On 9/21/2013 6:36 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:

In fact the chair the mind sees is quite often a low fidelity rendition of the chair -- with by far most sense data discarded along the way, especially if it is on the periphery of the mind's current focus. The "chair", in the mind, is rendered only as well as it need be in order for the mind to experience it's 3d frame of reference and the world aligned around it in a manner with the best evolutionary fitness. The chair the mind "sees" is subject to the mind's current needs and the chair's relative centrality with respect to those shifting priorities. The mind is a most masterful reification engine.

Because the mind is so involved in constructing the "chair" or at least our perception of it -- in any given moment -- and is involved at every step along the way of rendition, it must have a pretty vast inventory of "chair" models (and all the underlying abstract modeling such as edge rendering, shape skinning/coloring etc. that are required in order to render the chair) in its repertoire. And the chair we see is always the indirect rendition presented to us by our minds; our minds are always manufacturing the reality we perceive. Try to set the mind aside; it is harder than it sounds. The mind is always filtering our experienced reality as actual reality impinges on us and interacts with our own inner selves to generate our own individual perception... or esthetic.


I agree. It takes effort and practice to see a chair not as a chair but as patches of light and color as you do if you're making a painting of a chair. And if it's not important to you, your brain may just note "chair" with almost no specifics at all. But this degree of specificity isn't so different in a dream or in imagination where a chair may considered in detail (e.g. if you're designing a chair) or very sketchily if it's just background furniture.

Brent

Thus a vision of the chair should be able to be generated in a subject's mind by a proper stimulation of critical brain areas (obviously would need to be a lot more fine grained than anything we can do with our current crude tool set... and perhaps it is a good thing too -- IMO -- for re-writing memory, opens all kind of scary Orwellian doors)

-Chris

*From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *meekerdb
*Sent:* Saturday, September 21, 2013 2:19 PM
*To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
*Subject:* Re: How PIP solves the hard problem of consciousness

On 9/21/2013 9:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

        No, memories I consider direct experiences, since they require only 
that we are
        conscious. Indirect experiences would be experiences which we can only 
detect
        using our body's sense organs. Indirect experiences are 3p, thus they 
are bodies
        in space, direct experiences are 1p, so they can contain any 
combination of
        imagined forms, thoughts, feelings, etc.


    That is not enough clear for me. I can't figure out what you mean by 
indirect
    experience. I guess you mean experience (1p) occurring when you think about 
a theory
    (like there is something on the other side of the moon). That kind of 
things can mix
    a lot first and first person plural aspects.
    Keep also in mind that 'bodies in space' are first person plural notion, 
they are
    not 3p.


No he means 'indirect' because you could experience the same vision by having your optic nerve properly stimulated. So when you 'see a chair' that is indirect - it is an interpretation of what your optic nerve is doing.

Brent

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