On 05 Oct 2013, at 19:55, John Clark wrote:
On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
> you have agreed that all "bruno marchal" are the original one (a
case where Leibniz identity rule fails,
If you're talking about Leibniz Identity of indiscernibles it most
certainly has NOT failed.
I was talking on the rule:
a = b
a = c
entails that b = c
The M-guy is the H-guy (the M-guy remembers having been the H-guy)
The W-guy is the H-guy (the W-guy remembers having been the H-guy)
But the M-guy is not the W-guy (in the sense that the M-guy will not
remember having been the W-guy, and reciprocally).
The rest are unconvincing rhetorical tricks, already answered, and
which, btw, can be done for the quantum indeterminacy, as many people
showed to you. Each time we talk about the prediction the "he" refer
to the guy in Helsinki before the duplication, after the duplication,
we mention if we talk of the guy in M or in W, or of both, and look at
their individual confirmation or refutation of their prediction done
in Helsinki. We just look at diaries, and I have made those things
clear, but you talk like if you don't try to understand.
There is nothing controversial, and you fake misunderstanding of the
most easy part of the reasoning.
Not sure what is your agenda, but it is clear that you are not
interested in learning.
Bruno
If the original and the copy are identical then exchanging there
position will not make a observable difference to a outside observer
nor to the original nor to the copy. So Leibniz would conclude that
if objectively it makes no difference and subjectively it makes no
difference then exchanging the position of the original and the copy
just plain makes no difference.
> If in Helsinki [he] predicted {W & M} [blah blah]
SEE! Bruno Marchal is incapable of expressing ideas without
pronouns with no referent. Was "he" making a prediction about
the future of Bruno Marchal or about the future of Bruno Marchal the
Helsinki Man? If it's about Bruno Marchal then the correct
prediction would be Helsinki Moscow and Washington, if it's about
Bruno Marchal the Helsinki Man the correct prediction can only be
Helsinki. But who cares about predictions?
> the "bruno marchal" in W will see that his prediction failed, as
[he] must admit that [he] is not seeing M.
But "he" must admit "he" is NOT the only Bruno Marchal because "he"
HAS BEEN DUPLICATED! Bruno Marchal admits that "he" has been
duplicated but still insists on referring to "he" as if there were
still only one, and that's what makes the whole thing incoherent.
And what on earth does a prediction, correct or incorrect, have to
do with a feeling of self anyway?
>>> and so the immediate result of the self-localization cannot be
predicted by the guy in Helsinki.
>> Without using personal pronouns please tell John K Clark the
precise question to ask "the guy in Helsinki" that has a
indeterminate answer, and just as important please make clear
exactly who Bruno Marchal is asking the question to.
> The question is "what do [you] expect to live or feel, as a comp
believer"
SEE! Bruno Marchal just can't stop using those damn pronouns.
> More precisely, it concerns the seeing of the cities involved: do
[you] expect W, M, both, etc.
SEE! Bruno Marchal just can't stop using those damn pronouns.
> The question is used in the traditional sense of "you", before the
duplication.
And that is exactly the problem, traditionally duplicating chambers
do not exist so the poor little pronoun "you" doesn't have to worry
about the complications such machines generate, but to really study
this issue and move into the big leagues Bruno Marchal must worry
about them.
> The guy reason in comp, and knows already many things: that he
will survive (you have agreed on that), that he will not feel the
split
OK, so far so good the use of "he" is causing no problems.
> that he will see only city
WHO THE HELL IS "HE"??
John K Clark
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