On 05 Oct 2013, at 19:55, John Clark wrote:

On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

> you have agreed that all "bruno marchal" are the original one (a case where Leibniz identity rule fails,

If you're talking about Leibniz Identity of indiscernibles it most certainly has NOT failed.

I was talking on the rule:

a = b
a = c
entails that b = c

The M-guy is the H-guy  (the M-guy remembers having been the H-guy)
The W-guy is the H-guy  (the W-guy  remembers having been the H-guy)
But the M-guy is not the W-guy (in the sense that the M-guy will not remember having been the W-guy, and reciprocally).

The rest are unconvincing rhetorical tricks, already answered, and which, btw, can be done for the quantum indeterminacy, as many people showed to you. Each time we talk about the prediction the "he" refer to the guy in Helsinki before the duplication, after the duplication, we mention if we talk of the guy in M or in W, or of both, and look at their individual confirmation or refutation of their prediction done in Helsinki. We just look at diaries, and I have made those things clear, but you talk like if you don't try to understand.

There is nothing controversial, and you fake misunderstanding of the most easy part of the reasoning. Not sure what is your agenda, but it is clear that you are not interested in learning.


Bruno




If the original and the copy are identical then exchanging there position will not make a observable difference to a outside observer nor to the original nor to the copy. So Leibniz would conclude that if objectively it makes no difference and subjectively it makes no difference then exchanging the position of the original and the copy just plain makes no difference.

> If in Helsinki [he] predicted {W & M} [blah blah]

SEE! Bruno Marchal is incapable of expressing ideas without pronouns with no referent. Was "he" making a prediction about the future of Bruno Marchal or about the future of Bruno Marchal the Helsinki Man? If it's about Bruno Marchal then the correct prediction would be Helsinki Moscow and Washington, if it's about Bruno Marchal the Helsinki Man the correct prediction can only be Helsinki. But who cares about predictions?

> the "bruno marchal" in W will see that his prediction failed, as [he] must admit that [he] is not seeing M.

But "he" must admit "he" is NOT the only Bruno Marchal because "he" HAS BEEN DUPLICATED! Bruno Marchal admits that "he" has been duplicated but still insists on referring to "he" as if there were still only one, and that's what makes the whole thing incoherent. And what on earth does a prediction, correct or incorrect, have to do with a feeling of self anyway?

>>> and so the immediate result of the self-localization cannot be predicted by the guy in Helsinki.

>> Without using personal pronouns please tell John K Clark the precise question to ask "the guy in Helsinki" that has a indeterminate answer, and just as important please make clear exactly who Bruno Marchal is asking the question to.

> The question is "what do [you] expect to live or feel, as a comp believer"

SEE!  Bruno Marchal just can't stop using those damn pronouns.

> More precisely, it concerns the seeing of the cities involved: do [you] expect W, M, both, etc.

SEE!  Bruno Marchal just can't stop using those damn pronouns.

> The question is used in the traditional sense of "you", before the duplication.

And that is exactly the problem, traditionally duplicating chambers do not exist so the poor little pronoun "you" doesn't have to worry about the complications such machines generate, but to really study this issue and move into the big leagues Bruno Marchal must worry about them.

> The guy reason in comp, and knows already many things: that he will survive (you have agreed on that), that he will not feel the split

OK, so far so good the use of "he" is  causing no problems.

> that he will see only city

WHO THE HELL IS "HE"??

  John K Clark






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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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