rendered the experience I am just experiencing in perhaps its entirety. And all my decisions and free will could be the result of a grand illusion, but even if this is so one has to - if one is curious about the nature of things - ask why the elaborate charade? Why has evolution invested so much energy in erecting such a perfect rendition of this facsimile of free will that is the common sense experience that we all experience within ourselves? Seems like a lot of effort for nothing; which is why I question your reductionist view of this - even if in the end it is an infinitely regressing hall of mirrors, a cosmic illusion - why the elaborate and evolutionarily expensive (multiple levels of adaption) masquerade ball in which we all participate? Seems a bit much for nothing. -Chris From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 12:17 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Chris de Morsella <[email protected]> wrote: > What happens to a universal Turing machine, if the tape itself is being written by some other process The same thing that happens to you when you get pushed around by the external environment. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
